Author Topic: [Mercy #3] Iron Kissed Discussion  (Read 88545 times)

jenniwee

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #90 on: January 05, 2008, 07:31:52 pm »
On a lighter note... Sam the musician. I like it.

The whole Bran as Bard thing is very cool.  It does force me to rethink some things though.  I always imagined him as a peasant farmer (I think someone else said the same thing).  It also makes me wonder if Sam was also a Bard.  Cause way back when, a son would have most likely followed in his father's profession.  Which raises the question of when he became a doctor.  Oh, so many questions, so long till the next book comes out.

Actually, there were several places in the book where I thought. Did Patty put that in just because we've been asking about it?  Or was she always planning on throwing these little clues out?

I read the first 70 pages or so while eating lunch.  In a restaurant.  By myself.  So, don't worry Spryte, you're not the only one  ;D

Grey Drakkon

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2008, 11:42:40 pm »
I very much agree with Demi.  I would like to see where you are getting the idea that Adam overwhelmed her with magic, GD.  I really didn't see it anywhere but the end of the book, where, IMO, there were extreme extenuating circumstances. 

First, there are always going to be times that someone will make decisions for you, about you, when you are not in any condition to be making them for yourself.  In some of those instances, a man will make them for a woman.  It doesn't make him a chauvinist, or her weak, it is just necessary sometimes.  Usually when something traumatic has happened and the primary person cannot make (rational) decisions for themselves.  In this case, it was whether or not he should allow Mercy's fear of the cup keep her from accessing its healing powers, thereby causing her to be a cripple for life.  That he used his magic to force the decision on her is little different than when a husband makes decisions for his wife in a hospital, which at the time she may not like, but in the end, she appreciates. 

Second, you need to remember that at the time, Mercy is grateful when Adam uses his magic since he grants her a measure of peace, that allows her to rest until the effect of the cup begins to fade and she is able to come to terms with her rape as herself.

Third, Adam only does so due to the extreme circumstances.  In fact, he is incredibly reluctant to force his will on her, because he worries that he will damage her.  Only secondary is his concern that she will never forgive him.

Fourth, these are not people.  OK, they are, but as Patty points out in the scene between Ben and Adam (LOVED that) they are also wolves and wolves react differently than their human counterparts.  Even Mercy, being coyote, has some pack instinct.  So, while for Adam, the man, to influence a woman he loves is repugnant, Adam, the wolf, is not necessarily bound by those same rules.  His instinct is different, as is Mercy's.  The fact that she is attracted to him and loves him, merely makes the influence stronger.  I find it interesting that we make allowances for numerous other wolfly instincts, but not this one.

   Nope the cup part wasn't what I was talking about at all, that's the part I said I was O.K. with, because as she said, she was already physically and emotionally exhaused, and on a deep level I bet she knew that he wasn't so much yanking away her will, as giving her BACK what will she'd normally have if she hadn't drank from the cup in the first place (in other words, normally she wouldn't have been ready to go kill herself, even after being brutalized so badly). 

   There was at least one distinct area in this book, and one in the prior book where Mercy KNEW that she had no control over her body with Adam.  In the prior book, it was the scene in the garage when Adam had started off by giving her a back rub, but it had moved on from there...And got interrupted by Adam's daughter.  She KNEW that she would have had sex with him right then even though she didn't want to, especially since she was still thinking of Sam so much.  The scene that I remember clearly in this book (I'd go look it up but I have an irate sleepy kitten on my arms that's barely allowing me to type, plus I'm off to bed in a minute or two, I'll try looking it up tomorrow) was at Adam's house and he had pinned her against the wall.  She described being overcome by his magic again and was terrified afterwards because of the loss of her control, even though she can usually resist his magic.  That's the distinction for me, if she couldn't overcome HER emotions for him that's one thing, but if it's his magic, that's something else.  Having it be his magic smacks too closely of how the cup was used, it took away her will to resist, which is really the only advantage she has over weres, she can resist anything they throw at her.  It may cost her, but she can choose to say "no".  Or rather, SAY "yes" and do her own thing anyways. ;) 

   Holy wall of text batman!  >_<  Oh, and one thing REALLY bothered me.  Adam doesn't swear in front of women, but SLAPPING THEM ON THE ASS is o.k.?!  I would have thought it funny from any other character but him, but hypocricy drives me mad. 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

Demi

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2008, 06:04:57 am »
In this book i did not find the " having no control over her body" and in the last book,
when she talks with him in the car starts at page (Edit: mine is a handy little ACE Book)
267 and ends at 270, she admits to herself that he was right when he said:

" The only reason you submit to me is because some part of you wants to. I´m willing to admit that my beeing
 alpha brings part of you to the forefront, but it is you who relaxes your guard around me."

 So... :) However i think it´s like a good picture, everybody sees
something else in it, no matter how many things ( A see, a deer, trees for example) are really there.

It is in the eye of who is watching, i guess :)

Edit2:I ´am perfectly happy with this book, i have the feeling i can´t get enough
of the Series anyway.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 06:29:33 am by Demi »
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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2008, 06:23:28 am »
Its also partly the fact that Mercy is afraid of losing herself- And being mated to a wolf especially who makes her feel what Adam makes her feel that, its scary for her. In IK when she states she would never give into love displays that but when it comes to the crunch she has the strength to stand up and not give in.

Mercy is really independent and being brought up in a wolf pack and their attitudes towards women its got to be hard to let herself lose herself, especially now that she has an independent nature. I dont think she will let Adam overpower her especially with issues that she feels that she needs to make a stand and I dont think Adam doesnt want to do that either. I think he loves her because of her contrary nature she can stand up to him and he needs someone who can do that. I think I tried to convey that in my earlier post but I agree with Demi and Jeniwee.  :P
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Grey Drakkon

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2008, 07:36:57 am »
Its also partly the fact that Mercy is afraid of losing herself- And being mated to a wolf especially who makes her feel what Adam makes her feel that, its scary for her. In IK when she states she would never give into love displays that but when it comes to the crunch she has the strength to stand up and not give in.

   I definitely agree with that part and that's why Mercy was so gunshy around Adam when it came to going on dates and such.  She had to resolve within herself what exactly being independent means, how much she can bend and just how Adam will take her being so independent.  Like I said, I do think Adam as a human can accept that aspect of her (although I think it'll grate against him far more than he'll want it to when it comes to things he'd normally do for his pack members but Mercy would want no part of) it's the alpha magic messing with how her mind works that I don't like.  The whole "you wouldn't succumb if you didn't REALLY want it" REALLY rubs me the wrong way.  So yeah, she is sexually attracted to him and admires him, thinks he's a really good guy.  Potential mate material.  How much of that would need to be there for the magic to snake through and take away any resistance at all?  I like plenty of guys but I sure as hell wouldn't want them exuding something that made me take that "like/love" to a level I don't want it/am not ready for it to be at.   
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2008, 08:10:18 am »
But I don't think that Alpha magic would really affect her- not when it really counts. Yes there is a sexual basis to it  ;D  But I  don't think when it really matters Mercy wont let that affect her. And Adam knows that, he might not like it but he accepts that. Dont forget he must be feeling something similar, he feels the loss of control and that has got to be destabilsing for a control freak like him. Its not all on Mercy, they just have to learn and muddle their way to reach an agreement with things and I think thats going to be fun  :D

For example I know there is going to be a huge fight over who will pay the bill the damage to Adam's house lol but I don't think Mercy will let him overpower him about that. They like riling each other but that frisson between them is part of their attraction. And although you may feel that he overpowers her, I dont. He treats her as an equal although he can be pretty overbearing and vise versa with Mercy, and that respect and love is a good basis for a relationship; and all relationships has to have a little give or take but that doesn't lessen that person's standing.

I hope that makes sense I am helping sister with her very very long essay and words are starting to the conga on screen at the moment :P
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jackie

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2008, 09:10:30 am »
This whole discussion bring to mind a favorite song of mine.  A few years ago Sinead O'Connor came out with No Man's Woman.  It was very misunderstood at first and a lot of people thought she had gone over the deep end with the religion thing and all.  But if you take the time to listen to at least the refrain it says "I have come too far to  only be No Man's Woman"

What I think it means and what it means to me is that I am strong enough in my Self to be a full partner to another.  I don't need my femaleness to be protected from another's maleness.  My Self is whole in its Self   so I can walk hand in hand with another without loosing my Self.

Now this is hearsay on my part, but if it is actually true, I love the idea.  For Sinead, it is actually a very deeply felt love song to God.  Wow.  Who said faith couldn't be sexy?

Now back to the point. I'm not actually off topic here. Much.

I think that what Mercy has decided in this book is that she does love Adam that way and she no longer needs to be no man's woman to be herself.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 09:19:46 am by jackie »

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2008, 09:22:52 am »
Yep that is what I was trying to articulate thanks Jackie lol

I felt like I was making a muddle of it :P


and talking about songs reflecting the feel of the characters. I felt Amy Winehouse's cover Will you still love me tomorrow totally fits into what Mercy was feeling about the aftermath of the rape. Its more bluesy/soul than the original and the scene where Adam holds her all night comes into my mind now when I hear this song and it makes me teary now.

You can listen to it here via youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ludxpkyrab0
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jenniwee

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2008, 09:29:26 am »
Well put jackie!  I think you're right.  Mercy's fear stems not so much from being overwhelmed by Adam's magic as losing herself to Adam.

I have gone back and reread those passage GD and, hate to say it, I think you're reading the wrong things into them.

1)  In BB, no mention of magic is made.  In fact, Mercy deliberates whether or not she wants to get physical with Adam and decides to let it happen.  "I was more than willing to accept responsibility for my actions--and allowing him to slide his warm, calloused hands into my hair was definitely and action on my part."  Earlier she says, "My susceptibility to him was one of the reasons I'd been avoiding him."  However, I don't think she's taking about susceptibility to magic, but rather lust.

2) In IK, Adam, NOT Mercy, ends up backed against the wall with Mercy plastered to him.  Sure, he initiates the kiss, but she is certainly a willing and active participant.  And again, magic is never mentioned.

In fact, the only places where he does influence her with magic (when Warren is injured, after Jesse is attacked) it seems mostly to flow from his influence over the entire pack or to ensure the safety of a member of his pack.

She fears his influence, but we never see it used sexually, which I think is your main argument.

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2008, 03:20:15 pm »
I'd like to add about Adam's use of Alpharic power during the scene when Jesse comes home after her attack- Mercy feels it but doesn't succumb to it. She later realises this and was proud that she stood up to it.

I think Ben is really insightful and would have known that she was the only one who could have calmed him down perhaps by diverting his attention which she does, although Sam is more dominant it might have exacerbated the situation.

I also noticed another thing its only when Mercy needs to be comforted- albeit sub-consciously that she lets Adam comforts her when he is using his power. I can't see no instances where she actually succumbs to his alpha power- I can only think of the time with Sam during MC is when she collapsed, when he was calming the attention of the pack.

Its more of a pre-cuser of the fact that Mercy isn't alone- yep shes independent but I think IK has illustrated that she is beginning to have a family of her own making. Zee and Tad (a father figure and brother), The pack and Adam, Sam and Bran. Its going to be really interesting to see if her mum appears in the next book, especially after the events of IK Mercy wont be able to push her away like she usually does.
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Sofy

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2008, 11:02:42 pm »
Yes, they do happen to wonderful people and its awful. Plus Mercy rape had a ripple effect that was very realistic, and it was an eye opener about why Ben was the way he is, that yes the same thing can happen to men.
I second that  :)


I love Iron Kissed. Really. Patty did a great job and it was hard to put down the book. :P

One thing I really appreciated is the clear difference (and evolution) of the relationships between Mercy and the various male characters (Mercy is not like in another serie the point of attraction of every male around  ::) ;) )
- Sam who became more a very close friend than a potential lover at the end,
- Warren the confident,
- Adam the potential lover,
- the new complicty with Ben (I love the little part when Mercy asked him to "frighten" the bully boys)
- Bran "her father" (I like the part where Patty "explained" via Sam how important is Mercy to Bran.)
- Zee a paternal and protective figure (Pretty unusual for a Fae  :P )
and so on.

I really enjoyed this book. *claps to Patty*
Can't wait for the following one.

(btw, only one bad point : there is no French translation... so I can't convert my friends :'( )
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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2008, 08:17:03 am »
Iron Kissed I thought was written wonderfully, my favourite book of the series so far. The dynamics of the relationships Mercy has with her friends and love interests envolve in this book and has set the tone for the series.

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #102 on: January 08, 2008, 10:16:24 am »
I was really VERY impressed by how genuine Mercy's response to her trauma (during and after) felt. It felt like the reaction of a real person. A lot of books in this genre are full of characters engaging in hand-wringing, angst and woe, but it tends to feel a bit superficial. In contrast, this  was a real and vivid picture of a person who'd been deeply wounded - to the point where I ended the book wondering if there was someone whose pain had given Patty this perspective, and hoping that they were well.

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #103 on: January 08, 2008, 02:07:39 pm »
I don't have a problem with Adam soothing Mercy after her experience.  If only it was possible for trauma victims to come in and experience an instant calming sensation.  It's a good thing that an alpha has this power.  Imagine an out of control werewolf...  I assume the fairy cup may have healed her spiritually as well or at least helped her. 

Now that Samuel is back to just being Mercy's big brother, I'd really like to see him find someone special.  That said, how about a witch? Are they immortal and could they produce living offspring?

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Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #104 on: January 08, 2008, 10:33:17 pm »
I really enjoyed how Patty integrated Mercy's relationship non-choice into the way Mercy defeated the villain in IK -- that Mercy didn't give in to being in love with Samual and with Adam, so she would not be destroyed by being enslaved with love for Tim.  I'm very happy with the choice Mercy made but I do think there's more to the relationship issue between Mercy and Adam than Mercy simply being overwhelmed by her feelings of love for Adam (though that is certainly part of the problem for Mercy) -- there is also the threat of Adam's Alpha power overwhelming Mercy.  But this will be a good conflict to see addressed as the series continues.

I think the dojo scene in Blood Bound does show the negative impact of Adam's magic on Mercy.  Adam notices and states that "passive isn't like you" (BB p. 90).  Mercy's passive reaction of pleasure seems similar to what a vampire victim experiences or how Honey described how a young female werewolf would belong to the Alpha and it wouldn't be too terrible (BB p. 110).  On the other hand, if magic was not an influence, Mercy's response could mean that while Mercy is otherwise active and initiative-taking, in the bedroom she wants to be a Submissive to Adam's Dominant.  There aren't any other indicators of that though (yet) and to the contrary, in IK, when they kiss in Adam's hallway, Mercy does take an active role.  This follows from the end of BB, where Adam and Mercy agree that Adam will try to restrain himself from using his Alpha power on her and he'll let her take the lead in dating, kissing, etc, while Mercy acknowledges that part of the problem does lie within herself. 

The scene in Iron Kissed that indicates that there's still an Alpha-magic-related issue is not the cup-drinking scene at the end (where's she's injured) or the kissing in Adam's hallway scene (where she takes the lead), but the scene outside of Mercy's garage when they confront each other over Adam installing the security system.  Adams kisses her without restraint and Mercy thinks that she'd have done anything to please him and fears that Adam was the only Alpha who could make her act against her will (IK p.151).  It's only in a sexual setting that Mercy's partial immunity to magic is completely nullified by the pleasure she takes in pleasing Adam.  Otherwise, she actually takes pleasure in aggrevating Adam and can use her partial immunity to magic to stand up for herself and others against Adam. 

Looking forward, whether or not Adam's Alpha power previously overwhelmed Mercy in a sexual context, the next books could show the entirely speculative impact of Adam's magic on Mercy's post-traumatic rape recovery -- the overwhelming nature of Adam's power could help Mercy in her emotional recovery or it could be rejected by Mercy, with fear/panic providing Mercy the means for resisting.