Author Topic: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**  (Read 69902 times)

Joretur

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2013, 05:01:12 am »
Another thought that comes to mind as for why her eyes glowed.  Maybe Mercy IS pregnant.  I mean it would be a stretch to think that the child would already have wolf-like attributes, but she is a Coyote...and the rules seem to change a lot with her.  If that's true maybe its also a channeling of the kid or something like that.

Remember at the beginning of the book there was something mentioned about a "big reveal" but as far as I remember it was never said what it was.  Unless I completely missed that part.

One thing is for sure though, the laws of the supernatural don't really apply the same to Mercy as they do with others.

She did freak out a bit when Jesse brought it up.

DandelionWine

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2013, 05:29:46 am »
I think the freak out that caused the accident was because of the Pack either getting snatched or Adam waking up from the drug. 

Something else that came to mind about Walkers, remember how the Hawk Brothers (in River Marked) don't see ghosts anymore because they chose not to a long time ago?  Native taboos about death and ghosts etc being very different than the anglo attitudes Mercy has been raised with, plus them having been in battle making that very difficult too, they just shut that part of their magic down.  Does that mean that Mercy can reach for other aspects of her Coyote magic that she either chooses to or has in the past chosen NOT to have?  Sure leaves Patty B lots of leeway, which is a VERY good thing for her fans!!!

I think the eyes were either a trickle from the Pack-magic, or a new aspect of her own.  If she changed the 'rules' enough to physically draw silver through the bond, surely some eye-glow is a mere nothing!!   8)
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Kyria

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2013, 09:00:00 am »
I agree that what caused the accident was something to do with Adam - and so were the golden eyes.  Mercy and Adam's bond sometimes does odd things, and with Adam a little drugged up, it just made so much sense to me.  Between Mercy being upset/angry and Adam being drugged, both of them probably trying to reach each other but not getting much out of it... something got passed along the bonds, but they just weren't able to talk to each other. 

Alternative speculation: you know how when Mercy tries to contact Adam at Samuel and Ari's house, she thinks at first that she failed, and then she realizes that she's looking out through Adam's eyes?  What if Adam did the same thing, but he was still too drugged up to realize that he'd actually made the contact he wanted?  And maybe he thought that seeing people back home was just a dream/hallucination. 

Second alternative speculation (I don't like this one as much): the gold eyes are caused by some conscious effort by Adam (and/or his wolf) to protect his mate and daughter.  IE, Adam is drugged, captured, and in a terrible position, and he senses that Mercy is upset and angry and confused... so Adam decides that for the moment, he's going to do his best to help the members of his pack who are still free, if they need it.  Perhaps he merely opened the bond a bit extra from his end to make it easier for Mercy to draw on his Alpha-ness.  Perhaps he tried to send some extra power down the bond.  In either case, golden eyes were a side effect of Mercy receiving something from Adam while human Adam wasn't entirely in control.


Which reminds me.  When did Adam's wolf learn to speak English?  THAT I didn't expect, based on Adam's assessment of his wolf as well as the prior encounters we've had with him.  And consider that Brother Wolf prefers to communicate in a more elemental way than words (and considers English to be "baby talk")... that's more how I expected Adam's wolf to communicate. 

Patti L.

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2013, 09:08:56 am »
Different werewolves, different brother wolves.  Charles & his have had over 200 years of communicating with each other, they can do the empathy/flash of scent/sight/sound thing, but Adam's wolf is about a quarter that age, and generally ruthlessly suppressed by Adam's human mind & heart.  There was a lot that Adam tried to push through the link, mostly a spate of questions, but the difficulty of the moment prevented it from going slowly enough that Mercy could make sense of it.
Given that he was drawing the energy she was offering him as well as from the pack ("what they didn't have to spare"), I doubt he was pushing any other 'help' down either type of bonds to her. 
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Has

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2013, 09:12:18 am »
I just came across this about the tension between Mercy and Honey at the Amazon forums -

Quote
Hi :) You are right, they were starting to deal well with each other. However, in Silverborn, Mercy shakes up the standards of rank in the pack in order to allow Mary Jo to fight. If the pack decides to hold to that ruling (and, off screen, they have mostly been trying to ignore the ramifications) that would put Honey way up the pack rankings. Honey was Very unhappy about that and they have gone back to being not-friends again. My apologies for not making it clear in Frost Burned (and I agree that it is not) for the reasons for Honey's renewed dislike of Mercy.
Best wishes,
Patty Briggs

http://www.amazon.com/Frost-Burned-Mercy-thread-havent/forum/FxOAX00UQTLU3L/Tx235P8ZIXM42HH/1/ref=cm_cd_dp_tp_t?_encoding=UTF8&asin=0441020011


This is going to be so much harder now that there is no buffer with Peter being as submissive which Honey can pretend to take her rank from. But remember when Patty said in the chat the other day about Mercy changing Adam's perceptions with pack magic. Maybe that's a factor as well. And I think being a female and a dominant one, is going to play alpha dynamics in a different way to men as well. I can see why Honey would feel reluctant with the whole domination and rank games/posturing.


I really loved how this tied up loose ends from Moon Called and carried on those threads. That interested person who gave the info about the wolves - who is he and what is their real agenda. And it feels like we will definitely see the Master of Milan appearing in the future - and did anyone note about the blood bound still active! Stefan lied to Mercy and Marsillia knows about it!  Mercy is definitely going to be wary of him about that and I wonder how Adam will react to that piece of news.

I do think there seems to be a bleeding into each other's powers theory and i think the pack bonds/mate bond is definitely the reason why this is happening. Adam did note his change was faster. If Mercy is sharing his powers via the bonds then he should do as well- and he seemed to sense what was Peter was warnings. Maybe because their bond was so hastily formed and it was short circuited several times, it is now finally settling down. I got a feeling that the bond is going to be like how Mariposa stole and used the mating bond with Asil and his mate. But unlike them which was a one-way thing. This is true sharing with give and take and its driven by need and love.
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Patti L.

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2013, 09:40:31 am »
I said this in a PM exchange with someone before release date:

 Rousing good story!  Fun!  Interesting help from Coyote.
 Doesn't do anything to answer any of the big questions, and having everything laid
at the door of this psycho vampire seems too much, but what the heck?

Although it is a rather disturbing statistic... out of how many Mercy novels,
 the vampires have been the bad guys?  Andre & Littleton, James Blackwood,
Marsilia always, in a low key way.  The other members of her seethe in conjunction
with Andre.  Not to mention the mercenary vampires in Hunting Ground.

On vampires being "the biggest, baddest bad guys":
They are; fairly clear cut bad guys, saving certain individuals, Stefan & the
gal in... where was she, Chicago? In the Home Improvement collection.

I just think that three of 8 -or is it 7?- adventures to devolve on the vampires
is pushing their ability to avoid coming out & the chances of detection fairly hard.
 Especially with the other creepy ones lurking in the background, the Master of Milan
& the one who went by the name of Max Schrek in "Nosferatu".   

There are so many possible bad guys.  Organized haters like the "Bright Future" & their big brothers, what were they called?  Zee's lawyer was a member of the group.  As well as the lone
nuts like Heuter from Fair Game; non-US government agencies hunting for conscript
werewolf/other supernatural agents in the US, big game hunters, individuals who
have put 2+ 2 together & decided group/type/person X is responsible for some
 misery in their own lives, like the kids of the truckers from Blood Bound, folks
 with more real grievance than Heuter & nephews had.  General criminal organizations
or "geniuses" who figure they can blame/build an organization out of the
disenfranchised of the supernatural community, lone wolves, half/part fae, or others
they may have stumbled across or deduced. --That one has some interesting
possibilities, in fact. 

Whether as a human who tries to be big boss or some
less powerful but smart werewolf/fae/vampire/?? maybe from one of the mythos
that Patty hasn't touched yet, Africa, South America, Asia, Australia... or someone like Tad looked like turning into before Mercy, Gabriel, Jesse, & Ben burst into his funk.  Tad did mention that the part bloods were excluded (even he, who has some "big guns" however erratic) from the reservations/underhills, but still expected to obey the Grey Lords and report the renegade full bloods who hadn't gone to ground.  And the Grey lords don't know who/where all those are; they had no idea the White Stag of Fair Game existed, did they?  Beauclaire said that if Charles (or even he, himself) had tried to follow when it escaped Lizzie's prison, the power of the White Stag was such that the follower would kill himself in the chase, warned or no.  That's... not exactly small potatoes.
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Kyria

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2013, 10:22:32 am »
Different werewolves, different brother wolves.  Charles & his have had over 200 years of communicating with each other, they can do the empathy/flash of scent/sight/sound thing, but Adam's wolf is about a quarter that age, and generally ruthlessly suppressed by Adam's human mind & heart.  There was a lot that Adam tried to push through the link, mostly a spate of questions, but the difficulty of the moment prevented it from going slowly enough that Mercy could make sense of it.
I see it the other way.  The wolf side seems to be a fairly instinctive creature - even the most civilized of them that we've met.  It makes sense to me that a young wolf, and especially one who has not been allowed to interact with anyone except their own human half and other werewolves, would try to communicate with other humans the same way it would with its own human.  And I don't see them being created with an instinctive knowledge of the English language (or any other human language, obviously). 

My brain just jumped into some neurobiology here, so I'm going to try to explain this but I'm not sure I'll lay it out very well.  I think that the wolf part of a werewolf has its roots in the instinctive, fight-or-flight-but-mostly-fight part of the brain.  That part of your brain isn't all that closely connected to the parts of your brain involving vocal language.  That simply isn't something that part of your brain needs.  It's much more effective to communicate with body language, tonalities (ie, a scream of terror vs. a roar of anger etc.), facial expressions... even humans do this.  Mercy says constantly that werewolves are instinctively more in tune with that sort of communication than humans are.  Why would a werewolf need to use English to communicate with its human half?  Spoken/symbolic language is inefficient if you're a creature that exists in the immediate world.   

One of the things that happens when you're in a heightened emotional state (such as fear or anger) is that it gets harder to be articulate.  The extent of this of course depends on the type and degree of reaction you're experiencing.  For instance, you might stumble over words when you're excited.  Why?  the simple explanation is that at a sub-conscious level, your body is paying more attention to that pre-linguistic part of your brain.  Obviously you can still access the spoken language regions of your brain.  It just takes more effort and/or practice to speak well. 

Therefore, I have a hard time believing that a younger werewolf is more likely to be articulate in English than an older one. 

Patti L.

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2013, 09:38:36 pm »
I'm thinking more in terms of "Adam grew up speaking English, probably only English.  He was not attuned to nature the way that Charles, born 150+ years earlier was.  He & his wolf are less integrated/a team than Charles & Brother Wolf are.  He has fewer of the subtle nuances of expression between his English speaking self and his wolf self available and accessed, then surpassed than C & BW."  In other words, even though this was a high stress situation, as you say, Adam's wolf is ... a baby in BW's view, and therefore entirely likely to speak what BW would consider baby talk when speaking with Mercy.

Additionally, while you're focusing on the fact that Adam's wolf self spoke with Mercy, I'm more concentrating on Adam's initial, mostly human, fuzzy rush of question & information to her.
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Kyria

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2013, 10:14:10 pm »
Well, we knew that Adam's human half can communicate with Mercy via their bond (and even that the wolf can... remember at the end of SB?).  So I wasn't surprised by that. 

I think "baby talk" is Anna's inefficient human way of saying that Brother Wolf thinks English is a dumbed-down/inefficient way to communicate, not that it's the way an actual youngster would communicate. 

Think about the way that Anna's wolf talks when she takes over Anna's human body: I think Charles says she's typically monosyllabic, but she definitely speaks with small words and short, simple sentences... or else she simply bypasses speaking and shows Charles what she wants.  Though Anna's wolf isn't quite the same as any of the dominant wolves we've met so far.
...now I'm gonna have to go re-read In Red With Pearls to see what insights I can gain from Warren's wolf. 

DandelionWine

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2013, 05:38:19 am »
OK, change of subject a bit... Am currently re-listening to Frost Burned, and while thinking about Tad, (just now on the part where he and Asil and Mercy are at Sylvia's to get the kids to take back to Kyle's...) Thinking about his situation and such.... how would it be if he went to Aspen Creek, set up a blacksmith's shop, could do some down home, old fashioned metal smithing, forging metal etc.  Developed his craft, perhaps to do some personal growth and research about exactly what his craft IS.

How cool would it be if some certain few interesting fae sort of started to find their way to Bran?  Noone the Gray Lords would be all that concerned about, they dismiss the half fae/part fae as unimportant, but what if they started to find their own version of power with the protection of Bran and his pack, either right in town, or nearby in some little deserted town in a hidden valley nearby?   Probably mostly the minor part-fae, and maybe a couple full fae who are "too weak" to be of interest... perhaps some full fae who are powerful enough to stay hidden from the Gray Lords... maybe they LIKE being around humans!  or at least SOME humans, and Weres?   

This is VERY intriguing to me!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 05:43:44 am by DandelionWine »
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Elle

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2013, 07:03:34 am »
Interesting, DW! You have to wonder just what is going on at that meeting. I think the Gray Lords are mailing a huge mistake discounting the half-fae and that may result in some kind of civil war down the road.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Tad was studying at school. I would love to see him hang around mercy and the crew more. I'm intruiged by the idea of him working near Bran but I want him in he tricities!
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DandelionWine

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2013, 07:25:08 am »
Yes, I really loved that he's working with her in the garage, giving her both companionship and the help she needs... I just think a part fae enclave that could give them a shared experience, some chance to work out their own issues, and a chance to spit in the eye of the Gray Lords would be pretty interesting.

i started a new thread about this idea because it's not quite "part" of Frost Burned, sort of a new branch of speculation I guess.

http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=7335.0#new
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Baum Diggity

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2013, 07:29:37 am »
Ok, I hadn't seen this commented on yet, maybe I missed it.  There was a part in the book where Mercy's eyes actually started glowing gold.  If I could find my kindle I would post the line.  I'm trying to remember the actual context of it happening, but I am curious as to what this may imply for how being Adam's mate, the pack magic and her ability to "change the rules" may impact later on down the road.

I mean some thoughts come to mind:

* Through the pack magic, and and wither her lineage, she is able to take on some of the aspects of the wolf, or the coyote part of her takes some it on.

* By some weird Coyote pseudo offspring thing she actually is slowly becoming a hybrid of wolf and coyote....the coyote absorbing and adapting the pack magic to gain its strengths or something.

I have a few more odd ideas and most are very far fetched, but I have a pretty strong imagination that tries to run away.  I really don't know, but I am very interested to see if Patty expands on what the implications of the "gold eyes" are in Mercy later down the line.

Okay, so I'm desperately behind and trying to catch up, since I shunned the interwebs while reading, and then didn't take it with me to Chicago when I went to the Oak Brook signing.  :D So bear with me...

This question actually came up in the Q&A, and while Patty was the first to admit that leaving a part sans-explanation was an excellent opportunity for her to change her mind in the future, she did point out that when writing that scene she had primarily in mind a self-discovery for Mercy, who doesn't often self-reflect, and certainly not in the mirror. She was just bringing her coyote to the surface in all her fear and rage, and it apparently manifests in her eyes, just like the wolves. That being said, Patty was willing to make it into something more if it suits her whims in the future, so we can hold out hope for something more!

As for Samuel, I think he was off helping Bran, wasn't he? Woot, time for re-readsies!

I suppose it goes without saying, but an excellent book - loved the tie-ups and references (Hao, Kyle's neighbor, Homecoming...) :D Except for Peter. I didn't love that part, that was sad  :-'

I kind of wonder if Tad's so bitter and grouchy because the succession of the Fae lost him his place in Harvard? Can't wait to see more of him in the anthology!

And as always, Patty shifted into high gear at the end, there. Interesting to see the evolution of dynamics between Mercy and Marsilia, Marsilia and Stefan, and just Wulfe in general (darn, I had that "crazy, evil onion" definition down for him more than I am comfortable with  :-\ ). It'll be fun to reread and speculate!
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Varg

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2013, 08:20:44 am »
BD that evil onion thing sprang up in my head while reading the book..... LOL It sort of made him less and more scary.


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Baum Diggity

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2013, 10:23:19 am »
I know. When he dropped his BA vamps line, all I could think was "Oh, Wulfe, you evil onion, you..." And then I spent the rest of the time wondering what he would do next.  :-\

Okay, side note - when Frost went munching on ghosties, is it wrong that all I could think of was renaming him The Pac-Man?
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