Author Topic: Bran's Relationship with his Children  (Read 30098 times)

HavParker

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Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2010, 09:08:11 pm »
I'm not sure if I fully understand what that means...
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Kyria

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Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2010, 09:53:19 pm »
Healers can often deal with the moral ambiguity of sometimes taking a life.

The Hypocratic Oath says do no harm.  Honestly, there's moral ambiguity built into that. 
On the other hand, to take a life when you don't know the circumstances of that life (for instance, when Charles and Anna go out to find the rogue wolf in Cry Wolf, Charles considers that if he was going out by himself, he would have to kill the wolf no matter what, but with Anna with him, if it's only a new wolf who hasn't learned control yet, or something else that could be fixed, he might not have to kill)... that goes against what a healer stands for. 

Charles doesn't have that creed to live by.  I don't know if the moral ambiguity necessarily bothers him more or less than it did/would Samuel, but his life is not dedicated to saving those who might be saved. 

HavParker

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Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2010, 09:17:51 pm »
Okay, I think I get it. I guess, I didn't fully understand what was meant by 'healer'.
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Millie-Bob

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Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2011, 05:08:58 pm »
I was wondering why Bran molded Charles into an assassin, and didn't do the same, or something similar, with Samuel. Is it because Samuel is a 'healer', or did he choose to shape Charles into what he is because of his 'gifts', as a natural born werewolf (and his abilities inherited from his mother). In Cry Wolf Charles says this: "He knew that such things weren't so black and white for his brother. Samuel had never been forced to accept things as they were, not the way Charles had." (p.63). That seems a little cruel, in my opinion.
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Kkat07

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2011, 05:58:34 pm »
Werewolves presumably settled in North America as human colonists settled there.  Yes, I'm stating the obvious but I'm getting to a point.  :)  Bran probably became the Marrok as the packs started to form on the continent, and decided that he needed an enforcer.  It would have to be someone a)more dominant than other wolves, including alphas, b)someone that he could trust and c)someone who is capable of doing it.
That pretty much narrows it to Samuel and Charles.  We don't know much about what Charles was like when he was younger, but from what we see of their personalities in the books so far, Charles is the better choice than Samuel. 
Short answer: By the time Bran needed an enforcer, he had Samuel and Charles to pick from, and chose Charles.
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Millie-Bob

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2011, 07:28:49 pm »
I understand his need for an enforcer, and totally agree that Charles fits the role better than Samuel would, but what I'm griping about is the fact that Bran forced Charles into that role, while Samuel is basically (sort of :P) free. Charles is a loner, and nearly friendless because of his position as the Marrok's enforcer. What I'm asking is why Samuel wan't forced, or asked, to do something similar. It's totally unfair.
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Zealith

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2011, 07:32:07 pm »
Life is rarely fair, any parents never treat their kids equally, even when they make an effort to.
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ArtAngel

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2011, 08:41:49 pm »
Charles is Bran's enforcer for the first two hundred years of his life but from the small glimpses we have of Bran and Sam's early years it sounds like Sam was Bran's sanity for many, many years. Maybe Sam's relative freedom now has to do with guilt? Bran is horrified by what his eldest went through on his behalf and is giving him some time off? The last two hundred years are just a blip on the radar when you think about how long Bran and Sam have been alive.
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DandelionWine

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 12:01:48 pm »
It seems to me that Bran and Samuel pretty much learned to be weres together, I mean, what's a couple decades to a werewolf?  The weren't changed that far apart, and they're both really dominant but obviously learned to be together well... possibly due to Bran being so uber-dominant (which he was even before he was turned as has been said in several places) that after the ties of both blood and love, they managed to figure out how to get along. 

It's true, Samuel is quite dominant as is Charles, but Samuel has been in the position of second for a long time and has been happy to leave it at that for a long time too.  It seems that neither is willing to challenge Bran, possibly because Samuel is less aggressive even though still very dominant.  And Charles is also very dominant, but younger. and both of them seem to respect and love Bran on several levels, or so it seems to me.

I wonder how many father son wolves would stay so close together when they are so high in dominance?  Like I said though, I think much of it is because Bran is just so uber-dominant, and smart, and as was mentioned, the thing with Bran's mother in Wales gave them a closer bond as well.  Such family ties with other wolves who can live so long are rare and something to treasure.

I think in some respects, Charles is also a product of his time.  The west of 200+ years ago was far from a peaceful place.  In some ways his relationship with his wolf side (brother wolf) gives him a unique outlook on things.  I feel that it just sort of fell in place and worked out well for everyone, even if he doesn't love it all the time.  He's still a wolf with those instincts and due to his relationship, he's pretty good at compartmentalizing things.  Now with Anna, he can hopefully get a little extra peace over it all as well.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 12:05:30 pm by DandelionWine »
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midnight

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2011, 01:06:42 pm »
The way that I think about it is, however dominant Samuel is, he has a healers nature. ( and proberbly has done for many years given how old he is).  He also has a very strong compassionate side. for example in MC when Samuel and Mercy are visiting the vampires, Mercy mentions that Samuel hated to hurt women, or in either IK or BC when Mercy is confronting Mary-Jo, she mentions again that had it been Samuel confronting Mary-JO she was worried that he would be too soft on her even though she caused the trouble. As an assisin I would imagine that you can't be soft on people. You need to be strong enough to be able to make hard choices and carry them out regardless. As Charles says in one of the book ( forgot which one), somesimes he had to take people down and kill them whilst fighting but he also had to take people down and kill them whilst they were crying and begging for mercy. Charles constantely has to shut his personality and appear to be cold and withdrawn because thats his job. Which causes problems in his personal life such as not having very many friends. I can't see Samuel having the ablilty to shut down that far.  Nor can I see him viewing things from a black and white perspective, which is what is required sometimes to do the job. Bran must have known this for years and when Charles was born, he must have seen the difference in Charles from a very early age. Which would then lead him to teaching Charles how to be the assissin he needed. Don't forget Bran is an extremely practical man and even though Samuel and Charles are his sons he still knows what must be done.

Kkat07

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2011, 05:40:15 pm »
Charles, and Bran come to think of it, tend to view things as either right vs wrong, or necessary vs unnecessary.  Samuel doesn't do that as well, except for certain instances (like friends being threatened, or girls being beat up).  That's simplifying a little, but more or less accurate.  It's a good thing that he's like that, though.  Bran doesn't need all his advisors to think the same way he does.  Then there'd be no point.
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Ellyll

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2011, 05:10:27 pm »
By the time Samuel became a werewolf, he was an adult, had married and had children.  Bran wasn't even a werewolf when Samuel was a child.  Samuel was already molded before they ever Changed.  Whereas, by the time Charles was born, both Bran and Samuel were thousand-year-old werewolves. 

It may have been simply that. 
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lostbird

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2011, 05:31:42 am »
Charles, and Bran come to think of it, tend to view things as either right vs wrong, or necessary vs unnecessary.  Samuel doesn't do that as well, except for certain instances (like friends being threatened, or girls being beat up).


I think viewing things as "right vs wrong" is a very different kettle of fish than determining whether something is necessary or unnecessary. The former is a value judgment based upon arbitrary societal rules (e.g., bloodlust killing is always wrong); the latter may involve evaluating a situation using a rubric that includes weighing the facts against the practical against necessity with a healthy dose of nuance and gray-area thrown in (e.g., Ben eats Daniel in a sorceror-induced moment of bloodlust).


Another example: in Silver Borne, if Bran/Charles had done what was "right," one of them would simply have traveled to the Tri-Cities and killed Samuel since he was no longer in charge of his wolf. But they don't. In fact, Bran hears Mercy say she's got it under control and he lets her have a bit more time to suss it out. Charles goes so far as to confide in Mercy that he has been down this road before, i.e., not doing what was right by putting down a friend when he should have--only to have to do it eventually anyway. He implied that though he didn't want to do it again, he would if he had too, even though it would mean putting down his own brother. However, both Bran and Charles let Mercy know they would leave it to her to let them know if/when the time had come. That's not right versus wrong. That's practicality/necessity, compassion/love/trust.


I don't believe that any of the alpha wolves we've met in the Mercyverse make simple right v. wrong decisions. They are all very complex beings. I'd say sensitive, but they might kill me!


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caerali

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2011, 09:50:15 pm »
My take on Bran, Samuel, and Charles

1) Samuel is more dominant then Charles.  Yes, Charles is second in the Marrok pack.  But consider Adam's pack for a moment -- Warren is technically more dominant then Darryl.  Ranking is part dominance and part what the wolf will allow.  Samuel avoids responsibility.  Samuel's wolf isn't threatened by his brother under normal circumstances (like Warren up until he was severely injured).  So it's near perfect for Samuel.

2) Both Charles and Samuel can perform the enforcer job.  I see that both Samuel (MC pg. 272 -276) and Charles throughout the Alpha and Omega series (HG pg. 264 among others).  His line of questioning in Moon Called was rather formalized when he spoke to Gerry -- making me believe he's performed the job before.

3)  Charles is more loyal to Bran. Now don't freak out -- of course Samuel is loyal to Bran -- like any pack member or a loving son.  But view it as, Bran is opportunistic and Charles is just easier to control and Samuel is a 'wild card.'

From my view, Bran and Samuel ran as a pair for a long while (likely centuries).  Bran is too much wolf for most packs.  Wolves need packs so Samuel was his pack (and vice versa).  They came to North America while the territory was still vastly undiscovered.  Bran's wolf seized the rare opportunity to expand in a way the Europeans could only imagine.  Bran's "uber-" dominance is able to enforce a new set of morals and laws on any were that entered into his new territory.  But the area is large and needs help holding his territory.  He needs someone with enough dominance to enforce his law, but not be swayed by other Alphas.  At this point, he's got Samuel and a very young Charles. 

Bran looks to his sons of his two very dominant sons, but of the two -- knows Charles will do what he's told.  Yes, Charles has been known to put his foot in his mouth and disagree openly (HG pg. 8).  But Charles is a far more comfortable choice.  I think Samuel knows Bran far too well and makes Bran's wolf just slightly uneasy.  Samuel is known to be able to change Bran's mind (HG pg. 4) and was able to bring Bran back out of Berserker.  That much ability is a wildcard that Bran's wolf can't accept.  I bet it burned Bran a lot that his son was able to hide so effectively from him.  He still loves his son, and though he didn't break any spoken rules -- Bran can't have someone in an important role wandering off because he wants to.  This confirms Bran's earlier choice -- Charles is more dependable.  Samuel does what he wants and convinces those around him to do what he wants.  Don't feel sorry for Samuel too much.  He gets what he wants when he works for it.  He and Bran are very much alike in personality -- Bran just has more territory. 

4)  Samuel is still used by Bran, but as a sounding board (CW pg. 222-225.)  Bouncing ideas off Samuel is far safer alternative.  Both are comfortable with this -- enough that Bran calls to him for help even if in his sleep (CW pg. 222).  Bran knows he's not going to break confidence, but is obviously crafty enough to spawn ideas.  It would serve no purpose for Samuel to do so.  People instinctively trust Samuel; he's got a friendly easy going nature.  But some of it's an act he's mastered from his father.

lostbird

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Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2011, 05:42:41 am »
My take on Bran, Samuel, and Charles ....


Nice!