Author Topic: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**  (Read 69890 times)

big city wolf

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #60 on: March 08, 2013, 06:39:27 am »
A comment or thought was made in Frost Burned that the three most powerful werewolves in the world were witch born.  Does this mean that Samuel is considered witch born and does he have abilities that we haven't seen yet?

Patti L.

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #61 on: March 08, 2013, 09:15:54 am »
Direct lineal descent.  The horrible witch/mother who turned Bran, & maybe turned Samuel at/near the same time.  So he's got the potential, or the breeding potential, think of that!  And Charles - Charles is most likely and best suited, IMO as successor for Bran because he's got magical heritage on both sides, with his feet in the Christian mythos (having seen an angel), the supernatural European tradition (witchborn on father's side & werewolf) and the North American supernatural tradition - which I hardly need to talk about.  I'm not sure how he'd feel about leading per se, but he is dominant, and driven to protect.
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jacalynsue

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2013, 03:30:46 pm »
No one has commented on Samuel being called Ariana's mate. I hope this means that Samuel is all better, not just possibly on the mend (as he was at the end of River Marked). And I hope him being out of town means he gets his own story in the anthology!

I had to laugh and admire how seamlessly references to stories in anthologies were woven into the text here. A mention of Kyle's neighbor dying, for example... if you have read the story, you know exactly what happened. But if not, you don't find yourself lost in the current book. That takes real skill to weave the threads together seamlessly.

My only gripe was the ending of the book where it jumped around in time too frequently. It interrupted the flow the story, I thought.

DandelionWine

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2013, 03:37:32 pm »
I have been thinking about Honey and Mary Jo becoming roommates...  Mary Jo already stood up and demanded her pack standing be reevaluated by demanding her right to fight Paul in Silver Borne (I think), something that totally freaked Honey out at the time.  I wonder what being around Mary Jo more will bring to her opinion about women in a pack.

Will Honey take over Peter's plumbing business?  Obviously not as an actual plumber, but she seems tough enough to manage the workload and set up the jobs for his employees etc.  There was some mention of how Peter was the boss and a number of employees.  She's worked for him in the office (I got the impression she was essentially the office manager) so she must have a handle on the business end and such.  I wonder if doing that will bring out a new self esteem so she will understand a little more about how Mercy gets satisfaction from running her own business and making things work.  (discussion in Silver Borne I think it was, in Jesse's room)  It sounds like Honey has been 'the pretty one' for so very long that she hasn't had the opportunity to step out of that role.  I think it would both frighten her and teach her a lot.  Or else she'll just hook up with the first wolf who claims her... which would be kinda sad, but understandable.

I did notice that about Kyle's neighbor Jacalynsue, thought it was very well done too!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 05:31:00 pm by DandelionWine »
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charmed

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2013, 04:24:22 pm »
No one has commented on Samuel being called Ariana's mate. I hope this means that Samuel is all better, not just possibly on the mend (as he was at the end of River Marked). And I hope him being out of town means he gets his own story in the anthology!

I noticed that and also that Kyle and Warren (I almost typed Karren :D ) were also referred to as mates.  :-LOVE :-LOVE
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Kyria

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2013, 05:31:46 pm »
*is immensely pleased but not in the least surprised by either new mating*

jacalynsue

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2013, 05:55:39 pm »
Warren stated the Kyle was his mate in In Red With Pearls. If you have not read that story (contained in Down These Strange Streets) it's worth tracking down ASAP.

Joretur

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2013, 10:40:19 pm »
Ok, I hadn't seen this commented on yet, maybe I missed it.  There was a part in the book where Mercy's eyes actually started glowing gold.  If I could find my kindle I would post the line.  I'm trying to remember the actual context of it happening, but I am curious as to what this may imply for how being Adam's mate, the pack magic and her ability to "change the rules" may impact later on down the road.

I mean some thoughts come to mind:

* Through the pack magic, and and wither her lineage, she is able to take on some of the aspects of the wolf, or the coyote part of her takes some it on.

* By some weird Coyote pseudo offspring thing she actually is slowly becoming a hybrid of wolf and coyote....the coyote absorbing and adapting the pack magic to gain its strengths or something.

I have a few more odd ideas and most are very far fetched, but I have a pretty strong imagination that tries to run away.  I really don't know, but I am very interested to see if Patty expands on what the implications of the "gold eyes" are in Mercy later down the line.

Patti L.

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2013, 11:26:22 pm »
I may be mistaken, but (having re-read today) I believe that happened just after Mercy had used her mate bond to BE Adam for a minute or so until she managed to separate herself, and then she was psychically with him for his interview with "Jones", so that could be leakage due to how close they were then.

Besides, don't coyotes sometimes have/seem to have yellow eyes too?
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Itsy-Cat

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2013, 12:15:44 am »
Ok, I hadn't seen this commented on yet, maybe I missed it.  There was a part in the book where Mercy's eyes actually started glowing gold.  If I could find my kindle I would post the line.  I'm trying to remember the actual context of it happening, but I am curious as to what this may imply for how being Adam's mate, the pack magic and her ability to "change the rules" may impact later on down the road.

I mean some thoughts come to mind:

* Through the pack magic, and and wither her lineage, she is able to take on some of the aspects of the wolf, or the coyote part of her takes some it on.

* By some weird Coyote pseudo offspring thing she actually is slowly becoming a hybrid of wolf and coyote....the coyote absorbing and adapting the pack magic to gain its strengths or something.

I have a few more odd ideas and most are very far fetched, but I have a pretty strong imagination that tries to run away.  I really don't know, but I am very interested to see if Patty expands on what the implications of the "gold eyes" are in Mercy later down the line.

I don't think she's becoming a wolf/cyoyote hybrid, but I think the first idea, of her taking on some of the aspects through pack magic etc, kind of makes sense. The glowing gold eyes certainly suggests that something like that might be happening. (And I think that part was right at the end of the sample chapters for the book on the main site?)
No idea if coyotes eyes glow, but I think they were all surprised, and Mercy herself didn't know her eyes could do that, so, if it was just a coyote thing, wouldn't it have happened before then, at some point? Especially with how stressful her life has been recently? I think it was pack magic and her connection to Adam.

Here's a wild theory, sort of connected to that, or following on from that;
One thing I wondered was whether being actually in the pack (in a way that no other non werewolf mate is) would affect her aging. I think there was something in one of the earlier books about feeling a trickle of health /vitality or something from the pack magic when Adam was trying to get her to open up to it, in Bone Crossed? I think? (I don't know exactly where, it's a while since I read that one.) Do the walkers age human-like usually? Or was there a thing where, well, one of the primals in RM was old. Do they age normally until they're killed or decide to turn into their youthful appearance again? Or was that a chosen disguise? Actually, I don't think any of that was stated/clalified anywhere, if I remember correctly.
Anyway, I was wondering whether, if walkers age normally, under normal circumstances, perhaps being in the pack, surrounded by pack magic, might affect that?
And perhaps the health thing might, one day, mean she can heal faster? Perhaps only when/if the pack accepts her?


Anyway, on a different subject, I was another person who was surprised at Honey's hostility. I'd thought they were getting along now.
I kind of find the idea of Honey, as a really dominant wolf, preferring being treated as a submissive, really difficult to understand. I just don't really get why she'd be ok with that?
I mean, it makes sense that she'd willingly give up her position to be with her mate, because she loves him, but I'd have thought getting treated as lower than she really was in the hierachy would have otherwise irritated her, like, she'd instinctively want to be in the right place, not pushed to the bottom of the heap. That it would be a downside, a cost she was willing to pay to be with Peter, not an upside.
So... if she actually does prefer the lower position, despite being technically near the top in terms of dominance, why is that? (Like I said, I personally don't really get it.) :(


With Asil showing up instead of Charles or Samuel, I wonder if that was to do with the similarity between what happened with his mate and the way that the Necromancer guy was binding the ghosts and using them, controlling dead things in general. Didn't they mention the witch family who had that magic at one point? I'm not sure if the similarity/reminder would be good for him, but perhaps it would help with closure? Somehow? Then add that to the fact that Asil though he could handle killing a vampire earlier on, perhaps it helped him to see another magic/ghost/dead things controller get killed, without having his own personal connection to these particular new people?
Perhaps, when they found out that Mercy etc needed help and Bran decided to send someone, Charles got a feeling that Asil should go? (I think in HG, there was something with Charles getting feelings with that sort of thing sometimes?)


I think I need to reread the whole series. First I need to reread Frost Burned. I read it through once, but, the first time I read through a new book, I end up sort of skimming ahead to find out what happens next, and I end up missing a lot of details.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:19:49 am by Itsy-Cat »
        

Zealith

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2013, 12:23:43 am »
On Honey disliking Mercy again:
Remember werewolves have two sets of instinct. One from the human side and one from the wolf. Her wolf might be annoyed at being treated as a submissive but the human side might not. Depending on when, where, and how she grew up she might very well believe that a proper woman doesn't boss men around just like Adam believes a proper man doesn't swear around women.
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Patti L.

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2013, 12:34:47 am »
No, Honey didn't like Mercy, from the first.  They were pretty stiff around each other when Honey was sent to guard Mercy in Blood Bound, I think Mercy started to make some headway when she asked Honey to change & show Mr. Beckworth that she was also beautiful in her wolf form, but the "females can assert their dominance" thing upset her again, especially, as Mercy says, in conjunction with simple "coyote amid wolves" issues.

Pretty much all female werewolves get there through some form of physical & emotional abuse, from what we've seen.  Some cope one way, some another, better or worse.  I suspect that Honey's abuse included some pretty firm "don't set yourself up as a dominant" lessons, and so she's determined to keep out of that whole lot of power struggles, or maybe she's worried she'll get permanent scarring out of it.  Or some combination.

I'm wondering, with the way Mercy is resolved to protect what is HERS, right up to the whole world - she says of Frost, "he would have destroyed the world" - if she's not actually ultra-dominant in that respect, the burning need to protect, but with physical limitations that she grew up with, and not getting education in the ... spiritual or magical strengths she has, she's had to learn more human/sneaky ways of getting her way & protecting what is HERS, right down to the peanut butter incident.
Being a child (generally as well as specifically) of coyote wouldn't hurt that aspect either.  Coyote is seldom straightforward, and hunting coyotes don't usually bull into their prey, unless they're hunting mice.
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Itsy-Cat

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2013, 01:34:42 am »
Oh, ok, thanks for the explanation  :)
I think I vaguely remember reading something where Honey hinted that she'd been in an unpleasant, really nasty pack before, so I guess we don't really know how badly scarred she still is from that.
Also, if her wolf was annoyed about not being allowed to take her proper place, but her human side disagreed and preferred staying out of the fights, I guess that would make the whole thing far more difficult/confusing for her as well. Do we know how old Honey is? Or how long she's  been in Adam's pack and how long she was in a terrible pack?

And I agree that Mercy might be really dominant, but can't enforce that like a werewolf etc.
        

catchmeifyoucan

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2013, 03:32:08 am »
I might have missed it, but did we find out the result of Asil and Adam going off by themselves to figure out who is more dominant?  I am curious since they both are so powerful.

DandelionWine

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Re: [Mercy #7] Frost Burned Discussion **Spoilers**
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2013, 04:47:48 am »
Lots of points here!!!   Sorry in advance for what will no doubt become a very long post!

First, JORETUR had some EXCELLENT thoughts (IMO of course) that I agree with, I hope she does gather some of the pack-magic to her which will change the game for her both in healing and in age, which from medical science today are extremely related.  A lot (not all) of the troubles with aging are related to debilitating issues with chronic ailments, poor circulation, and the body not being able to work efficiently over time, build up of proteins and other toxins etc.  If she got pack-magic to help her heal because of her magical nature anyway, then it could clear up a lot of issues with aging and at least extend her life appreciably though possibly (probably) never make her life = to a Were’s lifespan.

One problem could be that other pack members may resent her even MORE because all their fully human wives and children will still age and die as normal for humans and she won’t… but that’s an issue for later.

I don’t see her ever getting super-were strength though.  She’ll still have to manage with uber-quick reflexes and an extremely agile brain, as well as the Coyote’s luck.

I agree that Honey is quite dominant, in one book Adam said that if she weren’t a woman she’d be someone’s second or third… she’s been low ranking and comfortably protected there, loved, cherished, treated as ‘special’ because of her looks etc.  She has a lot of adjusting to do if females are going to start getting treated differently now and she may never like it, even if in human form and human business practices etc she’s totally able to take an assertive role.  Doesn’t mean she’ll want it in the pack and she’s probably very conflicted with it because of her age and upbringing, and long pack position etc.  This is why I think her human side should continue to run Peter’s business as the BOSS-LADY, her wolf side will always be prickly in the pack but fairly happy staying lower ranking.  Adam’s too smart to try to push her unnecessarily, though they may need her higher someday too!
 
Also, in one of the ‘Ask Patty’ threads, and I THINK in one of the books too, Patty said that wolf dynamics shift and change a LOT down in the lower ranks, if it’s not Alpha, Second, or Third, and possibly the next couple positions.  If a wolf is having a bad day or week, or at home or work things are crappy, or great, they may snarl themselves up a few ranks, or drop down a few too.  Pack dynamics aren’t static, mood, health, and attitudes shift and when things are good, Honey may have felt generous about Mercy, if things start going FUBAR she resents her more it’s probably pretty normal.  (‘Were’ normal at least!)  and things have definitely gone FUBAR with Peter’s death, especially for Honey.

I got the idea that in a pack the Alpha has to tolerate all the squabbling and spats in the pack.  No way to shut them down!  That’s their nature and as our mom always told us, they have to simply “FIGHT NICE!”  We weren’t allowed to draw blood, (though it did happen and then we covered for each other because that would have gotten BOTH in trouble) and broken bones were frowned upon too.  Bruises got us little sympathy, but an ice pack (bag of frozen peas).  We were told we should have figured out how to work it out before it came to a black eye.  (yes, we all survived and are probably better people for it all!)  I guess we were sort of a wolf pack, without the fangs or claws!

I liked the thought on Itsy-Cat’s part about Charles having the idea somehow that Asil should handle it, or maybe the tops were just needed because of the delicate negotiations with the Fae.  Either is a good reason to send someone else.  Samuel may have been needed because of a medical issue, or … or.  Who knows!  Asil was good for this book, other reasoning not important! 

It was never stated who won the dominance ‘discussion’, if it was much more forceful than the one between Asil and Ben I think in this case I’d be surprised.  They may take it up a notch another day, but this was not really the time or the place.  If Asil gets too physical on the subject, he might lose his grip on control, and he has said on several occasions that he does NOT ever want to be an Alpha again.  He might have just made an oath to Adam that he has no intent to subvert him and is only there as a representative of the Marrok, a help with CANTRIP and to assist Adam as best he can.  He’s one of those who holds their oaths sacred, so even Adam’s wolf might be ‘mostly’ satisfied with that… mostly.
 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 04:50:37 am by DandelionWine »
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