Author Topic: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion  (Read 98653 times)

Prince of Pain

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2012, 03:46:30 pm »
Okay, I haven't made it all the way through reading this thread (I'm late to the game, but I just finished the book!), so if I'm repeating, sorry.

 ----Snip---

Was anyone else very VERY intrigued by Anna's ruminations on having babies? (I'm sure someone else must've been, since there's a whole thread around her dedicated to ideas for making that work :D). I liked how that was slipped in there and I find myself hoping something comes of it, hopefully in future A&O books (I'm rooting for a contract extension  :D), but I'd settle for something in the sidelines of a Mercy book!


Yeah I'd been going on and on about how something like this was bound to crop up.  Be it from evil mad scientists, or were-women of various levels of sanity and determination.

I actually think Anna has a better chance than most.  I'd think that as long as the Omega soul is in the body, calmness and peace should continue to radiate.  Thus that one particularly grizzly example should be precluded, at least in her case, and entirely as a hypothetical.



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« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:13:50 pm by Elle »
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Prince of Pain

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2012, 03:48:48 pm »
That sounds quite plausible.  It makes me curious if we could see into some submissive wolves, and see what the difference is there too.

Being submissive one would think that if dominate and control stunts things then they should have a better chance.  Still if they can't control their were-wolves somehow...

I agree.  Interesting to explore.



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Patti L.

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #137 on: March 12, 2012, 04:00:14 pm »
I mean in general, male or female submissive wolves, which... I'd kind of like to see a statistical breakdown.
High dominance,
low dominance,
female,
submissive,
omega,
overlaps, i.e. female omegas & female submissives.
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Prince of Pain

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #138 on: March 12, 2012, 04:07:32 pm »
I mean in general, male or female submissive wolves, which... I'd kind of like to see a statistical breakdown.
High dominance,
low dominance,
female,
submissive,
omega,
overlaps, i.e. female omegas & female submissives.

I suspect we are like mid ranking pack member with a great idea.  We run around pestering everyone in the pack who'll put up with us.  Then go to the Alpha to get us national figures he likely has no way to get.

It'd make a great little scene.  "But Alpha," we whined.  "We're on the verge of making a discovery that could save and improve countless were lives!"

"You're going to stop pestering me before I decide to lose my temper.  If you are genuinely interested in improving lives, the pack did a number on Dustin's rug.  You look like just the two intrepid wolves to go and fix it up nice for him.  Otherwise scram my little packlings, before Dady gets mad."


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(As always Patty is free to use anything I post in any way she likes, other than to sue me)
Q: What do you do when your friends turn on you and hand you over to the Vampires?
A: Get yourself turned into a werewolf and go back to rip their freaking heads off.

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Patti L.

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #139 on: March 12, 2012, 04:18:33 pm »
Actually, since Bran does keep track of numbers in packs anyway, as evinced in the original A&O short, he or Charles probably does have basic statistics for North America, anyway.
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Prince of Pain

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #140 on: March 12, 2012, 04:35:54 pm »
Actually, since Bran does keep track of numbers in packs anyway, as evinced in the original A&O short, he or Charles probably does have basic statistics for North America, anyway.


Just like our big time Alpha Patty Briggs does, I'm sure.

Just as Bran could tell them, Patty B. or Mike could tell us.  How likely is it that we will be given access to those figures?  (Sigh)


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Q: What do you do when your friends turn on you and hand you over to the Vampires?
A: Get yourself turned into a werewolf and go back to rip their freaking heads off.

Come Check out my Blog and read my stuff at:
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jenniwee

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #141 on: March 13, 2012, 06:46:44 am »
But we already know that submissives are very rare among the were and Omegas much more so.

I think POP is right when he speculates that in dominant weres the wolf and man fight for dominance over control.  However, I wonder if the "wolf as instinct" thing is more of a modern invention.  The last few hundred years has seen a marked shift away from that type of spiritual thought, so that younger weres would be significantly more uncomfortable with the idea of being two-spirited. That may lead them to reject the wolf, which could lead to disaster (ie. the vet (name???) from moon called).

In contrast, the medieval mindset was much more open to the idea of spirits and supernatural forces, which might explain why Samuel views his wolf as a separate being.  Added to that, he has had a millenia to come to terms with his wolf, which may explain why he can allow Sam out for short periods.

Temari

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #142 on: March 13, 2012, 10:54:17 am »
Wonder if the Judge and Prosecuter will turn up dead because they're Oathbreakers!

Just carpet bomb the areas!
Also someone said the same of the Jury and the witnesses.

My impression was that the trail Defending lawyer did a careful job of speaking the truth as much as possible, while still trying as hard as possible to frighten the jury. The defence lawyer is supposed to give the defence that the defendant says - so if Heuter told the lawyer that he was forced into his crime then the lawyer MUST repeat this. There's an interesting article I read from a defence lawyer that answered the "But what if they are clearly guilty?" She said that the ONLY way you know that they are if if you were there, in which case you are a witness and cannot be their lawyer. If not, then you MUST put forward their case as truth - however unlikely, it MIGHT be possible and it is not your place to judge. So no - I don't think the defence lawyer is an oathbreaker.

Nor do I think the Prosecutor is one - as far as I can tell he did his best to try and convict Heuter?

Nor the judge, because once the Jury said Not Guilty I don't think he has any option but to let the defendant go? Even if they'd said Guilty and then he'd given a pathetic sentence that's still not lying?

So - the Jury? Were they lying? What did they really believe? It's possible that they really believed that Heuter was forced to commit the crimes. I agree that it doesn't seem likely though, and that knowing he was 'only' killing fae and wolves made the difference. So they thought he'd suffered enough / hadn't done anything so terrible given the victims / etc, rather than thought, "He is innocent". In which case, yes, they are oathbreakers, for they did not give their true opinion.
Even if the fae don't get them, I suspect they are going to be very, very unpopular. While there will be many who blame the fae for the situation, I think many others will find the jury an easy target - "If they hadn't given that false verdict then none of this would have happened!" A nice thought.  :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:14:21 pm by Elle »

Patti L.

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #143 on: March 13, 2012, 11:07:34 am »
Quick correction/note; it was NOT only fae & werewolves killed; it started with orientals, and moved on from the young Asian girls to African Americans, Mexican/Spanish, and Italians; "gooks, spics, and dagos" per Travis.  That the jury, which should have had some people of one or more of those ethnic groups in it, let those go as well as the OTHER victims speaks very ill of them.  I won't be sad if somebody  :-whistle does something bad to any or all of them.   Oh, and the judge was female.

"Getting" the complicit jury is a classic trope, by the way, for revenge stories.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:14:34 pm by Elle »
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jenniwee

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #144 on: March 13, 2012, 11:44:41 am »
I think the implication was that most of the human victims would have been killed either when Les was a child or before he began helping his uncle.  The murders began in the 70's and Les was only 29(?).  I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know how they would have charged him for those murders.

Also,I think the defense was trying to do two things 1) convince the jury that Les had been brainwashed by his uncle and 2) making the victims so terrifying and inhuman for the jury that they would stop sympathizing with the victim and start sympathizing with Les.  Not an uncommon strategy for defense lawyers.

The issue of Oathbreakers could come in with the judge as most judges are able to approve or disapprove the defensive strategy--whether to allow a certain theory of the crime or present certain evidence.  It can allow a judge to steer a jury toward a guilty or not guilty plea.  As far as the lawyers being very careful about what they said, I think that has to do with how the appeal process works, rather than with not wanting to offend the were or Fae.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:14:45 pm by Elle »

Temari

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #145 on: March 13, 2012, 11:47:34 am »
Good point, Patti. Though all the early ones were the Uncle on his own, though, so not relevant to Heuter? Or were the later non-fae ones? I can't remember when Heuter joined in verses when the fae came out. I did wonder if the prosecutor had grilled Heuter more on the child (last but one murder), who I don't think was actually fae (in database by mistake I think?), asking him to confirm what he did to the child, if the jury would have behaved differently?

Snap, jenniwee!

Re your last point:
I didn't think the lawyer was trying to win favour, simply as you said being very careful that he didn't say anything untrue and hence damage his case.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:15:03 pm by Elle »

Patti L.

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #146 on: March 13, 2012, 11:58:33 am »
Good point on the age/start of the spree, Jeniwee.  :)
As Temari said, (I think...) the fact that not all the victims after the younger generation joined in were supernatural was still underplayed by the defense, and you have to wish the prosecutor could have had a chance to hammer on that a bit more after defense gave their side of things.

I'd also, if I'd been on that team, have wanted to point out that "he made me" is BS.  Les worked for a government agency, and was sworn (presumably) to uphold the law.  Killing any citizen of the US - and "spic, dago, or gook", fae or werewolf, they were all citizens as of the time they were abducted, is illegal.  The minute he got to whatever his first training was for his job, he could, and should have spilled the beans about his uncle and cousin.  Of course he should have done it the minute they "tried to rope him in" but I think we're all pretty sure he was not forced, not one smidgen.  The prosecution, the judge, and the jury all ignored that completely.   Sucky.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:15:22 pm by Elle »
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jenniwee

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #147 on: March 13, 2012, 12:05:59 pm »
T--We must have been writing at the same time  :P

Good point about the human boy.  However, the defense would probably have argued that the intent was to kill Fae and in law intent is very important.

But that list brings up a whole bunch of questions for me.  I was rereading and I remember Charles noting that the first Fae, the one that Charles knew, was not out.  So the question becomes, how did Travis know?  Was there an earlier list that the government kept?  How would Travis have gotten that?  Did the "good" senator know more than we think?

Oi! Patti was posting while I was typing this one!

I think the issue of brainwashing would have brought up competency issues.  And remember Heuter says to Anna that his job is to protect the country against people like "you".  So, he probably justified his actions by claiming that his "patriotism" place him above the law.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:15:45 pm by Elle »

gryphon340

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #148 on: March 13, 2012, 12:21:45 pm »
First it was Masscheuts State Disrict Court not Fedral Court, though it wasn't clearifdy by Patty. Secondly the earlier victums were done by the older Hueter by himself until 2000, over mutiple state Jurdirstion.
Plus the earlier victums do not have runes craved into them.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:15:56 pm by Elle »
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Prince of Pain

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Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
« Reply #149 on: March 13, 2012, 03:28:19 pm »
Regardless of the Murders/mindwash.  They both (the two younger heuters) took credit for raping the Daughter of the Fae Prince in the hearing of Anna.  Then there is whatever the Daughter said.  So even if you give them a pass on murder.  The Rape victim was there in court and I don't remember hearing anything about how the Cantrip man was saying he didn't rape her.

So the Jury is in hock for not caring about that one and letting him walk.  In addition I've seen cases where the Judge chose to over rule the jury and impose her own sentence.  So unless that specifically didn't apply here, the Judge can fry along with every single one of the Jury and reap what she's sown for the country.


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« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 07:16:09 pm by Elle »
Q: What do you do when your friends turn on you and hand you over to the Vampires?
A: Get yourself turned into a werewolf and go back to rip their freaking heads off.

Come Check out my Blog and read my stuff at:
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Admiral Who? now available on amazon!!