Author Topic: [Mercy #3] Iron Kissed Discussion  (Read 88881 times)

Perkinator

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 44
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2008, 03:41:01 pm »
It was appropriate, sometimes bad things happen to good people. What played so very well, was how the little turd Tim used the cup to control Mercy's behavior, which is what she feared about Adam.

Grey Drakkon

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 194
    • Ranasp's Deviant Art Page
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2008, 06:51:20 pm »
O.K., I really like how she made it so it wasn't Sam, that was handled very well.  I don't like her with Adam.  Not because of how he's behaved, I actually liked most of what he was doing in the book, but because of his pack magic hijacking Mercy's will.  He wound up making her into a lust slave AGAIN in this book and it seemed he had no control over it.  I just really don't like that his leadership magic can overpower Mercy's will when she's fully fit. (when she's already loopy from other magic and exhausted, sure that's perfectly fine, but when she's on her game?)  It just really rubs me the wrong way that her willpower can be negated like that, and that it can  happen again in the future. 
   Now, if it was just that his leadership magic was going haywire because of the "weakness" left in the pack and now that things have been decided one way or another it's gone back to normal and he can't override Mercy anymore than that makes me feel better.  (run on sentence anyone?) 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

Has

  • Global Moderator
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1987
    • Patricia Briggs Fans groups facebook page
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2008, 05:54:29 am »
I dont think that Mercy will ever allow Adam to overpower her at all although she is scared of it. Its more of the fact that she wants to please him and submitting to him will do that and your right its more of a lust thing but whose to say that Adam doesnt feel the same way. At the end of BB he was willing to let her to make all the moves because of the very same thing.

However  she has stood up for herself  and she has done so many times, and with even more dominant wolves. If you look at the scene when Jesse came home after her attack ( Mercy was the only one who didnt submit to Adam's willpower and the shower scene although she was tired she knew that she chose not to fight him partly because she liked being taken care of ;) But she also didn't want to rile him up for something that wasn't his fault) she stood up to him and he was on EDGE. You have to be a very brave or really stupid about pricking a werewolf's temper let alone an Alpha ;D. If it was seen to be his fault well Mercy wouldnt stand down easily at all .
I can see a huge argument brewing about the bill of the repair house- Adam being the old fashion guy he is wont allow his mate pay for the repairs and Mercy you know she isnt going to let that go its a debt she feels that she owes.  ;)

Also another factor is that Adam will probably be even more careful with his dominance/Alpha power too especially after her ordeal- so unless shes in danger  or hurt like after Tim's attack I think he will try to reign in his powers too. And I think they both like riling each other, you can tell they enjoy it- to Adam its a challenge and to Mercy its to see him lose control although they both know they wont ever cross a line.
I think as a couple they really are well matched because they are equal not in the sense of magical abilities or strengths but in terms of people - Mercy wont ever allow Adam to be too regimented/staid in his ways and he will ensure she doesnt go too deep into trouble. Its not going to be plain sailing and there are issues from the inside and out but I am looking forward to seeing this evolve over the series.

I think that is important, when you have a relationship and there inequality it wont really work unless you choose to submit to the more powerful partner or accept the situation.  I also  think you are right about the pack weakness too, I have a theory that this is true with werewolves mating. You  get the sense that Adam's ex couldnt handle the pack and Adam being an Alpha, although he tried to protect her from the worse it probably exacerbated the situation.
But I have a feeling that she just couldnt cope with violence and refused to accept that side of things which is why she turned to bitterness and vindictiveness to get back at him. Its a similar situation with Bran and Leah as well I think and maybe the problem is that both wolf and man need to accept and love their partners, although there are probably mated/married couples in similar circumstances who are quite happy. But it seems to me, that if a werewolf is powerfully dominant maybe its more difficult to be content when only one side of him accepts a partner?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 10:20:58 am by Has »
-You aren't scary.  You are a good rabid fan-Courtesy of another rabid bookpusher called E something ;D

Ceylonna

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2008, 09:39:09 am »
How do people feel about Sam's original interest in Mercy and Pedophilia?  When reading the books, nothing really struck me as odd or gross, but thinking about the stuff latter made me wonder.  We have Sam, a much, much, older adult basically "grooming" a 14 year old girl into falling in love with him.

I realize that he waited until she was a little older and more sexually mature before furthering the romance. I also know that in Samuel's time that age was marriageable.  There just seems something wrong about it-- he was definitely using his adult experience to persuade Mercy when she was at an impressionable age.  I think this is part of the reason Bran stepped in -- Mercy was his responsibility and it was fast heading toward what could easily be considered abuse. (Replace Sam with a 30 or 40 year old human and see how you'd react then.) 

I like how in IB Sam recognizes his error.  I'm also glad they didn't get together.  I think in the long run I'd have trouble with how things originally started. (In addition to other reasons people have mentioned for this being a poor match.)

What do other people think? Am I reading too much into it here?

Has

  • Global Moderator
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1987
    • Patricia Briggs Fans groups facebook page
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2008, 10:04:14 am »
I think it was more about desperation of his desire to have healthy children- like Patty said he is a VERY patient hunter. But I do see your point about the age thing - I dont think Sam would ever consider that it was more like I have to stake my claim before other wolves do.  Although you could tell from that conversation with Mercy that  he knew it was wrong that he targeted her in such a way but he saw her as a lifeline.

Also another thing to factor in IK Mercy was a totally different person, obviously at a young age she was, but if she mated with Sam - I think she would never be the independent woman that she is today. And if she did choose Sam it wouldn't have worked out because he would never allow her to do what she wanted i.e kill the vampires. With Adam who would definitely argue with her about doing something like that would accept that she needed to those things- its who she is and he understands that.

My hope now is that he can work through his issues- I think having kids may not be enough for him but I am glad that he sees Mercy as pack and that he is far suited as a packmate than mate mate as Mercy stated in IK :)

But this also raises the question that Mercy is seen to be desirable to other wolves in terms of her fertility- Sam claimed her at a young age and so did Adam shortly before MC. Adam could have just stated to his wolves that she shouldn't be hassled he is the alpha, but he claimed her and he was just as gunshy about embarking on another relationship after the hell he went through with his ex. Although I dont think Adam wants Mercy because she could bear healthy kids - but maybe that was the catalyst about him realising his feelings towards Mercy perhaps?
-You aren't scary.  You are a good rabid fan-Courtesy of another rabid bookpusher called E something ;D

Ellyll

  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1017
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2008, 10:57:10 am »
Can Mercy even be in Sam's 'pack' if she's mated to Adam?
Dear Lord, be good to me.  The sea is so wide, and my boat is so small.

You let a wolf save your life, and you pay and you pay, and you pay...

Ellyll

  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1017
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2008, 10:59:43 am »
O.K., I really like how she made it so it wasn't Sam, that was handled very well.  I don't like her with Adam.  Not because of how he's behaved, I actually liked most of what he was doing in the book, but because of his pack magic hijacking Mercy's will.  He wound up making her into a lust slave AGAIN in this book and it seemed he had no control over it.  I just really don't like that his leadership magic can overpower Mercy's will when she's fully fit. (when she's already loopy from other magic and exhausted, sure that's perfectly fine, but when she's on her game?)  It just really rubs me the wrong way that her willpower can be negated like that, and that it can  happen again in the future. 
   Now, if it was just that his leadership magic was going haywire because of the "weakness" left in the pack and now that things have been decided one way or another it's gone back to normal and he can't override Mercy anymore than that makes me feel better.  (run on sentence anyone?) 
 

Thank you for putting it so well, Grey; I have the same problem.  I'm looking forward to seeing how it all works out in the end, but for right now, it kind of bugs me, too.
Dear Lord, be good to me.  The sea is so wide, and my boat is so small.

You let a wolf save your life, and you pay and you pay, and you pay...

Demi

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 49
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2008, 11:52:49 am »
but because of his pack magic hijacking Mercy's will.  He wound up making her into a lust slave AGAIN in this book and it seemed he had no control over it.

Sorry i dont´find this in the book, maybe i understood you wrong.
May you please give me the pages which brought you to this conclousion?
I only have the scene at the end of the book, when she is weak, hurt and all that,
where he stills her and gives her the drink again.
I surley missed something so thanks for help.

( sry for grammar it´is late in germany now, and i was the half day with the
dictonary reading the book( again), and i am tired now)
Addicted to the tales from the Bard of Hurog

Taranis

  • Guest
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2008, 12:13:20 pm »
I don't like her with Adam.  Not because of how he's behaved, I actually liked most of what he was doing in the book, but because of his pack magic hijacking Mercy's will.  He wound up making her into a lust slave AGAIN in this book and it seemed he had no control over it.  I just really don't like that his leadership magic can overpower Mercy's will when she's fully fit. (when she's already loopy from other magic and exhausted, sure that's perfectly fine, but when she's on her game?)  It just really rubs me the wrong way that her willpower can be negated like that, and that it can  happen again in the future. 
   Now, if it was just that his leadership magic was going haywire because of the "weakness" left in the pack and now that things have been decided one way or another it's gone back to normal and he can't override Mercy anymore than that makes me feel better.  (run on sentence anyone?) 

Now, I have to say I'm prejudice because I've always been in the Adam camp ::) but I didn't get that vibe in the book.  My understanding (and I read this until five in the morning, so my clarity might be off! ;D) was that yes, Adam wasn't in full control because of the weakness in the pack.  Mercy was also more suseptable because she wanted him too.  But near the end when Adam was holding her he said that if she could fight off the magic of the cup and all the other things, then she was strong enough to trump his power over her.  Plus, she did end up chosing him anyway, so I think she was at peace with the decision, and I don't think Mercy would have submitted if she knew she was still under his thrall, especially since it scared her so much.  Plus, now that the pack is healed, I don't think the issue would arise again.

Awahili

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 0
  • For every soul there is a spirit to guide it.
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2008, 12:40:04 pm »
Can I just say that it was handled fantastically!  I finished the book in under five hours (I think that may be a record for me, I'm not sure).  I loved the way she and Sam reconciled, and it'll be interesting to see that in the next book, especially since he considers her "pack" now. 

I, too, have always been firmly in the Adam camp, but I love the character of Samuel as well.  I think it was handled beautifully, bringing her trauma to the fore without beating us over the head with inane self-pity every other sentence.  But then again, can anyone really see Mercy wallowing in self-pity for too long?  It's the mark of a strong woman to make the conscious decision to love so soon after something like that, and I love Mercy's character more for it.  I just hope Adam realizes the can of worms he's opened.   :D

On another, completely random note, I now think that Ben has risen to take Warren's place as "favorite Columbia Basin Pack Member."  Of course, Warren's still a really close second.  Cheers!
"Life is for the alive, my dear!"  - Sweeney Todd

"There's a hole in the world like a great black pit and the vermin of the world inhabit it and its morals aren't worth what a pig could spit and it goes by the name of London."  - Sweeney Todd

Demi

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 49
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2008, 05:37:19 pm »
O.K., I really like how she made it so it wasn't Sam, that was handled very well.  I don't like her with Adam.  Not because of how he's behaved, I actually liked most of what he was doing in the book, but because of his pack magic hijacking Mercy's will.  He wound up making her into a lust slave AGAIN in this book and it seemed he had no control over it.  I just really don't like that his leadership magic can overpower Mercy's will when she's fully fit. (when she's already loopy from other magic and exhausted, sure that's perfectly fine, but when she's on her game?)  It just really rubs me the wrong way that her willpower can be negated like that, and that it can  happen again in the future. 
   Now, if it was just that his leadership magic was going haywire because of the "weakness" left in the pack and now that things have been decided one way or another it's gone back to normal and he can't override Mercy anymore than that makes me feel better.  (run on sentence anyone?) 

It´s 3.30 oclock in the night here. Can´t sleep. So i read and searched what you could have meant.
I did not find it but, i found a possible answer.

In the book Mercy think´s at one point, that she never gave in in love.
The whole book is written from her perspective. It is subjective.

Her fear was ( imho) to give in in love, in Bloodbound, she tried to give Adams magic the reason,
why she was so attracted to him.
But later she realized it was her too. She wanted that. Her fear was to  love Adam.

Because she love´s him, she would do things, she never would have done for anyone else,
not even Bran. Sure she feels his magic, but she did not have to follow like a sheep.
The only point she could not resist him was when she was badly hurt in any way, at the
end of the book. But in any other point that was not the problem ( at least i did not find it,
but my english is really not good, so if i misunderstood something or translated false,
please tell me someone).

Beeing overhelmed by someone you love, is no pack magic, but it is easier to tell
yourself so, if you always wanted to be undependent. Adam showed her that she can
trust him. And he did it in a really lovley way i think. I am happy with her choice,
she did it right ( for me).

try to sleep again now :)
Good night.
Addicted to the tales from the Bard of Hurog

jenniwee

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #86 on: January 05, 2008, 01:43:18 pm »
I very much agree with Demi.  I would like to see where you are getting the idea that Adam overwhelmed her with magic, GD.  I really didn't see it anywhere but the end of the book, where, IMO, there were extreme extenuating circumstances. 

First, there are always going to be times that someone will make decisions for you, about you, when you are not in any condition to be making them for yourself.  In some of those instances, a man will make them for a woman.  It doesn't make him a chauvinist, or her weak, it is just necessary sometimes.  Usually when something traumatic has happened and the primary person cannot make (rational) decisions for themselves.  In this case, it was whether or not he should allow Mercy's fear of the cup keep her from accessing its healing powers, thereby causing her to be a cripple for life.  That he used his magic to force the decision on her is little different than when a husband makes decisions for his wife in a hospital, which at the time she may not like, but in the end, she appreciates. 

Second, you need to remember that at the time, Mercy is grateful when Adam uses his magic since he grants her a measure of peace, that allows her to rest until the effect of the cup begins to fade and she is able to come to terms with her rape as herself.

Third, Adam only does so due to the extreme circumstances.  In fact, he is incredibly reluctant to force his will on her, because he worries that he will damage her.  Only secondary is his concern that she will never forgive him.

Fourth, these are not people.  OK, they are, but as Patty points out in the scene between Ben and Adam (LOVED that) they are also wolves and wolves react differently than their human counterparts.  Even Mercy, being coyote, has some pack instinct.  So, while for Adam, the man, to influence a woman he loves is repugnant, Adam, the wolf, is not necessarily bound by those same rules.  His instinct is different, as is Mercy's.  The fact that she is attracted to him and loves him, merely makes the influence stronger.  I find it interesting that we make allowances for numerous other wolfly instincts, but not this one.

jenniwee

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 205
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #87 on: January 05, 2008, 02:06:09 pm »
I think the idea of Sam and pedophilia was explored on the old Who will Mercy choose? thread.  (When did the threads change?  You go away for two weeks and everything changes. Sigh)  I think several comments were made about shotguns and such, but overall, we agreed that Sam was not sooo icky.

I have to say that I loved the way that Patty handled the Sam/Adam thing.  When she began talking about Mercy's two decisions, I was like, oh no, what's she going to do?  But I liked that the two decisions were exclusive.  It makes her decision not to be with Sam more meaningful.  It's not just "Oh, I like Adam more" but rather, "I don't love you like that, and you don't love me like that either."  Plus, she doesn't decimate Sam, which I appreciated. (even though I am Team Adam  ;)).

As to the rape, that was really hard to read.  There were parts I kinda skimmed, so I'm going to have to reread soon.  But I agree with Shy, for me the most awful part of the rape was Mercy's reaction to it.  It's Mercy who takes a hit and bounces up to say "What, is that all you got?"  To have her react that way, which I know is totally realistic for a rape victim, was absolutely heartwrenching.  Though I did like when Ben beat Adam over the head with the truth.  Cause 1) I think it is true that alot of guys don't "get" rape, and how it really affects women, and 2) it was just an awesome Ben scene, cause now you really can like him, and not be trying to find a reason to excuse his behavior. 

Spryte

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 186
  • Wheeeeeeeeee!
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #88 on: January 05, 2008, 06:24:42 pm »
I got IK at eight thirty last night. I started reading it in the car (no, I was not driving... I don't even have my learner's permit yet) kept reading it as I got out of the car, walked up to my room, locked the door, and I finished it at about 5:45. I know I should have gone to sleep, but I couldn't make myself. I guess I'll just have to reread the whole thing to make sure I retained it all. What a horrible thing  ::).

I loved it.

It made me laugh and it made me cry.

My favorite part (and the one where I cried the hardest) was when Mercy was still in coyote form after the rape, and it was saying how there was always a pack member with her... Daryll, Aurielle, Honey, Peter, Warren, Ben... It really goes to show how supportive the pack is, and how even the individuals who have had some mile wide nasty streaks before are really good people.

The part where Adam hugged Ben was especially......
Even though I have lived my entire life in America, the no-touch country, it has always irked me that Americans don't make physical contact with people more.... especially when sometimes the thing most needed is just a big hug. It makes me incredibly sad. So I really loved it when Adam showed Ben that it was OK. And right on for Ben telling Adam what was what.

On a lighter note... Sam the musician. I like it. And I am especially glad that the whole Who-should-Mercy-pick thing was resolved in a way that meant both Adam and Sam are still part of the story, and that there is no enmity between them. I'm glad Mercy picked Adam, but that doesn't mean I wanted Sam to be hurt. I kind of like him as a "pack member" of Mercy's. :D
We never really grow up, we just learn how to act in public... for the most part...

Ellyll

  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1017
Re: Iron Kissed Discussion
« Reply #89 on: January 05, 2008, 06:29:51 pm »
LOL.  I'm sorry, Spryte, but you remind me of me.  I have a lot of friends who make fun of me for reading while I ride in the car, cross the street, eat my meals - you get it. 

I'm glad you enjoyed it so much.  :)
Dear Lord, be good to me.  The sea is so wide, and my boat is so small.

You let a wolf save your life, and you pay and you pay, and you pay...