Author Topic: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE  (Read 30586 times)

Kristenann

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2014, 03:31:32 pm »
So far Asil and Kara's story is my favorite, I love hearing from Asil's Pov the best next to Mercy's. Ben's story comes a close second, the abuse as a child is horrible especially from the people who were suppose to love and protect him above all others. Then he becomes a werewolf and in a way was in another abusive cycle. There's something I don't get though, a dominant werewolf has instincts to protect those in his pack weaker than him, like subs and omegas, but many werewolves who were suppose to be protected were abused. There's hints to Honey and Sage's past, there is also the newest wolf (Jack?) that have been abused, and then there's the fact that when Mercy and Bran were talking about what pack Kara would be safe in, without anyone abusing her, there was only maybe 20 out of 100 or so alphas who could be trusted with a child. I know my numbers aren't completely correct but I think they're close, I'm just wondering is it the wolf part that can't be trusted or the man?

Janilee

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2014, 03:45:38 pm »
That is a very interesting question.
 

Kyria

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2014, 08:24:59 pm »
I think it varies by situation.  For instance, with new wolves, Kara is in danger when they see her as a wolf because she is a rival/potential rival.  With Mercy, it's a combination of human resentment (ie, Leah) and wolf distaste for coyotes (ie, some of Adam's Pack). 
With Anna, it was a combination of things.  A sociopath turned werewolf, an old wolf losing control (in both her human and wolf forms, I think), and her mate who had a need to protect his mate more than anyone else. 

In other abuse cycles, it could be a primarily human thing (ie, an Alpha raised in a time period when men were expected to dominate women, clashing with a woman raised to expect equal treatment, and the wolf merely lends violence/animalistic behavior to the situation) or a primarily wolf thing (ie, a female too closely ranked to the wolf, so the wolf wants to fight her all the time, or else mate with her, and the human isn't quite controlled enough to keep himself from doing so).  Just because unmated females have been nominally ranked at the bottom of the pack doesn't mean that this is an easy or comfortable position for them to hold when they would otherwise be high-ranked.

I'd be interested in seeing the new submissive's personal history prior to his becoming a wolf.  Perhaps, like Ben, he had an abusive history prior to being changed, which may have been enough to make him wary of authority figures and uneasy being part of a pack until he found an especially dominant and trustworthy Alpha that he could learn to trust (I assume he's sticking to the Columbia Basin Pack long-term?  He seems happy there)

Adam points out to Ben that part of being highly dominant has to do with having others believe that he will protect them, and you would think that the more abusive wolves would be lower ranking as a result, but if you look at the highest ranking nasties, they tend to direct their energies in selective directions (the Beast, whatever his name was, from France, is a notable exception).  So I guess maybe you'd get a sort of werewolf Stockholm Syndrome  "I'm not the target of the violence (this time), therefore I am being protected," combined with the 'leader's' loyalty to the unit, despite his mistreatment of individuals, and that makes up this "willingness to protect" angle for the nastier Alphas.  (And between the Cornicks and their own Packs, it seems that most of them, the Beast being an exception once again, don't last too terribly long anyway)

Pee Wee

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2014, 11:40:30 pm »

....Adam points out to Ben that part of being highly dominant has to do with having others believe that he will protect them, .....

I think, this is a good point of finding out about the dominance: it is situational and also it is given. The problem is

Quote
In other abuse cycles, it could be a primarily human thing (ie, an Alpha raised in a time period when men were expected to dominate women, clashing with a woman raised to expect equal treatment, and the wolf merely lends violence/animalistic behavior to the situation) or a primarily wolf thing (ie, a female too closely ranked to the wolf, so the wolf wants to fight her all the time, or else mate with her, and the human isn't quite controlled enough to keep himself from doing so).  Just because unmated females have been nominally ranked at the bottom of the pack doesn't mean that this is an easy or comfortable position for them to hold when they would otherwise be high-ranked.

The more the real high ranked are reinforced in their position the less they have to show out the dominance - to hit and be nastie is also helpless about the situation.
We read about Mercy which learned by raising at Brans pack to handle showing submissive  and winning her own games.
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Patti L.

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2014, 04:33:49 pm »
On a separate note, in "Hollow", I noticed we're free of Christie, apparently, woo hoo!  And Zach seems to have settled in, which is good.  I'm wondering if the walking stick is still hanging around Mercy, after its stint with Coyote, and seemingly not wanting to stay with Lugh's son.
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Itsy-Cat

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2014, 11:56:17 pm »
On a separate note, in "Hollow", I noticed we're free of Christie, apparently, woo hoo!  And Zach seems to have settled in, which is good.  I'm wondering if the walking stick is still hanging around Mercy, after its stint with Coyote, and seemingly not wanting to stay with Lugh's son.

I suspect the walking stick is still hanging around Mercy, as I doubt it would show up at the end of Night Broken and then just disappear forever, but it does seem to mostly show up when it feels like it and/or Mercy needs it, and I guess she didn't need it in Hollow? And there was that whole thing where, at first, it was happy to go with Beauclaire, but then it got rejected and wasn't so happy about it.
I do wonder how Beauclaire will react to the walking stick refusing to stay with him. Will he accept it, having finally decided to listen and accept the story Mercy told him about it? Or will he keep showing up to take it back?
 Or... I wonder if perhaps he didn't want it for himself and gave it to his daughter? Since he thought of it as a minor artifact, not important enough to the Gray Lord, but important personally. And maybe the walking stick left after that because it prefers hanging around people who are likely to go on interesting adventures?



I'm not so sure that they're really free of Christy though. Just because she wasn't in Hollow doesn't mean she might not show up again, though hopefully if she does, she won't be anywhere near as annoying as she was in Night Broken, both because she won't be living at Mercy and Adam's house, and because Mercy finally taught her not to mess with her with that blue dye thing.  >D



Yeah, to me it sounds like Sage wasn't a problem herself so much as she had a hard time fitting into her pack due to their behavior.  Whether or not she had a history of being abused, I suspect she wasn't the issue so much as removing her from the situation was the simplest solution.

With Sage, according to Asil, in Cry Wolf, she was actually assaulted before going to Aspen Creek. (Cry Wolf pg 175; 'Sage dug her fingers into the dirt, doubtless reliving her own brutal assault, which had resulted in her seeking sanctuary here in Aspen Creek a few years before he had come here.')

 
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With Leah, in Roses in Winter, I was surprised that she wasn't being nasty to Kara too.

We know Leah hates being the unloved replacement for Blue Jay Woman (though, although it sucks for her having a mate who doesn't love her, I suspect, considering things like the way Bran interfered with Samuel and Mercy, that Bran was honest/upfront with Leah about what he could and couldn't give her, so it's kind of Leah's own fault for choosing a mate who she knew didn't love her?)

Anyway, we know Leah really hates Mercy and Charles, but I don't remember reading anything on how she felt about Samuel.
Maybe Leah's hatred of Blue Jay Woman (or the memory of Blue Jay Woman anyway) has ended up developing into Leah having a problem with Native Americans? Or at least, anyone with Native American blood who Bran cares about? As I said, I don't remember seeing anything on how Leah feels about Samuel, specifically. And though she was nasty to Anna when she met her, from what Sage said, that seemed to be because Leah didn't like the idea of Charles being happy. (Cry Wolf, pg 75, Sage says 'Sorry about the rough welcome, but whatever makes our Charlie happy is sure to get her tail in a twist because our Alpha loves his sons.')
I'm not sure if that implies that Leah hates Samuel/hates the idea of Samuel being happy too or not, but it certainly implies that with Charles.

So does Leah hate Charles more than Samuel? Does she have a problem with Samuel at all? She was upset when Bran discussed things on the phone with Samuel instead of talking to her, but she didn't seem to be directing hatred towards Samuel because of it (from what I could see, anyway), she just seemed to be upset with Bran. But later, when Charles and Anna were in the mountains, got back to the vehicles and he phoned Leah, it seemed (from what Charles thought of the conversation, not that we heard it,) like she was somehow blaming Charles, or at least making a point about disliking him still?
Anyway, so that's a theory (which might be completely wrong) on another possible explanation for why Leah seems to be nice to Kara, but hates Mercy. Being nasty to Kara, after all, isn't likely to have such a direct effect on how happy Mercy or Charles are, after all.

I think some of the other reasons people suggested; Kara being a werewolf, so unable to have children and with a more defined/ an actual place in the pack hierarchy (below Leah) etc, probably help Leah be nicer to her than she was to Mercy too.
Also, Kara having the werewolf instincts rather than coyote means that she doesn't seem to be likely to get back at Leah for something by stealing her shoes. or playing some other trick or something. So maybe Leah finds that easier to deal with?


« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 12:21:10 am by Itsy-Cat »
        

snapdragon

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2014, 09:19:32 am »
I thought Charles might of been the child Leah can't have? Though she hates the fact that he reminds her of how much Bran loved his mother Blue-Jay woman, I also remember reading how Bran looked for someone like Leah and found her shortly after his mate died? I imagine Charles still would of been young, so did Leah have to help raise him? Obviously she hates him so I can't picture that. Leah went into their relationship wanting power, which she abuses, and if she really wanted to soften Bran's heart towards her you'd think she'd try an stopped being so awful. It's just curious how Bran trusts Kara in his own home but not Mercy.

Leah I believe has issues of her own. She despises that she knows that Bran didn't choose her - his Beast chose her specifically due to her attitude. He didn't want someone else to love, he needed someone to ground him so that he would not go berserk again. Bran admits that he hurts her. He can smell her feelings and emotions and makes sure that he doesn't change his actions or how he has always treated her.

With Kara, Leah I believe has found someone to be a mentor to. She has spoken to Bran about how it would be to be a 13 yo girl who was a urbanite and having to go outside in the woods and strip to change. How that could make her embarresed, confused, scared and afraid to even try to shift. I believe that more women in Bran's pack are pulling for her due to her age than we know.

Patti L.

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2014, 02:28:56 am »
Re-reading "Roses" earlier tonight, just now made me think; there's no sign that Kara triggers any flash-back or trauma from Mariposa with Asil, isn't that interesting?
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Itsy-Cat

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2014, 06:19:14 am »
Re-reading "Roses" earlier tonight, just now made me think; there's no sign that Kara triggers any flash-back or trauma from Mariposa with Asil, isn't that interesting?

Ok, but why would Kara trigger Mariposa flashbacks? Yes, they're both young teenage girls that Asil sort of partially looked after/ started to care about, but Asil is supposed to be something like 1300 years old isn't he? He's probably looked after/cared about a lot of kids.

Even just in Roses in Winter, hew mentions Devon's daughter (pg 311, he  thinks that he 'did not remember what Devon's long-ago daughter smelled like. But he did remember a pretty little thing who had been fond of roses and moved like a colt. Kara had that same awkward gracefulness too.' And when Kara shows up at the greenhouse and can't change back, he tells her stories that he'd told his own children.
So, as I said, it seems like Asil has probably cared about a lot of children in his lifetime. Mariposa I'd guess is the one big mistake/problem, but because of all the others (who didn't turn out to be evil), he probably has far more good memories than bad when it comes to looking after children.

And with Mariposa, in Cry Wolf, it seemed like he sort of separated, in his mind, the child she had been when they first got her from the evil witch she ended up as as she grew older. So maybe that helped too?

So, in general, I don't think it's really odd that he doesn't have Mariposa flashbacks with Kara around, as Mariposa the witch was one bad experience among lots of good ones, and the vast majority of children aren't going to turn out like that. And Mariposa was a child something like two centuries ago anyway. Didn't Asil say in Cry Wolf something about how he didn't think she'd been anyone's Mariposa for a long time? (Or somthing like that anyway.)

And maybe on top of that, Kara isn't really anything like Mariposa? (Whereas she is a little like Devon's long dead daughter?)
Maybe Asil have a lot more trouble if another young witch showed up though?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 06:26:23 am by Itsy-Cat »
        

Janilee

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2014, 06:41:56 am »
I think the fact that Kara is a young wolf and Mariposa was a witch is probably one of the many factors that would set them apart in Asil's head.
 

Patti L.

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2014, 03:26:50 am »
Come to think of it, if all the alphas and their seconds are supposed to go to Aspen Creek once a year,
1. how did Leo get away with his persiflage?
2. how did the Alaskan alpha who was making the power play manage to not come down since the 1880s?  Big gap in canon there.
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katy

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2014, 05:22:46 am »
Come to think of it, if all the alphas and their seconds are supposed to go to Aspen Creek once a year,
1. how did Leo get away with his persiflage?
2. how did the Alaskan alpha who was making the power play manage to not come down since the 1880s?  Big gap in canon there.

I think the key there is "supposed to" -- probably there are always some who can't make it for one reason or another, and until very recently, it's not like they could tell folks it was a werewolf obligation.  I don't have it in front of me, so maybe I just filled this in from my own imagination, but wasn't something said about Leo having brought Boyd to the last such gathering because his second had to work?  And as long as nobody had reason to be suspicious about the accuracy of his pack membership list, probably there weren't any questions and he didn't have to try to lie about it.  He had managed to isolate his pack from the other Chicago pack, so the other alpha wouldn't know to raise questions.

The Alaskan alpha is a bigger question -- apparently Bran has known he was still alive, since he's sending wolves and their relatives who want to be changed to Bran for that.  Maybe it was just accepted that he didn't like to come to civilization, and he was allowed to send representatives, as long as there weren't reports of trouble from his pack?  There's a lot of wilderness in Alaska -- maybe Bran figured that he was isolated enough that he couldn't cause much trouble, and he was picking his battles in allowing the alpha to skip the yearly gatherings?  He was apparently enough of a hermit that he didn't know how many other packs there were in Alaska, so maybe Bran just didn't worry about not hearing from him for a few years at a time.

It's a good question!

Patti L.

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2014, 11:26:04 am »
Even for Bran, Samuel, or Asil, 130 years is more than "a few"!
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katy

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2014, 12:25:55 pm »
I agree -- it's a stretch.  Maybe Bran believed him to be dead for at least part of that time?

I wonder how long Bran has been the Marrock -- he came to North America in the time of the fur traders, but it must have been quite a bit after that when he established the organizational structure currently in place, and perhaps even more recently that it has been feasible to have yearly meetings, due to the need for reliable infrastructure for travel.  And how did he go about putting this structure in place?  Did he have to search out every pack in North America and demonstrate his dominance to the alpha?  Did they start coming to him spontaneously for help in solving their problems?  Hmm...

Zealith

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Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2014, 10:20:59 am »
Maybe the Alaskan alpha was sufficiently far from anyplace with a plain, train, or boat. It would be a bit much expecting someone to travel for several days each way just for a meeting. Maybe Bran knew him well enough to just have the occasional letter or phone call?
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