Author Topic: Bran's Relationship with his Children  (Read 29073 times)

LandonDark

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Bran's Relationship with his Children
« on: September 04, 2009, 09:39:37 am »
Its mentioned several times that Bran "made" Charles the pack's assassin.  Does that mean he was trained? Perhaps by Bran? What I would like to see is what life was like for Charles as he was establishing himself as a dominant wolf...also as his father's hit man.

And just who trained him how to be so lethal? bOuNcY

Any thoughts?

I just finished Hunting Ground, and it's phenomenal.


Josi

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 01:49:07 pm »
I couldn't help but reply on this one.  Through hunting ground it shows that Charles really does CARE about people.  He doesn't LIKE his job he's just good at it.  When it says his father turned him into the assassin that they needed I think Charles probably was naturally good at fighting, being that boys (sorry if it sounds sexist) typically love to fight and wrestle especially when they are growing up, and his father recognized that he had a natural ability for fighting was very dominate (says that dominates are dominate from birth in cw) and that he needed someone who he can trust to go out and take care of the "messes".  Bran being Charles Alpha and father would merely need to ask him to take that job.  Charles did mention he had taken lots of martial arts classes.  I think it was hard on Charles, he cares about people and doesn't like killing, but because he cares i think he is more able to do his job since he cares about ALL of the wolves.  Would be nice to know what he meant by when he said unlike him his brother was unable to see things as black and white as he did, and that samual never had to accept things that way in cw. 

Patty Briggs

  • Administrator
  • Mechanic
  • *
  • Posts: 310
    • Hurog.com
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 11:05:40 pm »
Poor Charles. Yes.  Someone needed to be the hit man and for various reasons it couldn't be Bran himself and Samuel is spectacularly unsuited for the job.  I am sure we'll all find out a lot more about Charles in further books  bOuNcY bOuNcY bOuNcY
Patty

ppbwashu

  • Tinker
  • ***
  • Posts: 89
  • God, thank you for moving me to wine country!
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 08:26:15 am »
Thanks, Patty!  It is very nice that Charles and Anna have their own series, because their stories are so different from Mercy and Adam.
Find what you love and do it!

Fairyfreak

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 11:53:03 am »
Ok, random aside, but I was thinking about Charles' cutting himself off from people and trying not to show emotions around them in case he has to kill them later....and then the Lady GaGa? song about "can't read my poker face" jumped into my head.  Anyone else want to make that Charles' theme song?   LOL >D

MoonBeam

  • Guest
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 03:58:03 pm »
...and then the Lady GaGa? song about "can't read my poker face" jumped into my head.  Anyone else want to make that Charles' theme song?

Please ... no. I really hate that song. I imagine Charles having more class than that and I don't think that songs portrays enough depth. Charles is a force of nature!

mb

Varg

  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1061
  • the fluffy vortex got me! There is no escape...
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 04:07:57 pm »
Umm, I'd rather not have that as his theme song. For some reason I get annoyed by it.


"It is amazing how complete is the delusion that beauty is goodness."
-Leo Tolstoy

CarolKat

  • modGroup
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • purrrrr
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 04:11:33 pm »
NOOO NOOO NOT THAT SONG. CHARLES HAS WAY TOO MUCH CLASS FOR THAT!

When I'm good I am real good  >D , When I'm bad I'm even better :-whistle

charmed

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • Book Addict & Proud
    • Bea's Book Nook
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 04:13:10 pm »
Hmmm, I must need new glasses. I thought the title of this thread was "Charles", not "Soundtrack". ???
Proud member of The Smuthound Gang & COMFIE. Esteemed member of the SOOGA. Always perfect. Sometimes breathing.

CarolKat

  • modGroup
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • purrrrr
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 04:16:55 pm »

When I'm good I am real good  >D , When I'm bad I'm even better :-whistle

Patti L.

  • Administrator
  • Hostess of Hurog
  • *
  • Posts: 12776
  • Not PattY Briggs. Keeper of the fluffy vortex.
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 04:47:33 pm »
I'm suddenly curious how Charles reacted to his first sight of an auto, when they were still all "one off".
We've had our toad for the 2020s, it's got to get better from here!
But do beware the toad burps.

CarolKat

  • modGroup
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • purrrrr
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 04:55:23 pm »
In wolf form or human?

When I'm good I am real good  >D , When I'm bad I'm even better :-whistle

Patti L.

  • Administrator
  • Hostess of Hurog
  • *
  • Posts: 12776
  • Not PattY Briggs. Keeper of the fluffy vortex.
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 04:58:27 pm »
Either.
We've had our toad for the 2020s, it's got to get better from here!
But do beware the toad burps.

Varg

  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1061
  • the fluffy vortex got me! There is no escape...
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 05:01:04 pm »
like this maybe?



"It is amazing how complete is the delusion that beauty is goodness."
-Leo Tolstoy

CarolKat

  • modGroup
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • purrrrr
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 05:02:29 pm »
Well since he was raised with Indians as well as Bran and Samuel I would say that he would have the same response in either form.  Sneak up behind it, sniff at it, poke it and run to cover, come back and confront it teeth/weapons, bared/out!

Varg  LOL

When I'm good I am real good  >D , When I'm bad I'm even better :-whistle

Fairyfreak

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2010, 11:12:18 am »
Umm, I'd rather not have that as his theme song. For some reason I get annoyed by it.

Exactly!  I can imagine his reaction... LOL  *shakes head sadly* My humor is misunderstood...does that make me a genius?   O)

Hmmm, I must need new glasses. I thought the title of this thread was "Charles", not "Soundtrack". ???

Sorry, I had a funny thought about Charles, so I put it in the Charles thread...I guess I don't know where else is would go?   :(

Patti L.

  • Administrator
  • Hostess of Hurog
  • *
  • Posts: 12776
  • Not PattY Briggs. Keeper of the fluffy vortex.
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2010, 12:13:00 pm »
There is a character karaoke thread, and possibly a character theme song one. 
We've had our toad for the 2020s, it's got to get better from here!
But do beware the toad burps.

Josi

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 12:17:19 pm »
Charles is my favorite character.  He is so complex!  I can't wait till next a & o!!!  bOuNcY

ironkitten

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 227
  • it all started with chocolate! - Mercy
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2010, 05:57:41 pm »
Its mentioned several times that Bran "made" Charles the pack's assassin.  Does that mean he was trained? Perhaps by Bran? What I would like to see is what life was like for Charles as he was establishing himself as a dominant wolf...also as his father's hit man.

And just who trained him how to be so lethal? bOuNcY

Any thoughts?

I just finished Hunting Ground, and it's phenomenal.

Well I finished it today myself. I must say I think Bran trained him and Samuel to fight but Charles just happens to have more of an edge and presence Samuel doesn't have - I think Mercy explained it well with Adam and Sam as well. Samuel is a healer and therefore doesn't have that edge. After reading this book I think it's the nature of Bro Wolf that just makes him soooo good at what he does.Charles himself is very - I don't know level head and logical, even without Bro wolf upfront he has a presence that others don't have and makes them back down. Guess back to the dominant thing. :)
Qualified hairdresser now - watch out here I come and I have scissors & hair dye!

kingken

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 0
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2010, 02:14:01 am »
Its mentioned several times that Bran "made" Charles the pack's assassin.  Does that mean he was trained? Perhaps by Bran? What I would like to see is what life was like for Charles as he was establishing himself as a dominant wolf...also as his father's hit man.

And just who trained him how to be so lethal? bOuNcY

Any thoughts?

I just finished Hunting Ground, and it's phenomenal.

Well I finished it today myself. I must say I think Bran trained him and Samuel to fight but Charles just happens to have more of an edge and presence Samuel doesn't have - I think Mercy explained it well with Adam and Sam as well. Samuel is a healer and therefore doesn't have that edge. After reading this book I think it's the nature of Bro Wolf that just makes him soooo good at what he does.Charles himself is very - I don't know level head and logical, even without Bro wolf upfront he has a presence that others don't have and makes them back down. Guess back to the dominant thing. :)

This is for me why I love the series. It also mentions in Hunting ground that he doesnt like being the killer. Also there is apart where he talks of Bran and Samuel training him to sword fight :-LOVE
Either way Charles is addictive.

ironkitten

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 227
  • it all started with chocolate! - Mercy
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2010, 09:50:14 pm »
That he is - I am re reading it now myself. Poor Charles and his dilema.
Qualified hairdresser now - watch out here I come and I have scissors & hair dye!

lostbird

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
  • (sigh....)
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2010, 09:49:04 am »
[I couldn't find anything about this in the chats, so if it's there, maybe someone can point me to it. I apologize for the length, and the words in color are my emphasis. Also, I read on a Kindle, so I can't give page numbers--but I've tried to set-up my quotes so that they're recognizable.]

Whenever I re-read the Alpha & Omega series, I wonder about how Charles became his father's second and how that role evolved to include being the Marrok's "enforcer." I'm pretty sure that Justin was Leo's all-around dirty deeds wolf in Chicago, but Leo was in protect-the-mate mode and Justin was a violence junkie. I don't get the sense that Adam would delegate such a heavy burden regularly to his second, Darryl. That is, Adam seems like a hands-on kind of alpha who would feel like he should shoulder that responsibility.

So I'm curious why Bran decided to use Charles in this way--instead of Bran himself.

Here are some things I've noticed:

In A&O, chapter 1, while driving from the airport with Anna, Charles reflects on the fact that she is frightened of him:  Being his father's chosen executioner, he was used to being feared, though he'd never enjoyed it.

A few beats later, when they arrive at Anna's apartment building, and after he is startled by the car horn, Charles reveals his role:  "Anna," he said, fully in control again. "I am my father's hit man. It is my job as his second." 

In Hunting Ground, chapter 3, Dana Shea and Charles have the following exchange:

"You are the killing arm of the Marrok. Rude. Dangerous."
"True enough," Charles said.

But I'm particularly intrigued by what Angus has to say about Charles right after Anna realizes that he was testing her (in HG, chapter 6):  "I've known Charles a long time. I saw him turn from a quiet boy into the weapon his father needed--that we needed. Just because I understood the need, it didn't mean I couldn't regret it."

Only the fae refers to Bran as "the Marrok," as if she is detached from it all. Both Charles and Angus use the more familiar "father," which makes their take on it feel more intimate and more tragic. What Angus has to say is as much a lament at Charles's lost innocence as it is an explanation. Charles was once "a quiet boy" who is turned into "a weapon." And his father "needed" Charles to be a weapon. Why? And why Charles? Why not Samuel?

I wonder if Patty has plans for a short story about a younger Charles and how he developed into the werewolf who met Anna at the airport in Chicago...?

Any thoughts?

[Again, if this has been covered in a chat and Patty has answered these questions, please just point me to the right place.]

bj

ETA: Title Modified. Elle
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 08:53:42 pm by Elle »

Brittany

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • Omega Wolf
    • blog
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2010, 12:14:41 pm »
I would love to see a short story or novella about a younger Charles as he was "[turned] from a quiet boy into the weapon his father needed". Charles intrigued me from the moment he appeared in Moon Called and I'd love to know more about his background. I know that we've gotten some information from the A&O novels, but I'd love even more than just the miscellaneous details we get in the books.

I don't think there's any plans for a short story so far (or none that she's shared on the forum, as far as I can see), but maybe she'll write something about Charles's past in the future. :)
Women are the bloodthirsty sex. We get the reputation, but it is only because the
women stand behind us, and say, Kill it. Squish it. — Ric Postinger (Hunting Ground)


Kyria

  • writers
  • Senior Pack Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2875
    • Farthest Feather Creations
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2010, 05:12:43 pm »
I'd love to see a short story about the younger Charles, too.  And I'd like to know more about his relationship with Samuel, who seems very much Charles's opposite.  I find sibling dynamics intriguing, plus - I wonder what Samuel thought of his baby brother (there's what, 800 years between them?) turning into an assassin. 

Charles always reminds me of the way a good friend of mine described me in high school.  "The nicest person [he knew] who always looks ready to kill somebody."  I thought of Charles that way from the first, right when we met him in Moon Called and Mercy is somewhat confused by his moment of kindness regarding Mac's body.

He is an excellent, complex character, I'm glad Patty decided to do a series with him instead of just leaving him as a peripheral thug.   :D

lostbird

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
  • (sigh....)
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2010, 06:33:44 am »
"The nicest person [he knew] who always looks ready to kill somebody."  I thought of Charles that way from the first, right when we met him in Moon Called and Mercy is somewhat confused by his moment of kindness regarding Mac's body.   :D


Lol! That's a perfect description, Kyria ...  ;)

caerali

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2010, 01:05:59 pm »
I got the opinion that he only really felt bad for Mac because the boy was so importaint to Mercy.  I think if he spent that much attention on every wolf who died by tragic means, it would probably eat him alive day and night.  He purposely seperates what he does from who he is or he'd gone crazy by now.  I think that part showed more about how much Mercy meant to him then anything else.

HavParker

  • Tinker
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
    • The Critical Artist
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2010, 06:20:59 pm »
I don't feel sorry for Charles, at least not that much. Not enough to wish he didn't have to do his job. He wouldn't be him if he didn't.
•Hav•

Kkat07

  • writers
  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2010, 05:18:51 pm »
I figured he was Bran's enforcer because he was his second.  He's Bran's second because he's the next most dominant wolf after Bran, with Samuel about his equal, or close enough to make no never mind.  Bran's enforcer would have to be strong enough to bring anyone back into line, even Alphas, so having his enforcer as his second makes sense.
WAKE THE SANTAMIND. -Eric James Stone

HavParker

  • Tinker
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
    • The Critical Artist
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2010, 09:27:11 pm »
I'm pretty sure Samuel is more dominate that Charles, and I mean enough to make it a significant difference. but I'm not confident in that last fact. And although you make a good point, I think it was mostly personality traits that makes Charles a more effective enforcer than Samuel.

Samuel, with his propensity to healing, wouldn't be able to handle the black and white moral sense. Charles, on the other hand accepts this easier.
•Hav•

Patti L.

  • Administrator
  • Hostess of Hurog
  • *
  • Posts: 12776
  • Not PattY Briggs. Keeper of the fluffy vortex.
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2010, 09:46:10 pm »
I believe that Patty has indicated (possibly very indirectly) that Samuel's . . . karma? dharma? as a healer is why Bran eased him out of that role as soon as possible.  Not just the issue of moral ambiguity, but the "Hippocratic Oath" stuff of not killing when there is the chance to heal.  Sometimes they conflict too badly to work.  Your mileage may vary.
We've had our toad for the 2020s, it's got to get better from here!
But do beware the toad burps.

HavParker

  • Tinker
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
    • The Critical Artist
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2010, 09:08:11 pm »
I'm not sure if I fully understand what that means...
•Hav•

Kyria

  • writers
  • Senior Pack Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2875
    • Farthest Feather Creations
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2010, 09:53:19 pm »
Healers can often deal with the moral ambiguity of sometimes taking a life.

The Hypocratic Oath says do no harm.  Honestly, there's moral ambiguity built into that. 
On the other hand, to take a life when you don't know the circumstances of that life (for instance, when Charles and Anna go out to find the rogue wolf in Cry Wolf, Charles considers that if he was going out by himself, he would have to kill the wolf no matter what, but with Anna with him, if it's only a new wolf who hasn't learned control yet, or something else that could be fixed, he might not have to kill)... that goes against what a healer stands for. 

Charles doesn't have that creed to live by.  I don't know if the moral ambiguity necessarily bothers him more or less than it did/would Samuel, but his life is not dedicated to saving those who might be saved. 

HavParker

  • Tinker
  • ***
  • Posts: 61
    • The Critical Artist
Re: Charles as the Marrok's "Enforcer"
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2010, 09:17:51 pm »
Okay, I think I get it. I guess, I didn't fully understand what was meant by 'healer'.
•Hav•

Millie-Bob

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • hooray for metal <3
Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2011, 05:08:58 pm »
I was wondering why Bran molded Charles into an assassin, and didn't do the same, or something similar, with Samuel. Is it because Samuel is a 'healer', or did he choose to shape Charles into what he is because of his 'gifts', as a natural born werewolf (and his abilities inherited from his mother). In Cry Wolf Charles says this: "He knew that such things weren't so black and white for his brother. Samuel had never been forced to accept things as they were, not the way Charles had." (p.63). That seems a little cruel, in my opinion.
the real thing

Kkat07

  • writers
  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2011, 05:58:34 pm »
Werewolves presumably settled in North America as human colonists settled there.  Yes, I'm stating the obvious but I'm getting to a point.  :)  Bran probably became the Marrok as the packs started to form on the continent, and decided that he needed an enforcer.  It would have to be someone a)more dominant than other wolves, including alphas, b)someone that he could trust and c)someone who is capable of doing it.
That pretty much narrows it to Samuel and Charles.  We don't know much about what Charles was like when he was younger, but from what we see of their personalities in the books so far, Charles is the better choice than Samuel. 
Short answer: By the time Bran needed an enforcer, he had Samuel and Charles to pick from, and chose Charles.
WAKE THE SANTAMIND. -Eric James Stone

Millie-Bob

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • hooray for metal <3
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2011, 07:28:49 pm »
I understand his need for an enforcer, and totally agree that Charles fits the role better than Samuel would, but what I'm griping about is the fact that Bran forced Charles into that role, while Samuel is basically (sort of :P) free. Charles is a loner, and nearly friendless because of his position as the Marrok's enforcer. What I'm asking is why Samuel wan't forced, or asked, to do something similar. It's totally unfair.
the real thing

Zealith

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2269
    • dragcaves
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2011, 07:32:07 pm »
Life is rarely fair, any parents never treat their kids equally, even when they make an effort to.

ArtAngel

  • writers
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1127
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2011, 08:41:49 pm »
Charles is Bran's enforcer for the first two hundred years of his life but from the small glimpses we have of Bran and Sam's early years it sounds like Sam was Bran's sanity for many, many years. Maybe Sam's relative freedom now has to do with guilt? Bran is horrified by what his eldest went through on his behalf and is giving him some time off? The last two hundred years are just a blip on the radar when you think about how long Bran and Sam have been alive.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger." -Tolkien
"F*** subtle" -Harry Dresden

DandelionWine

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2011, 12:01:48 pm »
It seems to me that Bran and Samuel pretty much learned to be weres together, I mean, what's a couple decades to a werewolf?  The weren't changed that far apart, and they're both really dominant but obviously learned to be together well... possibly due to Bran being so uber-dominant (which he was even before he was turned as has been said in several places) that after the ties of both blood and love, they managed to figure out how to get along. 

It's true, Samuel is quite dominant as is Charles, but Samuel has been in the position of second for a long time and has been happy to leave it at that for a long time too.  It seems that neither is willing to challenge Bran, possibly because Samuel is less aggressive even though still very dominant.  And Charles is also very dominant, but younger. and both of them seem to respect and love Bran on several levels, or so it seems to me.

I wonder how many father son wolves would stay so close together when they are so high in dominance?  Like I said though, I think much of it is because Bran is just so uber-dominant, and smart, and as was mentioned, the thing with Bran's mother in Wales gave them a closer bond as well.  Such family ties with other wolves who can live so long are rare and something to treasure.

I think in some respects, Charles is also a product of his time.  The west of 200+ years ago was far from a peaceful place.  In some ways his relationship with his wolf side (brother wolf) gives him a unique outlook on things.  I feel that it just sort of fell in place and worked out well for everyone, even if he doesn't love it all the time.  He's still a wolf with those instincts and due to his relationship, he's pretty good at compartmentalizing things.  Now with Anna, he can hopefully get a little extra peace over it all as well.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 12:05:30 pm by DandelionWine »
Sometimes you have to look reality in the eye - and deny it

midnight

  • Tinker
  • ***
  • Posts: 99
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2011, 01:06:42 pm »
The way that I think about it is, however dominant Samuel is, he has a healers nature. ( and proberbly has done for many years given how old he is).  He also has a very strong compassionate side. for example in MC when Samuel and Mercy are visiting the vampires, Mercy mentions that Samuel hated to hurt women, or in either IK or BC when Mercy is confronting Mary-Jo, she mentions again that had it been Samuel confronting Mary-JO she was worried that he would be too soft on her even though she caused the trouble. As an assisin I would imagine that you can't be soft on people. You need to be strong enough to be able to make hard choices and carry them out regardless. As Charles says in one of the book ( forgot which one), somesimes he had to take people down and kill them whilst fighting but he also had to take people down and kill them whilst they were crying and begging for mercy. Charles constantely has to shut his personality and appear to be cold and withdrawn because thats his job. Which causes problems in his personal life such as not having very many friends. I can't see Samuel having the ablilty to shut down that far.  Nor can I see him viewing things from a black and white perspective, which is what is required sometimes to do the job. Bran must have known this for years and when Charles was born, he must have seen the difference in Charles from a very early age. Which would then lead him to teaching Charles how to be the assissin he needed. Don't forget Bran is an extremely practical man and even though Samuel and Charles are his sons he still knows what must be done.

Kkat07

  • writers
  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2011, 05:40:15 pm »
Charles, and Bran come to think of it, tend to view things as either right vs wrong, or necessary vs unnecessary.  Samuel doesn't do that as well, except for certain instances (like friends being threatened, or girls being beat up).  That's simplifying a little, but more or less accurate.  It's a good thing that he's like that, though.  Bran doesn't need all his advisors to think the same way he does.  Then there'd be no point.
WAKE THE SANTAMIND. -Eric James Stone

Ellyll

  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1017
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2011, 05:10:27 pm »
By the time Samuel became a werewolf, he was an adult, had married and had children.  Bran wasn't even a werewolf when Samuel was a child.  Samuel was already molded before they ever Changed.  Whereas, by the time Charles was born, both Bran and Samuel were thousand-year-old werewolves. 

It may have been simply that. 
Dear Lord, be good to me.  The sea is so wide, and my boat is so small.

You let a wolf save your life, and you pay and you pay, and you pay...

lostbird

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
  • (sigh....)
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2011, 05:31:42 am »
Charles, and Bran come to think of it, tend to view things as either right vs wrong, or necessary vs unnecessary.  Samuel doesn't do that as well, except for certain instances (like friends being threatened, or girls being beat up).


I think viewing things as "right vs wrong" is a very different kettle of fish than determining whether something is necessary or unnecessary. The former is a value judgment based upon arbitrary societal rules (e.g., bloodlust killing is always wrong); the latter may involve evaluating a situation using a rubric that includes weighing the facts against the practical against necessity with a healthy dose of nuance and gray-area thrown in (e.g., Ben eats Daniel in a sorceror-induced moment of bloodlust).


Another example: in Silver Borne, if Bran/Charles had done what was "right," one of them would simply have traveled to the Tri-Cities and killed Samuel since he was no longer in charge of his wolf. But they don't. In fact, Bran hears Mercy say she's got it under control and he lets her have a bit more time to suss it out. Charles goes so far as to confide in Mercy that he has been down this road before, i.e., not doing what was right by putting down a friend when he should have--only to have to do it eventually anyway. He implied that though he didn't want to do it again, he would if he had too, even though it would mean putting down his own brother. However, both Bran and Charles let Mercy know they would leave it to her to let them know if/when the time had come. That's not right versus wrong. That's practicality/necessity, compassion/love/trust.


I don't believe that any of the alpha wolves we've met in the Mercyverse make simple right v. wrong decisions. They are all very complex beings. I'd say sensitive, but they might kill me!


 ;)

caerali

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2011, 09:50:15 pm »
My take on Bran, Samuel, and Charles

1) Samuel is more dominant then Charles.  Yes, Charles is second in the Marrok pack.  But consider Adam's pack for a moment -- Warren is technically more dominant then Darryl.  Ranking is part dominance and part what the wolf will allow.  Samuel avoids responsibility.  Samuel's wolf isn't threatened by his brother under normal circumstances (like Warren up until he was severely injured).  So it's near perfect for Samuel.

2) Both Charles and Samuel can perform the enforcer job.  I see that both Samuel (MC pg. 272 -276) and Charles throughout the Alpha and Omega series (HG pg. 264 among others).  His line of questioning in Moon Called was rather formalized when he spoke to Gerry -- making me believe he's performed the job before.

3)  Charles is more loyal to Bran. Now don't freak out -- of course Samuel is loyal to Bran -- like any pack member or a loving son.  But view it as, Bran is opportunistic and Charles is just easier to control and Samuel is a 'wild card.'

From my view, Bran and Samuel ran as a pair for a long while (likely centuries).  Bran is too much wolf for most packs.  Wolves need packs so Samuel was his pack (and vice versa).  They came to North America while the territory was still vastly undiscovered.  Bran's wolf seized the rare opportunity to expand in a way the Europeans could only imagine.  Bran's "uber-" dominance is able to enforce a new set of morals and laws on any were that entered into his new territory.  But the area is large and needs help holding his territory.  He needs someone with enough dominance to enforce his law, but not be swayed by other Alphas.  At this point, he's got Samuel and a very young Charles. 

Bran looks to his sons of his two very dominant sons, but of the two -- knows Charles will do what he's told.  Yes, Charles has been known to put his foot in his mouth and disagree openly (HG pg. 8).  But Charles is a far more comfortable choice.  I think Samuel knows Bran far too well and makes Bran's wolf just slightly uneasy.  Samuel is known to be able to change Bran's mind (HG pg. 4) and was able to bring Bran back out of Berserker.  That much ability is a wildcard that Bran's wolf can't accept.  I bet it burned Bran a lot that his son was able to hide so effectively from him.  He still loves his son, and though he didn't break any spoken rules -- Bran can't have someone in an important role wandering off because he wants to.  This confirms Bran's earlier choice -- Charles is more dependable.  Samuel does what he wants and convinces those around him to do what he wants.  Don't feel sorry for Samuel too much.  He gets what he wants when he works for it.  He and Bran are very much alike in personality -- Bran just has more territory. 

4)  Samuel is still used by Bran, but as a sounding board (CW pg. 222-225.)  Bouncing ideas off Samuel is far safer alternative.  Both are comfortable with this -- enough that Bran calls to him for help even if in his sleep (CW pg. 222).  Bran knows he's not going to break confidence, but is obviously crafty enough to spawn ideas.  It would serve no purpose for Samuel to do so.  People instinctively trust Samuel; he's got a friendly easy going nature.  But some of it's an act he's mastered from his father.

lostbird

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 117
  • (sigh....)
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2011, 05:42:41 am »
My take on Bran, Samuel, and Charles ....


Nice!




Avarel

  • writers
  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2011, 07:34:40 pm »
 How much did Samuel help Bran to become the marrok?
I don't think hat the books explicitly say that Sam was there when Bran first arrived in North America. Could Sam have come later?

Samuel was definately there while Charles was growing up. I just wonder if Samuel has ever had some time to himself. Maybe Charles becoming Bran's enforcer was at least partially Charles recognizing that Samuel was feeling a little trapped or uncomfortable inthe position he was in.

Varg

  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1061
  • the fluffy vortex got me! There is no escape...
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2011, 03:25:27 am »
Hmm. Interesting, I don't think it says explicitly that Sam was there when Bran came over the pond. It is just him that is mentioned. They might very well have been apart for some time.


"It is amazing how complete is the delusion that beauty is goodness."
-Leo Tolstoy

Elle

  • Lone Wolf
  • Administrator
  • Senior Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2287
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2011, 05:03:03 am »
Or maybe Samuel was the Enforcer for hundreds of years for Bran? I could see that, I could also see him not being happy in that position, but doing it because there was no one else. Charles taking over for him being more a brother taking over another brother's job when he was old enough. I don't think either of them would leave Bran without one of the Cornick brothers as his second.

I like your points caerali, Bran and Samuel were a unit for quite a long time before Charles was added to the mix.
Hurog Means Dragon.

Kyria

  • writers
  • Senior Pack Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2875
    • Farthest Feather Creations
Re: Bran's Relationship with his Children
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2011, 09:40:21 am »
I noticed that Bran says HE was with that trapper, whose name I don't remember, before he met Charles's mom.  That doesn't mean Samuel wasn't there, too, but that always gave me the impression that Sam wasn't with him, at least for a while.  He could have been out doing jobs for Bran (travel took longer in the early 1800's!), and I don't for a second imagine that Sam was 'off-duty' from following Bran's orders, but it has always seemed to me that in the context of a conversation about Samuel, Bran might have used "we," if they were both doing the mountain-man thing with whatsisface the trapper. 

I also didn't get the impression, by the way Charles's transformation into Bran's enforcer has been referenced, that it was Charles's choice to become enforcer so much as Bran's decision of what he needed, and molding Charles into that.  BRAN might have seen that Samuel wasn't thriving in the role, and Charles may have been aware of it and willing to allow himself to be put in that position, but I don't think it was a case of Charles necessarily being the nice little brother.  Another thing to consider - and I realize that it's probably different when you're 200 years old and there's what, more than 500 years between you and your older brother?  But human nature is full of pettiness, and I've never gotten any sense of faded resentment from Charles towards his brother, even when he's worried about what Anna will think of him as a killer, a monster, etc.  I bet I'd have that thought if it was my brother!