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Patricia Briggs' Books => Mercy Thompson | A&O Books Board => The Weres => Published Books => Topic started by: Kyria on January 14, 2011, 10:26:28 pm

Title: [Mercy #6] River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on January 14, 2011, 10:26:28 pm
So the sample chapter is up on the main site!  YAY!

It looks like maybe I was right to be worried about Stefan...
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Patti L. on January 14, 2011, 10:35:22 pm
What I'm wondering is if the vampire from the movie, who they were talking about, might be part fae, and the reason that it's supposed (per ...Stefan?  Andre?  One of Stefan's flock?) to be forbidden to turn anyone that is not wholly human? And if that will play a part in the plot down the line...   :-whistle
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Kyria on January 14, 2011, 10:44:25 pm
I thought so too, Patti.  The fact that  Stefan didn't know if he was dead or not, seems suspicious to me, as if it might be important in the future...  And if he could be out in the daytime, well... We've already met one vampire who could come out in the daytime, haven't we?  He was using fae blood to do it.

BTW, favorite line:  "He was like Superman, but with fangs and oddly impaired morals."
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Has on January 15, 2011, 05:27:53 am
I actually think the vamp that might be a fae could be Bloody-gauntlet guy - something about the way he was described makes me think he is and even the Seethe was scared of him.
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Nifty on January 15, 2011, 06:05:08 am
I'm just happy to have Stefan back, and happy that Mercy is obviously going to do her part to kick his butt back into shape.  And happy that Warren fed him also.  And ALSO happy that in his impaired state, he still defended Mercy.  When the scene first opened, I was a little afraid that he was maybe too far gone.  (Although in retrospect I don't know why I thought that.  He wouldn't feed from her / hurt her when he apparated into her trailer in Bone Crossed, and he was way far gone at that point.)
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: CarolKat on January 15, 2011, 08:38:09 am
I am so glad that Warren fed Stefan, love the wedding chatter.  Six weeks and butterflies!  LOL Maybe it is a honeymoon trip after all!  ;D
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Kyria on January 15, 2011, 08:46:31 am
I'm just happy to have Stefan back, and happy that Mercy is obviously going to do her part to kick his butt back into shape.  And happy that Warren fed him also.  And ALSO happy that in his impaired state, he still defended Mercy.  When the scene first opened, I was a little afraid that he was maybe too far gone.  (Although in retrospect I don't know why I thought that.  He wouldn't feed from her / hurt her when he apparated into her trailer in Bone Crossed, and he was way far gone at that point.)
I figured that Stefan was trying to ignore her, so he wasn't going to come out unless he had to... in other words, the only way he was going to face her was if she was in danger first and he had to protect her. 
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: YuleRule on January 15, 2011, 04:50:49 pm
Why is everybody so happy that warren fed Stephen, again? I laughed so hard as I was reading about the wedding, i can't even imagine werewolves and butterflies together. Ford is pretty scary. i keep wondering when he'll become a full fledged vampire.
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Patti L. on January 15, 2011, 05:01:31 pm
Ford is scary, all right!  Stefan needed the meal, so that was reason one.  Reason two is that it made things safer for his menagerie.  Reason three is that it reinforces the friendship between Stefan & Warren.  There may be others.
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Nifty on January 15, 2011, 06:16:22 pm
Stefan needed the meal, so that was reason one.  Reason two is that it made things safer for his menagerie.  Reason three is that it reinforces the friendship between Stefan & Warren.  There may be others.

Not just the friendship between Stefan and Warren, but also between Stefan and the Pack.  And while Stefan is not as strong as Marsilia, Stefan IS strong, and it's good for the Pack and for Mercy to have a strong ally amongst the vampires.  Stefan needs to get back to normal for his own sake, and for him, the first step is regular snacks.
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: CarolKat on January 15, 2011, 06:19:16 pm
Feeding from a were was good for him as well, he will be able to go back home and feed his people. One more step to getting back to normal.
Title: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Patti L. on January 15, 2011, 06:25:27 pm
There is that extra something that vamps seem to get by feeding from werewolves, at that, as a fourth reason.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Rider on January 16, 2011, 08:40:53 pm
Also perhaps because of the part Warren played in Blood Bound? Gives the two of them more background.

I absolutely loved the sample chapter, had me cracking up especially the part with the wedding and the cattle prod bit. I can't wait to read the rest, only complaint is Adam, Jesse, and Ben weren't in it lol.   LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Kyria on January 16, 2011, 11:26:52 pm
You know, just yesterday I was thinking that we seem to be a little short on Ben love recently.  I'm not sure he's up for hanging out with Warren and Kyle for Bad Movie Night, but would have been nice to see him. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Mike Briggs on January 17, 2011, 12:21:43 am
Since most of this book takes place away from the Tri-Cities, many of the regular cast don't make an appearance at all.  This is a problem with a long-running series.  You either do a Hardy-Boys, where all the interaction takes place between a handful of people, or you introduce new characters.  Patty's problem is that she's never learned to write a two-dimensional  walk-on character who basically says, "Don't mind me, I'm 'innocent victim #3' and I'll be permanently offstage in just a minute.    Instead, she ends up with a cast of thousands, and everyone rooting for their favorite players to get more stage time! 

To make it worse, she introduces a bunch of NEW characters.  Le Sigh. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Has on January 17, 2011, 05:45:33 am
New characters - Ohhhhhh I like new characters. I think that is one of the disadvantages of having a large cast but then its a good thing too because for me it makes things fresh and can take a long series into a different direction although it is nice to hear and see what the older characters are doing but I can understand.

Looking forward to what the new characters are like! ;D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Jabulani on January 17, 2011, 05:52:37 am
I actually think the vamp that might be a fae could be Bloody-gauntlet guy - something about the way he was described makes me think he is and even the Seethe was scared of him.

But why would Stefan then say that he doesn't know whether the movie-vamp was still alive?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Has on January 17, 2011, 06:27:41 am
Stefan didn't really say that Schrek was part fae though- he said he was old and very very scary. I don't think he will show up in the books but you never know but I think bloody-gauntlet guy was introduced for a reason and I thought he looked strange and I think he is definitely one to watch/
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Kyria on January 17, 2011, 09:05:18 am
New characters are great too.  Don't worry, I know the book will be wonderful and that will make up for any 'lack of screen time' by my favorite characters.  As long as I know that my favorites haven't gone completely missing or something!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Elle on January 17, 2011, 09:05:30 am
I do love new characters.

Has, you have a good point about Gauntlet Vamp. There is something different about him and hopefully we'll get to meet him again later in the series. I'm still not sold on him being a hybrid but I do love the wide berth that everyone gave him in Bone Crossed.

Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Patti L. on January 17, 2011, 02:31:43 pm
Wow, lots of fun stuff to comment on.
It's only the first chapter, there's a whole rest of a book where we might hear about Ben, Honey, etc., etc.!   :) 
And Mr. Mike has taken care of that with his information; he's doing his Ben thing, away from Mercy & Adam doing their Alpha Pair Hardy Boys thing.
Then regarding the 2 current candidates for "part-fae vampires"; well, ONCE does not cause (usually) a ban; they could BOTH be part fae, and the reasons that it's forbidden, couldn't they?  (Patti's ebil complication mart; 2 for 1!)
Given the attention paid to Gauntlet Vamp, yes, I do expect to see him causing more trouble somewhere along the line, but if we've done without him for one book, we could go for two; vampires "live" long enough that they don't ordinarily rush into things, I don't imagine, even in their politics.
But the fairly elaborate build up of Schrek at the beginning of this book says to me that Patty means to use him IN this book, for something.

But that's my opinion, feel free to disagree, you may be a lot closer to the 'truth' than I am!  Isn't it fun?  LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Elle on January 17, 2011, 07:33:40 pm
Quote
But that's my opinion, feel free to disagree

I'll bite. ;)

I don't think we'll see Schrek in any of the upcoming books. I'm going to consider it a one off discussion during Bad Movie Night. Maybe we'll start a poll on it after RM comes out.  ;D

I don't imagine we'll see many vamps in RM other than Stefan but you never know there.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Patti L. on January 17, 2011, 08:05:45 pm
But we will get butterflies.  Maybe.  (http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/339/d/1/Butterfly_by_renekotte.gif)  LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: CarolKat on January 18, 2011, 07:44:28 am
I think this is going to be more about the walkers and the creature.  And of course the wedding plans and/or wedding. Patti love the butterfly smiley! LOL LOL LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Varg on January 18, 2011, 11:26:04 am
I agree Elle I do not think vampires will be a big part of RM. Butterflies.... maybe LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: gingkogirl on January 20, 2011, 09:51:36 am
I agree, I think this scene in Chapter 1 is introductory and lets us catch up with Stefan but that the vamps will probably be scarce in RM.

So, do you all think we'll get to actually see a wedding in this book? I mean, Mercy tells us in Chapter 1 that the wedding is 6 weeks away. Generally, the action in a book does not run that long.

It would be great fun to read the actual event, with or without butterflies!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Varg on January 20, 2011, 12:42:59 pm
Who knows. Hopefully *fingers crossed*
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Rider on January 22, 2011, 07:13:06 pm
Since most of this book takes place away from the Tri-Cities, many of the regular cast don't make an appearance at all.  This is a problem with a long-running series.  You either do a Hardy-Boys, where all the interaction takes place between a handful of people, or you introduce new characters.  Patty's problem is that she's never learned to write a two-dimensional  walk-on character who basically says, "Don't mind me, I'm 'innocent victim #3' and I'll be permanently offstage in just a minute.    Instead, she ends up with a cast of thousands, and everyone rooting for their favorite players to get more stage time! 

To make it worse, she introduces a bunch of NEW characters.  Le Sigh.

Lol as long as Mercy and Adam are there I'm happy. Actually one of my favorite thing about Patty's books are the characters, they're all so real, it's impossible not to love (or hate) them.

Back on topic... I agree, I doubt there'll be much vampires in RM. I was under the impression it would focus more on Walkers and ghosts (and possibly sea monsters I'm convinced there's something in the river that's going to try to eat Mercy), but who knows?

Wedding wise, I hope so! If not in RM maybe in Book 7. Could be a nice ending after the Trailer Trip of Doom.  LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: DandelionWine on February 03, 2011, 03:12:39 pm
Why is everybody so happy that warren fed Stephen, again? I laughed so hard as I was reading about the wedding, i can't even imagine werewolves and butterflies together. Ford is pretty scary. i keep wondering when he'll become a full fledged vampire.

Ok, I'm totally new here, but I couldn't resist signing up so I could comment, when I read the part about the doves, then the pigeons, all I could think of was werewolves at the wedding getting startled and chasing the doves as they took off... ok maybe none of Adams wolves would be so sloppy as to lose control and actually chase them, but maybe a *snap* of teeth by several at the very least!

Since I'm new I hope you will forgive me asking this in 'not quite' the right spot, but has it been mentioned if the Audio book will be released at the same time as the print version?  Thanx.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Kkat07 on February 03, 2011, 06:52:56 pm
Welcome to the Hurog board, DandelionWine! Amazon only has the print and Kindle version of River Marked listed; I don't know about any other versions. A good place to check on the forum would probably be the Other Media section; I think they include stuff about audio books there.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Mike Briggs on February 03, 2011, 08:50:48 pm
Heck, even Patty and I can't keep track of the audio editions.   :-'   It's worse than trying to keep track of the comic books.  Sometimes, we find out they're available because somebody writes to tell us what they thought of the narrator.  It's a crazy world!   :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: courtju on February 08, 2011, 08:33:33 pm
Whenever I got to the main site I can't find the sample chapter for the new Mercy book...can someone send me a link?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Patti L. on February 08, 2011, 08:42:44 pm
http://hurog.com/books/riverMarkedChapter.shtml
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Elle on February 11, 2011, 07:02:12 pm
It's getting closer and closer to the March 01 release date of River Marked.

We've been seeing a few copies of the novel bouncing around the internet on book blogs so we may soon be getting some online reviews showing up. If these reviews have major spoilers let's try to keep the reveals to a minimum until after the official release date.

We have the spoiler chat coming up on the 20th so we can go spoiler crazy there but let's not give away any major spoilers here on the board before RM-Day. If you're not sure, black bar it.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: midnight on February 14, 2011, 01:45:05 pm
I'm not sure if this is a real review or if someone has just made it up, but it's about river marked.

Just be warned however, there are some serious spoilers in it.



http://harstan.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/river-marked-patricia-briggs/
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Has on February 14, 2011, 01:52:40 pm
There is reviews cropping up - Goodreads also has a couple on there as well. And I know a few bloggers have review copies so expect them coming up on review sites this week or so ;D

But if anyone is going to comment on this review (its Harriet Klausner- so not sure if its 100 percent correct- she does get things wrong in the past as well as really spoilery) Please use the black bars of doom- Thanks! :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: yasmine on February 19, 2011, 04:37:55 am
Well we have just over a week to go before we get more answers!!!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: NP on February 21, 2011, 03:05:17 am
Hello,

I just wanted to inform you that River Marked (British paperback version) is out in Europe! I just received my copy from Amazon. Can't wait to start reading! :-))
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Nifty on February 21, 2011, 04:31:30 am
I just wanted to inform you that River Marked (British paperback version) is out in Europe!

(I'm so jealous that t England, they issue the paperback and the hardback at the same time.  I really hate hardcover books, but it'll be a year here in the US before the pb is released.  (And I want to own the Mercy stories so I can re-read them over and over any time I want, so borrowing from the library won't cut it for me for this series.))
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Patti L. on February 21, 2011, 11:51:06 am
The debate on Marji & Mercy's relationship has been split back off; when the book has been out for 4-6 weeks, we'll move it into the relationship discussion area.  For now, it's in a separate thread again; please continue in both threads to use spoiler bars.   Just because it's in the spoiler area, that doesn't mean people aren't going to forget and look at new posts.  This will save some grumbles.  :)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: NP on February 23, 2011, 09:30:34 am
OK, here are my 5 cents on the book, having completed it yesterday:

- What the hell was Adam thinking??? Letting the honeymoon destination be determined by Fae?
- Finally, some clue why Mercy is so special: she is Coyotes daughter! (Well his avatar's daughter, to be exact.)
- I really hope that the future bad guys do not get any larger than the river devil...
- I really thought that Mercy could get faster healing through the mate-/pack-bonds (see Bone Crossed).

And finally:
- more, More, MORE ;-) (Stefan, Adam, Jesse, Ben, Kyle, Warren - you know the list).
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Has on February 24, 2011, 10:03:48 am
second quote from the River Marked giveaway was posted on twitter -

“You go anywhere near that punch or any other alcohol today, my wolves are going to interfere.” #2RM

:D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Zealith on February 24, 2011, 12:34:07 pm
We're quoting it now? My favorite quote from the book was, "Nothing says 'I love you' like a dead bunny."
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Elle on February 24, 2011, 12:37:41 pm
No, there's a twitter contest on Patty's site. Guess 3 quotes and get entered to win a book. ;)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Pfefferminztee on February 26, 2011, 03:15:10 am
I really enjoyed River Marked. Thank you, Patty!  :)
Coyote is a new favorite character of mine. Seriously, that guy is just awesome. And I loooved the Adam/Mercy-time.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: midnight on February 26, 2011, 07:27:30 am
I've just finished River marked. All I can say is wow. Adam/Mercy relationship, Mercys father, river monsters, native american people and stories, the wedding, just wow.


 :-LOVE  :-LOVE   ADAM   :-LOVE :-*

I completely adore this man, I really do. :-* :-*

Mod Note: Edited for spoilers.
Title: Ya, River Marked!
Post by: Adolpha~Of~Blue~Moon on February 26, 2011, 06:15:11 pm
Hi, i'm anew joinder and this is my first post, but I just got the book River Marked! I had it pre ordered, and i'm living in Canada so I got the book early here! Well thats all.  :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: highcountryrider on February 27, 2011, 11:58:55 pm
On Audible!  bOuNcY
(audiobook)

River Marked
by Patricia Briggs
(Coming March 1, 2011)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: CarolKat on February 28, 2011, 04:12:35 am
Midnight tonight!!!!! bOuNcY bOuNcY bOuNcY bOuNcY bOuNcY
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Kkat07 on February 28, 2011, 06:50:17 pm
 bOuNcY bOuNcY
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Elle on March 01, 2011, 04:35:45 am
Hi everyone! Welcome to the official release day of River Marked. Enjoy the book and feel free to discuss it in this thread without spoiler tags. If you're going to take discussion of RM out of this thread into other sections of the board you'll need to use the spoiler tags for these first 2 months. This is a courtesy for other members who haven't had the opportunity to read the book so that they won't be accidentally spoiled.

Code: [Select]
[spoiler]Insert River Marked Spoilers Here[/spoiler]
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Australian Emm on March 01, 2011, 02:41:57 pm
I don't need a step ladder, I have a Mercy  :-LOVE
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 01, 2011, 02:47:56 pm
Adam didn't approve of Walmart

I LOVE THAT LINE :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: got-dragonz on March 01, 2011, 05:16:51 pm
I'm new to posting, but I just gotta say I loved RM.  I had pre-ordered it on amazon and it came a day early, so of course I had to stay up til 2:00 am and read it.  Now I'm going to go back and re-read the whole series finishing with a second, slower reading of RM.

It was really great to have so much of the book focusing on Mercy and Adam together, and it was interesting learning more about Mercy's shifter side - though I did miss seeing more of the regular characters.  There were so many great scenes - Bran calling Mercy a treasure, Adam having to undo all the buttons, the dead bunny, Mercy on drugs...  :D  I'm really glad that Patty included Mercy's letter at the end - it was a pleasant surprise.  I'm kind of going to miss the walking stick though, it's been so helpful to Mercy in the past few books.  Also, I hope Coyote comes for a visit in another book, he's a great character.

I have a question about the spoiler chat mentioned on page three of this thread - I hope it's ok to ask this here - there used to be chat archives, and I hoped maybe the spoiler chat would be available to read.  Even though I've read the book, some of the spoiler info adds to it.  I looked all over the site and couldnt find anythng...
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: JenRar on March 01, 2011, 06:30:03 pm
I just have to say I ran out and bought the book first thing today, read it almost nonstop, and absolutely bawled at the end, simply because I was done.  lol  I'm going to do what the last person said and reread them all, including the 2nd, slower, more thorough reading of River Marked.

Fantastic!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 01, 2011, 07:47:20 pm
Just Finished! (*&#% my students were so SLOW doing labs today.  They were there twenty minutes AFTER I was supposed to be home, reading happily in the Mercyverse!)
The book was DELICIOUS.  Loved it. 

First off, so happy to see the wedding!  I liked it, because I'd have been sad to see Mercy elope and get married without any of her friends there.  Also, I enjoy seeing people conspiring against others... as long as the outcome is good, and I'm not the intended victim. 

I have mixed feelings about Adam giving Mercy one of his dog tags.  One of my very best friends in high school was National Guard, and he gave us a little bit more graphic details of the "one tag is left with the deceased soldier" thing... but he was ridiculously proud of the things anyway.  They're important, yes, and symbolic, but that doesn't mean I don't have graphic nightmares about that particular practice. 

LOVED the "Nothing says I'm sorry like a dead bunny" quote (totally need that on a T-shirt...) - there were some real winners in this one! 

I liked Coyote, but I particularly liked that Coyote and Charles have apparently had words over Mercy, and that Coyote described him as terrifying, but a good man.  I wonder what Wolf would say about Charles and Brother Wolf.  or Bran's wolf, or Sam, for that matter. 

That said... *beats Adam over the head with a regular, non-walking stick, stick* WHAT WERE YOU THINKING LETTING THE FAE INFLUENCE YOUR HONEYMOON!?  *headdesk*  OK, so it might have gone very badly if Mercy hadn't been there - just as Yo-Yo Girl suggested - but he has nobody to blame but himself for putting his Mate in danger this time. 

So... when is the next book out again?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 01, 2011, 07:52:37 pm
I love the amount of love in this book.  Not just Adam & Mercy for each other, but Bran, Charles, Samuel, Zee.  And Joe.  And even Coyote...
I love how right and wrong we were, both at the same time, about different things; them eloping - but not; Coyote ("The Coyote") as her father, but not; honeymoon, but not...
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 01, 2011, 08:02:27 pm
Well said, Patti.  Don't forget love for/from Mercy's sisters, mom, step-dad (who apparently gets along well with Bran... whoah!), Jesse...
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Nifty on March 02, 2011, 09:04:40 am
The parts with Coyote were my favorites....  Well, really, I liked that whole deal at the henge with the animal spirits.  I thought it was cool.  And I liked the juxtaposition of the native-American magic with the european magic (fae, werewolves).

And nice resolution about the walking stick!! :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: gingkogirl on March 02, 2011, 09:42:04 am
I love the Kindle pre-order feature as the book was waiting for me when I woke up at 5 am!
Of course I had an insane day and had to sqeeze my reading in but I did finish at 11 pm last night.
There is so much to love about River Marked and while my obsessive nature might have liked more details about  the wedding: how did Mercy wear her hair? did she have a veil? rings? Adam gave her rings? when and what did they look like? etc, more details might have slowed the story down. The scene was lovely in its simplicity and emotion.
I enjoyed meeting Coyote and all the information or not information he had to share. I am sure that is going to impact future stories.
Loved the humor, loved the love shown by all the characters.
At the end I had a thought. Will Mercy's mortality be impacted by the fact that her father was basically a human construct or skin of an immortal spirit. I know Patty said she doesn't like to give her characters too much power but is Mercy mortal when her father was not?
So much to speculate and obsess about.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion: Early Reviews and Spoilers
Post by: Jabulani on March 02, 2011, 09:46:25 am
Patty's problem is that she's never learned to write a two-dimensional  walk-on character who basically says, "Don't mind me, I'm 'innocent victim #3' and I'll be permanently offstage in just a minute.    Instead, she ends up with a cast of thousands, and everyone rooting for their favorite players to get more stage time! 

To make it worse, she introduces a bunch of NEW characters.  Le Sigh.

Now why would that be a "problem", Mike. That is exactly what I love so much about Patty's work. Let me tell you something. Only three authors have ever really satisfied my need for truly evocative characterization - in other words, characters that make me fall in love with them, cry and love and fear and get angry for and with them - and they are Eric Flint, Mercedes Lackey and Patty Briggs.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 02, 2011, 10:18:52 am
I love the Kindle pre-order feature as the book was waiting for me when I woke up at 5 am!
Of course I had an insane day and had to sqeeze my reading in but I did finish at 11 pm last night.
There is so much to love about River Marked and while my obsessive nature might have liked more details about  the wedding: how did Mercy wear her hair? did she have a veil? rings? Adam gave her rings? when and what did they look like? etc, more details might have slowed the story down. The scene was lovely in its simplicity and emotion.
I enjoyed meeting Coyote and all the information or not information he had to share. I am sure that is going to impact future stories.
Loved the humor, loved the love shown by all the characters.
At the end I had a thought. Will Mercy's mortality be impacted by the fact that her father was basically a human construct or skin of an immortal spirit. I know Patty said she doesn't like to give her characters too much power but is Mercy mortal when her father was not?
So much to speculate and obsess about.

About Mercy's mortality - I think its a little bit more - she's def not immortal but she's also not fully human. I do like the ambiguousness though. It is fitting in a way just like how father is not her father :D - although I do wonder if there is something about acknowledging is a factor in this. Both Mercy/Coyote wont acknowledge each other but something is there. Hope we see more of Coyote and Gordon!!!! I think they were fantastic!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Varg on March 02, 2011, 10:39:37 am
I really like Coyote too. And the trickster part is so wonderfully ambiguos and fun! :D Of course he is not her father! He was her fater but he is dead.
Yup. Makes perfect sense.  LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: yasmine on March 02, 2011, 11:33:17 am
Okay where's the next book?!  LOL I LOVED this one!!!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: gingkogirl on March 02, 2011, 12:24:25 pm
Quality takes time!
Patty has recently moved to a one book a year schedule.
Since the next A&O book, Fair Game is due in Jan of 2012, I don't
think we'll have another Mercy book until Jan of 2013.
Rereading is a good thing. I am rereading River Marked today!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 02, 2011, 12:29:48 pm
There are, however, a couple of short stories due out in collections between now and then; but that says nothing about RIVER MARKED.

I was fascinated to see Thunderbird as a Walker type along with Bear, Coyote, Wolf, etc.
Also, somehow I thought Coyote had 6 sisters, and was initially thrown off when only 4 appeared to Mercy.

I'm also curious, now that we know what we do; if someone did a genetic test on Mercy; would she show as Blackfeet, Blackfoot, or some other tribe?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: yasmine on March 02, 2011, 12:30:27 pm
Quality takes time!
Patty has recently moved to a one book a year schedule.
Since the next A&O book, Fair Game is due in Jan of 2012, I don't
think we'll have another Mercy book until Jan of 2013.
Rereading is a good thing. I am rereading River Marked today!

I know! I know! But this one was so good...  :P They're like potatoe chips you just can't eat one... LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 02, 2011, 12:39:18 pm
There are, however, a couple of short stories due out in collections between now and then; but that says nothing about RIVER MARKED.

I was fascinated to see Thunderbird as a Walker type along with Bear, Coyote, Wolf, etc.
Also, somehow I thought Coyote had 6 sisters, and was initially thrown off when only 4 appeared to Mercy.

I'm also curious, now that we know what we do; if someone did a genetic test on Mercy; would she show as Blackfeet, Blackfoot, or some other tribe?

Patti that was something that made me go hmmmm too- at the beginning Mercy mixed that up and then at the end when she was talking to Calvin she said Blackfoot. And then he replied she was going to take something precious with her back home. Again it goes back to the acknowledging thing. I wonder if this is going to crop up again. Am I reading too much into this? Because it really feels like this is important or it feels it is leading to something.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: yasmine on March 02, 2011, 12:43:47 pm
What worries me is the reprocussions after this little adventure!!! :o
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 02, 2011, 12:55:06 pm
Oh, of course repercussions; that's SOP in this series, which is one of the reasons we love it.

I'm wondering more on the fact that Coyote - or was it one of the other characters? - kept asking if she was sure of the tribe; just because "Joe" said he came from Browning, that doesn't mean he was from a local tribe.  I'm from Waterville Washington, but my 1/4 to 1/64th AmerInd blood could be Comanche, or one of the eastern tribes, for instance.  My grandfather on that side of the family came up from Texas, and I don't know if it was his wife, his mother, or his grand or great-grandmother who was a full blooded whatever.  I have no idea where the family lived before Texas, nor, indeed, where IN Texas.  And, of course, Indian tribes migrated or got pushed from one territory to another by the other tribes, as well as the #%^* governmental relocation!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 02, 2011, 12:59:25 pm
Do you think each tribe affects reflects or has a Walker's ability? So Mercy saying she's from one tribe confirms/develops it?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: yasmine on March 02, 2011, 01:07:27 pm
Do you think each tribe affects reflects or has a Walker's ability? So Mercy saying she's from one tribe confirms/develops it?

I think that it may have something to do with each walkers abilities... I (being no expert) have read different Native American folk lore and while there are similar components there are also some pretty big differences too...

For example... I'm from the Philippines but we have 118 DIFFERENT dialects... Tagalog being the most common... We're all Filipinos but if you are from a northern island doesn't mean that you can automatically talk to someone from a southern island...
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: retro on March 02, 2011, 01:14:57 pm
if the only people who are born walkers have either a spirit for a parent or both parents are from spirit lines how does the fact that wolf claims the wolf spirit in adam afect thier posible kids? guess we'll have to wait and see.

loved cayote and for some reasone really hope we see a short about when he met stephen >D

loved the book an already rereading it
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 02, 2011, 01:20:42 pm
Well, the same is decidedly true among the NA natives, Yasmine.  They found that out big time (although it should have been known already 9) ) during WWII, with the famous "Windtalkers", where someone had the devious idea of keeping the Nazis or Japanese from understanding our radio communications by having NA radio operators... but the Navajo, Hopi, Cherokee, Blackfoot, Blackfeet, Salish, etc., etc., etc. couldn't understand each other either...
I'm not quite sure if "Do you think each tribe affects reflects or has a Walker's ability? So Mercy saying she's from one tribe confirms/develops it?" is saying/asking if "Blackfeet means you can do X things, you're an X walker; BlackfOOt means you can do J things, you're a J walker", or "Thunderbird only had offspring in X & Y  tribes, so if you're a thunderbird, you can only be from one of those tribes; Coyote had children by women of the tribes in Z area, so if you're a coyote walker, your ancestry has to be from the tribes that are associated with that area."

Coyote/trickster god got around; he's in pretty much every tribe's mythology, either as Coyote or as Raven or Crow, usually.  Bears are in most US environments too... as are Ravens & Crows.  Wolves used to roam across the whole of the NA continent too.  I don't see it meaning much about her ancestry, except that interesting "It ordinarily has to come from both parents, but if THE Coyote is the father, the child will be a Walker, full stop" note.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: cathgarc on March 02, 2011, 01:56:41 pm
Finished the book last night and I just LOVED IT!

The wedding scene was so cute, and of course Jesse and her mom would be behind it. I thought it couldn't have been more perfect.
I loved Coyote. My favorite scene was when he pushes Mercedes into the river when she asks "How big  is it?" I couldn't believe he did that but at the same time I couldn't stop laughing. In the end Mercy cant tell him anything because she did ask and he was giving he a detailed answer.
Stefan's back, YAY! It makes sense that in the end he was the one that came to help Mercy during her rough patch when she did the same for him in the beginning. It wouldn't have been Mercy if she just accepted everyone's help. She doesn't like being dependent on people and the fact that she kicked almost everyone out of the house fits her character. Poor Mercy! I seriously had my doubts for this book if she was going to make it out alive. Thankfully she did, even if this was the worst she has ever come out of a fight.
Then there's Adam. I really loved that we were able to see their honey moon. (even if Adam let himself be set up by the fae) The whole I have Mercy and dont need a stool thing, the dead bunny, him breaking through the trailer (even if it wasn't the first time) all just made me love him even more! Too bad that he keeps having to fly out though and has to leave Mercy :( He needs a replacement ASAP.
My favorite quote: Dad, What did you do to Mercy?
Really wish we could have read his response to that.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 02, 2011, 01:59:35 pm
My favorite quote is still the "I thought it was pretty cool when that little old lady tried to give you a twenty."  ROFL!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on March 02, 2011, 03:31:01 pm
Loved it! The dead bunny line cracked me up; it's definitely one of my favorites.  I also loved the shirt Jesse made for Mercy.  I read the book last night, during my fifteen minute breaks at work, during my lunch break; it's a good thing it was a slow day at work! I want to see more of Jesse, Gabriel, and the pack in the next book, but I also want to see more of Coyote and the others.  I have too many favorite scenes to even begin to analyze them.  I want to know what some of the wedding pranks are that Samuel has told Mercy about. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: cathgarc on March 02, 2011, 04:47:09 pm
Patti, I had completely forgotten about that scene! There were so many great scenes in this book that i had forgotten about that one. I liked when they were in Walmart and she just had to explain herself to those people watching her, only causing herself further embarrassment.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: CarolKat on March 02, 2011, 05:25:16 pm
There are so many good scenes in this book, I loved when Adam's wolf was in charge and wouldn't let her up. Seems like Adam's wolf is as protective of her as Adam is, actually more so since he won't listen to reason.  ;D LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 02, 2011, 05:48:46 pm
I liked Bran's behaviour at the church a lot, him calling Adam 'pup' and all and talking about her being one of his treasures.  It's funny, she was in some ways fatherless, but she's had and still has many willing to step into that spot for her.  Her foster father, her step father, Zee and Bran... 

I'd really like to read her letters to the other people too, after all, it's much better to tell people you love and value them while you're both still this side of the turf!  Saying it during a eulogy about them or in a letter after you're the one gone is just not as helpful to anyone.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: yasmine on March 02, 2011, 05:51:50 pm
I liked Bran's behaviour at the church a lot, him calling Adam 'pup' and all and talking about her being one of his treasures.  It's funny, she was in some ways fatherless, but she's had and still has many willing to step into that spot for her.  Her foster father, her step father, Zee and Bran... 

I'd really like to read her letters to the other people too, after all, it's much better to tell people you love and value them while you're both still this side of the turf!  Saying it during a eulogy about them or in a letter after you're the one gone is just not as helpful to anyone.

I thought that was pretty funny too!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: retro on March 02, 2011, 09:14:23 pm
for some reasone thinking about the wedding scene i can see bran zee and cayote siting around a cafe talking about mercy's past and plans for her. maybee morgaina instead of zee since she's a grey lord who has taken a liking to mercy
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 02, 2011, 10:06:05 pm
I loved Bran in the church, too, and that he and Zee had words over who got to give Mercy away.  That's always been one of my favorite parts of a wedding, because even the most independent of women will always be her daddy's little girl, and there really ought to be a nod to the fact that he is trusting another man to take good care of her.  Even if the "dad" in the picture is only a father figure and not the real father of the woman. 

And it's all the better if he throws in a reminder that if the husband hurts his little girl, the dad will shred said husband into a billion little pieces.  :)  (DO NOT EVER TELL MY DAD THAT I THINK THIS IS NICE.  HE DOES NOT NEED ENCOURAGEMENT, TRUST ME!)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Moonlight on March 03, 2011, 09:31:45 am
That Kindle feature is going to be the death of me.  I can see that now.  I woke up about 2:30 to get a drink of water and there it sat on the counter mocking me.  So I thought, I'll just see if it was delivered.  It was.  And I didn't get back to sleep that night.  Work is so inconvenient at times.  And then I had to go to Patty's book signing last night.  So now I have to reread the book because me sleep deprived brain can't remember half of what I read.  But I will say, I would love a t-shirt with the bunny quote.  Then I would no all the Mercy fans without having to ask!  (Course, I'm not sure how the uninitiated would react.)  I loved Coyote, Wolf, Thunderbird.  Don't count Walking Stick out.  That thing goes where it wants to. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: gingkogirl on March 03, 2011, 09:44:13 am
Thanks for sharing your story Moonlight!
It makes me feel so much better knowing that I am not the only one who does
things like this!
Hope you enjoy your re-read and get some quality sleep soon!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: ppbwashu on March 03, 2011, 10:12:36 am
I loved the book!  So many good scenes!  River Marked definitely made my flu recovery better. :P
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: caerali on March 03, 2011, 11:42:34 am
I laughed out loud and scared the tar out of my poor dog on page 29.  Adam and Mercy were discussing the butterflies.

~~~

"Monarch butterflies," said Adam.  "Can you imagine the poor things trying to figure out their migration route from the Tri-Cities?"

"She has to be stopped before she destroys the ecosystem," I told him only half joking.

Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: YuleRule on March 03, 2011, 04:24:33 pm
Amazing book! I just loved Coyote! Mercy doesn't want to think of him as her father, but does he think of her as his daughter? Also, I was waiting for almost the entire book, until the scene at the end, where Coyote found out that Mercy is friendly to vampires. I wonder what past history Stefan and Coyote have? I really want to see more of Coyote, and the other werewolves reaction to him and everything. In other words, I want the next book out yesterday!  ;D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Interpreter on March 04, 2011, 06:42:47 am
That Kindle feature is going to be the death of me.  I can see that now.  I woke up about 2:30 to get a drink of water and there it sat on the counter mocking me.  So I thought, I'll just see if it was delivered.  It was.  And I didn't get back to sleep that night. 

I specifically stayed up until midnight to download it into my iPad. I read it and didn't stop until done! :-whistle Who needs to be awake at work?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Interpreter on March 04, 2011, 06:56:08 am
I have a feeling that walking sick is going to be trouble now that it has been blooded on the monster's heart. That thing has a mind of it's own.  >D Afterall, it seemed to take over Mercy when she was trying to defend herself with the otterkin. I just can't see PB letting the thing disappear in to the 'sunset' with Coyote. What possible 'fun' could Coyote have with it?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 04, 2011, 08:10:01 am
If you've ever read or heard Coyote stories, you'll know that he's not kind!  He may be a little taken aback by Mercy at the moment.  But traditionally and normally he teaches people hard lessons, and mostly lets them figure things out on their own even if it's the hard way. 

I'm no expert at all, (hey I'm Polish not NA) but I've heard a few of the stories in person and read others... I suspect Coyote will be really enjoying having the walking stick, and with the stick's new mood, the stick will be enjoying it's time with Coyote as well. 

I'm going to hope that Coyote turns his hand at teaching those who are in opposition to the Walker who is Mercy, and not her friends... but he is most unpredictable.  He often teaches humility, even though he's far from humble himself.  If someone's clever enough though, they can win his respect no matter how temporary!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 04, 2011, 09:49:43 am
I finished the book a few days ago and have just been hanging around reading what everyone else thought.  I loved the book though!  It was very interesting that Mercy was able to kind of meet her father and learn a little bit more.  I to would like to know how Coyote knows Stephan, especially since Stephan is such good friends with Mercy now.  I can actually see how Mercy might change Coyote's perception on some vampires with her close friendship with Stephan. 

I also liked the part where Daryll called Adam when he was shot and Daryll wouldn't take Adams word not to come.  I sense that some of the wolves just might look to Mercy for direction more than Adam....now wouldn't that be funny. 

One thing I want to see more of, however, is the tricks that Mercy plays on people.  That just makes the stories more funny.  I would also like to know/hear more about what Bran and his sons have done at weddings.  That would be hilarious. 
Another good story.  Good job Patty!!

Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 04, 2011, 10:49:34 am
I also liked the part where Daryll called Adam when he was shot and Daryll wouldn't take Adams word not to come.  I sense that some of the wolves just might look to Mercy for direction more than Adam....now wouldn't that be funny. 

If it was Mercy who was shot, they wouldn't have taken her order not to come without speaking to Adam.  Because Mercy worries about Adam more than she worries about herself, and Adam worries about Mercy more than he does about himself.

But it's good to see that at least some of the wolves respect Mercy enough to consider her input.  I'm sure that there are still others in the Pack who would say, "Mercy got Adam into trouble again... if Adam says they don't need help, I'm certainly not going to go running to save the coyote's butt."
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: ppbwashu on March 04, 2011, 01:39:49 pm
Ouch.  I certainly have to agree with that assessment, Kyria!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Varg on March 04, 2011, 01:41:57 pm
I agree too, that seems to be more likely than anybody ranking her aboce Adam.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Janilee on March 04, 2011, 02:30:00 pm
I want a short story of Daryll playing paintball.  :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 04, 2011, 02:42:07 pm
You guys could be right but I think a lot of the contention was resolved when Henry was taken care of and the pack members realized that Mercy had a hand in resolving it.  I believe that the pack has also realized that if something did happen to Mercy they not only will have to deal with Adam and Samuel but also Bran.  The pack threw Mercy a party after they found her in Silver Borne so I guess I just assumed that the pack was over it or getting over it. 

If nothing else, I believe that that comment made people realize that Daryll at least respects Mercy's opinion especially when it comes to Adams health. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 04, 2011, 03:36:29 pm
As for the party at the end of Silver Bourne - yes, finding Mercy probably made life in the Pack more bearable because it made Adam (and other upper-level wolves) happy...  And getting the Henry-Paul-Mary Jo issues taken care of helped, too.
But that doesn't mean that the wolves are all reconciled to Mercy's place in the Pack.
Kind of like when you're a little kid and one of your classmates has a birthday party.  Even if you don't like the birthday-boy/girl, you might go to the party because you like (to borrow from my childhood) roller-skating.  Or cake.  Or just the excuse to be with the classmates you do like.  Or because otherwise you'll be left out.  Or whatever your reason. 

Or, probably closer to Mercy's situation: consider a soldier returning home from the middle east.  Regardless of our personal opinions of the conflict there, or of any individual soldier, the majority of Americans are happy to see soldiers returning home safely. 

In other words, just because they're happy that Mercy didn't get killed or permanently enthralled by an evil faerie queen, doesn't mean that they like Mercy any more than they used to. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 04, 2011, 06:28:21 pm
Well, a lot of that is reasonable Kyria, but there's also the info Adam told Mercy about the pack bond, which Mercy has finally gotten the hang of it seems.  They're all more aware of each other at times, but the rough edges get smoothed out, they know who resents who, and why, who dislikes Daryl, who irritates Honey, who looks down their noses at Mercy, and who sneers at Ben etc etc...  but they still have to work together at times.  They know that if Adam catches them being truly nasty he'll *hurt* them...  but yeah, now that the party, wedding and various other excitements are over, there may be some other irritations popping up.

Oh, and Daryl always seemed to tolerate Mercy if only because he knew Adam expected him to, not sure I'd call it respect though... maybe a little, at least respecting a few of her talents, including her talent to manage Adam.  He may not like it, but he's always seemed at least resigned to his need to accept their relationship.

Has anyone considered what Jim Alvin meant when he told Mercy, "I think you are taking something precious home with you from this trip."? 

It's probably knowledge.  Could be new friends... not sure though.  ...anyone else?  Ideas?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 04, 2011, 07:24:47 pm
Heritage?
Though I agree, knowledge is probably a good part of it. 

And, I think Coyote is pleased with her.  Which isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, knowing Coyote...but it may mean much more excitement for us!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 04, 2011, 07:40:34 pm
I think its about her roots/acknowledging that and knowing what tribe she is from. I think there is something very important about that also links up with the theme of Mercy always feeling the outsider - this book ends up with her knowing who she is and what she is. I think that helps to confirm she is not an outsider/loner anymore.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Sopbasa on March 04, 2011, 09:40:56 pm
I loved Coyote! Not quite sure if he's bad (him and Charles exchanging words and pushing Mercy into the river) or good (pulling her out and visiting her when he "got back") or what I always think neither he's just... Coyote.... unpredictable and all. I suspected that he was her father and he was....  ;D kinda. I love being right in a left handed way.  ;)

Still, I wouldn't want him and Bran plotting scheming working together in the same room. What a scary thought!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 04, 2011, 11:28:51 pm
Somehow I don't see Coyote and Bran getting along.  Coyote is a force for Chaos in the universe... Bran stands for order and control.  They might like each other well enough, but I don't see them being able to see eye-to-eye on a plan of action.  Could you see BRAN supporting the "We need to learn about the river monster.  OH! I KNOW! I'll just throw this conveniently placed Mercy in!" idea?  'Cause I see Coyote getting eaten if he tries springing that with Bran.  Surprised Adam didn't, actually.

If you could get them to work together, they would be splendidly terrifying... I just don't see it happening. 

As for Coyote being good, bad, or just himself: I think perhaps Coyote knows a lot more than he lets on.  But that he is simply himself, mischievous and always intent on stirring things up.  I think he threw Mercy in the river, for instance, to test her as much as to find out about the monster.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Varg on March 05, 2011, 04:41:51 am
The thing about Coyote is that he is not an easy charachter, and having him pleased with you might be marginally safer than having him annoyed with you but either way he is an agent of chaos and in the wake of chaos there will often be danger death and or destruction. He does teach hard lessons and not always with a soft touch.All of which means that having his close attention may be a very exciting thing, in the chinese sense of exciting. At least if PBs Coyote is like the mythological Coyote.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: yasmine on March 05, 2011, 06:14:24 am
Somehow I don't see Coyote and Bran getting along.  Coyote is a force for Chaos in the universe... Bran stands for order and control.  They might like each other well enough, but I don't see them being able to see eye-to-eye on a plan of action.  Could you see BRAN supporting the "We need to learn about the river monster.  OH! I KNOW! I'll just throw this conveniently placed Mercy in!" idea?  'Cause I see Coyote getting eaten if he tries springing that with Bran.  Surprised Adam didn't, actually.

If you could get them to work together, they would be splendidly terrifying... I just don't see it happening. 

As for Coyote being good, bad, or just himself: I think perhaps Coyote knows a lot more than he lets on.  But that he is simply himself, mischievous and always intent on stirring things up.  I think he threw Mercy in the river, for instance, to test her as much as to find out about the monster.

Yeee gads!!!  :o Coyote and Bran plotting... I'd have to wonder what continet they were planning to take over cause face it... a government is easy picking for the pair... :P
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 05, 2011, 02:11:49 pm
When reading the invite that Mercy gave to Coyote to stop by anytime, he seemed pretty surprised.  Do you think that it was because he is surprised that Mercy accepts him or that someone actually wanted him around?  I kind of got the impression that not many people appreciate his "teaching" methods so not many people actually do want him.  He has had to create different people in order to feel accepted.  Maybe he will be nicer to Mercy since she does accept him for being Coyote?  Just a thought.  But I am looking foward to the trouble that Mercy and Coyote could possible get into together especially since they are both good at trouble finding them.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 05, 2011, 02:21:37 pm
I kind of wonder if, given Mercy's habit of getting into and out of trouble herself - and the fact that she is (sort of) Coyote's daughter... Coyote doesn't see her as a protege and collaborator in potential future exploits.  Especially considering that she performed admirably in this case.

Of course, Coyote is likely to test his protege to destruction, but destruction would be likely to arrive even earlier to someone he didn't approve of, because he does have an interest in her survival. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Varg on March 05, 2011, 02:23:01 pm
marci8300 I like this concept of being good at trouble finding you. LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2011, 12:03:20 am
I was just re-reading, and was struck where Mercy comments on the river monster being able to call her, but "she couldn't make me drown my own children -- and Jesse, thank goodness, was a hundred miles away."  So she thinks of Jesse as hers.  How sweet is that?

Also, the bit where she's knee deep in the river, waiting to be attacked, I'm thinking that the word really wanted when speaking of the other animal - gods? - people like Coyote, should be "fatalism" rather than "fatality"; acceptance of the likelihood of death, rather than being dead, or the cause of death, eh?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 06, 2011, 10:09:56 am
Ok.  I am rereading the book again and haven't seem this portion discussed yet.  Does anyone have any idea what Mercy's "vision quest" meant?  I'm kind of drawing a blank.  The only thing that I could come up with is possibly that was how Coyote found out that she was alive and that's why he came and found her?  But what was chasing her in the forest?  Any insight?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Pfefferminztee on March 06, 2011, 10:36:49 am
I think that is when he first knew that his avatar/persona had fathered a child.
In her vision quest Mercy was subconsciously drawn to her father - the Coyote - who's fatherhood was symbolized by this huge blue trailer (awesome idea! :D). He - unaware of her existence - asked who she was and she answered with 'A coyote' and I think that is when Coyote understood. Afterwards, he wanted to stay in touch with her, but if I remember correctly, Charles sent him away.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Rob on March 06, 2011, 11:40:27 am
I think Coyote knew that Mercy was his daughter....but that he wanted to know how she thought of herself....who/what she identified herself as.  I think he was proud and interested that she identified herself as coyote.  Only Charles figured Coyote would bring Mercy even more trouble, so he sent Coyote packing (an impressive feat considering who Coyote is).



What I wonder is......did Charles know that Coyote (via avatar) is Mercy's father??  If he thought it would be better for Mercy, I could see him keeping the information to himself.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on March 06, 2011, 11:49:18 am
I think Coyote knew that Mercy was his daughter....but that he wanted to know how she thought of herself....who/what she identified herself as.  I think he was proud and interested that she identified herself as coyote.  Only Charles figured Coyote would bring Mercy even more trouble, so he sent Coyote packing (an impressive feat considering who Coyote is).

That's exactly what I thought, Rob.  As for Charles knowing, I don't know, either, but I do wonder...
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 06, 2011, 12:40:25 pm
Maybe its part of belonging/identity. Its a major theme in this book :D - acknowledging who she is and what she seems to be important and I think its close to the true naming thing? Another factor is that whilst Mercy always thought she was an outsider with Bran's pack/her mother - I Charles and Bran saw her as theirs and part of their pack, that touches on that conversation  where Adam hints that it was the Walkers' loss that they didn't want anything to do with Mercy.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DarlingWolfEyes on March 06, 2011, 12:43:00 pm
If nothing else, I believe that that comment made people realize that Daryll at least respects Mercy's opinion especially when it comes to Adams health.

About Adam's health also - any time Mercy's injured or in danger, it has a big effect on Adam, and a knock-on effect on the whole pack. And if Mercy died, who knows whether Adam would survive it or not? I think that most of the pack accept that it's best to keep Mercy safe if only for Adam's wellbeing.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 06, 2011, 01:06:08 pm
I can see what you guys are saying and that makes more sense now.  Thank you.

I also thought I would add that someone brought up a while ago the "something special" that Mercy brought back with her.  Could that possible be knowledge?  She didn't have the knowledge that she was the only walker or "avatar" as they call themselves so if she has questions, she could possible contact them in the future?  Also she did have a continued relationship with Coyote so that could also be what she brought back with her.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Varg on March 06, 2011, 01:11:39 pm
In a way what she brought back with her is roots and origins and the knowledge of who her ancestors was, a place in the scheme of things as it were.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 06, 2011, 01:22:23 pm
About Adam's health also - any time Mercy's injured or in danger, it has a big effect on Adam, and a knock-on effect on the whole pack. And if Mercy died, who knows whether Adam would survive it or not? I think that most of the pack accept that it's best to keep Mercy safe if only for Adam's wellbeing.
In one of the books, and I don't know which so I ask aid of you scroungers who are good with this, Adam admits that he would NOT survive the death of Mercy... I think.  On the other hand... it could have been Charles talking about Anna.   :-\   this could be totally my confusion. 

I don't know, but I bet any of the pack who are mated might worry about it either way, and understand the danger.  It's clear that even if they resent having the Coyote-woman in the pack, they probably understand the depth of loss that any mated wolf would feel if they lose their mate and so they might worry for the sake of their Alpha, and for the sake of the whole pack.  After all, it's been made clear that the Alpha, and especially an Alpha of Adam's strength, can take down the whole pack if he goes off the deep end. 

Also, they might even further resent her at the same time, because Mercy winds up in such crazy situations so often, and so endangers the whole pack, even though she doesn't do it on purpose. 

And... I wonder if Bran's clear demonstration of his value of Mercy at their wedding might make them consider how important it may be to welcome her as much as possible into the pack.  (though, if the wolf's instinct is in the forefront, the wolf may not care about Bran's opinion.)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 06, 2011, 02:49:32 pm
I think that is when he first knew that his avatar/persona had fathered a child.
In her vision quest Mercy was subconsciously drawn to her father - the Coyote - who's fatherhood was symbolized by this huge blue trailer (awesome idea! :D). He - unaware of her existence - asked who she was and she answered with 'A coyote' and I think that is when Coyote understood. Afterwards, he wanted to stay in touch with her, but if I remember correctly, Charles sent him away.

A couple of notes about how my understanding of this matched/differed, Pfeff.
It's not a trailer; a "Laz-e-Boy" is a chair that reclines, and may rock.

I am intrigued by your recognizing that this was his first hint that Mercy existed; that somehow hadn't occurred to me.  Whether Charles sent him off with a flea in his ear at that time, I don't know; again, it didn't occur to me.

I'd tend to agree for the most part with Rob's ideas there.

The ideas about the pack wanting (now that the real power hungry one is gone & the Mercy-haters have had some...discipline) Mercy safe to keep Adam stable is a good point; I don't get the impression that Darryl (whichever spelling we use! ;) ) really wants to be an alpha; assuming they didn't all go into suicidal funks/go brainless wolf when he either died or sank into his grief, it's entirely likely that Bran would need to send Charles & Anna to stabilize whoever is left and prepare them to get a new Alpha.  Hopefully, we'll never know.

What "precious" thing Mercy brought back with her... I think there were several immaterial things, to be honest.  The knowledge that she's unique in being a half-Anglo Walker; that her father did love her mother almost as wildly as Adam loves her; that Coyote & his sisters approve of her; that she doesn't have to worry any more about her father's family having rejected her; he literally didn't have a normal family that could have accepted her.  Coyote's love... her new stronger conviction that she's Blackfeet, even though one of Coyote's sisters, the one Mercy thinks of as "Shoshone Woman" said "I think she looks like me."

I'm also interested in your pointing out Bran's interest in Mercy's well being to EVERYONE at the wedding; it may help with inter-pack power struggles - there will be other new pack members eventually - but with the fae who were there, including Edythe & Zee, and the mundane such as Tony, and Margi & Curt.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on March 06, 2011, 03:57:22 pm
Possibly even more frightening than Bran and Coyote plotting together; Edythe and Coyote plotting together.  I have the feeling that Edythe likes trouble nearly as much as Coyote does.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 06, 2011, 04:27:26 pm
Oh, no.  That's too horrible to consider, almost!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 06, 2011, 07:16:29 pm
Oh my.  Edyth and Coyote together.....they could possible cause the end of the world!   LOL 
While reading through the story a second time, I decided to look through some of the Native American stories to see if I could find a story similar to the ones in this book.  I did find one if anyone is interested, here is a link:
http://www.wellpinit.wednet.edu/monster2
I do have to say this, however, I would really be intrigued to read a short story about how Coyote found out about Mercy (and if it was through the vision quest that he found out) up until the conversation Charles and Coyote had. 
I don't think that Mercy really realizes how much an impact that she has on people.  She has so many people (vampires, werewolves, fae and even humans) that would all help her and stick by her.  One of the things that I love about Mercy is that she is a good person with excellent morals.  Like Ben said in Iron Kissed, "Mercy wouldn't know how to betray anyone she cares about even if she wanted to" or something along those lines.  Just thought I would add that.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: caerali on March 08, 2011, 03:50:02 am
Anyone else notice that Leah was specifictly not mentioned at the wedding?  Mercy had made such a point about metioning how much Leah disliked her.  I can under stand Asil, Sage, etc.  I get the impression Sage came to Aspen Creek in the recent past (well after Mercy had been gone).  And even though Asil may have arrived around the same time as her departure -- it's been mentioned more then once that he doesn't leave Aspen Creek (twice in Cry Wolf).

Charles of course was there, as was Anna.  Though Anna was surely filled in by Charles of some of Mercy's antics as a child.  Anna probably instantly liked her (as do we all!)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 08, 2011, 06:34:08 am
Oh, I'm very sure Leah wouldn't have gone to Mercy's wedding, especially since both of Bran's sons were going and there are major jealousies there.  It didn't mention any other names but Charles and Anna either, but I think Patty wouldn't get down to listing names that would drastically pull the focus away from the bride! 

It's Mercy's wedding, and Mercy's book after all!  Too much distraction would be like having a guest show up at a wedding in a gown that outshines the bridal gown!

Patty has said she doesn't want to mingle the two series' very much, so this is pretty natural I'd say.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Mrs Stroud on March 08, 2011, 07:04:03 am
I absolutely love this book!!!

So I did something incredible stupid I ordered this book with some other books that were not released yet. So i didnt get my copy yet.   :-'  :-[

I did borrow it from a friend and completed reading it just last night.

Coyote as Mercys "Father" is so cool and completely agree that he is a great character.

One of my fellow book people scared me and said she thought this was the last one of the series. 

Does anyone know how many more Mercy books there will be? 

When are Adam and Mercy going to discuss having their own children?  That is going to be so awesome.

Also I think I skip when I read ....so questions   
When the heck did Gabriel become their next door neighbor?
Where does Samuel live? 
Does Samuel finally get his wish and he is able to have children now because he hooked up with the fae lady?   
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 08, 2011, 09:59:51 am
Patty said last night that she has contracted for 8 books starring Mercy & one more as yet undefined one that may be Sam & Ari's story...or someone else.  She says that as long as she's enjoying writing them & we're buying them, she'll probably continue beyond that, but the schedule on them may be stretched out longer since she does have other books she wants to write about some of her other worlds, other characters.

There is the possibility in the future of a short story collection.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 08, 2011, 12:32:02 pm
Patti do you mean 9? I thought it was 2 more Mercy books including the 7 books already contracted and one Mercyverse? This was via Bitten By Books Q&A session. But yay for more books! :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 08, 2011, 12:44:36 pm
Total of 9 books, but one of those to be determined, possibly Samuel's story, possibly something else.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: skipaliforus on March 08, 2011, 01:59:10 pm
I'm not sure if this was intended or was an oversight, but on page 274 it is stated that there are only 2 female wolves in Adam's pack. So did Mary Jo leave shortly after Silver Borne or what?

Any insight would be welcome.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: KatawaGrey on March 08, 2011, 02:08:39 pm
You know, I caught that too when I first read it, but I thought I had misread it and Patty had meant two others besides Auriele.  It would be interesting if Mary Jo had to leave after that whole Mercy's-house-burning-down thing.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 08, 2011, 02:10:59 pm
THis was addressed elsewhere, am looking for it now, but it was a slip of the finger, the 2 being next to the 3 on the keyboard.  They're all still there.  (sorry if I'm butting in all you admin types!)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: ElefiNecol on March 08, 2011, 02:12:55 pm
It's in the Mary Jo thread here: http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=5585.30
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 08, 2011, 03:36:06 pm
Just heard back from Anne Sowards and its def a total of 9 Mercy books - 2 more after book 7 and one Mercyverse which could be Sam/another A&O or new character.  So in all 10 books set in this universe not counting the novellas/short stories!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 08, 2011, 05:35:00 pm
10 total in this universe?  Does that include the Alpha and Omega series in that number? 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 08, 2011, 05:56:04 pm
Nope its a total of 9 Mercy books, the 10th one will be a stand along/Mercyverse which could be a Sam book or someone new or even A&O. A&O books are separate but adding them altogether that would make it a total of 12 not counting the novella :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 08, 2011, 07:07:39 pm
Thank you for clearing that up!  HURRAY!!  Now we all just need to mentally send Patty a bunch of thoughts so she can write them quicker....lol
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: ArtAngel on March 08, 2011, 07:52:06 pm
Woohoo! That was an awesome story! I think I like RM better than I liked SB, but I'll need a reread to decide for sure. So many interesting new characters! I was also really happy to learn more about Mercy's background, Coyote is a fascinating character.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: nottled on March 09, 2011, 11:19:51 am
As usual, it was AWESOME!  bOuNcY

My only real gripe is that they're never long enough.  :-'  I never like coming to the end of a Mercy story. So much so that I start to panic when I see there's only a few pages left.  LOL Especially as we're going to have to wait a how long for the next one?  :-'

I do appreciate the honeymoon and the need for them to get away but I would have like to have seen more of the regulars. The river monster seemed like an unpleasant side character that I could have done without. It could have just been the Otter Kin and the diversion would have served the same purpose. The scale of the river monster physically and the dead children kind of messed with my sense of intimacy. Not sure if that makes sense.  :-\

I loved the whole scene at Wal-mart.  LOL The bloody check out killed me.

I also hope we get to see more of Coyote and that wasn't a one off thing.

I gotta re-read. ;D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: marci8300 on March 09, 2011, 12:07:49 pm
Nottled, I think the reason that the River Monster was in the story was to give Patty a reason to bring Coyote into the story.  From my understanding, and I could be very wrong, but Coyote showed up in that place so he could help stop the River Devil.  Wasn't that was he said to Mercy before he pushed her in the lake and why he Joe did the protection dance?  And that he was called by the Great Spirit to stop this thing?  I think that if it was just the otterkin then Coyote would remain hidden like he has for all of Mercy's life.  I agree that the children being eaten did not hold the romance element I would expect on my honeymoon, but you have to remember that Adam is a werewolf and Mercy was raised by them.  Worry about the here and now type of thing? 

If I remember right, Patty has indicated that the next Mercy story is going to deal with vampires, so possible we will see more Coyote.  I can especially see him want to help Mercy out if it's a vampire that he doesn't really like.  We can only cross our fingers!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: nottled on March 09, 2011, 12:59:01 pm
I can see your point Marci.  :) I think she would have had to make the Otterkin more of a threat to necessitate all the powerful help but I think it could have been done. It wasn't and I still love the story but I am exercising my right to niggle.  :-whistle

Not sure I agree about the being/being raised by werewolves making it easier to deal with having two dead kids on your conscience. Of course Mercy had no choice but I don't think that would have made her feel better. I think she was probably just in shock from the chaos and it will come back to get her in the quiet times in her life. To me, (highlighted that so that others will understand that this is MY personal feeling) that would have been worse than the rape.  :-\ Then again, I'm a Mama.  :)


Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 09, 2011, 01:08:48 pm
Well, to me, this is like many fictional (and probably real life...) scenarios where some specific person or people are held out with the "I'll kill this one/these XX people if you don't do what I say so I can kill/injure XX times 10, 100, 1,000,000 people" option.  The good of the many versus the good of the few, even if the few are YOUR few.

Mercy made the horrible, soul destroying but (coldly) correct choice to sacrifice the few for the salvation of the many.  She will add them to the trucker who was blamed for the deaths caused by the demon-vampire, as weighing on her conscious, and whose families will (eventually) need to be informed of what happened to them.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: nottled on March 09, 2011, 01:38:34 pm
One more thing to add to her tiny coyote shoulders.  9) Poor Mercy.  :-LOVE
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Snoopy on March 10, 2011, 02:19:53 am
Got my copy in the mail one day before my birthday. What an awesome present!! :-)

I've only read through chapter three, but I just have to say I LOVED the wedding-chapter!! Had me tearing up that did... *happy sigh* And now we really know where Mercy gets her "don't get mad, get even" philosophy.  LOL

Now I'm looking forward to what's going to happen on the honeymoon, so I haven't spoilered myself (too much) by reading earlier posts of this thread.

And I have to say, I really like the UK version of the cover, too. The US cover is stunningly beautiful, of course, and the best version by far, but this UK cover is a big improvement over the past UK covers, IMO.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: chemgirl on March 12, 2011, 07:28:05 pm
I read River Marked in about two days.  I loved it and can't wait for the next book.  My thoughts on the end when Jim Alvin says " I think you are taking something precious home with you from this trip," are two fold.  It could be like many think and be the knowledge of herself  which is what I thought when I read it; or it could be that she is pregnant.  This last idea is just a thought i had when reading the posts.  I mean with all that was going on in the past two books she could have messed up her birth control. I mean she was kidnapped for a whole month.  It was just a thought but I also really do believe that is could just be knowledge.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: CarolKat on March 12, 2011, 07:37:45 pm
A very interesting thought there, but Mercy has been back for almost 6 months at this point. So unless she got careless on purpose which I doubt, I do not think there will be a pregnancy this soon. In spite of her and Adam acting like rabbits.  ;D
I think the knowledge of Coyote and her heritage is what he meant.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: katy on March 12, 2011, 07:38:05 pm
That she might be pregnant was my first thought, too, but then there's the issue of all the x-rays and good drugs -- so probably better if she isn't.  Knowledge of her heritage, even stronger bonds with Adam, connections to some other walkers -- all good things for her.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 12, 2011, 07:42:36 pm
You know, I can't believe I didn't think about that chemgirl, and CarolKat and katy both have good reasons for why it wouldn't be that... except,  >D you don't suppose the old trickster decided a grandbaby would be fun to have around and meddled! 

hehe, ok, ok, probably not... but the title of the category this thread is in IS called spoilers AND "speculation" right?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: CarolKat on March 12, 2011, 08:00:19 pm
Another reason I don't think it would be a pregnancy is that it could mean the end of the series.  I don't see Adam putting up with all the danger Mercy gets in if his unborn child could be hurt. Although it would make for an interesting story line. If Mercy didn't know she was pregnant and then miscarried. But I don't want Adam to go through another miscarriage or for Mercy to experience one.  :(
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 12, 2011, 08:16:16 pm
I entirely doubt pregnancy with the 2 more books due in the series.
My belief still runs to the settling of her paternal heritage as the most precious gift she's gotten, along with meeting more walkers/avatars with whom she can discuss her gifts and learn about them.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on March 13, 2011, 02:40:54 pm
I was chatting with Elle about this - and that briefly passed my mind but I doubt it too. I do think its about her roots and her identity. This book really delved into that.

I think a baby/children question will be covered in the series but I don't see it anytime soon and we have currently 3 books contracted and maybe more so there is enough time for that to be explored :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 13, 2011, 03:06:09 pm
I also don't think that a baby is likely at this point.  I think that given the questions that have been raised throughout the series about whether Mercy would be likely to carry a werewolf baby to term, a baby is likely to come about at some point.  But I can't see the kinds of adventures that Mercy and Adam get into continuing once there is a baby in the equation.  Perhaps when the child gets older - Jesse's age or so - but babies and small children make their parents cautious (and if they don't, shame on their parents!  but I think Mercy and Adam would be good parents). 

Adam gets it easy - he protects Mercy, and an unborn child automatically stay safe.  But Mercy might risk the child to save Adam, so I'd guess that with a baby on the way, he'd be likely to do everything in his power to stay home and take up knitting, if you will. 

BUT at the moment - with Marsillia still in the area and upset with Mercy, questionable fae motives, and other recent chaos in their lives, I'm guessing that neither Adam or Mercy is taking chances, despite their "rabbit-like behavior".  It's still possible, yes...

But my guess is knowledge of her heritage and her father is the thing she's gained.  From a storyline perspective, I don't think it makes sense to bring a baby into the equation at this point. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on March 13, 2011, 05:41:41 pm
I agree, Kyria.  On all fronts.  :)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Galbalicious on March 13, 2011, 06:39:49 pm
Adored this book. Otters in the roof of Wal-Mart are you kidding =D I adored that scene lol.

Great bit when all the spirit warriors got together.

Hearing Coyote talk about the Great Spirit was enlightening =)

Mercy's letter to Adam was touching =3
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Cerulean on March 18, 2011, 07:04:10 pm
I absolutely loved this book! I loved that we got to see the wedding and some really fun and loving (and some smexy implied) scenes between Mercy & Adam. I love all the action, but sometimes in really really action-packed books I miss some sweet moments, or downtime moments. Patty perfectly mingled both these tender moments and the heart-pounding ones.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: mtomni on March 20, 2011, 07:18:13 am
I opened the Sunday papers this morning and found "River Marked" number 3 on the best sellers list.  Way to go Patty and congrats!!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Jax on March 20, 2011, 08:58:16 am
I love that Mercy was the last one to know it was her wedding. Cerulean, I completely agree with how well Patty mixes is the sweet everyday moments with the craziness that makes the books so fun.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: mystify on March 21, 2011, 05:12:47 pm
Fantastic book!  I'm always so sad when I am finished reading the new Mercy book for the first time. LOL - it's never enough to get my fix. :) 

I actually started re-reading the whole series after I finished River Marked and one thing I love about this book (and the series in general) is that the characters grow and develop. I detest when a series prolongs a love triangle over 4 or 5 books (or 9 or 10) and the story kind of stops because of it.  I love that Mercy made a choice and they moved forward. Now they are married and hopefully will have many more adventures together, while working through the problems.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 21, 2011, 05:37:35 pm
I agree! Love triangles can be fun to read about, but eventually it gets to a point where a choice needs to be made... and it's annoying as heck when nobody makes a choice. 
Patty does a good job of balancing the everyday with the insane, and letting her characters grow, and that makes her stories believable - even in worlds where the unbelievable is possible!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 21, 2011, 06:18:56 pm
I can't read that kind of comment ("love triangles are only useful over a short period, get over them!")  without thinking of "Lady Knight" by Tamora Pierce, the scene where Kel finds the two guys in the fist fight, and the girl they're fighting over standing there all tickled at it.  Kel lays down the law, "choose one and be done or tell both that you can't choose and send them both away," more or less.
Patty's characters don't need someone outside to tell them that.  But, if any of them did, there are characters in there who can help them.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 21, 2011, 07:04:46 pm
Technically Mercy did have to be told how serious Adam was about her. But she didn't need to be told to choose, once she saw the stakes.
 
not that having multiple guys fighting over (I don't mean this literally... the only time I condone men fighting over a woman is if one is abusing her and the other is beating the tar out of him for it) you isn't really flattering and fun (even I once had three competing for my attention!)  but it's rude to string them along. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Galbalicious on March 22, 2011, 05:52:21 am
I agree that something needed to happen. If you want endless love triangles there's always the archie comics. I'd always held a little hope for Stefan though XD especially after book 3
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Elle on March 22, 2011, 06:58:05 am
Let's not get too off track the River Marked discussion. If you'd like to talk about triangles the Adam VS. Sam VS. Stefan (http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3320.0) thread would be best.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Galbalicious on March 22, 2011, 08:25:18 am
So... Otterkin: Cool and edgy? ridiculous and unnecessary? Scary? (Who else is never swimming in a river at night again ^^)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: highcountryrider on March 22, 2011, 08:29:43 am
Cool, huh? (Featured on Audible's site.)

(http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af26/highcountryrider/mercy.jpg)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on March 25, 2011, 11:37:10 am
Water snakes are enough to scare me away from most bodies of freshwater, except for the occasional plunge into the lake, but if I ever see otters stare at me I am outta there.  LOL 
I kind of liked the addition of the otterkin; it was interesting to see some of the minor fae.  Even if they were too stupid to live.   ;D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 26, 2011, 06:22:35 am
Ok, I did some searches to see if this has been discussed, feel free to redirect if it has been. 

What do you all make of Coyote's statement that Joe Old Coyote, in his incarnation which fathered Mercy, was neither Blackfoot nor Blackfeet.  ...so, what tribe was he?  or, is he any specific tribe?  does it matter which? 

Joe told Margie that he was from Browning, not what tribe he was... Margie decided he must be Blackfeet, or else Mercy concluded so... I found this convo very interesting and wondered what everyone else thought.  Joe was Joe while he walked the earth, but Coyote was along for the ride too.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Cerulean on March 26, 2011, 09:25:39 am
Coyote's sisters tell Mercy that Mercy and *his other descendants* keep him in this world. Do you think we may meet up with any of these other decendents? If they're as direct a descendants as Mercy, they should be able to shift. Or if their parents were both Native American. But maybe they're further back - it definitely sounded like Joe Old Coyote was his last avatar.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: katy on March 26, 2011, 09:32:53 am
Ok, I did some searches to see if this has been discussed, feel free to redirect if it has been. 

What do you all make of Coyote's statement that Joe Old Coyote, in his incarnation which fathered Mercy, was neither Blackfoot nor Blackfeet.  ...so, what tribe was he?  or, is he any specific tribe?  does it matter which? 

Joe told Margie that he was from Browning, not what tribe he was... Margie decided he must be Blackfeet, or else Mercy concluded so... I found this convo very interesting and wondered what everyone else thought.  Joe was Joe while he walked the earth, but Coyote was along for the ride too.

I found this interesting, too, along with his comment that he knew where Joe's genetic material came from, and it must have been watching Star Wars that gave him the hero impulse.  I wonder where Joe's genetic material did come from? 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 26, 2011, 01:49:37 pm
I got the impression that Coyote found it mildly amusing that Mercy found it necessary to label herself as this tribe or that.  Coyote himself doesn't belong to any particular tribe, so I don't think Joe probably saw himself as belonging to a particular tribe, either, although his genetic material may have been from one particular tribe. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Spryte on March 26, 2011, 08:30:27 pm
I got the impression that Joe didn't really realize he was Coyote...
So maybe he did think of himself as Blackfoot/feet?
And, for reals, can anyone tell me whether it is -foot or -feet?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: SilverRiver on March 26, 2011, 08:50:56 pm
Hi, everyone! I'm shiny brand-new to the forums, but not to the series ;) River Marked finally jolted me into joining.

As for Blackfoot or Blackfeet, didn't Jim Alvin state she was Blackfeet?: "Browning, Montana, makes him Blackfeet," Jim told me kindly. "Piegan. The Blood and the Siksika are Blackfoot."

But Mercy works out her dad's name while sitting with Coyote. Joe Old Coyote is the sum of Old Man + Coyote + "Just another" Joe: "the Blackfeet tell stories about the Old Man. He's their trickster. It's the Crow and the Lakota in that part of the country that tell Coyote stories. For the Blackfeet, the Old Man plays the part of Coyote."

I'd say she's Blackfeet, although I think Coyote mentions Joe was from Browning because he (Joe) had decided to be from Browning. Or maybe Coyote decided it for him. Confusing much? :P
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Spryte on March 26, 2011, 09:04:21 pm
Indeed. But helpful in anycase.
And welcome, btw.  :)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: SilverRiver on March 26, 2011, 09:43:59 pm
thanks :) I think I'll really enjoy my stay!

I loved River Marked as much as any other fan, but it didn't strike me as Iron Kissed or Silver Borne did. I think Patty Briggs might have gotten a little lost describing all the new characters in such detail (including all the Animals' garb down to every button) that she left Mercy and Adam a little bare. It's probably just me, but I'd rather have heard about her wedding look and what they talked about during their journey to the campsite instead of how the marble in the men's bathroom looked as opposed to the women's.

And, um, didn't anybody get a bad feeling after two or three times of Mercy mentioning how people stared at them when Adam looked like he'd jumped off the catwalk and she "just looked like her"? Mercy never seemed to care she wasn't beautiful. She knows her looks don't define her, and she's a rocking mate; but will him being prettier than she is be an issue in the future? She is territorial and protective, and no matter if Adam wouldn't dream of looking at another woman, women would surely look at him. And Mercy would take a tire iron to their heads. Including his ex-wife, if she dares make an appearance...that would be fun. ;D

Heavy description on Adam got me thinking again about the age issue. Mercy is in her early thirties but seems to age naturally. Will her ties to Coyote keep her as young-looking as Coyote himself? Or will she live a human lifespan?

phew. Sorry about all that!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 26, 2011, 09:51:05 pm
Ah, we all get excited and babble.
The age issue has got a couple of threads of its own, if you want to look at them.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 27, 2011, 07:00:34 am
No, what I was saying was that on page 139 of the E-book, though the page can be different on different readers, it's in the conversation where Coyote is talking about Star Wars and Joe's ghost dancing etc.  Mercy asks him to tell her about her father, and she's making the connection between Coyote and Joe.  Coyote tells her, "Wasn't Blackfeet.  Or Blackfoot, either."

That's a pretty clear cut statement.  As a rule, the Native people I've known are pretty clear about wanting to state their background, all of it.  Of course, that's a broad statement, and I've worked with ... I'd say only 12 or so, had a roommate who was Inuit, and she was also very clear about her family, village and connections.  It's an important thing to them.  (and yes, I dislike "them" statements and such broad generalizations, but I'm trying to make my point with respect too, so I hope you'll please excuse me.) 

Think about how when Mercy first met Calvin, Fred, Hank and Jim after she and Adam rescued Benny.  They introduced themselves to her with their tribal affiliations, all of them even Jim and Calvin was Wish-ram and Yakama, so they were very clear about their background.  It's important, and I just think that it's going to cause Mercy some curiosity.

So no, though Mercy has been saying she's Blackfeet, because Joe told Margie he was from Browning, Coyote was clear that it isn't the case.

//edit to add// I think Mercy has a good self-image and has a great sense of herself which allows her to smile at other women's attitude about Adam and his looks.  Plus, she's got that whole mate connection which gives her the truth that he doesn't pay much attention to anyone but her.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on March 27, 2011, 07:31:02 am
I think that the point was pretty much exactly what Kyria said. 

I got the impression that Coyote found it mildly amusing that Mercy found it necessary to label herself as this tribe or that.  Coyote himself doesn't belong to any particular tribe, so I don't think Joe probably saw himself as belonging to a particular tribe, either, although his genetic material may have been from one particular tribe. 

Coyote, whether on his own or in the avatar he chose/created, doesn't belong to any one particular tribe.  I suspect Mercy doesn't, either.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 27, 2011, 01:35:01 pm
I had a thought today that perhaps the "rude" versions of the Coyote stories might hold some clue about the origins of Joe Old Coyote's genetics.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Spryte on March 27, 2011, 01:46:58 pm
Now if only we could figure out what those "rude" versions are...
*feverishly pecks at keyboard in attempt to find coyote related myths with sufficient rudeness*
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Cerulean on March 27, 2011, 04:05:04 pm
The first time I read River Marked, I was slightly put off by Jim's question at the end asking Mercy what tribe she was from - the one to which she answered quickly. Then on the second go-round, I realized that he was essentially asking her if she felt like she'd reconnected with her heritage. I get that feeling because she didn't know which tribe she was from (no matter that in truth she's from every tribe, being Coyote's daughter). Jim asked her at the end of the book and she answered "Blackfeet" so quickly and even defended it when Jim asked if she was sure - but then he says she'll go home with more than what she came with. I'm interpreting this as she at least feels like she's learned more about her heritage and her roots. That's the connection to me.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: paceberly on April 02, 2011, 09:49:41 am
I don't know I'm still not convinced that Mercy is not pregnant. Her ability to have children played a fairly significant role in the series. And I think it would be fun to see her and Adam as newborn parents and what kind of gifts their child would have. As far as the drugs she took goes, Coyote seems to always find a way to do what he wants and we're not talking about a "normal" baby. It might just be my wishful thinking. I'm just saying I wouldn't complain if it ended up going that way.   :D
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DarlingWolfEyes on April 06, 2011, 08:33:42 am
A quick google search pertaining to coyote and his "berries"  LOL yielded this; Coyote and the Monster of Columbia, a story of the Klickitat tribe. I found it in Handbook of Native American Mythology by Dawn Elaine Bastian and Judy K. Mitchell. It's available on google books, for anyone who's interested. They are the western neighbours of the Yakama tribe in River Marked. However, I personally am not convinced that this really says anything about Mercy's tribe or genetic makeup. There are tons of other Coyote stories from all over America, and Mercy just happened to be at the site of this one.

When Mercy meets Coyote's sisters, and is speaking to one whose tribe she is, at first, unable to place, she goes on to say...

Quote
I decided she was Hopi, and as I did so, her features changed just a little until there was no possibility of her being anything else.

What this might suggest, other than that reality is subjective, I have no idea.

It's this passage that makes me believe that, genetically at least, she must be descended from a particular tribe--it just doesn't seem to matter to Coyote or his sisters. Coyote is talking here about Mercy's heroic tendencies:

Quote
“Maybe that’s where you get it. I always assumed it was just too much Star Wars, but maybe it was genetic.” After a moment’s thought, he shook his head. “No. I know where his genes came from. I think it must have been Star Wars.”

So Coyote knows, but doesn't feel it's important to tell her. Additionally, it doesn't sound like Joe's genetic source was anything like him or Mercy.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Avarel on April 06, 2011, 08:51:09 pm
I haven't gotten on to give my 2 cents worth yet.

I loved the book! (I always do)

I went to the Portland OR signing and Patty explained the naughty version of the berries.  :-[

Edit: It is really more potty humor than naughty.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 06, 2011, 08:58:29 pm
So, "rude" but not... sexually naughty.  Not too much of a surprise.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Avarel on April 06, 2011, 09:00:53 pm
There are two versions of every story.
The version that the men tell the women and children.
The version the men tell each other when they sit around the fire and have man talk.

Think something that elementary and middle school boys would enjoy.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DarlingWolfEyes on April 07, 2011, 07:20:09 am
Wasn't that story censored for a modern audience though? As opposed to Native American men censoring it for the sake of the women?

Oh, and you forgot the versions that women share with each other. You make it sound like all stories come from the mouths of men.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on April 07, 2011, 12:05:52 pm
Totally agree with DarlingWolfEyes.  According to a Navajo woman I worked with, it wasn't so much censorship.... a story might be told amongst men a certain way, and amongst women another way, but generally, if a woman overheard the 'men's version' she pretended not to hear it, even if it was completely clear that she did.  She acted as if she didn't hear it, and the men acted the same way.  Then of course, she would go and tell her friends or female relations, and the story might be shared that way, or else, because most of the stories were told pretty often, everyone already knew both or several versions quite well.   Old time stories were told in however many versions with a little preamble about how the story was told to them, or where some version of a story came from.

Any censorship was only so the Anglo's didn't get all in a fuss about things.  It's not even (for the most part) anything secret... though there are things kept private.  It's just more of a sort of 'time and place' for everything.... and some stories are told at certain times, and generally only for the sharing of family and friend situations.

Not sure that made sense, I'm trying to get it right the way it was expressed to me. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 07, 2011, 01:05:10 pm
The version for the occasion makes sense to me.  In "Pawn of Prophecy", Belgarath tells the full story of the first great war with Torak in the version that is only told... it's either "before A king" or "before THE RIVAN king" one winter holiday, at the farm where the (unknown) Rivan king is being fostered. 
Or, in "Cordelia's Honor", the off planet woman has several moments of puzzlement about the details of sex & childbirth that are told/known among different groups.
One of my favorite moments from that book is when a political rival of her husband, trying to upset her & thus her husband, informs her that "He's bi-sexual, you know."
Now, any proper Vor woman would have been horrified by this and reacted just as he anticipated. 
She, coming from a much, much more sophisticated society, absently corrects him, "was bisexual, now he's monogamous."   A few seconds later, when his reaction of "I pulled the pin, why is Mr. Grenade not going off?" hits, she tells him, "Do you know why Admiral X died?  He tried to get between Aral and me.  Stay out of my way, Z."
(Too bad for him that he didn't listen... >D )

So, to get back more specifically on subject, yeah, the version first told to any child, the more "men and their testosterone poisoning" version(s), the women's versions, the "family" or "Guest" versions... yeah, I can see that.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on April 07, 2011, 05:57:33 pm
Having heard and told context-specific variations on many personal life stories, not to mention the kid-friendly versions of various ghost stories (Brotherling used to have a paralyzing fear of ghosts) as compared to the versions the kids tell each other, or the adult versions - yeah, that totally makes sense. 

Too bad the rude versions aren't a clue, then.  *sigh* There aren't nearly enough (innocent, fun) conspiracies in the world to amuse me...
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Tybaltlovetoby5 on April 28, 2011, 08:53:37 pm
I think that the point was pretty much exactly what Kyria said. 

I got the impression that Coyote found it mildly amusing that Mercy found it necessary to label herself as this tribe or that.  Coyote himself doesn't belong to any particular tribe, so I don't think Joe probably saw himself as belonging to a particular tribe, either, although his genetic material may have been from one particular tribe. 

Coyote, whether on his own or in the avatar he chose/created, doesn't belong to any one particular tribe.  I suspect Mercy doesn't, either.

hey everyone new person here.
I have to agree. Mercy and Coyote doesn't belong to any tribe. Coyote  loves to be criptic.  LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Yidenia on May 04, 2011, 08:13:22 pm
I love the books, but I find it odd that Coyote just branches out to all Native Americans, to be honest. What are coyotes doing with the Inuits, after all? Why would Coyote have an Inuit sister? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I can't claim to know much about Native Americans, but I always had the impression that Native Americans are just grouped by modern society into one whole group when in fact they were originally very distinct from each other. They shared as many similarities as African ethnic groups or Asian ethnic groups, but that didn't mean they associated with each other or felt any sort of kinship back then—in fact, I'm pretty sure there were groups that were at odds all the time. I would expect in this case that Navajos would feel as distinct from Blackfeet as a French person would feel from a Felipino. Just because they shared looks and weren't separated by miles and miles of sea doesn't mean their cultures have anything to do with each other, so why would Coyote encompass so many different tribes? One tribe's Coyote wouldn't be the same as another's. It would make much more sense to me if there were many many different Coyotes, just as there are many many different fae, and Mercy's Coyote just happens to be the Coyote of Blackfoot lore.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on May 04, 2011, 08:22:33 pm
I got the impression that "Coyote" was just a convenient name/persona for a more universal "trickster" deity (like "Old Man").  I don't know many Inuit legends, but my guess is that they probably have a trickster of some sort who fills Coyote's role.  And Coyote would probably appear to one of them as something else. 

Like I said, I haven't looked into the specifics here, but that's my guess.  Or "Inuit Woman" could really be more similar to Tlingit or Haida (I don't know if they have a Coyote, either.  I think Raven may fill that spot there.) but Mercy could simply not be as familiar with the northern tribes. 

As with European culture, I think Native American culture exists as more of a continuum overlain with tribal (national, in Europe) identities.  Very complex and hard to pick apart, whether you're within the system or an outside observer. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Zealith on May 04, 2011, 08:23:38 pm
Ah, but Coyote is the essence of what a coyote is, not necessarily the essance of what a specific group of people thinks the essence of a coyote should be.
Or maybe the Inuit sister is a hold over from when the first groups of native americans came to the United States.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on May 04, 2011, 08:36:40 pm
Also, the animal coyote is found from east coast to west (I think... haven't actually heard of them east of the Plains states) and from at least Mexico possibly as far south as the southern tip of South America to pretty deeply into northern Canada, where, I agree, Raven or maybe Fox would take over the Trickster God role.  Just as most cultures in Africa, regardless of being Swahili, Ivory Coast, Arabic, etc. would have lion gods or architypes, because the creature is there.  Further, just because (at random, I don't know which tribes are close to each other geographically) Navajo and Hopi are not identical, and may raid or war with each other, it doesn't mean they don't talk too.  There are truces, there are escaped prisoners, there are intermarriages, there is trade.  The stories would change -- this has been discussed elsewhere -- from one telling to the next by the same person, depending on what's influencing him or her at the moment, but the essences of "trickster god" would still be there, with the easy acceptance that a person, let alone a god, could be human or animal shaped, just as they pleased.  Christ is Christ, whether you're Catholic, Lutheran, or Mormon, just seen somewhat differently from one group to the next.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Yidenia on May 05, 2011, 06:10:00 am
Sorry, I know I'm probably being difficult XD but I'm not convinced that Europe is a good example to compare the American peoples with. Europe and East Pacific Asia can both trace their cultures and languages to one origin; in Europe it's Roman, which can trace back to Greek, and in East Pacific Asia it's China. Further, in Europe Christianity was a uniting religion that had a single origin; the many factions branched out from that origin because they disagreed with the interpretation, but I think it's safe to say that they all came from the same place. In addition, Europe had a specific political history, where the different countries were really just separated by map borders, and in many cases even language wasn't specific to an area; up till recently most French people didn't even speak French, for example, and in many cases everyone had to learn multiple languages, not just their own. Because of this, Europe didn't really have the kind of national identities they have now—nationalism was brought on only around the 20th century, while before this everyone just kind of lived where their homes were. Most white people have an ancestry that includes many different nationalities—German, British, French, Russian, Italian, Icelandic, when even in Asia, Chinese people trace back only to Chinese ancestors, Japanese to Japanese, Koreans to Koreans, Mongolians to Mongolians—the kind of free interbreeding we see in white people is, I think, a special case specific for Europe, at least in the past. That's why during the age of imperialism, when Europeans just divided the African colonies into arbitrary sections, it was so disastrous because it didn't take into account the native people's cultural impacts, but the Europeans (in addition to just being jerks back then) didn't think this was a huge issue because it was essentially how their own countries were divided themselves.

I don't know if Native Americans ever united their religion the way Europeans did under Christianity—not until the Europeans came, and I don't see how they could even if they associated with their neighbors because America's a pretty large landscape, and considering geographical boundaries, certain sections had to have been isolated from others. Even if they did, that doesn't mean they consider their cultures to be interdependent, just as Europe and India had been linked by trade and I don't think you can get much more different than between Europe and India. Native Americans all have Coyote stories or some Trickster equivalent, and I understand that Coyote in Mercy's story was supposed to just embody the Trickster, but if we look at an age before Christian Europe, Greco-Roman gods also had their equivalents in Egyptian gods. They're hardly separated at all back then—we all know the story of Cleopatra and her Roman lovers. However, when people talk about Greek gods and Roman gods (who were, admittedly, considered the same) they're always distinct from Egyptian gods, despite having blatant similarities. In fact, certain gods were sort of plagiarized from the other culture and vice versa, but the two pantheons remained separate even so, at least to arts and literature. I just feel that Native American cultures would also carry this sort of distinctiveness, and grouping them all together is a result of a European mindset and current political outlines. People in America (like Sarah Palin) think Africa is a country because of this, and a similar mindset is applied to the native Americans because everyone falls back on Europe as a model. Making Coyote encompass all the tribes makes me as a reader group all the Native Americans into a single entity, which seems to me to be too much of a generalization.

Granted, I can see Coyote as an entity that is independent of the people and more the manifestation of the actual coyotes which happen to encompass the American continent and happened to say hello to all the tribes who lived there. It would certainly make sense then that he doesn't consider himself part of any tribe, and has sisters that came from different tribes he'd encountered. Still doesn't really explain the Inuit sister though; even if Inuits had a trickster equivalent, I don't think it's quite fair to use Coyote to represent it. Not that I really minded; the sisters' tribal origins didn't really manifest themselves much in the book, and I'm aware I'm likely being nit-picky or just downright retarded XD
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on May 05, 2011, 07:46:44 am
I disagree quite a bit with a lot of what you say Yinedia.  The old world gods had a lot of parallels from one culture to another, exactly as the new world ones did/do.  Parallels, not exact replication, and yes, Raven filled a lot of the trickster roles in Eskimo and Inuit Cultures, and when an Inuit or Eskimo, Tlingit or Athabaskan, Haida and many others from the far north hear Coyote stories, they are able to relate to them because of those similarities.  Trade goods from the Plains Indians have been found very far north, so I think it's safe to say that the stories of the Plains Peoples are just as likely to have traveled centuries ago.

Those stories are a uniting influence amongst them, we Euro descendants didn't much 'get' the differences in the tribes a century or so ago, but now I fear we aren't seeing all the similarities.  Some tribes did have a lot of enmity between them, but mostly it was a flexible thing between most tribes.  Squabbles and raiding were common, but there were times of trading and such too.   

I'm also not familiar with 'trickster' stories from eastern tribes, but there were (and ARE) actual coyotes (the canid I mean) across the continent, so I wouldn't rule it out.  I viewed Coyote's sisters in this case as being allegorical, meant to show both the differences and the similarities of all the American Native peoples.  Mercy has been searching out her personal roots and history lately, and it seemed natural to me that she be reminded of various tribal histories as well...  just my two coppers.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Cerulean on May 05, 2011, 08:51:48 am
I think you might look less literally, Yidenia. Joseph Campbell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_campbell) was a comparative mythologist who examined thousands of myths all over  the world and found similar themes and patterns. He uses Karl Jung's concept of archetypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archetype), which is that this type of individual is a prototype or essence of something. So for example, we see the Hero (e.g., Luke Skywalker; Belgarion), the Wise Old Man (e.g., Obi-Wan; Belgarath) and The Trickster is another one (e.g., Coyote, Pan). These characters are representations of aspects of ourselves in a way. But they're near universal. So Coyote is a representation of an essential recurring pattern we see in many cultures, no matter where. One of Campbell's most famous books is The Hero with a Thousand Faces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces), a description of the Hero's Journey, which is the heart of many myths, legends, & dreams. In fact, one very famous quote of Campbell's is that "Myths are public dreams; dreams are private myths." Another interesting reference to how certain mythological figures appear to us in dreams :)

BTW, I just saw that "Old Man" is a "humanized aspect of Coyote." according to a video of Campbell (http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?categoryid=128) I just watched on the Joseph Campbell Foundation website. Interesting application to Joe Old Coyote :)

So basically, the different Native American tribes in Coyote's sisters are just some of the relevant cultures in which the archetype of The Trickster (in this case, in the form of Coyote) is found. It's not literal at all.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on May 05, 2011, 09:11:16 am
Sorry, I know I'm probably being difficult XD but I'm not convinced that Europe is a good example to compare the American peoples with.

I didn't mean they were exact parallels!  But rather, that if you look particularly at the "middle" languages (meaning historically.  Modern Europe is not what I'm referring to here, but the local cultures that can be traced back to pre-Christian eras) they exist as a continuum.  Nationality and unified religion were imposed upon tribal and feudal societies.

Native American cultures at some point all came from the same starting point, too... and I would dispute your claim that European cultures all trace back to Greece, anyway.  There were cultures in northern Europe when the Greeks thought they were running the show down in Greece.

Anyway, my point was what Cerulean said about archetypes.  Coyote is simply a convenient way of expressing the Trickster archetype so that he will be familiar to Mercy and the people in the local area.  His sisters may fill a completely different archetype, really, and may be relevant to the different cultures in their own way. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on May 05, 2011, 09:46:49 am
I guess my offering of how lion stories in Africa are more or less universal is irrelevant?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on May 05, 2011, 10:27:20 am
Of course not, Patti!  But I read that one last night and Cerulean's answer just now. 

I agree with Patti!  Listen to her, she's smart!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on May 05, 2011, 10:37:40 am
Aww...  :-LOVE  That means a lot coming from someone as smart, educated, and accomplished as you are, Kyria!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Sopbasa on May 18, 2011, 10:54:48 am
Trickesters are supposed to cross boundries. Whether it is the line between life and death, heavens and earth, or wisdom and stupidity. They give us fire and hope even death. They are the ramdom person walking down the road. They are very rarely put in a permanent place.
 
In What's this? My balls for your dinner? A White River Sioux tale of how Coyote's wife tricks both Iktome the spider (an eastern trickster) and Coyote out of thier dinner. This is a tale in American Indian Myths and  Legends.  selected and edited by Richard Erdoes and Alfonso Ortiz.

In a Creek tale it is Coyote who is responsible for why people are the color they are. He didn't tell the Great Mystery the correct time to take the people out of the oven so they were taken out too soon or late.

World tricksters are a hobby   :-[. Anyway, I think this ability to cross boundries is the greatest gift that Coyote gave to Mercy. Which enables her to have friends like Zee and Stephen.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on May 18, 2011, 11:00:24 am
Interesting note; I was just thinking last night of I book I believe (memory, sigh) is called "Summerland" where "Shadowtails" are people who are half one thing, half another, and thus can cross between worlds naturally.  Mercy - Mercy, she could lose three halves, and still be a shadowtail, methinks.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Sopbasa on May 18, 2011, 11:02:17 am
lol so true
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Cerulean on May 18, 2011, 01:00:31 pm
Neat information, Sopbasa!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Gerd D. on June 15, 2011, 03:16:43 am
Well, only just started the book, loved the wedding!
But you know what it reminded me when we entered the church?
The marriage of Marvel's First Lady, Sue Storm, but that was probably just me. 9)

With Anna cameo, yay!
And Butterflies... I couldn't stop thinking of Cry Wolf when they came up.  LOL
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on June 16, 2011, 05:45:34 pm
I loved the little snapshots of Jesse driving Darryl and Auriele crazy, and vice versa. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Gerd D. on June 18, 2011, 05:16:19 am
Back and with more ill fitted comparisons.  9)

Regarding Mercy's dream sequence about the river devil killing the teacher and her family, anybody here who read Bradyburies short story "The Women" (included in "I sing the body electric")?
I thought there to be a similar feel to these two.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on June 19, 2011, 11:48:16 am
Nope, never have. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Risika on June 21, 2011, 10:50:17 pm
I loved River Marked.

It just reminded me how much i love this series and how i really need to do a re read as soon as i can!

The book for me has this feeling about it.. i can't really describe what it was.. It felt really real and kind of like coming home i guess... I just loved the feeling of this book.

Being able to see Mercy and Adam from their wedding to their honeymoon... to finding trouble.

It was great getting more info about the Walkers. As well as learning about Mercy's dad as well as Coyote( who is awesome Imo)

I loved that this book focused a good amount on Mercy's and Adam's Relationship. Just loved every second of it.
  :-LOVE   

This book at moments brought tears to my eyes, as well as made me laugh.. and even had a few creepy moments..

It was nice seeing the letter from Mercy at the end.. it was nice to read after finishing the Novel.
Title: Is Mercy Pregnant?
Post by: areuarchi on July 28, 2011, 07:00:20 pm
I may just have pregnancy on the brain since my cousin's baby shower is this weekend, but I was rereading River Marked and came across this line:
Quote
“I think you are taking something precious home with you from this trip,” he told me. "
(Jim Alvin speaking to Mercy as she is getting ready to leave the campground.)

Does precious = pregnant?  :o
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: ppbwashu on July 29, 2011, 07:22:49 am
I don't think so.  Our Hostess (as Patti refers to Patricia Briggs) has stated in several forums that Mercy becoming pregnant would essentially end the series, since parenting and Mercy's current lifestyle are sort of mutually exclusive.  It's hard enough to be a good parent without having bad guys chasing/trying to kill you. ;)
Title: Re: Is Mercy Pregnant?
Post by: Sopbasa on August 27, 2011, 11:30:06 am
I may just have pregnancy on the brain since my cousin's baby shower is this weekend, but I was rereading River Marked and came across this line:
Quote
“I think you are taking something precious home with you from this trip,” he told me. "
(Jim Alvin speaking to Mercy as she is getting ready to leave the campground.)

Does precious = pregnant?  :o


I think it could mean that she is taking home her knowledge of her Native American heratige or/and that we will be seeing more of coyote in the future.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Zealith on August 27, 2011, 11:41:25 am
I agree with you Sopbasa. I can't see Mercy having a child anytime soon.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 27, 2011, 02:27:10 pm
The amount of time after that at the end of RM, and the amount of doctor time she had, indicate "no" to pregnancy, I suspect.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 27, 2011, 09:14:35 pm
I just came across this blog post - see the section about "Updated:  Shocking Pictures of Lou Diamond Phillips Holding Water" - with her comment on the otters... LOL
http://thebloggess.com/page/19/
Otterkin!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Varg on August 28, 2011, 05:41:30 am
LOL Nasty otters!
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: sapril on November 04, 2011, 04:06:42 pm
Not sure if this was discussed anywhere, but is Mary Jo not part of Adam's pack anymore?  Because on page 274 (from my kindle) it says this:

Quote
He and his mate, Auriele, had become Jesse’s de facto babysitters when her mother left because female werewolves were few and far between: Adam’s pack only had two.

Honey and Peter helped hook up the RV.  So where did Mary Jo go?
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Has on November 04, 2011, 04:41:14 pm
I think that is a typo and a mistake. Mary-Jo is still with the pack :)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on November 04, 2011, 04:45:48 pm
She might be either simply not invited to the wedding (I wouldn't invite her to mine, if she'd tried to get me murdered...) or she might have not been mentioned at that moment because of the unpleasant associations, or even because she also was sent to Bran for a lesson or two.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on November 04, 2011, 05:01:12 pm
I think I read somewhere (I think earlier in this thread even, maybe) that Patty or Mr. Mike said it was a typo that didn't get caught before publication. 
I just re-read the Mercy series and caught that this time through as well, so I went looking. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on November 04, 2011, 05:32:29 pm
I'm pretty sure you're right, Kyria, but it's amusing to make up explanations too.  I kind of like the idea that Mercy is deliberately leaving Mary Jo out, at least for a while.
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: sapril on November 04, 2011, 05:52:42 pm
Darn, I was hoping for some drama and Mary Jo was forced to leave the pack.   
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on November 04, 2011, 05:53:45 pm
I think I read somewhere (I think earlier in this thread even, maybe) that Patty or Mr. Mike said it was a typo that didn't get caught before publication. 
I just re-read the Mercy series and caught that this time through as well, so I went looking.

Check the thread titled Mary Jo in the Individual Characters forum.   :)
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on November 04, 2011, 08:22:43 pm
I'm pretty sure you're right, Kyria, but it's amusing to make up explanations too.  I kind of like the idea that Mercy is deliberately leaving Mary Jo out, at least for a while.
Yes, but following the blowout in SB, Bran showed Mercy how hard Mary Jo was searching for her... it seems a little petty for Mercy to entirely leave her out of an accounting of pack members.  I mean, I'm sure they're still not exactly best buds (to say the least), and Mercy might deliberately not mention Mary Jo if she's talking to someone else about the pack members, if she thinks it will make a point.  But it doesn't seem Mercy's style to leave Mary Jo out of an internal accounting (which is what the narration is).  That's just lying to herself, and there's no reason for that as far as I can see. 
Title: Re: River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on November 04, 2011, 08:30:45 pm
True.
Might not be deliberate, though.  Just like it wasn't deliberate for Patty.
I'm suddenly reminded of Columbo, and his supposed absent mindedness.
Title: Re: [Mercy #6] River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on February 18, 2012, 08:43:53 pm
A quick giggle for us; I was re-reading "River Marked" last night, and the word parfleche was used.  Today I got it right playing on freerice.com because of that.
Title: Re: [Mercy #6] River Marked Discussion
Post by: Kyria on March 24, 2012, 06:26:48 pm
OMG yes.
Title: Re: [Mercy #6] River Marked Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 12, 2014, 09:25:22 am
http://www.buzzfeed.com/richardhjames/just-an-otter-eating-an-alligator-alive?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social