Author Topic: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?  (Read 184994 times)

little gray wolf

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #300 on: July 12, 2011, 02:30:19 pm »
My point was that if he disagrees, then he can just give an order and the debate would be closed
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alan

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #301 on: July 12, 2011, 04:35:12 pm »
 :-' Yeah, there is that.
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little gray wolf

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #302 on: July 13, 2011, 07:27:30 am »
maybe if Sam and Charles argue with him. Anna could help
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alan

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #303 on: July 13, 2011, 04:55:26 pm »
Yeah she is technically outside of the whole rank thing. 
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little gray wolf

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #304 on: July 14, 2011, 02:47:47 am »
my point is that she wouldn't have to listen to Bran's comand
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DebF

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #305 on: February 13, 2013, 12:33:02 pm »
Hi, neewbie here, so apologies if I'm covering ground that's already been raked over.

I've just skimmed through most of the thread, and while there are a number of references to un-mated female wolves being at the bottom of the pack, when I read Silver Borne, I took notes. I then returned it, so I can't guarantee they're accurate. Apologies for any transcription errors, but here's what I wrote down about the fight (spoilers!)

Mercy points out another problem. Paul doesn't stand within three of Adam.
Adam, Mercy, Darryl, Auriele, Warren, Honey, Paul.
The official code of conduct for the pack (which Ben has to memorise before he joined the pack - does that make it specific to EACH pack?) says challenge 'within three men'. It doesn't say the challenger has to be a man.
Mercy also says she has too high a stake, and passes the decision to Darryl, Auriele and Warren.
Darryl says that women are too precious to risk in challenges, Auriele says that would be true if they were child-bearing, but they aren't.
...

Her mate Peter is submissive, so Honey was considered the lowest member of the pack except for Mary Jo. (Notes End)


That begs the question: Does the ruling on MJ's involvement in the fight mean that the pack have realised that Honey has her own place in the pack, independent of Peter? Or is that just how Mercy is seeing the dominance relationships?

My main question though, is:
When I read 'River Marked', I found this:
"He (Darryl) and his mate, Auriele, had become Jesse’s de facto babysitters when her mother left because female
werewolves were few and far between: Adam’s pack only had two."

SO does that mean that something happened to Mary Jo and/or Honey between the two books? Did I miss something? Was the statement meant to be that Adam's pack had only two female werewolves APART from Auriele?

DebF

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #306 on: February 13, 2013, 12:35:23 pm »
Also there was some earlier discussion about Omegas and where they fit into the Pack structure.
Not sure of the etiquette about posting large quotes, but I found this incredibly fascinating and revealing:

In 'Hunting Ground' where Anna and the young Austrian Omega have a conversation in the office,
He says 'I get that I am the bottom of the pack - but how am I different from the submissive wolves?'
Anna: 'Did they tell you that you were on the bottom?'
'Not exactly'
Anna: 'Good, because you aren't. You are outside the pack structure. You're the only one who can defy the Alpha. ...
Most werewolves have a built-in meter that tells them whether a wolf is dominant to them or not. If the meter doesn't tell them right away.. well, they usually fight it out'
'This I have seen'
Anna: 'Right then. That's something you and I are missing. ... I can still tell - even with humans - who is in charge and who isn't. But it doesn't have anything to do with their relationship with me.'
..
Anna: 'Dominant wolves - their instincts tell them to protect with violence and control their environment. They are ready to kill. The more dominant the wolf, the quicker he is to kill. Less dominant wolves cede the authority to protect to the more dominant wolf. An Alpha is the ultimate control freak, ready to kill anyone who threatens his pack. He protects the weaker from the strong and suffers no defiance of his will'
'Submissive wolves are the kinder, gentler wolves. They are missing the killing instinct. That doesn't mean they won't kill under the right circumstances, just that it is not their first answer to every problem. They don't need to control everyone around them. With a submissive wolf, a dominant wolf will relax because the lesser wolf is no threat'.

>>> Here's the kicker <<<
'An Omega wolf is an Alpha wolf who is extremely zen.'
...
'No one gives Omegas any crap either, and our job is to protect our packs, even from themselves. The zen part comes because we don't have to kill anyone to get our way.'
'Alpha, Minus most of the tough stuff, and our magic is different. With our magic, we make our pack happy'.
...
'Omega doesn't mean weak'

ElefiNecol

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #307 on: February 13, 2013, 05:22:06 pm »
My main question though, is:
When I read 'River Marked', I found this:
"He (Darryl) and his mate, Auriele, had become Jesse’s de facto babysitters when her mother left because female
werewolves were few and far between: Adam’s pack only had two."

SO does that mean that something happened to Mary Jo and/or Honey between the two books? Did I miss something? Was the statement meant to be that Adam's pack had only two female werewolves APART from Auriele?

Welcome! You can find the answer to your question in the Corrections/Mistakes section of the WeresFAQ -  It's actually an error and there are indeed still 3.

Patti L.

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #308 on: February 13, 2013, 11:02:32 pm »
The question of where Honey stands in the pack hasn't been resolved yet, nor Mary Jo.  Curiously, nobody seems to feel a need to figure out where Auriele stands...
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Prince of Pain

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #309 on: April 03, 2013, 03:47:24 am »
The question of where Honey stands in the pack hasn't been resolved yet, nor Mary Jo.  Curiously, nobody seems to feel a need to figure out where Auriele stands...

There is the Pack Leader, the Pack Rivals and those so far down the Dominance scale that they are relatively unimportant... until they come out of no where with a knife to the back!!!



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Patti L.

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #310 on: April 03, 2013, 08:06:40 am »
Yeah, but they're not going to be able to hold the position, usually.  Arthur of Britain was an exception.
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DandelionWine

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #311 on: April 08, 2013, 04:01:02 am »
Very interesting point about Auriele's status!  She's not only high in the pack because of Daryl's position, but because she's a dominant personality herself...  Question is, could she keep a fairly high level (if not the second) without Daryl there if it became accepted for women to do so?  Would women WANT to climb higher in the pack?  I'd say so, and Auriele just might.  Mary Jo probably would, Honey not so much.  She's happy being lower in the pack, perhaps because it's how she was raised as a human, it sounds like she is older than either Mary Jo or Auriele, and she's been a wolf longer than the others so that's the tradition she's accustomed to.  (or so it seems to me)

I'm thinking that the mate rules are actually good for the most part, because if any pack member is upset or worried about the positon of their mate, it's going to upset the whole balance and someone could challenge say Mercy, or any other Alpha's mate to unbalance the pack as a whole.   Same for any other pack member's mate really.  I guess that's a consideration in the decision process of mating with another wolf.  Honey who is a pretty dominant personality seemed plenty happy with Peter and many other combinations are as likely.  Perhaps the rule needs to apply in both directions though, whichever of the mated pair is higher?

It seems to me that the rules for single females are likely to change gradually though.  Bran is plenty able to make sweeping rules, but he doesn't seem to be all that eager to micro-manage things.  He's a dictator who seems to pick his battles well and if some pack starts to allow single females more leeway, (this doesn't have to be Adam's pack don't forget) that Alpha can enforce his will within his pack, some who don't like it can leave, and some who hear about it might petition to join that pack because they might like it.  I'm thinking that's kind of interesting!

Pack position depends on more than physical ability, and if Honey doesn't want to participate in the jockeying for position, she can stay where she's at now as an un-mated female, which was approximately where she was at as Peter's mate.  I think she's going to feel judged if Mary Jo rises on her own, but that is an unfair thing IMO.  I know plenty of older women who are personalities to be reckoned with, and strong physically too, but we are all products of our upbringing, and though she's a strong personality and a physically strong person/wolf, if she doesn't have the drive, that's all there is to do about it.  I suspect she'll find she's more able to compete than she knows, but that doesn't mean she's going to like it or want to do anything about it.  I'd be ok with that.  Testosterone poisoning isn't a factor for us after all.   :-whistle 
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Patti L.

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #312 on: April 08, 2013, 07:38:49 am »
Remember that testosterone & estrogen aren't that far apart chemically, though. ;)
It might turn out more like how couples decide on religious matters for the household, eventually.  Each pair just sits down and thrashes it out for themselves, presents that decision to the pack/world and calls it done.
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Mel

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Why not an Female Alpha
« Reply #313 on: August 26, 2013, 07:31:40 am »
Hello guys. I’ve gone through the frequently asked questions and hopefully this is a fresh topic for you!
As already noted the European wolves have no Alpha of Alphas, the wolves left are not the most dominant. So why not have a new dominant female appear and shake the ranks up a bit. I’ve chosen some female figures from ancient history to show that women can be powerful, bloodthirsty & great leaders too. Wolf packs always have a dominant pair, one of which will be replaced in cases of fatality. But who says that among werewolves it should always be a man as the individual leader? Yes the females are rare but surely a strong willed individual with a healthy dose of craftiness would be able to rule? Most of the women below died at a ripe old age.
Boudicca AD 60 England
Empress Wu 625AD China
Tomyris 530BC Iran
Hatshepsut 1479BC Egypt
Catherine the Great 1762 Russia
Queen Nzinga 1583 Angola
Empress Wu 625AD China
I hope this question is not deemed as a “spoiler”, love the books & this is my first ever forum so sorry for being so lengthy!

DandelionWine

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #314 on: September 07, 2013, 06:24:13 am »
Plenty of females have filled the shoes of despots over the ages, but werewolves have their own customs and history, not to mention the whole pack magic thing.   I suspect the changes would need to be much more gradual, especially in Europe where traditions haven't moved as much as in the US where Bran has been somewhat laid back about changes within packs.  He doesn't obviously push them, but doesn't block them either.  If Adam has Warren in a fairly high spot in his pack, that's ok.  If he brings a Coyote shifter into the pack, that's ok since the magic allowed it.  He balances the outside influences with tradition and I kinda think he does do a little gentle influencing. 

I actually doubt Patty wants to get too far removed from her storyline so the focus doesn't get too diluted, though I guess I'd like to hear word about a few other packs' experiences have changed as far as modern stuff goes... but the focus is on Adam's packs in the MT books, and lately on how the general public is getting along with the packs in the A&O books.  (also on Charles and Anna and the Marrok pack of course too)...

I know we like to discuss a lot of things here, but really, getting too far afield in the books would not be true to the storylines!  Going to Europe with this would be an awful stretch.
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