Author Topic: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering  (Read 188377 times)

Grey Drakkon

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2007, 05:11:43 pm »
The only case that I haven't been annoyed with it is in the book I'm reading now, the Harper trilogy by Patricia McKillip.  Most of the people in there are riddlers, so being handed the answer just is not done.  Fortunately the main character isn't stupid, and far smarter than me, so he figures out everything and more.

   I don't mind the "I'm not going to spell everything out for you" thing, especially if that person can give a clue or two when you're hung up on it.  Its when they omit HUGE things that really could save your ass that I get very annoyed.     
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

jenglows

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2007, 06:19:16 pm »
Urrrrrrr. :: shudders ::  Keeping someone in ignorance "for their own good" SO rubs me the wrong way. 
yep, yep :)
If knowledge is power than keeping others in ignorance is just a way to maintain power over them.  No doubt Bran lets little info out as one of his many, many tools for keeping his power base tight. I don't think he's malicous, but possiblibly hung up on keeping his authority over everyone he is involved with.

jenniwee

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2007, 08:01:27 am »
I think with Bran it's the were control freak thing raising its head again.  Besides, we know that any sign of weakness could lead to a challenge.  It must be nice that the next two most powerful wolves are his sons.  Bran is a bit of a paradox though.  I like him alot and I'd trust him with my life, but I'm not sure how far I'd trust him with anything else.  I think he has had to consider the needs of his people for so long, that sometimes he causes inadverdant damage to individuals, even those he cares about.  It's the whole greater good thing.  I really hope Patty gives us more answers about Bran SOON.  Before we make ourselves crazy with speculation  ;).

Grey Drakkon

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2007, 08:16:06 am »
:: detests the "greater good" :: 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

jackie

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2007, 03:35:54 pm »
Sorry guys - greater good is a real concern.  Just like individuals are.   It's in the choices made that drama and good stories lurk.

Patti L.

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2007, 08:04:16 pm »
yuh.  Just ask Spock. :D
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jenglows

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2007, 07:27:22 am »
Grey Drakkon has a valid POV, one that I agree with :)   - Some of the largest atrocities in history have been perpetrated in the name of "The Greater Good".  It's a view that is developed for the individual, very few causes are truly for the "greater human good", everything else is "the Greater Good for MY group of people - screw YOUR group of people".


jenniwee

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2007, 08:25:46 am »
I think there are two aspects to the "greater good" argument

1)  The natural give and take within any organized society.  Within any group of people, everyone must sacrifice a bit so that the group can survive.  Be it monetarily, in the form of taxes, or physically, in the from of military service, or, if you look at more "primitive" cultures, by working in groups to hunt or pooling resources to survive a harsh winter, you get the idea.  It's not perfect but it permits humans to live together in a community.

2)  When arguments for the "greater good" severely repress one group, for the advantage of another.  Ie. Pre-Revolution France (or France during the Revolution, for that matter), British Colonial India, or the American post-WWII economic policies toward South America.  And we all know that list can go on and on and on.

I think Bran belongs mostly within the first group.  He's controlling and not always forthcoming because he has to maintain order among the weres.  I think for Bran the occasional damage to an individual, as long as that damage is not permanant, rates pretty low when compared to the damage the weres could do if they were not properly governed.

jenglows

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2007, 09:39:58 am »
I agree that Bran makes decisions to secure his control over the Were's, but he's still coming from a place of "if it's what I need for my group".  When an individual is the primary decision maker "for the greater good" choices tend to be more to the detriment of others. Opposed to small group dynamics developing cooperation (your option #1) for a group need.  The FGG argument is available for every war and most other conflicts, those decisions are made at a smaller scale by people every day.  But those actions DO impact others and when folks assume that because it's "for the Greater Good" that makes it Okay, is my problem with it.

 In the Mercy's world, the human's made a FGG decision to put the Fae in "reservations", does that really protect the humans?  Is it good for the Fae?  Is it really For the Greater Good, or just someone's idea of The Greater Good?  Similarly, who knows how Bran's individual decisions have affected the human population or Mercy specifically.

 :) :) I love these kind of discussions!  ;D

jackie

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2007, 10:54:10 am »
It it because we continue to have these discussions that FGG descisions have even a prayer of being even a shading of gray about them.  Decisions are rarely all win win or win loose(where the loose side is getting what they "deserve").  If decisions that affected a lot of people were that easy for people who want to "do good" to make; we would all be running for president - or mayor.  And we'd have a lot less good fiction to read. And less really interesting debates. ::)

jenglows

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2007, 11:25:54 am »
 ;D yeah, The debate about real leaders/politicians actually making their decisions FGG or other reasons is something else ;) This is one of my favorite quotes ...

 Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
- Douglas Adams


jenniwee

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2007, 10:50:15 am »
So, the other night in one of my lit courses, we were discussing Foucault and power structures and the Penopticon, yada, yada, and someone brought up the role of the trickster in Native American culture.  (It fit with the book we were reading).  She was saying how the trickster, which in some cultures is represented by the coyote, lives outside of the society and serves to critique the culture and question those in power, so that balance is maintain within that society.  I go to thinking about Mercy (because in any discussion of Foucault you have to let your mind wander occasionally  ;D) and about how well that discription seemed to fit her.  I thought that if walkers fulfilled this role in NA culture and Bran knew about this, he really could have been trying to protect Mercy from a culture that resolves any kind of critique or challenge in a fairly violent way.  It also explains why she is not terribly vulnerable to many of the magics which she encounters.

Zealith

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2007, 12:12:18 pm »
Wow, I really like this idea.
.

Iris101

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2007, 12:16:34 pm »
me too ;D

jackie

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Re: Bran and Leah
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2007, 02:56:42 pm »
Beautifully put.