The Hurog Family

Patricia Briggs' Books => Mercy Thompson | A&O Books Board => The Weres => Published Books => Topic started by: Patti L. on February 26, 2012, 12:44:11 pm

Title: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on February 26, 2012, 12:44:11 pm
Okay, if you have read it and want to discuss plot without spoiling it for those still speculating ahead, this is the place!  Remember to use the black bars of doom, even though it's the spoiler thread. 
Quick reminder, the button is found above the smileys toward the right end, or can be manually entered by typing - with square brackets [] the following (spoiler)before the revelation, and (/spoiler) after it.

So...New Fae nations within the US borders!  Are the fae elsewhere doing the same?  How about Europe and Canada?  What about Zee, or Ari & Samuel?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 05, 2012, 11:15:24 pm
Who was it that suggested the Olde Towne Alpha was being "Wolfy-wolf"/macho about greeting the bigger-badder wolf coming into his territory?  Hit the nail on the head, there...
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 05, 2012, 11:31:21 pm
I like him, though, a lot.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 05, 2012, 11:33:45 pm
I would agree. I've already made a picture of him to go in the cannon.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 05, 2012, 11:38:46 pm
??? You're going to shoot him somewhere?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 05, 2012, 11:44:59 pm
Sorry, it's getting late. LOL
*canon.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 05, 2012, 11:49:41 pm
Will we ever see another Alpha of his caliber?  O)
I am left with several questions about the bad guys, and I don't think we're going to get answers in future stories.  Patty may tell us, but unless she comes back to this from a different angle, I don't think we're going to find out either how they selected their fey/werewolf victims, or how the horned lord got into Lizzie Beauclaire's apartment with no sign of a break in.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 06, 2012, 12:05:04 am
One of them were able to pick locks maybe?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 12:10:46 am
The problem with that is unless it was the invisible one - who doesn't strike me as smart enough for that, nor having fine motor skills - they would have showed up on the surveillance system.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 06, 2012, 12:13:17 am
Maybe he could expand his invisability? Or maybe the door had a key more like what you see in hotels, a swipe card? I feel like those would be fairly easy to fake.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 12:15:26 am
ROFL.  Check some crime fiction, or better yet, facts.  There's a reason they're shifting to those.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 06, 2012, 12:18:29 am
Still seems like they would be. Just me not trusting computers I guess. If they had regular keys still, the owner of the building probably had a copy. Maybe they were able to get a hold of that copy and make a copy?

As for how they selected their supernatural victims, I think they probably used that database. After all, that child was in the database for some reason, though he wasn't actually fae.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on March 06, 2012, 11:01:04 am
Must stay away from black bars.

I was bad. My book did not arrive in the mail yet so I pressed one click at amazon 9) :-[
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 06, 2012, 11:08:46 am
I nearly went crazy when my nook wouldn't download - for some reason it's got major lag.  But my "nook for PC" downloaded it when I flipped on my laptop, so I did a lot of reading last night. 

... I think I just heard the professor show up for my meeting, so I will discuss later. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: ppbwashu on March 06, 2012, 12:01:27 pm
Not touching the black bars until I've read the book!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 12:02:14 pm
Wise.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Nifty on March 06, 2012, 01:31:21 pm
Just finished.  Really liked it a lot!  It's one of my favorites of the Mercyverse books.  Do wonder what this portends for the upcoming Mercyverse books, though. Will Zee and Uncle Mike stick around in the "real world" or will they have to join the other fae in the reservations.  What about the half-fae, like Tad?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 01:36:50 pm
Just finished.  Really liked it a lot!  It's one of my favorites of the Mercyverse books.  Do wonder what this portends for the upcoming Mercyverse books, though. Will Zee and Uncle Mike stick around in the "real world" or will they have to join the other fae in the reservations.  What about the half-fae, like Tad?

Among others.  What about Ariana, Phin, the - was she a troll? - banker who Mercy consulted at one point?  All the fae who are in the U.S. Government?  Are they - since the Fae have declared war, more or less - subject to penalties for spies?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 06, 2012, 02:02:35 pm
My impression was that every fae, so that would include Zee and Uncle Mike and all the fae in hiding, had returned to the reservations. Saddly, I've already lent my book to someone else, so I can't double check right now. I'd also like to know what is happening to Mercy's Garage right now. I'm sure Zee was running it while she was too injured too, but she still is and he would have needed to return to the reservation.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Nifty on March 06, 2012, 02:03:49 pm
Ariana, Phin, the - was she a troll? - banker who Mercy consulted at one point?  All the fae who are in the U.S. Government?  Are they - since the Fae have declared war, more or less - subject to penalties for spies?

I don't agree that the Fae have declared war, more or less.  My impression, based on Beauclair's speech, is that they're no longer going to pretend to be cooperative.  I think the Fae have tried for the last couple centuries to "go along" -- because it suited their purposes to do so? -- and I get the impression they're no longer interested in doing that.  Like...the mask has come off.  Be afraid, be very afraid. Now, the fae are few compared to the humans.  They're long-lived and more resilient, but they don't breed easily or quickly.  So it would not necessarily behoove them to declare war on a more populous nation.  I see them taking a more stealthy approach to self-preservation.

But yes...there are dozens/hundreds of fae living amongst the humans, un-outed as fae.  Do they simply uproot their lives now and disappear into Underhill?

On a slightly different topic, is Gwyn ap Lugh a "real" fairy? (By that, I mean is he someone who can be found in current faery lore, like Baba Yaga, or is he a persona of Patty's own creation?) Also, what was the significance of the 59 black horses?  And the significance of the rue?

(Fun with spoiler bars!!)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Nifty on March 06, 2012, 02:05:00 pm
My impression was that every fae, so that would include Zee and Uncle Mike and all the fae in hiding, had returned to the reservations. Saddly, I've already lent my book to someone else, so I can't double check right now. I'd also like to know what is happening to Mercy's Garage right now. I'm sure Zee was running it while she was too injured too, but she still is and he would have needed to return to the reservation.

Zealith, the Beauclair's final declaration about the fae takes place 3 months after the final showdown between the Heuters and the good guys. Maybe Mercy is back on her feet?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 02:15:20 pm
You are likely correct on the last item in reply to Zealith, Nifty, but Gwyn ap Lugh, and yes, he's been around a long time; he's a character in either "Deep Secrets" or the sequel "The Merlin Conspiracy" by Diana Wynn Jones, did specifically say on page 291 that "They have no authority over us.  From this moment forward we are our own sovereign nation, claiming as our own those lands ceded to us.  We will treat with you, as one hostile nation treats with another, until such time as it seems us good to do otherwise."

I also wonder very much about the deliberately bred part-bloods. Will they be included or ignored?  Also, Given the time involved, and fae awareness of assorted scientific advances, why aren't they trying breeding back some of those part bloods, to see if a preponderance of fae blood would improve power, while giving the additional fertility?  Beefalo, anyone?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Nifty on March 06, 2012, 02:18:32 pm
  Also, Given the time involved, and fae awareness of assorted scientific advances, why aren't they trying breeding back some of those part bloods, to see if a preponderance of fae blood would improve power, while giving the additional fertility?  Beefalo, anyone?

Do you mean breeding a half-breed with a full fae?  That would yield in a 3/4 fae, right?  Breed that person with another full-fae and you'd wind up with an even higher concentration of fae genes?  It's a thought.  Of course, then maybe they'd run into the same fertility issues they already have amongst their "natural" full-fae.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 06, 2012, 02:23:21 pm
 It will certainly be an interesting time in Mercy's neck of the woods.  Charles and Anna seem to more "run into the fae in the line of business" while Mercy and her friends definitely have fae friends.
Question: Do we need to wait until the spoiler bars are lifted before we can carry this knowledge to the Frost Burned thread to speculate, or do we just need to spoiler bar it in that thread? Since I feel like we're crossing over into "off-topic" by discussing impacts on characters more closely associated with Mercy and the Tri-Cities. 

I also didn't get the impression that it was "open war," though it may result in that.  And certainly the link Underhill has been reestablished on the reservations.  So it may have been that the fae intended to do something similar at the earliest opportunity... though I do think that Beauclair didn't intend to be the one to "throw off the veil" if you will.  Not until they declared Heuter innocent.
Still, Zee has been saying for years that the reservations are just Step 1 in the Gray Lords' master plan...
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on March 06, 2012, 02:45:58 pm
I am 55% into thr book. :) still not touching the black bars.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Nifty on March 06, 2012, 02:54:56 pm
I am 55% into thr book. :) still not touching the black bars.

You have amazing restraint, Varg. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on March 06, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
LOL or I am too busy reading the book to look at the discussion....
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Moonlight on March 06, 2012, 03:01:48 pm
Just finished!  Looks like life just got much more complicated for the weres.  bOuNcY And frankly, those government types were scarier than the monsters!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 06, 2012, 03:05:56 pm
I think the affects of this book qualify as discussion. Especially as we're focusing on possibily results that don't involve Mercy as much as those that do.

But if you want to talk more about that book... I loved the idea the Boston pack had. The passing out coupons for a free meal everytime they caused a bit of a scene. Pretty smart. Who doesn't like free food?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Nifty on March 06, 2012, 03:10:50 pm
Just finished!  Looks like life just got much more complicated for the weres.  And frankly, those government types were scarier than the monsters!

There were several times during the book when my reaction was all, "Eek!  Anna, shh!  Don't tell them that!"  I thought that she was disclosing a lot of their secrets, and I'm not sure that's smart.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 03:14:49 pm
She wasn't the only one.  There was a lot of disclosure, one way and another... The Freedom of Information Act mention has possibilities for the future...
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 06, 2012, 03:23:28 pm
I feel like if she'd given out any information that really shouldn't have been passed along, Charles or Brother Wolf would have let her know by body language if nothing else.  Doesn't mean she'd have stopped, but she'd have known he would prefer she'd not tell people that.  I'm guessing Bran gave her a pretty thorough rundown on what's allowable, and she has pretty good instincts anyway.
But I still had to cringe sometimes with some of the info she gave up. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on March 06, 2012, 05:08:44 pm
Aabsolutely loved the book! I was so worried about Charles and the ghosts that were haunting him.  Loved when the Boston alpha said he wanted to be like Charles when he grew up.  LOL
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 06, 2012, 05:18:20 pm
I loved that line, too! 

I hope he lives to be an old wolf, I like him.  He's kind of a smart-@$$ but he still takes care of his people.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 05:24:16 pm
Very clear sighted and even tempered, after our initial meeting, too.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Shyee on March 06, 2012, 06:25:34 pm
First of all, great book! I loved it to the point that if I was standing up I would have slumped down and cried with the ending that it was finished. I wanted more!! More I tell you! But it's left alot of question...

1. What is going to happen with Zee and Mercy's friendship? Will he be allowed to still have it with her, will she beable to visit with him, will he have to change his glamour if he goes to visit her?  Same with Tad, will he beable to continue with school or be forced to drop out. What about Ari and Samuel? And Phin and his bookshop. Where will they all stand from it all?  (I want the next Mercy book out now so we know the answers! XD)

2. Who did the Gray Lords make the deal with in the first place? Was it with Bran since they came to him asking for a meeting? Or was it with some secret human organization like the Templar Knights, that know about the Other races and keep those secrets, secret?

3. Are we going to see more of Leslie and Goldstein? Cause both seemed on the fae and wolves side with the ways they acted around them, I don't know. But they were both interesting characters, same with Nick, Leslie's boss. I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more about those characters.

4. With the fight against Benedict, was Alastair keeping the promise not to use his full strength from the bargain the fae made with whomever or was it because that was his full strength? I can't picture a Prince of the Gray Lords not being able to not kick any other fae's butt big time.

5. Are we going to see Issac again or was this just a one time meeting with him? Would love to see him and Bran's first meeting, I think it would be a hoot if Bran did the 'I'm a no-body so ignore me' thing he does when first meeting with Issac.

6. Did Lizzie and her mother know Alastair was a Prince of the Gray Lords? Or was it a surpise to hear just who he was when he made the declearation? So I guess that would make Lizzie a Princess wouldn't it?

7. The fifty-nine other riders, were they the Gray Lords? Or just other powerful fae that are just as powerful or other Princes and Princess of them?

So many more questions but those are the ones that play more on my mind than any others. All I know is last night when I finished the book, I didn't know if I wanted to hug Ms Briggs for such a great story or to throttle her for leaving it as it was. I wanna know more, here and now. Well, what can I say, I'm impatient.. lol. But great story, I loved it!!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 06:39:11 pm
I can make fairly good educated guesses about some of your questions - not the first, of course, they're ones I was thinking to bring up.  LOL

However...
Probably not Bran, Charles imputed it could have been some random child as easily as someone a human would have recognized as a power with whom to bargain like that.

Leslie and Goldstein; depends on whether they're still there when "Frost Bitten" opens; remember, we've been told it takes Mercy to Boston too!  bOuNcY 

And this leads to "are we going to see Isaac again?"  Probably for the same reason!  Also, Isaac has probably already met Bran, remember they have once or twice a year All Alphas & their seconds meetings in Aspen Creek. 

Alistair; they may not have known how powerful he was, but at the end his ex-wife did say something about how he missed the days when "he could kill anyone who bothered him."
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 06, 2012, 06:44:52 pm
I stopped breathing when I got to the end. I wasn't all that surprised when Heuter ended up being one of the killers, although for a while I thought Hally or Caitlin might be part of it. I definitely wasn't expecting the whole fae declaring themselves a separate nation altogether. I was expecting to see something at the end about that bill declaring the wolves an endangered species passing. Isaac was awesome, and so was Leslie. It would be cool to see either or both of them again.Time to read the book a second time, this time slowly. 
And for Nifty's question about the significance of rue: I think it used to be used to symbolize regret. Regret for being unable to protect his daughter, maybe?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 06, 2012, 06:58:46 pm
As far as Lizzie being a Princess-fae ranking seems to be based on power, not heredity, and Lizzie has none. Other fae might think twice about bothering her for fear of hurting her father, but I don't think Lizzie would have any standing at all among the fae, anymore than Jesse has rank in the pack just because she is Adam's daughter.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 07:07:43 pm
Kkat, there was that whole conversation about half blood children and how the other fae tend to think in terms of "no power, no loss to us" and turn their backs on their half bloods almost always.  Lizzie, and Todd, and Phin (and his ancestors, to Ari) are very much the exception.  They were/are loved by their fae parent/progenitor, but no, they would have no power.  Go right back to the part fae librarian who was killed and robbed in Iron Kissed to see that. As entirely without power as Lizzie seems to be (and wouldn't it be a kicker if she is a late bloomer who develops some mad talent in "Frost Bitten"!) she would be doomed to a horrible fate if she joined the fae Underhill.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 06, 2012, 07:18:46 pm
Kkat, there was that whole conversation about half blood children and how the other fae tend to think in terms of "no power, no loss to us" and turn their backs on their half bloods almost always.  Lizzie, and Todd, and Phin (and his ancestors, to Ari) are very much the exception.  They were/are loved by their fae parent/progenitor, but no, they would have no power.  Go right back to the part fae librarian who was killed and robbed in Iron Kissed to see that. As entirely without power as Lizzie seems to be (and wouldn't it be a kicker if she is a late bloomer who develops some mad talent in "Frost Bitten"!) she would be doomed to a horrible fate if she joined the fae Underhill.

I was replying to someone else's question/ comment a few posts back; I didn't think she would.  :)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 06, 2012, 08:06:53 pm
...That comment Alastair made, about how he asked his daughter once why she was only pretending to fly... It's a long shot, obviously, but I kind of wondered if he thought maybe she ought to be able to fly if she really put her mind to it.  Maybe she'll find a way.  I hope so.  It would be immeasurably terrible to not be able to dance anymore, even without the other crap they did to her.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gingkogirl on March 06, 2012, 08:21:23 pm
Oh, wow. Wow. Just finished and I must say, Fair Game was amazing and so much different than I was expecting. A hughly enjoyable read, although some bits made me a bit squeamish, from start to finish. Been reading on and off through the day and my family will barely speak to me because I have been ignoring them. I have tons of questions and speculations, many of which have been adressed already in this thread, so I won't repeat at the moment. But I got to wondering about a few random and unimportant things: If Alistair was a Grey Lord, why didn't he just get the cup that can take your will or heal (used on Mercy in Iron Kissed) and fix Lizzie. If Alistair was Lugh, the Grey Lord, does that mean he made Mercy's walking stick? Finally, if he is that Lugh, will he and Mercy and the Walking Stick ever meet up again?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 06, 2012, 08:29:40 pm
To far away, in someone else's possesion. He simply didn't think about it? I doubt every fae lord has a complete list of every magical item and what they do memorized.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 08:35:25 pm
Good questions.  I have guesses about several of them.
1. The cup is being subjected to the same kind of treatment as the Ark was in "Raiders of the Lost Ark."  Stuffed away in a warehouse somewhere as too dangerous to experiment on.

2. Is everyone named Luke the same Luke?  So Gwyn ap Lugh is more apt to be the SON of someone named Lugh.  Not by any means certain to be the same Lugh

3. With or without his being "walking stick" Lugh, they might meet, given he's a Prince and a Grey Lord, and Mercy is (in the words used for Theo Waitley in "Saltation") a nexus of violence.

Good point, Zee.  Also, Remember, fae & prices to be paid for 'favors'.  He may not be willing to risk what it might cost Lizzie.  Or him.  Or even his ex-wife, Lizzie's mother.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 06, 2012, 09:08:52 pm
Ginko--I think that's a rather common Welsh name, plus, I got the feeling that the walking stick Lugh was dead and not Grey Lord kind of powerful.  OK, just read that again.  He calls himself "ap Lugh" which, if i understand my ancient naming traditions, means he is the son of Lugh.  So, maybe the son of the walking stick Lugh?

And, omg, did not see that ending.  "Interesting times" indeed.

I think this may actually be Patty's best book ever.  All the others were completely spectacular but in this one, every note was spot on.

First off, just to get it out of the way, I didn't see Beauclaire's declaration as being one of war.  I thought more of the US-Iran relationship or, perhaps, US-USSR during the Cold War; enmity but not (yet) open hostility.

I really hope we get to learn who made the promises to the Fae.  Two hundred years, just at or after the founding of America.  Am I wrong thinking Founding Father?  Surely there were some Scots or Welsh among them, though why would they issue such an invitation?  True spirit of universal rights and freedoms?  Hoping to strengthen a new nation?  I got the feeling that the oath held them to honor the authority of the government, so it seems that bringing them over would have served some purpose that the swearee would feel to benefit the country.

I do hope we get to see more of Leslie and Goldstein.  I love how Patty used the various Feds to demonstrate how disparate the attitudes of the different branches of law enforcement are.  I do wish we had seen more of Leslie's thoughts as her opinion of weres changed over the course of the investigation.  I was really expecting to see some sort of partnership between Charles and Anna and the FBI come out of all of this.

I also liked that all of the superfluous agents in the hotel scene gave us lots of possible suspects.  And I liked that Heuter wasn't too obvious.  I had pretty much dismissed the idea that it was him when he struck. (I watch waaaay to many procedurals)

Also, did anyone get the feeling that the Cantrip Fae list was rather like MacCarthy era blacklists?  Guilty until proven innocent?  Nasty neighbors or co-workers making accusations without any need for evidence?  And what are they going to do with that list?  Nothing good you know.

Did anyone else want to yell at Charles, 'Would you call Mercy already and ask her about ghosts?"  Not that it's his nature to ask for help but it irritated me.  Plus we know from the Mercy books that Charles might know more about Mercy than she herself does.

Oh, I have rambled on haven't I?  But I always end Patty's books going, "That was AWESOME!!  I need MORE!"  and talking them to death is the next best thing.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 06, 2012, 09:13:33 pm
Did anyone else want to yell at Charles, 'Would you call Mercy already and ask her about ghosts?"  Not that it's his nature to ask for help but it irritated me.  Plus we know from the Mercy books that Charles might know more about Mercy than she herself does.

Not really. After all, beyond seeing ghosts, Mercy doesn't actually seem to know that much about them. Yes, she's divided them into different types, but I'm pretty certain in BC she admitted she knew nothing about getting rid of them.I don't feel like she would have been any help to Charles.

*woops, your copy/paste left a spoiler uncovered, so I just removed a / to make it work again, Zealith.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 06, 2012, 09:36:28 pm
Yes, I don't think Mercy would have been much help.
Charles knew how to get rid of the ghosts.  It was his guilt that tied them to him.  He had to deal with that before he could free himself from them.  He knew that from his grandfather.  Perhaps Mercy could have banished them, with the power over ghosts she apparently has, but I don't get the impression that she's been fine-tuning that ability, plus:
1) I don't know if Charles's ghosts are the same sort of ghosts that Mercy would be familiar with.
2) Even if Mercy banished the current batch of ghosts, the underlying problem - the guilt - would still be there, leaving him open for future ghost invasion.  And while I don't think Adam has anything against Charles, I don't see it going over well long-term if Mercy had to constantly be on call to get rid of ghosts hanging around him.  Especially given that having the ghosts around seems to make Charles... unstable, shall we say?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2012, 09:45:25 pm
I'd agree that Mercy wouldn't be too much help, but more for the difference in perspective produced by the fact that Charles' "Indian" grounding is both stronger and of a different culture than Mercy's scattered bits.  Mercy's view of ghosts has nothing to do with guilty latching onto an individual, but more like... how a certain house will creak at a certain pitch when the wind shakes it, or how your ipod/MP3 will seem to play certain songs when you stop at a certain traffic light, or something.  They're attached to places usually, and they're 'recordings'.  The few mobile ghosts she's run across were either very fresh (which Charles has now too, it's true) or that ghost of a vampire; not exactly the same thing as the usual human/werewolf ghost.
Further, she's got a more pragmatic approach to ghosts than he does.  Possibly from being raised "white" beyond the little Charles taught her.  I don't get the impression that his tutoring of her covered much more than the infamous Lay-Z Boy spirit quest.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 07, 2012, 09:03:33 am
<snip>
Question: Do we need to wait until the spoiler bars are lifted before we can carry this knowledge to the Frost Burned thread to speculate, or do we just need to spoiler bar it in that thread? Since I feel like we're crossing over into "off-topic" by discussing impacts on characters more closely associated with Mercy and the Tri-Cities.  <snip>

It'll be in both sections, as long as it has spoiler bars.
That's the ruling.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Has on March 07, 2012, 09:18:54 am
Feel free to post at the Frost Burned discussion about the events which will affect Mercy and co - but the spoiler bars of doom must be used but till 3 months after the release date. This is avoid unintentionally spoilage by members who havent had the chance to read the book yet.

Edited: Patti beat me to it! LOL
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 07, 2012, 11:28:21 am
You know I'm ebil that way.  's how I keep my post count up.  >D

Only look at this link AFTER you've reached the 9th chapter:  http://www.diggercomic.com/?p=551
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Cerulean on March 07, 2012, 11:28:53 am
I *loved* this book! Stayed up until 3:30 am reading it. I don't have anything insightful to say right now, but what an ending!

I agree that the fae aren't at war with the US, but that they're treating them with the potential to be enemies. There's certainly no trust there. I was wondering to what extent Alistair acted alone or had conferred with the other Gray Lords about this "secession" and what did he mean by saying he's a Grey Lord "Prince"? Does that just mean he's a Grey Lord? Or more? A leader of leaders? If so, how could he be forced to marry and breed a half-fae child?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 07, 2012, 12:57:56 pm
He says that he told them he was too old and powerful for them to give him a child.  That implies to me that there are a whole bunch of Gray Lords who for whatever reason wanted him to have a child (perhaps in hope that his power would be passed to her?), and they put pressure on him to do so.  The Gray Lords don't sound like a really cohesive group so much as "We're the most powerful fae left, so if we all get together and agree on something, the rest of you are so. totally. screwed."  But individually, their power isn't so great that they can face down the rest of the Gray Lords. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: CarolKat on March 07, 2012, 01:37:03 pm
I just thought of something What is this going to do to Sam and Ariana?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 07, 2012, 02:20:59 pm
Good point.  :-\

I would guess, that Sam not being human might still be allowed to visit the reservations. Or, I always got the impression that Ariana, while not a grey lord, was pretty powerful. Since she's not public she might be allowed to be an exception?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on March 07, 2012, 02:32:16 pm
Hmm, did not manage to stay away from the black bars of doom LOL

As long as Ariana goes disguised as a human, she could probably visit with Sam quite easily. I don't think retreating and calling themselves their own nation meant they would not visit at all, and I think going in disguise would be entirely possible.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: mtomni on March 07, 2012, 02:39:18 pm
I have only one question.  Will there be another Anna & Charles book?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 07, 2012, 02:43:30 pm
She has 2 more Mercy books (I believe) and one undecided book plan. It might be Anna and Charles, or it might focus on something else.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 07, 2012, 03:29:53 pm
I *loved* this book! Stayed up until 3:30 am reading it. I don't have anything insightful to say right now, but what an ending!

I agree that the fae aren't at war with the US, but that they're treating them with the potential to be enemies. There's certainly no trust there. I was wondering to what extent Alistair acted alone or had conferred with the other Gray Lords about this "secession" and what did he mean by saying he's a Grey Lord "Prince"? Does that just mean he's a Grey Lord? Or more? A leader of leaders? If so, how could he be forced to marry and breed a half-fae child?

Remember in Hunting Ground, Dana Shea was a Gray Lord, but she was still frightened of some other Gray Lords. Very powerful doesn't necessarily mean invincible. Maybe he owed one of them a debt, or maybe there were just too many who agreed with the plan.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 07, 2012, 04:44:23 pm
I am very much relieved to point out that FINALLY the "can't the she-werewolf stay wolf and bear her child/children in that shape" question is definitively answered:   NO  NO NO NO SHE CAN NOT. 
Maybe we can get some of the speculation on it to stop being posted now.

I'm fairly sick of that particular question.  :P
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on March 07, 2012, 05:02:05 pm
I just thought of something What is this going to do to Sam and Ariana?

I wonder that as well. I was thinking they might stay together with her pretending to be human (or were).  Afer all the Fae seem to recognize that Bran's family has helped them so I would think they would raise to much of a fuss about that.

Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 07, 2012, 06:16:19 pm
I am very much relieved to point out that FINALLY the "can't the she-werewolf stay wolf and bear her child/children in that shape" question is definitively answered:   NO  NO NO NO SHE CAN NOT. 
Maybe we can get some of the speculation on it to stop being posted now.

I'm fairly sick of that particular question.  :P

Some of it, probably, but some will likely show up. Part of me is tired of the question, the other half enjoys playing with the idea. I'm pretty sure my subconscious has a split personality.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 07, 2012, 06:51:22 pm
I am very much relieved to point out that FINALLY the "can't the she-werewolf stay wolf and bear her child/children in that shape" question is definitively answered:   NO  NO NO NO SHE CAN NOT. 
Maybe we can get some of the speculation on it to stop being posted now.


Since Anna wasn't convinced that would be true in her case, I wouldn't be surprised if it keeps coming up. At least in Anna's case.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 07, 2012, 08:09:08 pm
I am very much relieved to point out that FINALLY the "can't the she-werewolf stay wolf and bear her child/children in that shape" question is definitively answered:   NO  NO NO NO SHE CAN NOT. 
Maybe we can get some of the speculation on it to stop being posted now.
I was glad to see that, too.  Though I agree with Zealith, Anna still considers the matter to not be entirely closed.  So the matter will still come up in debate with regards to her.
Also, isn't the answer technically "yes, she can... but it is very, very, very, very bad.  Mom will completely lose it, and if she makes it to having the baby... baby isn't going to survive the experience."?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Avarel on March 07, 2012, 08:59:48 pm
Just finished reading it. It was good all along. Loved it.
Then bang.
5 pages from the end the world gets turned upside down.
My head is still spinning.

I think that the Fae have declared their willingness to declare war rather than declaring war.  ( if that makes sense)

I find it really interesting that the Fae both apologized and thanked Bran. I know that thanking someone implies a debt. What does apologizing mean?

I think that the Fae feel that they owe Bran (and he wolves). How much do they figure that they owe him?
It also shows that the Fae respect him since they are opening negotiations. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 07, 2012, 11:07:53 pm
I am very much relieved to point out that FINALLY the "can't the she-werewolf stay wolf and bear her child/children in that shape" question is definitively answered:   NO  NO NO NO SHE CAN NOT. 
Maybe we can get some of the speculation on it to stop being posted now.
I was glad to see that, too.  Though I agree with Zealith, Anna still considers the matter to not be entirely closed.  So the matter will still come up in debate with regards to her.
Also, isn't the answer technically "yes, she can... but it is very, very, very, very bad.  Mom will completely lose it, and if she makes it to having the baby... baby isn't going to survive the experience."?

Patty said tonight that Anna may decide she wants children, and she has a way of getting what she wants, but having been on the receiving end of the little homily we were told of her, I am quite sure that neither she nor Charles are going to risk her this way.  Or the putative baby.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on March 08, 2012, 04:21:17 am
Just finished reading it. It was good all along. Loved it.
Then bang.
5 pages from the end the world gets turned upside down.
My head is still spinning.

I think that the Fae have declared their willingness to declare war rather than declaring war.  ( if that makes sense)

I find it really interesting that the Fae both apologized and thanked Bran. I know that thanking someone implies a debt. What does apologizing mean?

I think that the Fae feel that they owe Bran (and he wolves). How much do they figure that they owe him?
It also shows that the Fae respect him since they are opening negotiations. 

I like the way you worded that Avarel it is their willingness to declare war that is announced:) which is very different from actually declaring war.Also in regards to apoligizing to Bran, some of it is quite obvious imo, he is in the middle of a very tricky situation for the werewolves what with the endangered species act and othe legal shenanigans happening. The fae taking their reservations and "leaving2 to declare themselves a separate nation, will probably not help the werewolves and might actually make it more difficult to navigate the situation
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: marci8300 on March 08, 2012, 02:40:26 pm
Finished the book yesterday.  Man, I loved it.  It was great.  I can't remember how to do the spoiler bars, so I will leave it at that!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on March 08, 2012, 03:30:11 pm
I am very confused about Leah.  We know that in Cry Wolf (I think it was), it is mentioned that Bran married Leah because he knew, in part, that she was so stupid that he would never love her.  But in Fair Game, he has given her part of the pack finances to maintain.  You wouldn't give the financial wellbeing of your pack to someone you considered too stupid to car about, would you?  So do you think that Bran is seeing a smarter side of Leah or is she just stupid emotionally and interpersonally but sharp in an accounting/investing perspective?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Has on March 08, 2012, 03:44:26 pm
I totally agree and that part really stood out to me. I definitely think this is going to lead to huge trouble. I think Bran is having so much on his plate with upcoming legislation and now the repercussion of the fae complicating things and the worry with Charles and Sam's instability over the last year and plus Mercy's problems - I think he just lost track and focus  but probably thought he could handle it. But I think its a huge mistake - also he appeared really on edge in the opening chapters of Fair Game and its going to come back and bite him. I don't think Leah can be trusted and the fact she tried to flirt and probably try to manipulate Asil is not a good thing.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 08, 2012, 03:49:01 pm
People can be very smart in some ways, and almost blindly stupid in others. I've known people who have one or more college degrees, but are incredibly stupid when it comes to dealing with people, or even just everyday common sense stuff.
And now that Charles seems to be sorting his problems out, and Bran's admitted to himself that Charles had a problem, he may start doing  the finance stuff again. Bran took the finance stuff away from him because he knew Charles was in trouble, even if he wasn't paying attention. That said, Bran probably is very distracted.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 08, 2012, 05:04:45 pm
  <snip> Quick reminder, the button is found above the smileys toward the right end, or can be manually entered by typing - with square brackets [] the following before the revelation, and after it.

So... New Fae nations within the US borders!  Are the fae elsewhere doing the same?  How about Europe and Canada?  What about Zee, or Ari & Samuel?
There you go, Catchme, how to use spoiler bars.

Regarding Leah's intelligence or lack, 2 things.  Rainman/savants in general, and the oft-quoted (especially by me) Chinese saying:  So educated he could name a horse in seven languages, so ignorant he bought a cow to ride.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: marci8300 on March 08, 2012, 05:22:11 pm
Thanks for the reminder Patti.  I do agree that giving control of the pack finances is a bad idea on Bran's part.  I remember Patty making a comment on how Bran does care about Leah and he doesn't realize how much.  Wonder if that will come into play and we realize how much Leah actually means to Bran.  I think all it will take is for Bran and Leah to realize it to make Leah a better person.  Hopefully, we don't lose Bran in the process.
I also hope and pray that with the fae ready to go to war with the U.S. and declaring themselves a seperate nation, that it doesn't drag the werewolves into the problems.  But I can see that happening if the bill passes and pisses Bran off enough.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: YuleRule on March 08, 2012, 05:32:01 pm
I've just finished reading the book. I really, really liked it.

Since I read the book in two sittings, and stopped somewhere in the middle yesterday, I suspected that Heuter was the/one of the killer(s), by his attitude whenever he met with Anna, yet on the other hand I thougt that was really obvious.

I think the fae are showing that they don't want to interact with humans, but they're not shutting off contact with the rest of the outside world, and will continue interacting with the supernatural community, So I don't think the move threatens the relationship between Sam and Ariana.

To me, when reading the end, it seemed that Beauclaire's decision was basically unilateral. Once Heuter was declared innocent, it seems that Beauclaire left simply to make a grand entrance. And related to that, I had a thought: the fae wear their glamours to blend in with humans, and to seem not dangerous. If they wanted to freak people out, I am sure that plenty would have pretty intimidating forms.

Remind me please, who are the most dominant wolves? Bran, then Samuel, I guess (as his suicidal problems have been solved for now) then there's Charles, then somebody then Adam? And Asil has to be pretty high up on that list, as well. 
   
So what did the werewolves/fae let slip or let the humans learn? Both the existence of the Gray Lords  as well as that of the Marrok (a higher power than the Alphas) was mentioned. The fact that werewolves can be very old. Was the fact that the fae long-lived/immortal already known? A big vunerability: that the transformation is painful, and slow.It seems that both Leslie and Goldstein are pretty discreet, but still...how much of that information will filter out?
Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on March 08, 2012, 05:36:20 pm
I thought the dominance order was Bran, Charles, Samuel and then Adam..but I could be wrong between Samuel and Charles, but Adam wad fourth.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 08, 2012, 05:37:34 pm
The dominance list Mercy gave us was Bran, Samuel, Charles, then Adam. Might not be entirely accurate though.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 08, 2012, 05:43:41 pm
Most dominant four are Bran, Charles, Samuel, Adam.  There was a fifth listed back in MC, but he was listed as one of the five Mercy had memorized when she was little, and no mention of whether he's still living. 
I could have Charles and Samuel backwards (pretty sure Charles outranks Samuel but that could just be because Charles is Bran's second, while Samuel is not part of a pack), and I'd guess that Asil is either right above or right below Adam.  He was surprised that Charles is more dominant, and I think he'd have come to the US too recently for Mercy to be familiar with him and his rank among the wolves. 

I believe that the longevity of the fae is fairly well known to humans, I seem to remember Mercy saying something about a lot of fae liking to claim that they live a lot longer than they really do; but she definitely passed on to the strictly-human authorities that when Zee is mad, he curses in old German, not English or modern German. 
I would guess that people had an idea that werewolves could live a long time, due to the accelerated healing and the fact that they never seem to age, but the confirmation of a werewolf being very, very old surprised the humans in the room.  It's one thing to have a theoretical understanding that a werewolf could live for centuries, and to know that some types of fae are virtually immortal... and quite another thing to learn that werewolves are capable, under the right circumstances, of living for nearly as long.
They now know for sure that there is a Marrok pulling the strings of the wolves; but they don't know who Bran is.  And they seem to be somewhat suspicious that Charles is the Marrok.  Do you suppose Bran meant for that to happen?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Moonlight on March 08, 2012, 08:36:18 pm
As far as the order of dominance is concerned, I think Samuel and Charles flipped places in recent years as Samuel lost interest in being in a pack after Mercy left.

When Charles makes a comment about fae magic, Beauclaire refers to Charles as Marrok's son and Goldstein gets very interested.  Like he'd heard the name before and now he wanted to know what it meant. I think the government suspects much but may not be sure.  Charles could just be a member of a powerful pack.  My guess though is that he was closely followed when he returned to Montana!  :-'

Makes me wonder if some of the people who want to catch the monsters, whatever form they take, might want to work with Charles and Anna again.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: issah26 on March 08, 2012, 10:09:11 pm
I had a feeling early on that Anna would attrack attention and be kidnapped.I was so happy that Anna didn't get too scared not to be prepared to take care of herself!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 08, 2012, 10:15:18 pm
My guess though is that he was closely followed when he returned to Montana!  :-'
They probably tried, but remember... Charles decided he didn't want to deal with watching security pat Anna down again, so they flew home privately.  So... probably a little harder to follow them home than otherwise.
Besides, remember, Charles said in Hunting Ground that he gets followed by the government... but only when he wants them to. 

Also, my earlier comment was wrong... in the beginning it seems like they might think Charles is the Head Werewolf, but Alistair does refer to him as "The Marrok's son" so that probably made it rather obvious that it's Charles's DAD who is the Guy In Charge.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 08, 2012, 10:38:42 pm
I thought in one of the previous books Mercy or Adam talk about how Washington thinks that there may be a leader  off the weres but Bran was playing least in sight in case public reaction was really bad. So the slip may merely be confirmation of that.

Plus, it was unclear how much most of the agents really knew about weres.  Leslie had to do research before the meeting and was surprised several times when what she thought she knew did not match with reality.  And it seemed as if she was getting much of her info from web searches, not what the FBI has on file.  So even if Goldstein and Leslie were surprised, it doesn't necessarily mean that no one in the government knows, just that they don't share info.

As far as Leah and the finances go, it depends on what aspect of the finances she was put in charge of.  It sounded like Charles had handed much of the businesses and investments over to people he trusts, all of whom are human (Bran says that he does it every few years to hide that fact that he doesn't age; Charles may also have done that to try to hide the Marrock's money from the government).  So, if Leah is in charge of keeping the books for just the pack, she doesn't have to be super intelligent or insightful, just detail oriented and decent at math.  Though I agree, it will probably lead to trouble.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 08, 2012, 11:23:47 pm
Good point on the government agencies not talking; theoretically, Leslie should have been able to get anything the gooberment thinks it knows about werewolves by going to CANTRIPP.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 08, 2012, 11:36:50 pm
Though Cantrip seems to have as much misinformation as information.

One of the things I was wondering about the revelation of C & A's identities:  were they able to testify as the "Smiths" or did they have to reveal their real names.  I know the Feds learned Anna's real identity (maiden name) but did they learn the Cornick name, which is really the important one.  I ask, because I don't think it's legal to give testimony under an assumed name.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 09, 2012, 12:48:43 am
Yes, I'm not impressed with that agency either.  I'm also considering them in regard to the revelations about the plot of "Frost Burned."

Very good point on that!  Leading to the question of how much this ends up revealing about Bran and Aspen Creek, what with the same name, and ridiculous spy satellites, and facial recognition software, and the similarities in the face between Charles & Bran, subtle as they are.  Bear in mind, they likely had to identify themselves with some kind of home address too, in case subpeonas were issued, and so forth.

Oh!  And when Charles squashed his cell phone, Bran called Isaac.  Isaac then said, in front of Leslie &...was Goldstein there? *rummages for book.*  Yes, G. was there, & Isaac asks "Four zero six is the Montana area code, right?" So they've got that to work from too.

And again, those kinds of details/problems are why Bran brought the werewolves out when he did, rather than wait for discovery from outside.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on March 09, 2012, 04:36:57 am
I have to think though that even though the FBI agents heard about Montana's area code that doesn't mean that they (I think they recognized Charles and Anna as the good guys) 1) will share with CANTRIP or any other government agency and 2) they really couldn't assume that the person calling from Montana was anyone living around Charles, just that Charles knows someone from Montana (or has relatives in Montana).   Also, Charles has homes all over the country as does the pack so they could take some time going from place to place to avoid having the government know where their home base is.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 09, 2012, 05:17:44 am
The Book was cool.  I heartily recommend it.

I've got to think that what with the way the Fae just lost their cool and declared themselves a hostile sovereign nation, that whatever the Fed's did learn will make the cooler heads hesitate before risking upsetting the werewolf apple cart so soon after the fey one just exploded into applesauce.  While the hotter heads will try to use it to force a big blow up, and try to get all supernaturals listed as hostiles.  Have to see how things spin out.  Mercy playing the persecuted Indian card, if they try to run away and lambast all Sup's as hostiles might make for a good talking point in a nationally televised senate hearing.

It would make a lot more sovereign reservations make a stink.  Only this time it would be native americans instead of the fae.  Being forced to consider bringing out the federal army might slow things down on the 'lets smoke them all out and put the survivors in a zoo philosophy.



P.O.P.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 09, 2012, 09:07:48 am

Oh!  And when Charles squashed his cell phone, Bran called Isaac.  Isaac then said, in front of Leslie &...was Goldstein there? *rummages for book.*  Yes, G. was there, & Isaac asks "Four zero six is the Montana area code, right?" So they've got that to work from too.
...But the fact that they came from Montana - which is a big state, albeit pretty sparsely populated - could be fairly easy to figure out based on the fact that they flew commercially to Boston.  Also, catchmeifyoucan has good points: I don't live in the same state as MY dad.  So just because Charles's dad lives in Montana, doesn't mean Charles does.  And, the FBI people seem to really not consider Cantrip to be... up to par.  Whereas these two at least really did seem to see Charles as the good guy (though admittedly scary as heck!) and liked Anna.  So I don't see this information finding its way to Cantrip any time soon. 

Something else to consider: "Marrok" is a title.  As has been mentioned, the government has suspected that there's somebody in charge... confirming that he goes by "the Marrok" doesn't make that useful information.  As far as we know, there's no way currently for the government to connect "The Marrok" who is in charge of the werewolves to Bran Cornick of Aspen Creek, Montana.  And, Bran is very good at being underestimated.  If the government were to track him down, I don't think they'd take him seriously as "Guy In Charge" unless he really wanted to show them what he was made of.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 09, 2012, 09:33:02 am
Fun debate!  bOuNcY

Actually, "... Montana - which is a big state, albeit pretty sparsely populated - could be fairly easy to figure out based on the fact that they flew commercially to Boston." They didn't fly straight from Montana, they flew privately to SeaTac, and from here to Boston commercially, making it marginally less easy.  However, bureaucracy raises its ugly head on that.

"So just because Charles's dad lives in Montana, doesn't mean Charles does." doesn't necessarily apply either.  I would have to read back carefully for the detail, but I don't think they specified, either call with Bran & FBI involved had Charles saying "Dad" or "my father" or anything.  They don't know that the person he sent the pics to, nor the one he got the call from is his dad.  The first, in fact, they wouldn't know where he was phoning to.

They may despise Cantrip, and not share what they know with the other Cantrip agent or an official request for briefing/report copies happily, but that doesn't mean that they can avoid doing so under official orders.

The folks trying to follow Charles probably are more successful following less alert werewolves, and considering some of the ... less than optimal ... Alpha wolves we've seen/heard about - Leo, and the Minnesota Alpha of recent memory, ignoring those Bran wouldn't trust with a 13 year old girl - chances are excellent that one or more has given away info to some feds at some point about the yearly AlphaCon.  You can also go clear back to Moon Called and the new werewolves being sold for drug experimentation, and Blackwood's government contracts to contemplate how there might have been truth drugs tried on werewolves, as well as things to knock them out.

Although we're wandering into FB speculation here rather than FG discussion.  Want to take it there?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 09, 2012, 12:19:47 pm
Just finished the book - I loved it!!!  :D Amazing ending - I'd really enjoyed the story and was just thinking things were winding down with plenty of minor 'future problems' to be getting on with - and then the Grey Lord rides in and smashes the known world to pieces!

As for the implications to the wolves - it could go two ways - those who'd want to try very hard not to alienate the wolves as well, vs those who'd think the wolves were a lost cause / in with the fae anyway, so why not fight them in every possible way. Sadly I think the latter is more likely, so I suspect this endangered species bill might well pass.

I think the other Grey Lords knew that Alistair was going to kill Heuter and make his announcement, and realised it was inevitable. I suspect they mostly agreed with him - I think that if they hadn't he might well still have killed in public but would have had to do so just as himself, not as a leader of all the fae.

A thought on Alistair taking a human wife - he may not have been made to do it, but if most of the Grey Lords thought it should be done then he might have felt that he should do so as well, setting an example.

Anyway, I do think this is one of Patty's best books so far, if not the best. Yay!  :D
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 09, 2012, 02:38:24 pm
Where oh where did my post go?  Darn you, Intertube Hedgehogs. 
Patti, I think we're still discussing implications for Charles and Bran, rather than talking about what Adam and Mercy might get up to.  So I think it still belongs here. 

OK you have good points.  Especially with the airplane.  But my point with saying that "just because Charles's dad lives in Montana, doesn't mean Charles does" is that whoever is calling from Montana, that doesn't give them any new information.

Quote
AlphaCon
Now I have a picture of Bran and his Alphas and all of their seconds and thirds... running/attending a Con.   Oh, the possibilities.  We may have to start a silly thread of "If the annual Alpha Meeting were to be held as a Con..."
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Janilee on March 09, 2012, 02:40:30 pm
Quote
AlphaCon
Now I have a picture of Bran and his Alphas and all of their seconds and thirds... running/attending a Con.   Oh, the possibilities.  We may have to start a silly thread of "If the annual Alpha Meeting were to be held as a Con..."

What would the T-shirts say?

I survived AlphaCon I?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 09, 2012, 02:46:44 pm
Yes, I think we need a new thread so we don't derail this one.  I'll put it in Chat; Mods, feel free to move it if you think it doesn't go there. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: BillG on March 09, 2012, 03:48:16 pm
I've got it... and Anna's a fan of Stan Rogers!
I'm flipping out! :D bOuNcY bOuNcY bOuNcY
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Avarel on March 09, 2012, 04:25:40 pm
I just thought of something! 
 
I figured that the Fae dad (I'm on my phone and can't remember his name  :-[ ) made the decision to kill Heuter on his own  because it happened so quickly after the verdict but now that I think about it he probably went underhill where time is different. He could have met with people for months (theoretically) and debated about his response.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 09, 2012, 04:30:10 pm
I just thought of something! 

I figured that the Fae dad (I'm on my phone and can't remember his name  :-[ ) made the decision to kill Heuter on his own  because it happened so quickly after the verdict but now that I think about it he probably went underhill where time is different. He could have met with people for months (theoretically) and debated about his response.

Pretty much where I was coming from Avarel.


have a good one!


P.O.P.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: marci8300 on March 09, 2012, 06:30:39 pm
I actually think that this might have been part of the Grey Lords plans.  Public opinion hasn't changed much regarding the fey.  I think that the fey are old enough and have a lot of experience to realize that they wouldn't be accepted by the human population.  We've heard about the plans that the Grey Lords have.  The first one was trying to get Underhill reestablished.  They have accomplished that.  The next step could be what happened at the end of the book.....declairing themselves their own nation.  I believe that they have safeguards up and have been planning to do this for some time and this just gives them a very good excuse to do so.  The fae will protect Underhill since they learned their lesson about losing power.  Now that they have moved all the fae to the reservations, they will more than likely gain more power since it will be centralized in the reservations...especially if they have called all the fae that were still in hiding. These don't do any good here...

Just a thought.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Mike Briggs on March 09, 2012, 07:17:33 pm
Avarel:
Hmmm.  That's a very astute observation.  ;)  Just imagine the benefits of being able to effectively call a "Time Out" in war, and have ten or twenty times more hours to plan than the other guys.   In Frost Burned a flight of bombers secretly aiming for a Fae reservation did a disappearing act and showed up over the middle of Australia. Those nasty, clever, scheming little Fae!  O)

P.S.  with all the spoiler tags, this area reads like a Government report on a UFO sighting.  Or should I have put that in spoiler tags, as well.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: CarolKat on March 09, 2012, 07:29:20 pm
Mr Mike, you are a sneaky hint thrower!  :D Thank you! And you are right about the spoiler bars, have you ever see a letter from a soldier on active duty where you are not supposed to know where they are? My Aunt got a couple that ended up with Hi Mom, I Love You, Drew. The rest was blacked out!  9)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gryphon340 on March 09, 2012, 07:34:37 pm
Wonder if the Judge and Prosecuter will turn up dead because they're Oathbreakers!

Just carpet bomb the areas!

Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 09, 2012, 07:39:46 pm
Mr. Mike, you rock!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 09, 2012, 08:42:08 pm
Thank you Mike!  LOL
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 09, 2012, 08:46:56 pm
Avarel:
Hmmm.  That's a very astute observation.  ;)  Just imagine the benefits of being able to effectively call a "Time Out" in war, and have ten or twenty times more hours to plan than the other guys.  In Frost Burned a flight of bombers secretly aiming for a Fae reservation did a disappearing act and showed up over the middle of Australia.  Those nasty, clever, scheming little Fae!  O)

P.S.  with all the spoiler tags, this area reads like a Government report on a UFO sighting.  Or should I have put that in spoiler tags, as well.

Not to mention training the troops, growing food, building weapons, and ammo, and maneuver, and arrange alliances!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: ppbwashu on March 09, 2012, 09:12:24 pm
Wow, oh wow.  Patty is awesome, and Fair Game is the best yet! :-LOVE
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 10, 2012, 04:40:47 am
I hadn't thought about the Time Out aspect. I re-read the end and it made me wonder again - he describes himself as "Prince of the Grey Lords" and says "All will follow me" (or something similar, I may not have remembered the exact words). So I do wonder if he is the highest rank of all? Or if others, how many Princes - if he just had to convince 1 or 2 Princes instead of all the Grey Lords, that would be easier.

The Time Out also explains how he managed to get to the court room with all his followers and the horses in such a short time - even if he'd stormed off right away, even as fae, it'd surely have taken time to get everyone moving in the right direction. Unless he thought he knew what the verdict would be anyway and was just waiting for the news before acting.

I have to say I found what he did very satisfying and was cheering him on all the way. It's great to see people who thought they were getting away with injustice have the tables utterly turned on them. How many humans are now whining, "But we didn't know...."
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: YuleRule on March 10, 2012, 06:10:00 am
I was curious about one thing, though. When they break into the bunker and find Lizzie, it is mentioned that steel is not as resistant to fae magic as iron, and when Alistar opens the door, it is specifically mentioned that the doorknob is aluminum, leading me to believe that he is probably one of the fae sensitive to iron. Yet, at the end, he uses his sword to behead Heuter. So the sword couldn't have been made of iron.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 10, 2012, 09:13:05 am
Swords have been made of many things, not just steel and iron. 
Titanium, for instance, might be a good choice.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Janilee on March 10, 2012, 09:17:56 am
Archaeologically there are bronze (pardon me) copper alloy swords.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on March 10, 2012, 09:32:13 am
Bespelled wood would also be a possibility one might think. Or perhaps a steel sword with a some kind of insulating in the handle?
Or even a modern day aluminium one?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 10, 2012, 10:09:12 am
Maybe Janilee can't say bronze, but I can; Many thousands of people have been killed with bronze swords through history.  It's still harder than human flesh and bone.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: CarolKat on March 10, 2012, 10:27:33 am
Wasn't his dagger silver? So maybe the sword is too?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on March 10, 2012, 10:35:48 am
Wasn't his dagger silver? So maybe the sword is too?
It was? I don't remember that, but I sort of devoured the book very quick so some details may have escaped me.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 10, 2012, 02:50:55 pm
I assumed that the Fae succession was Beauclaire's backup plan in case the verdict came back not guilty. Remember, his law firm, which Charles suspected to be all-Fae, looked as if it was all packing up.  It seemed to me that the Fae had already reached an agreement on what would happen if justice was not served. 

As far as the prince thing, what little I know of Faery mythology, the "courts" (both Seely and Unseely) seem to have a great deal in common with, say the Elizabethan court.  Monarchy may be absolute, but there is a huge amount of jockeying for power behind the scenes.  So, ministers or high ranking aristocrats can wield a huge amount of influence, even over the "royal" family.  However, insults or injuries to that family, especially from outsiders, would have grave ramifications which would overshadow most political maneuvering.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 10, 2012, 06:32:46 pm
Jenniwee, you may be right, although my opinion is that even if the case had come out with real justice, not only was Beauclaire leaving the firm, but most of the other fae members of that law firm moving on, probably assuming new identities, with the 'not aging' issue, like werewolves, with the attention on him from the case, and the anti-fae prejudices already in place, there's a good chance the firm was - in the three months from when Beauclaire was outed, if he hadn't been before - losing business because they had him on staff, a senior partner.  There was probably a lot of suspicion that there were other fae in the company.  Since that was indeed the case, it made sense for them to disband the firm and reform or spread elsewhere under other identities for the next twenty to forty years.  They might go through law schools again, or they might forge papers or they might go into other fields.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: marci8300 on March 10, 2012, 07:13:01 pm
This kind of makes me wonder if there if all the fey have to go to the reservations.  Couldn't they all take new identities and not reregister with the government?  They could just take new identities and infiltrate the government so that it doesn't necessarily go to a full out war between humans and the fey.  Especially since Uncle Mike said in Blood Bound that the humans could wipe the fae out if needed.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 10, 2012, 07:25:03 pm
Especially since Uncle Mike said in Blood Bound that the humans could wipe the fae out if needed.
but...this was before we found out that they'd re-established links to Underhill... and I got the impression that was a fairly recent development.  Which may be a game-changer, because they can access greater power there...
But I do think that it's very possible that they're not *all* going back to the reservations.  I can't see the Gray Lords pulling everyone out of human-land.  And even those who do, I agree... change glamour, suddenly "human again!"
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 10, 2012, 07:54:58 pm
Still just my opinion, but yes and no.
There are already fae in government, we know that from previous books, and I don't think the fae are going to give up that advantage.  Which I already said.

There are ways of figuring out if someone is fae, though.  Start by simply handing around something of iron at every meeting.  It's not 100%, because there are a few like Zee who aren't burned by it, but it would be a start.

Make an alliance - or just pay an obscene amount of money - to get werewolves to work for you as fae detectors; they can smell if someone is fae or not.   :-whistle Of course, that requires that you trust the werewolves in question...

Then there are questions of things like "is the fae in question so low power that the Grey Lords don't bother with them?  Are they high powered so they can buck the 'order'?  Have they been placed as spies/moles/sleepers deliberately?"  I can't help thinking that beings that routinely may live a millennium or more make long plans.  What about the part fae in this, too?  They can touch iron with no problem, usually, so that won't give them away, but will they be disposed to help the full blooded fae, given how those treat the part-bloods?  Could the US government suborn some part bloods to spy the other direction because of that?  >D
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gryphon340 on March 10, 2012, 08:06:57 pm
 Silver Short Sword
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 10, 2012, 09:05:11 pm
What about the part fae in this, too?  They can touch iron with no problem, usually, so that won't give them away, but will they be disposed to help the full blooded fae, given how those treat the part-bloods?  Could the US government suborn some part bloods to spy the other direction because of that?  >D

That seems plausable to me. In fact, I'm sure there are  part-faes who highly resent their fae parents, especially those who were abandoned by said parents. It did mention that many of the fae did abandon their half fae children.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 10, 2012, 09:11:51 pm
Exactly!  And,even if they weren't abandoned, they weren't treated well by other fae.

Actually, a new question has just occurred to me; are there other part fae out there who don't know they're part bloods, who might know and cause other problems like Benjamin and his uncle & cousin, whether out of malice, "need", or ignorance?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 11, 2012, 04:02:05 am
I wondered if Beauclaire's daughter would be allowed on a reservation, since she's basically human even if she has his blood. If she didn't, she might well be in danger from any number of sources - people who still think she's fae, people getting at her father, people thinking it's all her fault.

I think it'd be very difficult for any half-fae or low power fae who were 'out' (or at least known to the government) but generally better off away from their own kind.

I wonder if the fae can 'lose' that list that Cantrip had?

Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 11, 2012, 05:58:23 am
I had another "I wonder." - besides partial of the same thing you asked, Temari.
I wonder if Anna & her wolf are better in communication now?  It's revealed that Brother Wolf thinks of communication using words as "baby talk".  Anna had only been a werewolf for three years when they met, and she wasn't taught much of anything during that time.  Maybe that's why Anna's wolf only seemed to speak in single words when she 'took over' Anna's body?  Do you suppose she can talk in longer sentences now?  Or is it a matter of it being like literal baby talk; using very simple words or phrases to get the basics voiced by the youngster, as first step in learning to make complete sentences, and the "this scent, this position of ears, head, tail, means thus and so" is so much more complex than mere words that any verbal type speech is always going to be 'baby talk' to a werewolf?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 11, 2012, 11:47:57 am
I got the idea that, in general, using mere words was baby talk for wolves. In all the books, Anna's wolf always seemed to me to be pretty confident in herself, unlike Anna.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 11, 2012, 11:57:15 am
Maybe I'm over cautious with the spoiler bars, but I'd rather be safe than make someone sorry.

You're a mom, you probably know far better than I do, how  much trouble a three to five year old can get themselves into, confidently.  And that young a wolf might or might not be able to draw on the human persona's vocabulary.  I don't know.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 11, 2012, 01:31:10 pm
Makes sense.

That's true, a 3-4 yr old is often very confident "I'm much better at this than you, mum.". They also can have a large vocabulary, even if they may use it in ways that an adult might find a little unexpected. "The rain is vigorous today."  :)

Youth on its own might well be a good reason for why her wolf is so confident - it just sees things simply, as a child. Young children also don't have as much empathy, so her wolf would see little reason why she should help humans out by saying more words, if she doesn't feel like doing so.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 11, 2012, 02:01:42 pm
I got the feeling that Brother Wolf thought of words as baby talk because he found them much less precise than what his senses told him.  My impression was that those communication methods which would be more complex for human (metaphor, analogy) are to him a pale reflection of what he is able to project to Charles because his projection is a better reflection of reality.

 When Anna wants him to use words, it's like us trying to convey complex ideas without the linguistic tools that we would usually use, like one does when speaking to children.  He may also think of Anna's attempts to use that type of sense reflection to be like a toddler's use of the word vigorous--not quite right.

As far as Anna's wolf, I don't know that you could view her use of words as a sign of immaturity but rather a lack of interaction with Anna.  Remember, most weres do not have any thing close to the relationship Charles has with Brother Wolf.  And I don't think we've seen enough of Anna's wolf to make too many judgments about her.

In fact, I was a bit disappointed that we did not see more of Anna's wolf in Fair Game.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 11, 2012, 02:25:04 pm
 :D Good stuff, you two.
Anna's wolf - It would have been nice to see more.  However, stop and think barring Sam taking over from Samuel in "Silver Borne", we don't see much of anybody's wolf, except Charles and his unique relationship with Brother Wolf.  I think both having been there since birth (or before?) gives them more chance for BW to be his own being.  All other werewolves to date have had their wolves "grafted on" to their human selves, and they've been taught that it's a, what's the phrase? "facet of themselves" more or less, rather than a separate being.  It doesn't get the chance to see, hear, think about things the way the human part does, and it hasn't had a chance to go through being a child/cub, so it may be effectively a traumatized 'person', like a kid who is thrown straight into a sweat shop as soon as they can understand "No!" "Sit!" "Hunt!" more or less, with no chance to play or acquire a sophisticated vocabulary or emotional range.  --I'm talking through my hat there, this is just libra blather.   LOL  Say X and I'll argue C.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 11, 2012, 04:34:25 pm
:D Good stuff, you two.
Anna's wolf - It would have been nice to see more.  However, stop and think barring Sam taking over from Samuel in "Silver Borne", we don't see much of anybody's wolf, except Charles and his unique relationship with Brother Wolf.  I think both having been there since birth (or before?) gives them more chance for BW to be his own being.  All other werewolves to date have had their wolves "grafted on" to their human selves, and they've been taught that it's a, what's the phrase? "facet of themselves" more or less, rather than a separate being.  It doesn't get the chance to see, hear, think about things the way the human part does, and it hasn't had a chance to go through being a child/cub, so it may be effectively a traumatized 'person', like a kid who is thrown straight into a sweat shop as soon as they can understand "No!" "Sit!" "Hunt!" more or less, with no chance to play or acquire a sophisticated vocabulary or emotional range.  --I'm talking through my hat there, this is just libra blather.   LOL  Say X and I'll argue C.

Makes sense. In the previous two books, Anna's wolf tended to stay in the background unless she is needed. The more confident Anna herself gets, the less likely her wolf is to come to the fore. She communicates with Anna more in emotions and words, and since Charles is holding back from Anna for a large portion of Fair Game to avoid hurting her, he wouldn't really be talking to Anna's wolf.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 12, 2012, 01:21:49 am
I agree that Anna's wolf only helped Anna when needed. It'll be very interesting to see if she starts to take on a different role now Anna doesn't need so much help. I wonder if Anna's wolf is more separate because she's Omega, or because of her traumatic start to being a wolf. In the first A&O book Charles didn't realise that Anna's wolf was helping Anna in bed as Anna's eyes didn't change, so I think the wolf was doing something quite unusual - unique to Omega? unique because of the situation? both?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 12, 2012, 05:38:32 am
I agree that Anna's wolf only helped Anna when needed. It'll be very interesting to see if she starts to take on a different role now Anna doesn't need so much help. I wonder if Anna's wolf is more separate because she's Omega, or because of her traumatic start to being a wolf. In the first A&O book Charles didn't realise that Anna's wolf was helping Anna in bed as Anna's eyes didn't change, so I think the wolf was doing something quite unusual - unique to Omega? unique because of the situation? both?

I think part of the problem most dominants have is that both the Human and the Wolf are struggling for supremacy.  They start out both wanting to take charge, and soon go to war over control of body and soul.  Also since they are taught the wolf if a part of themselves, most people just think they are fighting their inner demons on wolf magic steriods.  Or in this case their inner wolf.

With Anna not only was she, by her very nature, not at war with her wolf.  She actively turned to her inner wolf self for comfort and protection, when the human half was overcome.  Whether it was a part of what made her an Omega as a human, that touched her inner wolf and made it calm, helpful and interested in her wellbeing, or if her wolf spirit half came equipped with similar only wolf-centric omega qualities, the result seems to be the same.

The struggle for supremacy and the more violent and uncontrolled wolf qualities were either lacking, unconsciously controlled, or channeled in the most natural and appropriate manner possible.  I don't think Anna, by nature of her personality, would try to hurt the wolf half when it surfaced.  Quite the opposite, she viewed the wolf half as a savior of sorts and source of inner strength to turn to when her human half couldn't handle the load of a world of pain and abuse.

Far from viewing her wolf half as an uncontrolled bundle of violent emotions, like most new werewolves, half-trained Anna didn't like the thought of dominating her wolf half.  Which was more helpful than not.  She didn't fear it or herself.  I think this is a key difference.

Adam, Mercy's Mate, at one point feared for Mercy's safety because he and his wolf are at odds.  Samuel on the other hand has probably the second or third most self aware and unique wolf personality we've come across.  Charles actually views himself as two souls in the same body.  Now he grew up from childhood with his wolf half.  Samuel didn't and yet his wolf seemed like a wolf like mirror image of himself, separate but drawn from the same base stock and molded into his wolf half.  Anna's wolf has been described as more closely twined with her than Brother Wolf, but still much more separate an entity than most other wolves she's seen/encountered.

I think Anna's human half was so much more complex and mature than her were-side that unlike Charles, her wolf won't have quite the same chance to develop into a completely separate personality.  On the other hand, if wolf spirits go through something like childhood when they merge with a human, then when her wolf is tempted to throw a tantrum I bet she unconsciously soothes it and does all correcting that's humanly possible through the soft love approach.  While normal were's immediately start spanking when the 200 pound baby wolf in the mental room starts throwing its weight around.  Thus forming much more of an adversarial relationship and as we can infer, stunting their growth.


P.O.P.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 12, 2012, 08:04:05 am
That sounds quite plausible.  It makes me curious if we could see into some submissive wolves, and see what the difference is there too.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gryphon340 on March 12, 2012, 12:18:17 pm
 Let's not forget juriors as Oathbreakers too
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on March 12, 2012, 01:33:15 pm
Let's not forget juriors as Oathbreakers too
Agreed.  I think the jurors are the major oath breakers in the trial since the found him innocent.  I would be interested to see if anything happens to them.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Zealith on March 12, 2012, 01:34:55 pm
Probably, the people who testified count too. I'm sure a few of them lied on the stand.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: bookworm on March 12, 2012, 01:46:08 pm
Okay, I haven't made it all the way through reading this thread (I'm late to the game, but I just finished the book!), so if I'm repeating, sorry.

I'd point out that, in regard to fae off the res now that the res is a different nation, well, they DO have glamour. As long as they slip out without being seen it's easy enough to put on a "face" no one knows and go visit your off-res friends or what-have-you. And yeah, as someone else said, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ones who were never outed are allowed to stay off--it would be useful, after all. Bran is just told that the "fae have retreated to the reservation." In fae speak, the lack of an "all" modifier leaves a lot of wiggle room!

Overall, I ate this book up. It was great! However, I wasn't surprised by Les Heuter as the baddie; he had it written all over him from the get-go.

Was anyone else very VERY intrigued by Anna's ruminations on having babies? (I'm sure someone else must've been, since there's a whole thread around her dedicated to ideas for making that work :D). I liked how that was slipped in there and I find myself hoping something comes of it, hopefully in future A&O books (I'm rooting for a contract extension  :D), but I'd settle for something in the sidelines of a Mercy book!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 12, 2012, 04:46:30 pm
Okay, I haven't made it all the way through reading this thread (I'm late to the game, but I just finished the book!), so if I'm repeating, sorry.

 ----Snip---

Was anyone else very VERY intrigued by Anna's ruminations on having babies? (I'm sure someone else must've been, since there's a whole thread around her dedicated to ideas for making that work :D). I liked how that was slipped in there and I find myself hoping something comes of it, hopefully in future A&O books (I'm rooting for a contract extension  :D), but I'd settle for something in the sidelines of a Mercy book!


Yeah I'd been going on and on about how something like this was bound to crop up.  Be it from evil mad scientists, or were-women of various levels of sanity and determination.

I actually think Anna has a better chance than most.  I'd think that as long as the Omega soul is in the body, calmness and peace should continue to radiate.  Thus that one particularly grizzly example should be precluded, at least in her case, and entirely as a hypothetical.



P.O.P.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 12, 2012, 04:48:48 pm
That sounds quite plausible.  It makes me curious if we could see into some submissive wolves, and see what the difference is there too.

Being submissive one would think that if dominate and control stunts things then they should have a better chance.  Still if they can't control their were-wolves somehow...

I agree.  Interesting to explore.



P.O.P.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 12, 2012, 05:00:14 pm
I mean in general, male or female submissive wolves, which... I'd kind of like to see a statistical breakdown.
High dominance,
low dominance,
female,
submissive,
omega,
overlaps, i.e. female omegas & female submissives.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 12, 2012, 05:07:32 pm
I mean in general, male or female submissive wolves, which... I'd kind of like to see a statistical breakdown.
High dominance,
low dominance,
female,
submissive,
omega,
overlaps, i.e. female omegas & female submissives.

I suspect we are like mid ranking pack member with a great idea.  We run around pestering everyone in the pack who'll put up with us.  Then go to the Alpha to get us national figures he likely has no way to get.

It'd make a great little scene.  "But Alpha," we whined.  "We're on the verge of making a discovery that could save and improve countless were lives!"

"You're going to stop pestering me before I decide to lose my temper.  If you are genuinely interested in improving lives, the pack did a number on Dustin's rug.  You look like just the two intrepid wolves to go and fix it up nice for him.  Otherwise scram my little packlings, before Dady gets mad."


P.O.P.

(As always Patty is free to use anything I post in any way she likes, other than to sue me)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 12, 2012, 05:18:33 pm
Actually, since Bran does keep track of numbers in packs anyway, as evinced in the original A&O short, he or Charles probably does have basic statistics for North America, anyway.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 12, 2012, 05:35:54 pm
Actually, since Bran does keep track of numbers in packs anyway, as evinced in the original A&O short, he or Charles probably does have basic statistics for North America, anyway.


Just like our big time Alpha Patty Briggs does, I'm sure.

Just as Bran could tell them, Patty B. or Mike could tell us.  How likely is it that we will be given access to those figures?  (Sigh)


P.O.P. :(
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 13, 2012, 07:46:44 am
But we already know that submissives are very rare among the were and Omegas much more so.

I think POP is right when he speculates that in dominant weres the wolf and man fight for dominance over control.  However, I wonder if the "wolf as instinct" thing is more of a modern invention.  The last few hundred years has seen a marked shift away from that type of spiritual thought, so that younger weres would be significantly more uncomfortable with the idea of being two-spirited. That may lead them to reject the wolf, which could lead to disaster (ie. the vet (name???) from moon called).

In contrast, the medieval mindset was much more open to the idea of spirits and supernatural forces, which might explain why Samuel views his wolf as a separate being.  Added to that, he has had a millenia to come to terms with his wolf, which may explain why he can allow Sam out for short periods.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 13, 2012, 11:54:17 am
Wonder if the Judge and Prosecuter will turn up dead because they're Oathbreakers!

Just carpet bomb the areas!
Also someone said the same of the Jury and the witnesses.

My impression was that the trail Defending lawyer did a careful job of speaking the truth as much as possible, while still trying as hard as possible to frighten the jury. The defence lawyer is supposed to give the defence that the defendant says - so if Heuter told the lawyer that he was forced into his crime then the lawyer MUST repeat this. There's an interesting article I read from a defence lawyer that answered the "But what if they are clearly guilty?" She said that the ONLY way you know that they are if if you were there, in which case you are a witness and cannot be their lawyer. If not, then you MUST put forward their case as truth - however unlikely, it MIGHT be possible and it is not your place to judge. So no - I don't think the defence lawyer is an oathbreaker.

Nor do I think the Prosecutor is one - as far as I can tell he did his best to try and convict Heuter?

Nor the judge, because once the Jury said Not Guilty I don't think he has any option but to let the defendant go? Even if they'd said Guilty and then he'd given a pathetic sentence that's still not lying?

So - the Jury? Were they lying? What did they really believe? It's possible that they really believed that Heuter was forced to commit the crimes. I agree that it doesn't seem likely though, and that knowing he was 'only' killing fae and wolves made the difference. So they thought he'd suffered enough / hadn't done anything so terrible given the victims / etc, rather than thought, "He is innocent". In which case, yes, they are oathbreakers, for they did not give their true opinion.
Even if the fae don't get them, I suspect they are going to be very, very unpopular. While there will be many who blame the fae for the situation, I think many others will find the jury an easy target - "If they hadn't given that false verdict then none of this would have happened!" A nice thought.  :)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 13, 2012, 12:07:34 pm
Quick correction/note; it was NOT only fae & werewolves killed; it started with orientals, and moved on from the young Asian girls to African Americans, Mexican/Spanish, and Italians; "gooks, spics, and dagos" per Travis.  That the jury, which should have had some people of one or more of those ethnic groups in it, let those go as well as the OTHER victims speaks very ill of them.  I won't be sad if somebody  :-whistle does something bad to any or all of them.   Oh, and the judge was female.

"Getting" the complicit jury is a classic trope, by the way, for revenge stories.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 13, 2012, 12:44:41 pm
I think the implication was that most of the human victims would have been killed either when Les was a child or before he began helping his uncle.  The murders began in the 70's and Les was only 29(?).  I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know how they would have charged him for those murders.

Also,I think the defense was trying to do two things 1) convince the jury that Les had been brainwashed by his uncle and 2) making the victims so terrifying and inhuman for the jury that they would stop sympathizing with the victim and start sympathizing with Les.  Not an uncommon strategy for defense lawyers.

The issue of Oathbreakers could come in with the judge as most judges are able to approve or disapprove the defensive strategy--whether to allow a certain theory of the crime or present certain evidence.  It can allow a judge to steer a jury toward a guilty or not guilty plea.  As far as the lawyers being very careful about what they said, I think that has to do with how the appeal process works, rather than with not wanting to offend the were or Fae.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 13, 2012, 12:47:34 pm
Good point, Patti. Though all the early ones were the Uncle on his own, though, so not relevant to Heuter? Or were the later non-fae ones? I can't remember when Heuter joined in verses when the fae came out. I did wonder if the prosecutor had grilled Heuter more on the child (last but one murder), who I don't think was actually fae (in database by mistake I think?), asking him to confirm what he did to the child, if the jury would have behaved differently?

Snap, jenniwee!

Re your last point:
I didn't think the lawyer was trying to win favour, simply as you said being very careful that he didn't say anything untrue and hence damage his case.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 13, 2012, 12:58:33 pm
Good point on the age/start of the spree, Jeniwee.  :)
As Temari said, (I think...) the fact that not all the victims after the younger generation joined in were supernatural was still underplayed by the defense, and you have to wish the prosecutor could have had a chance to hammer on that a bit more after defense gave their side of things.

I'd also, if I'd been on that team, have wanted to point out that "he made me" is BS.  Les worked for a government agency, and was sworn (presumably) to uphold the law.  Killing any citizen of the US - and "spic, dago, or gook", fae or werewolf, they were all citizens as of the time they were abducted, is illegal.  The minute he got to whatever his first training was for his job, he could, and should have spilled the beans about his uncle and cousin.  Of course he should have done it the minute they "tried to rope him in" but I think we're all pretty sure he was not forced, not one smidgen.  The prosecution, the judge, and the jury all ignored that completely.   Sucky.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 13, 2012, 01:05:59 pm
T--We must have been writing at the same time  :P

Good point about the human boy.  However, the defense would probably have argued that the intent was to kill Fae and in law intent is very important.

But that list brings up a whole bunch of questions for me.  I was rereading and I remember Charles noting that the first Fae, the one that Charles knew, was not out.  So the question becomes, how did Travis know?  Was there an earlier list that the government kept?  How would Travis have gotten that?  Did the "good" senator know more than we think?

Oi! Patti was posting while I was typing this one!

I think the issue of brainwashing would have brought up competency issues.  And remember Heuter says to Anna that his job is to protect the country against people like "you".  So, he probably justified his actions by claiming that his "patriotism" place him above the law.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gryphon340 on March 13, 2012, 01:21:45 pm
First it was Masscheuts State Disrict Court not Fedral Court, though it wasn't clearifdy by Patty. Secondly the earlier victums were done by the older Hueter by himself until 2000, over mutiple state Jurdirstion.
Plus the earlier victums do not have runes craved into them.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 13, 2012, 04:28:19 pm
Regardless of the Murders/mindwash.  They both (the two younger heuters) took credit for raping the Daughter of the Fae Prince in the hearing of Anna.  Then there is whatever the Daughter said.  So even if you give them a pass on murder.  The Rape victim was there in court and I don't remember hearing anything about how the Cantrip man was saying he didn't rape her.

So the Jury is in hock for not caring about that one and letting him walk.  In addition I've seen cases where the Judge chose to over rule the jury and impose her own sentence.  So unless that specifically didn't apply here, the Judge can fry along with every single one of the Jury and reap what she's sown for the country.


P.O.P.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 13, 2012, 05:57:23 pm
I remember that the judge kept a guard between herself and Charles, Anna, and any of the fae, including Lizzie, while they were testifying.
So she was of the same mind as the jury. I thought her fear of Lizzie was especially telling. Charles, okay, I can see that. Anna...maybe...if all you knew was that she was a werewolf and hadn't personally spoken to her. But Lizzie was on crutches, walking with a severe limp, with scars all over her. Yeah. Real scary. I'm with y'all, I hope the judge and jury bite the dust sometime soon. I doubt they even paid attention to the fact that some of the victims were human, and if they did, they probably blamed the deaths on Benedict, and maybe Travis. People can convince themselves of just about anything.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 13, 2012, 06:01:40 pm
Since Frost Burned will take place at least partly in Boston, we may see some of that kind of fall out.  Should be interesting from that standpoint too.

Oh!  I just remembered, Leslie & her boss, Nick Salvatore know that it was Adam and "mostly his wife" killed the River Devil, so I wonder what they'll be expecting from those two when they arrive?  Plus the fact that Adam called in someone "higher up" means not only that he's got higher ups, but he has enough pull with them to get someone(s) of Anna & Charles' caliber called in to replace him.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 13, 2012, 06:07:32 pm
I predict that at least one person will wildly underestimate Mercy, especially if they're mentally comparing her to the werewolves. Maybe not Leslie or Nick, but someone else.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 13, 2012, 06:09:15 pm
I consider that a "gimme", Kkat; at least one person in every book does that.  Preferably the bad guys, of course...  ;)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 13, 2012, 06:15:42 pm
I'd like to see a book where the opposition overestimates Mercy start to finish.



P.O.P.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 13, 2012, 06:18:07 pm
I consider that a "gimme", Kkat; at least one person in every book does that.  Preferably the bad guys, of course...  ;)

Why do you think I made the prediction? I have a 99.999% chance of being right! LOL
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: marci8300 on March 14, 2012, 10:35:52 am
If you stop and think about it, everyone thinks that Mercy is either a werewolf or a fae.  She denies being either one of them.  I wonder why everyone underestimates her when they all think that.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 14, 2012, 10:41:27 am
Not everyone; there are many people who don't know that she is supernatural at all, just that she hangs out with werewolves and at least 2 fae, Zee & Tad.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 14, 2012, 11:22:56 am
I think a lot of people DO suspect that Mercy is fae, though, due to the company she keeps. I wonder if that might lessen though, now she's married Adam? Because people look at someone who is friends with loads of wolves, etc and thinks "Why?" But then they look at someone who's dating / married to one and thinks "Oh, they have a thing for wolves and are friends with all the others because their lover is".

Back to Fair Game - that was a good point about the judge - first that she was overly scared and second that she didn't act against the jury in any way. So ok, add her to the oathbreaker pot.

Humm, another thought on that - I wonder if any strings were pulled to get that particular judge?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: marci8300 on March 14, 2012, 11:40:11 am
I am willing to bet that if Bran decides to do further investigating that the jury was bought off and the judge was part of some anti werewolf/fae organization.  In some states, judges are elected officials.  It appears that in Boston, werewolves/fae aren't accepted.  Remember how many times it was mentioned that the werewolves were having problems with the police?

I am actually a paralegal and my boss is also a Magistrate (a partime judge).  She tells me that in jury trials, it is extremely rare for a judge to overrule a jury.  It also causes more problems if the judge does do that, especially in the appeals process.  Therefore, most judges avoid doing it.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: mtomni on March 15, 2012, 08:16:02 am
Just think, we now have a year to find out what's happening next.  Argh!!!  Way too long! :(
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gryphon340 on March 15, 2012, 09:51:44 am
How the Judge was an oathbreaker. First, the bailiff between her and the supernatural witness', It was prejudgual to jury. In modern court room almost impossiable to do, because most court rooms I've been in the witness stand is attached to the Bench. Secondly allowing the Minnesota photos to used as evidentance in this trail, because those photos have no relievance to the Boston crimes. Minnesota was never in the Big game hunter's terrories for hunting. Thirdly, By Allowing he made me defense, Has never been an aceptable in all of Americian Jurispurdence.

The D.A. was an oathbreaker because he never made a motion to have the judge recussed or had  motion to exculed th Minnesota photos. Plus I don't think he give his best to try the case.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 15, 2012, 10:00:59 am
We don't know that the prosecutor didn't try to get a change of judge, that section was fairly short.  He or she - or they, given the size of the case - may very well have done so.  The Minnesota photos... I'll have to re-read.  I'm not sure I recall those being there.  If they were, it would have been something the defense would have argued as relevant as showing what the three of them were supposedly "defending the country from". 

It's still a specious argument, though, as you say.  If the country needed to be defended from werewolves or fae, it should be done by governmental agencies under oversight of civilian authorities, just like FBI, CIA, HS, or any other governmental armed body, not by loonies in secret.  The fact that they kept it secret proves they knew it was wrong.

Personally, and almost as a separate issue, I think somebody should wake up and say "Excuse me?  There have been werewolves and fae and such here since before there was a USA; just like the 'Indians', so why should we need to be protected from them any more than we are from the other natives?  Why should we have to legislate their citizenship status?  This is - especially for werewolves - just like legislating AIDS, because it's not something most were born with, it happened to them, mostly against their will."
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gryphon340 on March 15, 2012, 10:04:28 am
Page 284 Second paragraph Patti
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 15, 2012, 10:06:15 am
Good catch.  I stand by what I think the reasoning was for allowing it.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 15, 2012, 10:34:26 am
I did wonder how that evidence got included - also that they said it was definitely wolves that made that kill, which at the start of the book I thought the wolves were trying to cover up.

I also wondered about the made-me defence, but I don't know US law. I can see that in certain circumstances it would seem reasonable e.g. man holds loved ones hostage and threatens to kill them to make someone do a robbery. But in that case the offence (theft) is less than the threat (death). In the case where a hostage (or the actual person) is threatened with death unless they kill, I wouldn't expect that to be an adequate defence. Mitigating, yes, but not absolving.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: gryphon340 on March 15, 2012, 10:38:54 am
they weren't trying to cover it up, just kill the dumbasses who made a mess of things.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 15, 2012, 10:42:13 am
it was too late to cover up the kill of the pederast when Charles got there, they'd done such a bad job - actually, no job, the kid walked into the body - that they couldn't hide it.  Getting the wolves who were that stupid taken out was all Charles could do about that.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 15, 2012, 10:50:51 am
Ok, I need to re-read that, I thought they were still trying the 'wild dogs' approach.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on March 15, 2012, 01:33:48 pm
I did wonder how that evidence got included - also that they said it was definitely wolves that made that kill, which at the start of the book I thought the wolves were trying to cover up.

I also wondered about the made-me defence, but I don't know US law. I can see that in certain circumstances it would seem reasonable e.g. man holds loved ones hostage and threatens to kill them to make someone do a robbery. But in that case the offence (theft) is less than the threat (death). In the case where a hostage (or the actual person) is threatened with death unless they kill, I wouldn't expect that to be an adequate defence. Mitigating, yes, but not absolving.

It shouldn't have been an adequate defense. I don't have any legal experience, but given that he admitted to the crimes, he should have gotten at least the minimum jail time-not sure what that is.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: bookworm on March 15, 2012, 02:41:59 pm
Short of an insanity defense, you have a point Kkat. And, even with that, he should've been put in an institution for observation.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 15, 2012, 07:48:59 pm
On the matter of the defense--"insanity" pleas or defenses do not always lead to institutionalization for the defendant.  Basically, the defense will argue that in some way the defendant has been temporarily or partially incapacitated but is still mentally competent.  In this case they probably argued that Heuter was unable to tell it was wrong to kill because he had been indoctrinated since childhood.

This type of defense can be offered in the American legal system, but must be approved by the judge.  Because judges have a near total control over their courtrooms, they can influence how trials progress.

Another judge may not have allowed the indoctrination defense, but, clearly, the judge has a very strong bias against the Fae and the weres.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: jenniwee on March 15, 2012, 07:56:02 pm
To be clearer--The defense needed the pics to demonstrate Heuter's mental state, the judge allowed those pictures into evidence (she could have excluded them).  We don't know whether the prosecutor moved to have them excluded or not, but Patty does say that he put on an exhaustive case, so I assume he did.  In many cases both the pics and the defense would have proved prejudicial but that does not always mean that the judge would have ruled that way.  Look at the history of hate crime in America and you will see a pattern of "those-people-scare-me" being allowed as a legitimate defense.  And too often an effective one.  Disgusting but true.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 15, 2012, 08:49:44 pm
One of the things that made the greatest impression out of all the things I "learned" in middle school was a video we watched during a unit on stereotypes, where the speaker made a great point about the power of fear and hatred as a unifying force.  He wasn't defending it, merely pointing out that if you give frightened people a common enemy... they will come together, usually in a destructive way. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 16, 2012, 04:45:40 am
Interesting to know - so the judge was very involved in the injustice. Oh well, I bet she's really scared now.  :)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Cerulean on March 16, 2012, 11:45:59 am
On the matter of the defense--"insanity" pleas or defenses do not always lead to institutionalization for the defendant.  Basically, the defense will argue that in some way the defendant has been temporarily or partially incapacitated but is still mentally competent.  In this case they probably argued that Heuter was unable to tell it was wrong to kill because he had been indoctrinated since childhood.

This type of defense can be offered in the American legal system, but must be approved by the judge.  Because judges have a near total control over their courtrooms, they can influence how trials progress.

Another judge may not have allowed the indoctrination defense, but, clearly, the judge has a very strong bias against the Fae and the weres.

Some thoughts on the defense:

Not guilty by reason of insanity (NGRI) is very rarely used as a defense - less than 1% of cases use it. Of those, less than 1% use it successfully. There's also guilty, but insane verdicts, which are also rare. The defense must prove the status of mens rea - that the defendant did/didn't perform the actions with the intended outcome. Essentially, did he know what he was doing was wrong and would harm someone? Still, it's clear that Hueter did know what he was doing would harm someone, but they might've tried to make the defense that he didn't realize it was wrong since he'd been brought up that way. Of course, given all the evidence and the low likelihood of this defense being successfully used, this status as a government agent (who really should know better), and the heinousness of the crimes, clearly the only reason he didn't get convicted was prejudice and fear.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Moonbeam on March 17, 2012, 06:19:41 am
I loved this book. Some of what I post is going to sound lik things already said, but I had a couple of comments on the trial. It is too hard for me to copy and paste several posts on my iPhone for the purpose of responding to specific posts one by one, so that is why I might seem like I am repeating wha has already been said. I apologize in advance.

Like Anna, I am into police procedurals. I know more about New York state law than laws in my own state simply from looking stuff up online to verify is something I saw in Law and Order is plausible.

First off - the defendant in a trial can only be charged with the specific murders in which he participated. The defense would almost certainly move to exclude from trial not only any evidence regarding previous (and therefore non-fae/werewolf victims), but it is possible the prosecutor could have been instructed to avoid any reference that there even were any previous victims. It is also possible that the prosecution was barred from mentioning any out of state victims. Given the judge's sympathies, this seems likely to me.

As far as the, "He made em do it!" defense goes... It is basically a Stockholm Syndrome defense. There is a long standing legal precedent for that defense. It has had varied results from juries across the country. I believe they found Patty Hurst guilty, after all. It is inexcusable that a government official with training would still behave that way, but I believe their argument was that the brain washing started so young that he was already irreversibly brain washed before he ever joined Cantrip. Obviously a crock, but juries can make all sorts of mistakes out of fear or ignorance.

Of course, anything that is suppressed at trial is still fair game for the press and th court of public opinion. But the jury would have to have been sequestered.

The legal definition of insanity is that you did not understand your actions were wrong. You can theoretically be perfectly sane and still argue for insanity in certain cases. Also, to reply to one poster - no, he wouldn't get a minimum punishment just for acknowledging that he committed the crimes. He would only receive punishment automatically if he plead guilty to the crimes. If he pleads guilty, there is no trial. In order for there to be a trial, he would have to plead not guilty for whatever cause is specified. And if you are found not guilty, then that is it. No punishment. You are free to go.

As to the issue that the little boy had not been fae - very possible that that fact was withheld from the public and from the prosecution. Having grown up with a father that worked in intelligence, it is completely plausible that the FBI withheld that fact from the other agencies for their own purposes. And I doubt they felt any obligation to share it with the state unless they thought it would significantly help their case. They found out something very important, after all - that Cantrip's records suck. They have a vested interest in Cantrip not realizing how much they suck. Highlighting the mistake during trial would lose them that advantage.

I am interested by the fact that the Feds were not able to identify Charles. He mentions in the other book that the government sometimes follows him. That begs the question of - who in the government? Someone has to at least know enough about him to know he is worth being followed. And whomever that is, or whatever agency that did that before the weres came out has evidently not shared the info with the FBI, Homeland Security, or Cantrip. At least - not that we know of yet.

It has also been mentioned in previous books that "the government" knew about werewolves before they came out. It was one of the reasons for the need to come out. However, I got the impression that none of the agents who appeared in Fair Game had known anything. So what level of government knew, and will it matter later on? If someone in government knew about weres before they came out, then they al let certainly still know a good deal more than these agents.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 18, 2012, 09:47:38 am
http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/demotivational-posters-chloroform.jpg
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 18, 2012, 10:41:48 am
You raised some very interesting points there, Moonbeam.

Especially that the out-of-state case might have been ignored - I do wonder if that was the case - it'd make the trial look very different - i.e. he killed just a few people, this year, is different to killing many year after year.

Also that the fact that the boy wasn't fae was withheld - that's a very good reason to, and the FBI might have felt prior to the trial that would make little difference (and perhaps it wouldn't have done!)

I think 'the people' in government could well have just been a few agents of some department plus a few more people at high level, or might even have just been within the military perhaps? I can see that they would be reluctant to share that info early on because even after the fae came out they could well be ridiculed, and also that knowledge is power and it loses that power after it becomes common knowledge. After the wolves came out they would then stay quiet about previously knowing to stop everyone from saying "Why didn't you tell us before?"
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 18, 2012, 10:54:01 am
There's a chat on the book right now at http://us4.chatzy.com/13988508505163
with forays into Frost Bitten, if you care to join us.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 18, 2012, 02:42:25 pm
Isn't that Frost Burned?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 18, 2012, 02:54:23 pm
Guess so. *embarrassed*  Mixed it up with another WW novel already out by another author.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: MrsPearce84 on March 21, 2012, 03:59:38 am
 :-LOVE :-LOVE :-LOVE  :-LOVELet me just say (now that I have finished reading the book) AHHHHH. I can't believe what a truly amazing book this was! What a journey! What an ending! Now I need to wait for my husband to finish reading it so I can gush about it with him too  :D

& love all the discussions on this thread already!  bOuNcY

I advoided this thread until I'd received my copy & read it through just because my control really is not that good  :P.  But a thought I've had reading through here (love how you all manage to do that) - Now we know Beauclaire is also Gwyn ap Lugh, whom, it has been pointed out, could be son of Lugh, not THE Lugh. This is my train of thought. I got the impression from Mercy's interaction with the Oakman in BC that perhaps Lugh is now no longer around - quote - "Fair spearman was I once,” the oakman said. “And Lugh was better still. Nothing he built but what couldn’t become a spear when needed.”  - I know the past tense could just be referring to events long past. It just struck me as if the Oakman was talking of someone he knew who was no longer living.

Now that stupid trial - most biased, obvious outcome (no complaining here). Patricia Briggs told it only as it could've & would've happened. Humans like to think of them selves as top of the food chain & predator, but really they've engineered the planet to make them FEEL that way. Once it appears there is something that doesn't fit nicely into their preconceived ideals, fear & loathing take forefront in their brains with the need to "squish it"  >:( Hope we get to see all involved's comeuppance  >D hehe
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on March 21, 2012, 04:12:26 am
I've just finished re-reading the book.  :)

I noticed this time at the trial that Beauclaire looked at the judge and the jury before leaving. I think that was deliberate, and he will make sure there are consequences for what they have done.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: MrsPearce84 on March 21, 2012, 04:23:48 am
Temari, absolutely! Living a long time would give you a good memory & I bet he was memorizing their faces  >D

Can't wait to see how "justice" is exacted upon them........ if we ever find out  :(
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 21, 2012, 07:50:37 am
I'd expect that If or when the fae do go into negotiations with the US Government over a new status, as a - or several? - separate states/nations, one of the terms of agreement would involve extradition of said parties.  Make your wills, people.  And, if you're of one of those religions, make your peace with your maker, or ask for forgiveness of him/her.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: MrsPearce84 on March 21, 2012, 04:23:41 pm
Oh & on another point - we get a glimpse of Bran's age in this one too  bOuNcY

I can't remeber the exact line (will have to find it but husband is reading it at this moment) but I know in one scene where Bran is reflecting on something he remembers something that was 1000 yrs or more ago  :D - thank you for that hint Mrs Briggs. Also I'll have to look up Ivanhoe but I think that gives us a clue as well as Bran knows it is historically inaccurate.....

Okay looked up Ivanhoe & it was set in the 1100's. I'm thinking that even by this stage, for Bran to have thorough knowledge on the historical inaccuracy, he was already well travelled & probably after his beserker period. Completely guessing here, but that's my line of thinking.

I'm guessing this may be something for Bran's threads though   :)

I'd also wonder what Isaac will be like when he has some experience from age?? He's already a clever cookie  ;D
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kyria on March 21, 2012, 05:44:25 pm
Yes, but I was thinking there was something in another book that put Bran and Samuel at at least 1,000 years old already...
For instance, there's something in Cry Wolf about Beowulf having some reference to Bran as the Berserker, and (according to Wikipedia) Beowulf probably dates back to around 1000 AD.  Which would necessitate Bran being older than that... probably several human generations older, in order for the story to have integrated with other stories to become Beowulf. 
Charles also postulates that Bran may be older than Asil, and Asil dates to the 700s (the time of Charles the Great/Charlemagne), which would indicate that Bran is possibly 1300 or older; however Asil later states (in internal dialogue) that he remembers Bran's time as the Berserker, and at that time Asil was less than a century old.  Which would mean that some time probably in the late 700s or early 800s was the berserker-era.  On the other hand, we don't know if "less than a century" means 20 or 99; Bran could still have been living but under his mother's control before Asil was born. 

So, at a best guess, Bran is within a century or so of 1300 years old. 
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: MrsPearce84 on March 21, 2012, 07:21:57 pm
Kyria, you should head over to Bran the Marrok thread. There has been extensive discussion on Bran's age. I was just pointing out that we've been given more clues / confirmation to the speculation that is Bran's age. Also with another reference ("Ivanhoe") to add to the database of knowledge surrounding this aspect of Bran

Not that we'll ever be given a definitive age.  >:( But I suppose that is part of Bran's mystery, & he likes it that way. I wouldn't be surprised if he has "ordered" Samuel not to disclose Bran or Samuel's real age.....
Title: Who else wants more of Isaac?
Post by: mimi on March 23, 2012, 04:14:41 pm
I took a quick look and didn't see this anywhere, so I'm starting it here and the moderators can correct and move it if I'm in the wrong place.

The Alpha of the Olde Towne pack caught my attention on my first read of [u]Fair Game[/u], but then he really piqued my interest on the second read-through.  In MHO, anyone who "wants to be Charles when he grows up" deserves a story story/novella/stand alone book of his own.  Who's with me?  It could go in all kinds of directions which I hesitate to list here because I don't want Patty to have to avoid a story line because one of her readers thought of it.  But, there are all kinds of ideas floating around in my head right now and I think Isaac would be a very interesting lead character - black witch and all. ;D


Moved the post to here for the time being because of the spoilers - discussion can open up for other characters after the 6th.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 23, 2012, 04:27:25 pm
I definitely want more Isaac!  :D  And, if you look at the video of the March 7 read, Q&A, & signing Patty did in Seattle WA, you can see me ask that - and her answer.  (it's very near the end of the hour) The link I'll bring over again.

Here you go:  http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6808.0
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: mimi on March 23, 2012, 05:40:17 pm
Ooooh, I'll have to look at this one.  I only saw the joint signing video.  Thanks!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 23, 2012, 05:43:00 pm
That's what it is, near the end of the joint Q&A session.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: proteusmoteus on March 27, 2012, 05:36:25 pm
Could only read the past two pages of the discussion because of how annoying the spoiler tags are. They don't make much sense either, this being a spoiler thread.

Greatly enjoyed the book. The verdict at the end seemed inevitable with the US's history of jury nullification. The whole trial seemed reminiscent of the racism of post civil war US and the flagrant acquittals murders of blacks received in that time period.

The fae reaction makes for a great twist. Can't wait to see the overall reaction in the next Marrok book.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 27, 2012, 06:18:51 pm
The spoiler tags can be a drag, and it does seem redundant, but even with the penguins doing their spoiler dance, there are people who will wander into the thread and be peeved to see the information nekkid in front of Ghod and everybody, so we put up with it... oh, and Elle took out most of them up UNTIL the last couple of pages, after the first, amusingly enough.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 30, 2012, 07:09:20 am
I just last night realized something about Anna's growth, too.
She did a sort of analysis of "there are three of them, that's a pack," and on from there.  She's starting to think more easily of things in relationship to being a werewolf.  The villains aren't werewolves, of course, but they are predators, and as such have a predator pack mentality, which she noticed and used in helping to find and deal with them.  Do you suppose she could or would have done that immediately after "Hunting Ground"?  I suspect not.  My reasoning is that she hadn't had enough time and experience in a well run pack - I hesitate to say "healthy" with Bran's bunch of psychos  LOL - at that time to have really gotten into the dynamics.  My impression is that she had absolutely as little to do with any of Leo's pack as she could manage for her first three years.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Elle on March 30, 2012, 08:35:51 pm
Could only read the past two pages of the discussion because of how annoying the spoiler tags are. They don't make much sense either, this being a spoiler thread.

It is hard to read, I agree. :) We only spoiler bar a book for the first month of it's release, this usually gives the majority of readers the chance to get through their copy and discuss without accidentally spoiling members who access new posts over directly entering the threads.

As Patti mentioned only the first page of this thread and the last two pages still have their bars but they'll be removed on April 6th, a month after the release date of Fair Game. Which should make it easier to track the discussion.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: YuleRule on March 31, 2012, 11:39:16 am
Is there a transcript of the Seattle Q&A? It’s just much easier for me to read whatever than to watch a video.

And in response to a discussion some pages back about the wolf part of the werewolves, I think that not all wolves would be able to think/speak even as clearly as Sam or Anna’s wolf. Sam can, just because he’s over 1000 years old, and Anna’s wolf is an omega. I think most wolves are just ‘beasts’ and probably only those that are over a certain age can even communicate if thaey ‘take over.’
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on March 31, 2012, 11:40:54 am
Don't know of a transcript, sorry.  You might PM to either Has or Elle, as the ones who find the links for most of the interviews.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Elle on April 06, 2012, 02:47:23 pm
Fair Game has been out for a month. All the spoiler bars have been removed from this thread. Using them this first month was just a courtesy to make sure no one got accidentally spoiled. Feel free to continue the discussion but leave off using the spoiler bars. Thanks all!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on April 13, 2012, 08:53:21 am
I had another thought - Alastair couldn't help his daughter's knee injury, but I wonder if that was lack of ability or restricted ability - now he's free to do what he likes I wonder if he could help her now?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on April 13, 2012, 08:55:54 am
I doubt it; other fairly major healings have been done in the Mercyverse in the past few "years" without consequence to the Fae; I think he honestly doesn't have access to the magics needed, or isn't willing to pay the price.  Or have Lizzie pay it.  Consider what Baba Yaga did for Mary Jo and the results TO Mary Jo.  Not so good for a dancer to suddenly collapse, now is it?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on April 13, 2012, 09:41:29 am
True, also there might be a difference in magic. His magic might not work for healing. This is what I assumed anyway, that he would have had to get some other fey with healing magic to do the healing and for whatever reason that did not happen. Wether it was a question of logistics or power play.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on April 13, 2012, 09:56:13 am
"Fair Game" page 233
"Healing is among the great magics and we have very few healers among us -- and most of them are even less trustworthy than Treasach's gift would be."
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on April 13, 2012, 10:36:29 am
Yup. That is what I vaguely had in mind.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Temari on April 14, 2012, 12:07:01 am
Ah, so even if he could lean on them now with his extra power, it wouldn't be a good idea to do so. Good point about Mary Jo too, she's not at all happy with her 'gift' of life.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Janilee on April 27, 2012, 05:26:29 pm
Did anyone ever wonder if  Lee Jennings of  pg. 90  "Have you ever worked with Lee Jennings?The guy the Behavioral Analysis Unit sends to interview nasty guys in prison?" might be a potential omega?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on April 27, 2012, 05:31:12 pm
I thought about that too.  :)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Janilee on April 27, 2012, 05:34:31 pm
Maybe it'll come up in the next book. Or it could just be left hanging there.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Kkat07 on April 27, 2012, 05:37:15 pm
Would be neat.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on April 27, 2012, 05:58:18 pm
My impression is that he IS an Omega, but a completely human one, like Anna before Justin.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on April 28, 2012, 01:46:58 am
I did not think about it that far, but that is the impression, that he is a human omega and they recognize the effect he has on people in Anna.

*rereading time*
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on April 28, 2012, 03:59:42 am
I thought he sounded like an omega as well.  That might be a good story line of him getting involved with someone from the pack and then getting changed.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on April 28, 2012, 04:56:06 am
Well except for the part about nobody but a rabid wolf being able to attack an omega.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Janilee on April 28, 2012, 05:17:13 am
Except for the occasion of the human omega facing certain death as in the case of Ric Postinger.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Varg on April 28, 2012, 05:24:14 am
Yup, and when I think about it, even if it would be horrible for Jennings it would make for a good story.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Janilee on April 28, 2012, 05:47:44 am
Either as a short story or a subplot. :)
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on April 28, 2012, 07:54:05 am
Oh, can you imagine? -- and this veers off into the "there's an unspecified Mercyverse book contracted" territory -- but what if he was nearly killed by someone he was questioning, or even a sniper - don't get the Omega effect from a quarter mile away, I bet - and was changed by a werewolf as an attempt to save him, and the rest of the novel was him adapting to the change, being tutored on being Omega, and solving whatever case got him nearly killed, plus the fight to keep his job and his status as a human in law, which would bring the rest of the werewolves back into the fold of U.S. citizenry legally?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Janilee on April 28, 2012, 07:56:27 am
 :D Yeah, I can imagine.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Patti L. on April 28, 2012, 08:00:26 am
I think it would be really cool; we've only had either people who -- I'm going to take it to a different thread, this is zip to do with Fair Game, barring the one character.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Rob on April 28, 2012, 12:18:01 pm
Have just finished reading Fair Game....

....Loved It!

Was expecting Agent Goldstein to be the "Big Game Hunter".....for me, Heuter was a dangerous bigot, but I didn't get the psycho vibe.....


Can't wait to see how the Fae declaration effects both series!!  should be interesting......but I'm with the Fae on this one.....
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: mtomni on July 24, 2012, 08:17:26 am
I keep looking, but so far I haven't seen anything on the A&O series continuing.  Has anyone heard anything yet?
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Elle on July 24, 2012, 03:44:51 pm
Nothing yet. :) Patty hasn't posted what the book coming out after the release of Mercy 7/Frost Burned will be. We'll definitely post it here when we know though!
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: mtomni on July 24, 2012, 07:15:09 pm
I hope that Fair Game isn't the last one.  That would be extremely disappointing!
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on September 25, 2012, 08:26:35 pm
Just doing some re-reading of FG, and noticed the pack affiliations of the werewolf victims. One from an unnamed pack in Vermont - and it's not called "The Vermont Pack", so I think we can assume there's more than one pack in the state, and one from Seattle.  Wonder if it was anyone Charles & Anna met?
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Kyria on December 07, 2012, 09:29:11 pm
I'm re-reading Hunting Ground and I just realized this.

In one of the earlier stories (A&O or maybe CW), Anna describes Charles's change as beautiful (although he states that it still hurts).  Normally when he changes slow or "bad" like other weres, it's because he's injured or exhausted or both.  But when he changes from wolf to human when they're checking out the scene where the little boy was found, he changes fast but the humans seem disgusted, horrified, and train-wreck fascinated. 
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Janilee on December 07, 2012, 09:51:17 pm
Could that be the difference between a human's perspective and a werewolf's perspective? Anna knows how bad it can be. Charles relatively easy change would seem to her to be beautiful. A person who has never been through the painful change, and who has never seen the body change, might look upon it in a different way.
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Kyria on December 07, 2012, 09:53:57 pm
Perhaps. 
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on December 08, 2012, 04:57:36 am
That is a good point Janilee.  I think becoming a werewolf would skew the way a person looks at certain things.  While to a non werewolf the shift would probably be frightening to see because someone is becoming a "monster", to another wolf there would probably be shades of attraction to it based on the strength and power of the one changing. 
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on December 08, 2012, 08:41:34 am
Or it could have been she was referring to Charles himself.  Or it could be an author continuity error, which I suspect.  I'z suspicious. ;D
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: katy on December 08, 2012, 10:23:29 am
I think there were a couple of things going on there -- one was that in Fair Game, Charles had done a lot of changing back and forth, and was perhaps a bit reluctant to be in human form at that moment, only changing because he needed to be able to speak to the detectives.  So that change was maybe slower and more graphic than his usual change.  The other thing, though, was that the earlier change Kyria's referring to was in the other direction.  It's right near the end of A&O, when Charles wakes up in the safe room after having been wounded.  He changes to wolf, and it's described as "like a blanket of red fur the change rolled up his body" -- going to human wouldn't have the advantage of fur appearing to obscure the more gory parts.
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Kyria on December 08, 2012, 10:39:37 am
That's a good point about the fur, Katy. 
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Varg on December 08, 2012, 10:53:14 am
Good points all around.

Also, you are inspiring me to reread.
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Mike Briggs on December 12, 2012, 09:19:40 am
Or it could have been she was referring to Charles himself.  Or it could be an author continuity error, which I suspect.  I'z suspicious. ;D

I'm with Patti.  LOL :-whistle A certain author just had to re-read her whole series because she couldn't remember all sorts of details.  Also, bless the forums and the canon pages, for without them this story would be more contradictory than Lost or The Matrix.   So far, most of the inconsistencies have been minor, thank goodness.
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: ElefiNecol on December 12, 2012, 10:46:16 am
I've updated the Continuity section of the WeresFAQ. :)
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: Kyria on December 12, 2012, 12:25:36 pm
Or it could have been she was referring to Charles himself.  Or it could be an author continuity error, which I suspect.  I'z suspicious. ;D

I'm with Patti.  LOL :-whistle A certain author just had to re-read her whole series because she couldn't remember all sorts of details.  Also, bless the forums and the canon pages, for without them this story would be more contradictory than Lost or The Matrix.   So far, most of the inconsistencies have been minor, thank goodness.
Fortunately (as you can see here) minor continuity discrepancies are often discussed, dissected, and then satisfactorily justified by us. :)
Title: Re: [A&O #3] Fair Game Discussion
Post by: ScarlettPepper on December 08, 2013, 05:15:36 pm
I agree though it may be just me but I dont see the errors sometimes when I read unless it's a huge one , and with Fair Game agree that he had been under a lot of stress I think if not then it would be more of the Shaman side that make it simpler to change and that's something that helps both Anna and Charles.

Like the time from On the Prowl story with Charles going into the bathroom and coming back out as wolf and Anna says she didn't even hear him change.
Title: Re: SPOILERS Discussion of Fair Game after publication!
Post by: Melanie on August 11, 2021, 03:13:54 am
On a slightly different topic, is Gwyn ap Lugh a "real" fairy? (By that, I mean is he someone who can be found in current faery lore, like Baba Yaga, or is he a persona of Patty's own creation?) Also, what was the significance of the 59 black horses?

Lugh and Gwyn ap Lugh are real!
The 59 horses could be part of the Wild Hunt.

Lugh:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugh
Lludd was probably another form for the name Nudd:
http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/welsh.html#Nudd
Alistair Beauclaire, Gwyn ap Lugh:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwyn_ap_Nudd
http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/welsh.html#Gwynn
Wild Hunt lead by Hern the Hunter or Gwyn ap Nudd:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt