The Hurog Family

Patricia Briggs' Books => Characters Board => The Weres => Romantic and Non-Romantic Couples & Relationships => Topic started by: Cerulean on August 20, 2007, 02:24:10 pm

Title: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Cerulean on August 20, 2007, 02:24:10 pm
We hear the stories of how Charles' mother and Bran got together and how much they loved each other. We also hear examples of how bitchy Leah is. Given that Bran is the most powerful werewolf, why would he choose someone like Leah? Was he ever in love with her? Was it a marriage/mating of convenience? Or maybe his wolf mated with her? Hmmmm, and if his wolf did bond with her, why in the world would it? Or maybe Leah really isn't that bad and we're just seeing her as Mercy does .... nah, if she was willing to kill Mercy, she can't be all that good. Anyway, I was just thinking ... it's odd how nice Bran can apparently be, but how nasty his mate is. Made me wonder.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on August 20, 2007, 03:33:28 pm
I have also wondered about this ???, but I developed a theory after reading the history in A&O.  After Charles's Mom died Bran was in a sad situation. His mate just died, leaving him devastated with a newborn werewolf to raise.  Being a bit old fashioned he might feel like he would need a mother for his son and he wouldn't have time to really "date" around.  He couldn't choose a human either, since Charles might have trouble controlling himself for a few years at least.   Maybe Leah was already in Bran's pack (maybe she was the only female in the pack) and he felt that she was dominate enough to be a good mother to Charles.  Given Bran's "abilities" I doubt he didn't sense her character was a little on the rough side, but maybe he didn't think she would be so bitter after raising Charles. I can't really rationalize any other reason for him being attached to such a evil wench unless it was just a necessity. Or at least he felt like it was a necessity.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on August 20, 2007, 03:44:01 pm
Oop, here's incentive for me to finish with the chat questions...There were quite a few questions about this, and one answer that Patty gave is that "Sometimes the werewolf makes the choice for the man.". 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on August 20, 2007, 03:46:54 pm
probably lots of reasons he chose her, 'specially the ones you've given.  Bet she's not ordinarily that bad, either, but Mercy brings out the worst in her for various reasons.  I'd bet she resents how effortless it is for Mercy to change shape & control her temper, among other things.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on August 20, 2007, 04:47:55 pm
I definitely think that's a big part of it. So far, we've only seen Leah's reaction to Mercy, not to other weres. So maybe when (And I do believe that when is a better word than if) we see her in the Charles and Anna books, she might be a completely different person. And remember, Mercy's presence seems to not be so good for most werewolves' control
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on August 20, 2007, 07:59:13 pm
I think that patty has said something about Leah causeing trouble in the Anna & charles series in one of the chats?  It made me think that Leah is just kinda mean and bitter.  Somehting about how everyone knows that Bran doesn't love her or was really in love with Charles mother.  Can't quite remember. I'll see if I can find it....
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on August 21, 2007, 08:04:37 am
I think that patty has said something about Leah causing trouble in the Anna & Charles series in one of the chats?  It made me think that Leah is just kinda mean and bitter.  Something about how everyone knows that Bran doesn't love her or was really in love with Charles mother.  Can't quite remember. I'll see if I can find it....

that would be great :) It sounds like the most likely prospect is that his wolf bonded with hers. I'd love to know more about that process. Is it always mutual, or is it one-sided? Is there something specific the wolf looks for?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on August 21, 2007, 03:48:18 pm
This is from the May chat, I didn't look at the others because this was the bit I was thinking about. There may be more about her & Bran.

jenglows -Why is Bran's mate so evil? He seems like a fairly stable guy, but his chic is very mean. what's the deal?
MoNyua- Female werewolves are threatened by Mercy. She can have kids, while they cant
Patty -Bran's mate has a problem, because everyone knows that Bran was really in love with Charles (now dead) mother. It makes her a little unstable.
Patty- MoNyua is right about Leah, as well

jenglows- Why does Bran stay with her? it seems like unstable and werewolf aren't a good combination
Patty -MoNyua, I assume you are talking about Leah? She'll play a big role in the Anna and Charles books
Patty -Bran stays with her because she is his mate. And wolves don't leave their mates.
Patty -Or at least they don't leave their mates lightly. (Patty leaves herself an escape route if she needs it <grin>)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Elle on August 21, 2007, 07:12:16 pm
I'm definitely looking forward to finding out more about Leah. I'm hoping there's some kind of flashback with Bran and Charles' mother. And I do love that Patty has left herself an escape route. :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Collaroy on August 22, 2007, 04:00:07 am
I thought the Bran/Leah thing is pretty intruiging as well. My take on it is that she's only bitchy towards Mercy (as was mentioned in the chat, and maybe there's an explanation for it that we don't know about yet?) and not that bad. I'm having a hard time picturing Bran with a downrigh evil mate- there's bound to be something more.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on August 22, 2007, 09:56:51 am
Oooh, thanks Jenglows!!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on August 22, 2007, 01:11:31 pm
I thought the Bran/Leah thing is pretty intruiging as well. My take on it is that she's only bitchy towards Mercy (as was mentioned in the chat, and maybe there's an explanation for it that we don't know about yet?) and not that bad. I'm having a hard time picturing Bran with a downrigh evil mate- there's bound to be something more.

I agree.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Elle on August 22, 2007, 07:38:30 pm
Her attitude makes me wonder just how old she is...I suspect she was changed quite a while ago. There may be bitterness there initally towards both Sam and Charles that blossomed when Mercy showed up.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Morgaine0000 on August 23, 2007, 12:20:49 am
I wonder if her problem with Mercy is her superficial similarities to Charles' mother.  Her ancestry is partially Native American and she can potentially have children like Charles.  On the other hand, being threatened by Mercy seems pretty irrational.  Bran and Mercy's relationship seems pretty clearly father/daughter like.  And even if it wasn't, I totally don't see Bran trying to steal a woman from Sam.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on August 23, 2007, 11:15:59 am
And Leah's dislike of Mercy seems so strong (trying to kill her) that it's got to be something more than she can have children while Leah (and other female werewolves) can't. There's got to be more to the story than that. I hope we'll see some of that story even though Leah'll be appearing in the Charles/Anna books more than the Mercy series.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on August 23, 2007, 02:23:31 pm
I wonder what happened to make her so bitter? Or is she just like that?  ???I am trying to come up with some scenario, but I am not having much luck.  :(
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Morgaine0000 on August 23, 2007, 05:31:05 pm
Maybe its not really bitterness.  She could just be crazy.  Considering the fact that there were only a few Alphas out of more than a hundred  that Bran was willing to trust a teenager with, I suspect a lot a packs aren't run as well as Bran's or Adam's.  She could have been changed against her will and treated as badly as Anna was but for longer. 

Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on August 23, 2007, 06:18:49 pm
And Leah's dislike of Mercy seems so strong (trying to kill her) that it's got to be something more than she can have children while Leah (and other female werewolves) can't. There's got to be more to the story than that. I hope we'll see some of that story even though Leah'll be appearing in the Charles/Anna books more than the Mercy series.
Maybe its not really bitterness.  She could just be crazy.  Considering the fact that there were only a few Alphas out of more than a hundred  that Bran was willing to trust a teenager with, I suspect a lot a packs aren't run as well as Bran's or Adam's.  She could have been changed against her will and treated as badly as Anna was but for longer. 

For alot of women, not being able to have children is a major thing.  And that is in a day and age when a woman's value is not dependent upon her capabilities as a broodmare.  If Leah's Change was forced, she may be incredibly bitter over her inability to have children and the presence of her mate's children plus the possibility that one of those children could mate with a woman who shares several of her powers but not that one major weakness could be enough to seriously unhinge her.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on August 23, 2007, 07:21:37 pm
I totally agree Jenniwee
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on August 23, 2007, 08:56:06 pm
I also agree.  I'd also point out, if you read mysteries, that there are two books by Dick Francis, from the Mystery thread, that deal to some extent with this obsession.  'Hot Money' has a woman who verbally abuses her husband to the point he nearly kills her with broken glass over his unilateral decision to have a vasectomy before they have a son.  And I don't this moment recall the title of the 2nd book, written much earlier, 'Twice' or 'Double' or something of the sort is one of the two words in the title. 
Fertility is of huge importance to both men and women.  After all, isn't that why Samuel wants Mercy?
If Leah, like Anna was changed unwillingly, before she'd had children that she'd dreamed of, yes, she could be extremely bitter.  Or, if she'd had children, like Samuel, and seen them die before her.  There is no chance for her, even should there be a male Walker.  It wouldn't keep her from miscarrying.
And being in hiding, those thoughts wearing grooves in her brain for lo these many years, there's no chance of therapy to help her get over it.
Which doesn't make it any easier for Mercy.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on August 23, 2007, 09:17:05 pm
  After all, isn't that why Samuel wants Mercy?
I really don't think that's why Samuel wants Mercy, at least not any more.   

But fertility is a big deal, people spends huge amounts of money on trying to get pregnant and often become devestated and very angry when they can't. I worked with a woman who basicaly avoided me during most my second pregnancy because she was having such a hard time with getting pregnant. And she is a Nice person,  I can't imagine how bad it could get with someone who isn't very nice to begin with.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on August 24, 2007, 01:36:13 am
Yup. 
At least your co-worker had the sense to keep away instead of hanging over you & obsessing, driving her battier & you into who knows what.  Leah, at least early, probably would have hovered, is my guess.  By this point, she might have kept a little distance, but stay in the background, staring with bitterness/hatred.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Collaroy on August 24, 2007, 06:44:36 am
I like the fertility idea. I witnessed the same situation Jenglows described- the coworker I share an office with cannot get pregnant and it was heartbreaking to see how sad and envious she looked when another coworker got pregnant. She's a sweetheart so she was never bitchy; but I understand that infertility can be a huge issue and a good explanation for Leah's behaviour towards Mercy.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on August 24, 2007, 09:50:22 am
I still think it's more than the fertility thing. I know that fertility is a huge issue for a lot of women (and men), but Leah's behavior is truly extreme. I'm not sure it's comparable to real life issues. I can see why she'd really dislike and maybe even hate Mercy b/c she could have children where Leah could not, but I can't see her actually trying to kill her because of it. Now if Mercy actually had children and rubbed it in Leah's face, then maybe I could see her trying to kill her. But at remember that Mercy was what, 16? when she left, so Leah must've tried to kill her when she was still an adolescent and nowhere near actually having kids.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on August 24, 2007, 02:08:36 pm
I do think that Leah's not being able to have children is a part of it, but I also think that there is more to the story. It says in MC that occasionally Mercy's mother would visit her at Aspen Springs, and that many of the wolves didn't like that. So maybe Leah and Mercy's mum got in to it at one point. Just throwing that out there.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jackie on August 24, 2007, 02:25:13 pm
This seems to me to be an awful lot of conjecture over what is a character who appears in 1 scene where she never speaks and is mentioned only a handful of times.  Obviously Patty has plans.   I would note that Leah has the potential to be both really good or really bad, but most importantly really interesting.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Morgaine0000 on August 24, 2007, 08:57:33 pm
I agree that she is interesting, and I can't wait to see her in the Charles & Anna  books.  Maybe, Anna's presence will make her nicer.  I also don't think there is any evidence that she has actually tried to kill Mercy.  The guy who helped Mercy put Adam in room 1, thought she might - but Mercy didn't think so. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on August 25, 2007, 09:42:27 am
Oh, thanks, Morgaine! :D  You just gave me a sit up! thought.
Anna's already an omega.  With Charles' money, & the years she's got ahead of her, she could become one H*LL of a therapist!
Imagine what she might do for Leah, given time & access. 

On the down side, it occurs to me that Leah's about the same age as Isabelle.  Maybe the bitterness is an early symptom of the same madness.

And why the heck isn't it afflicting Bran, who could be twice as old?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on August 25, 2007, 12:18:40 pm
I recall Mercy making a comment somewhere about Leah trying to kill her. Maybe it was mentioned the scene where Mercy runs into Leah and Samuel and Leah comes after Mercy. Something like "It wasn't the first time she's tried to kill me" or something like that. I'll have to look again.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Morgaine0000 on August 25, 2007, 06:37:13 pm
I remember the guy that helped her put Adam in room  number one said that she had enemies who would kill her if she could.  And then later, when Leah was chasing her and Sam stopped it, she commented that he had always been her protector but wasn't very specific.  Maybe there is something else that I missed.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: rolange on August 26, 2007, 06:25:49 am
Very interesting insights. Here's my take.

I think Leah hatred for Mercy is extreme. I also think that it's tied to Mercy having some sort of respect and standing with Bran, Charles, and Samuel while not being mated to anyone. Leah gets all of her power from being Bran's mate and along comes Mercy, no mate, an orphaned pup at that, and...she's treated almost as if she's an equal. Everything Leah has to be dominant for, Mercy gets handed (or so she think (or I think, anyway, lol)) Anyway, that's my take on it. I could be way off base.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on August 26, 2007, 11:42:23 am
It's probably a combination of things. But I think you have a good point, rolange. That seems like enough reason for her to hate her to me.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on August 26, 2007, 12:52:39 pm
good point. Leah could be ticked off in part because of what she views as unequal treatment. Hunh.

Here is the part about the Leah possibly trying to kill Mercy bit and the bit where the man who helps get Adam into rm. 1 tells her to be careful.


     " 'Do you know where Bran took the new wolves?' I asked, shutting the back hatch of the van. Carl hadn't asked me about Mac - he didn't have a wolf's nose to tell him what was in the tarp - and I decided that Mac could ride with me for a while longer. Bran could decide what to do with his body.
   'You don't want to go after them Mercy,' Carl was saying. 'To dangerous. Why don't you come home with me. We'll feed you while you wait.'
   'How many wolves are left in town?' I asked. 'Is there anyone who could resist Adam's wolf?'
   That was the downside of being dominant. If you did go moonstruck, you took everyone who was less dominant with you.
   Carl hesitated. 'Adam's pretty weak yet. Bran will be back by dark.'
   Something hit the door, and we both jumped.
   'He took them up to Lover's Canyon,' Carl told me, giving in to the obvious. 'Be careful.'
   'Bran will have control of the new ones,' I told him. 'I'll be alright.'
   'I'm not worried about them. You left enemies behind you girl.'
   I smiled tightly. 'I can't help what I am. If they are my enemies, it was not by my choice.'
  'I know. But they'll still kill you if they can.' " pg. 76

*As you can see, not very specific as to who those enemies are, but they are out there, and even a human knows they would kill her.
Here's the other bit.

   "I didn't think it was Charles stalking me either. It would have been beneath his dignity to frighten me on purpose. Samuel liked playing practical jokes, but the wind doesn't lie, and it told me he was somewhere just ahead.
   I was pretty sure it was Leah. She wouldn't kill me no matter what Carl had implied - not with Bran sure to find out - but she would hurt me if she could because she didn't like me. None of the women in Bran's pack liked me.
  The wind carrying Samuel's scent was coming mostly from the west. The trees on that side were young firs, probably regrowing after a fire that must have happened a decade or so in the past. The firs were tucked together in a close-packed blanket that wouldn't slow me down at all, but a werewolf was a lot bigger than I.
   I scratched my ear with a hind foot and used the movement to get a good look behind me. There was nothing to see, so my stalker was far enough away for me to reach the denser trees. I put my foot down and darted for the trees.
   The wolf behind me howled her hunting song. Instinct took over when a wolf is on the hunt. Had she been thinking, Leah would have never uttered a sound - because she was immediately answered by a chorus of howls. Most of the wolves sounded like they were a mile or so farther into the mountains, but Samuel answered her call from no more than a hundred yards in front of me. I altered my course accordingly and found my way through a thicket of trees and out the other side where Samuel had been traveling...........
   After the space of a deep breath, he turned back to Leah.
     Leah cringed and rolled onto her back." pp78-79

*Later it also says that Bran growled at Leah, and that Mercy "wasn't to be viewed as fair game." pg. 81


OK. I take this to mean that Leah does not have a problem with Mercy being lunch, but unless she got out of control, she wouldn't actually kill her - because Bran would know. But she would hurt Mercy if she thought she could get away with it.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on August 27, 2007, 01:27:59 pm
Thanks Spryte - you're much better at finding text than I am :) I  could've sworn I read something along the lines of "it wouldn't be the first time she's tried to kill me" but I must've made that up!

And great ideas, Rolange!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on August 27, 2007, 01:45:54 pm
I think Leah hatred for Mercy is extreme. I also think that it's tied to Mercy having some sort of respect and standing with Bran, Charles, and Samuel while not being mated to anyone. Leah gets all of her power from being Bran's mate and along comes Mercy, no mate, an orphaned pup at that, and...she's treated almost as if she's an equal. Everything Leah has to be dominant for, Mercy gets handed (or so she think (or I think, anyway, lol))

 I totally agree with this Rolange ;)  Although I think the fertility thing might have something to play into it also but Leah's hated is extreme.  Doesn't she fuss at Bran just for talking to Mercy on the phone?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on August 27, 2007, 04:03:29 pm
Ya.  Its kinda like she sees Mercy as competition...I know thats probably not true, but it kinda seems like shes unstable/jelouse/mean enough to belive it.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on August 30, 2007, 07:20:52 pm
your welcome for finding the text. It's all those horrible AP and PreAP courses I am taking this year. If you can't remember what you read and where you read it you are screwed ;). And I thought I read something like that too, but i guess we were both hallucinating.  ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Faellie on September 02, 2007, 10:26:10 am
MC, page 97: "It wasn't until Bran explained it all to me that I understood the antagonism Leah had toward me, an antagonism that all the other females had adopted".  This is after it's set out that female werewolves can't carry children, but that Sam thought Mercy might be able to have children that could be walker, werewolf or human.


According to Mallory's Morte D'Arthur, the original Marrok, the knight of the Round Table, was betrayed by his wife and "made seven years a werewolf".  Not a good precedent for a happy marriage.

(No I haven't read the Morte D'Arthur.  I just picked this bit up from the radio.  Apparently no other mentions of Sir Marrok anywhere else in the text.)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 02, 2007, 11:17:13 am
That's really interesting, Faellie.  It leads me to Shakespeare, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."  The WIFE was unfaithful & HE became a werewolf?  Mondo bizzarro!
You don't suppose Leah was taking lessons from Isabelle & Leo, do you?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 02, 2007, 06:16:32 pm
The WIFE was unfaithful & HE became a werewolf?  Mondo bizzarro!

Never ask Arthurian myth to be rational.  It's Medieval Lit, rationality need not apply (but it's oh so fun to read  ;D).


I think Leah hatred for Mercy is extreme. I also think that it's tied to Mercy having some sort of respect and standing with Bran, Charles, and Samuel while not being mated to anyone. Leah gets all of her power from being Bran's mate and along comes Mercy, no mate, an orphaned pup at that, and...she's treated almost as if she's an equal. Everything Leah has to be dominant for, Mercy gets handed (or so she think (or I think, anyway, lol)) Anyway, that's my take on it. I could be way off base.

I don't think this is an accurate interpretation of Mercy's relationship to Bran's pack.  I think Mercy was an outcast for most of her life with the pack.  She says that Sam became her defender after her foster father died, and was better at the job.  Which implies that life among the Marrock could be pretty harsh for Mercy. 

I think part of Leah's problem could be that her husband defended Mercy, when Leah viewed her as, at best, an interloper and at worst, prey.

I think any respect or standing that Mercy holds with the Marrock, comes from her defiance, her ability to bow her head and "lick his boots" and then go and do exactly as she pleases.  I could see Bran being highly amused by Mercy's antics, while Leah may view them as an affront to her husband's authority (and thereby her own position).

If Leah is jealous of Mercy's standing, it's because Mercy is able to attain that standing through means that would not be readily usable for a female were.

That, combined with viewing Mercy as a lesser being and the whole infertility thing, might be enough to push her dislike of Mercy into the extremes of hatred and hosility.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 02, 2007, 06:20:14 pm
That makes total sense, and I can very well see that being the case...Hell, I'D be insanely jealous if I were bound by strict rules, while some interloper gets away with everything for a fraction of the cost.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 02, 2007, 06:59:14 pm
Right, and Leah's had to put up with it for hundreds of years, with no end in sight.  Since no-one has any idea how long Mercy will live, they might not consider that they're making a large portion of her life miserable.  Or, they might not care, non-weres being so ephemeral anyway.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Perkinator on September 02, 2007, 07:50:54 pm
If I had to follow the Alpha's direction...I would be a little grumpy too.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jackie on September 02, 2007, 08:00:24 pm
I think  everyone is seeing Mercy as more important to both Bran and the Marrok than is actually shown in either book.   What's been important is the issues she presents - not Mercy.  She feels she is being treated as a child or at best a "little woman".  She is NOT pack.  She is a pest, or a pet or prey. And she knows it.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 02, 2007, 08:15:13 pm
I will politely disagree with you here, Jackie.  I don't think we're really talking about how important Mercy is to the Marrok pack, or Bran, or Leah, so much as how important they are to her.  Her formative years & her future, since Bran ordered Adam to come to the Tri-cities & watch over her.

And why did he do that if she's not important to him on some level?

I go back to my comment somewhere about how important cubs are to real, 'normal' wolves.  Only the alpha pair breed, but the whole pack takes part in caring for them, & if their actual parents die or disappear, the rest of the pack will raise them as carefully as though they were the blood parents, even as they fight out or simply slip into the second becoming new alpha & picking a mate if he doesn't have one.

And boy oh boy, does Mercy know she's not pack.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on September 02, 2007, 08:43:52 pm
I will politely disagree with you here, Jackie.  I don't think we're really talking about how important Mercy is to the Marrok pack, or Bran, or Leah, so much as how important they are to her.  Her formative years & her future, since Bran ordered Adam to come to the Tri-cities & watch over her.
And why did he do that if she's not important to him on some level?

 I think Bran asked Adam to watch out for her when Mercy moved into His territory. Adam was already in the tri-cities. MC pg95

I think she must be imporant enough to hate ( at least by Leah anyway), I think that Bran sees her as important to his son and therefore not completely insignificant.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 02, 2007, 09:03:18 pm
I'll have to take your word for it, lent my copies out. 
Just thought Mercy & her trailer had already been there when Adam built his mansion looking out at her & he said Bran had sent him to look after her.  Since I shuffle things in my head all the time, I'm not surprised to be wrong.

What I'm trying to say is that IN the Mercy books, we hear Mercy's voice.  This has had a lot of impact on her.  It doesn't say how much impact it has had on the Marrok pack or the alpha pair there.  If there were to be a book or story written from inside the Marrok pack, it might barely mention her & the way she was treated.
Or, Bran might know/guess that there is something important about Mercy, & that's why he tolerated her & has Adam looking out for her.  And, maybe he doesn't know enough to tell Leah why, or doesn't take her interest into account because of the patriarchal society he grew up in and that's why he doesn't tell her, and that's a big part of why she resents Mercy, along with the fertility issue.  Do I know?  No, most decidedly not.  This is all pie in the sky, but ain't it fun pie? ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Perkinator on September 03, 2007, 10:37:05 am
Bran is an enigma. Why he does certain stuff....which makes me wonder if he was something else before he was a werewolf.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Elle on September 03, 2007, 10:47:40 am
Just having read the transcript from the last chat:

GreyDrakkon hmm, I must be the only one who doesn't trust Bran in the least

Patty Good instincts GreyDrakkon.

I think that there's definitely more to Bran that meets the eye. You can't be the Marrok for over 200 years without some kind of agenda.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Perkinator on September 03, 2007, 02:56:39 pm
Just having read the transcript from the last chat:

GreyDrakkon hmm, I must be the only one who doesn't trust Bran in the least

Patty Good instincts GreyDrakkon.

I think that there's definitely more to Bran that meets the eye. You can't be the Marrok for over 200 years without some kind of agenda.
[/quote

Lets see:
1. Bran is a despot. The wolves seem to like that.
2. Kills his friend the Veternarian. It is unclear whether he killed him because he was a threat to his power base, or because he couldn't control his wolf.
3. Can read wolves minds.
4. Deflects attention away from  himself.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Morgaine0000 on September 03, 2007, 04:09:52 pm

2. Kills his friend the Veternarian. It is unclear whether he killed him because he was a threat to his power base, or because he couldn't control his wolf.

I don't think this one is really nefarious.   Bran had previously told Mercy that he couldn't let him see another full moon.  It was also mentioned somewhere that he had already attacked or nearly attacked a family member.   I think the timing was done to fulfill  Gerry's request that his father never find out about his misdeeds.   Gerry's plotting and hiring of witches might have been a threat to Bran, but his father never was.     As for Gerry, if Sam had not killed him, Adam would have. 

Quote
3. Can read wolves minds.

It is interesting how he takes great pains to deny that he can read wolves minds, but at the end of Alpha and Omega, he is pretty clearly having a two way conversation with Charles that he does not bother to hide from Anna.     I also wonder if this ability is really limited to wolves.   
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 03, 2007, 05:53:36 pm
Have to agree with Morgaine0000 on the vet.  I don't have my copy of MC handy but I think they all make it pretty clear (Bran, Sam, Adam and Mercy) that if Dr. Wallace had not been such a good friend of the Marrock before his Change, he would have been killed long before this.

However, the two-way conversation with Charles at the end of A&O can be explained away pretty easily by the fact that canines can communicate wordlessly, and we've already seen Mercy and Honey communicate this way in BB (the scene with John Beckwith).  However, I do agree that we haven't seen the extent of his mind reading powers.

Or, Bran might know/guess that there is something important about Mercy, & that's why he tolerated her & has Adam looking out for her. 

Oh, Patti L., I have always thought that Bran knew more about Mercy than he was letting on.  Possibly alot more.  I have no real textual evidence for this but something about the way he treats her has my Spidey sense tingling.  Can't wait to find out if I'm right or not.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Perkinator on September 03, 2007, 10:24:42 pm
I will give you the Vet one..
I think Bran can definitely read minds. Maybe over the telephone. Look at his responses to the phone conversations with Anna...I don't think his comments are coincidences.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 04, 2007, 06:08:15 am
I dunno if it's mindreading over the phone.  I'm thinking he's got an especially strong connection to Charles, & 200+ years of experience to draw on.  And, whatever The Author was hinting at. :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jackie on September 04, 2007, 09:04:10 am
One of the things I like best about Patty's work is that the characters run the whole range from black to white.  And we get to figure out were in the spectrum they might be.  Bran is definitely open to conjecture.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Morgaine0000 on September 04, 2007, 01:17:02 pm
I think someone in Blood Bound said that there used to be a lot of walkers, but the vampires considered them a threat and killed a lot of them.  I would think it possible that Bran had met some a long time ago.  Especially if there were some among the Salish.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on September 04, 2007, 02:06:49 pm
I never even thought of that...

Couldn't Mercy just ask Stefan about how long she will live?  Since hes a vampire and most likely hunted walkers too way back when then shouldn't he have some idea of it?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 04, 2007, 03:28:00 pm
I was thinking something faintly similar, but didn't articulate it, especially not as well as you two have done.  I'm thinking both Bran & Stephan SHOULD be sources of information to her, if she
1. thinks to ask
2. is given any information. 

We now know that Bran isn't entirely straightforward (Hey, side issue- Howsabout asking his sons?)

And Stephan may be under orders, implicit or explicit, not to answer any such questions.  You noticed how reluctantly any of the vampires would speak about the walkers of old. :P
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on September 04, 2007, 06:59:52 pm
Besides, she might not /want/ to know. She might fear that her life would be shorter because coyotes have much shorter lives then humans, and unlike werewolves, she doesn't heal from the damage of age.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 04, 2007, 09:35:45 pm
Oh, that's tricky, Zealith. 

I thought there was something in one of the chats where Mrs. Briggs said something about the "possibility" that walkers live longer than standard humans, with a hint that Mercy's father might still be alive & pretty old, even though she told Mac that (I think that was the conversation, anyway, when she was trying to distract him from eating the dead werewolf/kidnapper) her dad died about 4-7 days after her mom met him.  She's in her early thirties now, & doesn't show signs we've seen of aging rapidly.
And I don't know about you, but if I even guessed that I wouldn't live my three score & ten by about half that, I'd be sure I'd arranged my will, and I'd probably not be worrying that hard about making payments on the garage.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on September 05, 2007, 02:08:23 pm
I'm just saying, she might have thought about it once, and decided she really didn't want to know. I know in her position I probably wouldn't want to think about it too hard.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 05, 2007, 03:56:24 pm
Well, different folks want different strokes. :D  I kind of see what you're saying.  I wasn't so thrilled with my genetic package OR the process of producing children that I wanted to deal with it, so I wouldn't get all introspective - make that 'don't get all introspective' - about what I'm going to do with the second half of my life -- if I don't get run over on the way home tonight, right?  Being the only walker her mom was able to find, she hasn't any points of reference, so she may have decided that she's not going to sweat it.  Kinda zen, maybe.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Morgaine0000 on September 05, 2007, 05:42:15 pm
Mercy could have half-siblings out there if her father's interactions with her mother was his standard practice. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 05, 2007, 09:37:07 pm
Mercy could have half-siblings out there if her father's interactions with her mother was his standard practice. 

Good point.  Had never thought of that.

As for the Stephan/Bran walker knowledge.

1) Stephan.  Don't think I'd trust anything he told me.  I think he likes Mercy, but also had alterior motives when he "befriended" her.  I think both he and Marsilia see her as a potential weapon to be used to keep the other vamps in line.

2) Bran.  We already know that Bran rarely tells all he knows (see demon lore in BB).  But while he says he doesn't like lies (MC) I think he is as tricky with the truth as Mercy can be (or Leo, if you want a were example).  I think he could have convinced himself that he was "protecting" Mercy by not sharing the truth with her.  Besides, who's to say that Mercy hasn't asked Bran sometime in the past, only to have her questions turned aside.  I think Morgaine0000 is entirely correct in her theory that Bran probably knew walkers in the past.  So the question is why wouldn't he tell Mercy more about her abilities?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on September 06, 2007, 03:35:57 pm
I don't think Bran likes lying, but when you are in any position of power like that you have to be very careful who you tell what.

I personally don't have any spidey sense on whether or not Mercy's dad is still alive. However, I do think He is a lot older than the "young cowboy" were were told about in MC. I grew up surrounded by nick names, I myself have around eight all used by different people, and they are invariably either a shortening of a name, or descriptive of the person they are applied to. I have a hard time believing that a young man would be called "OLD Joe Coyote" if there wasn't something there. If there wasn't some sort of truth in it, whoever nicknamed him would probably have just called him Joe Coyote or Coyote Joe and left off the "old" bit as part of the nickname.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 06, 2007, 09:25:31 pm
I grew up surrounded by nick names, I myself have around eight all used by different people, and they are invariably either a shortening of a name, or descriptive of the person they are applied to. I have a hard time believing that a young man would be called "OLD Joe Coyote" if there wasn't something there. If there wasn't some sort of truth in it, whoever nicknamed him would probably have just called him Joe Coyote or Coyote Joe and left off the "old" bit as part of the nickname.
I don't have my copies to check, Spryte, but I THINK it was 'Joe OLD Coyote', rather than the other way(s) around.
I could be wrong again, as I've been several times, but I pay some attention to the 'indian' names.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: DeDanann on September 06, 2007, 09:52:01 pm
I also got the impression that the "old" in Mercy's dad's name meant something more.  I'd love to know how many walkers Bran encountered over the past couple hundred years.  I'd be very surprised if we were to be told that Bran hadn't ever met any.

Here's a bit of speculation:  Maybe Bran does know more about walkers than he's told Mercy, and decided not to tell her because he thought it might cause both her and him more trouble.  Mercy seems not to feel absolutely compelled to obey any dominant wolf.  As Adam points out, she has no trouble ignoring Bran or Samuel or standing up to them if she wants to, and Adam thinks she only submits to him when she does because some part of her wants to--not has to.  Maybe the "not submitting" part is due to her nature as a walker, and Bran figured that the more she knows about that, the more she'd be able/tempted to upset the fruit basket in the packs, as it were.  Mercy would love to bring the packs into the 21st century.  Now imagine her as a young girl or teen knowing that being a walker made her completely immune to having to obey the alpha.  She might have done some very ill-advised things, as rebellious youngsters are often prone to do.  As it was, it sounded as though some of Bran's pack were tempted to at least hurt her and it was mainly Samuel who kept her in one piece, especially after her foster father died.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on September 07, 2007, 01:55:16 pm
Mercy's not completely imune to the power of the alpah though.  I cant remember if it was Sam or Adam (maybe even Bran) but one of them said something like Look at me, and Mercy said that she couldnt take her eyes of him, even if she wanted to.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 07, 2007, 07:14:14 pm
No, you're right.  She's by no means immune, but she's less affected by it than weres, and maybe less than unaltered humans.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on September 08, 2007, 04:05:10 pm
You are right, it is Joe Old Coyote. But My point was that, nick names aren't given without a reason, so Old wouldn't have just gotten put in there for nothing.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 08, 2007, 06:25:30 pm
You're right on that, too Spryte.  And, if he's as old as you suspect, that may be why it's there.  Or, just as one alternative, it could have been given to an ancestor.  A verrrrry long time ago. ;)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Spryte on September 09, 2007, 10:44:59 am
hmmmmm.  ;) :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 09, 2007, 04:20:51 pm
Is Old Coyote a nick name, or is it a surname?  Not that I know much about Am-Indians, but I thought that sort of name was not uncommon from when the native language was translated into English.  Either way, there could be a fair amount of signifigance to the "old".  We already know there was signifigance to the "coyote".

Here's a bit of speculation:  Maybe Bran does know more about walkers than he's told Mercy, and decided not to tell her because he thought it might cause both her and him more trouble. 

I think your point is pretty much on target.  Plus in BB (I think), Mercy says something about Bran not liking to tell people their limits.  So maybe he wanted her to figure out her strengths and weaknesses on her own.  Besides, in addition to the whole were issue, keeping her immunity to vampire magic a secret probably kept her safe when she moved away from Montana.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 09, 2007, 05:49:07 pm
Urrrrrrr. :: shudders ::  Keeping someone in ignorance "for their own good" SO rubs me the wrong way. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 09, 2007, 06:02:03 pm
I entirely agree, Drakkon.  I've seen some stories where it was a requirement, but it still gets right up my nose.
Two good examples of how it can work out well are 'Sunshine' by Robin McKinley, & 'Talking to Dragons' by Patricia C. Wrede.
Or, for the more sort of middle-ground 'ignorance may not be bliss but it has it's uses' school of thought, the 'Young Wizards' series by Diane Duane has the body of knowledge available to the new practitioners of various species, but in some cases it's a matter of asking the right questions.  The elders just aren't always there to hand you the answers. 
Interestingly, in the Duane books, the idea is that there is some balance.  The young have huge masses of raw power & no knowledge of what they CAN'T achieve, so they do amazing things.  The elders have less power, but can use it more delicately through knowledge & practice.

The ones that really peeve me, to tell you the truth, are the ones where there are answers, or at least clues, available, if only the 'older & wiser' would shut up and let some of the others speak.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 09, 2007, 06:11:43 pm
The only case that I haven't been annoyed with it is in the book I'm reading now, the Harper trilogy by Patricia McKillip.  Most of the people in there are riddlers, so being handed the answer just is not done.  Fortunately the main character isn't stupid, and far smarter than me, so he figures out everything and more.

   I don't mind the "I'm not going to spell everything out for you" thing, especially if that person can give a clue or two when you're hung up on it.  Its when they omit HUGE things that really could save your ass that I get very annoyed.     
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on September 09, 2007, 07:19:16 pm
Urrrrrrr. :: shudders ::  Keeping someone in ignorance "for their own good" SO rubs me the wrong way. 
yep, yep :)
If knowledge is power than keeping others in ignorance is just a way to maintain power over them.  No doubt Bran lets little info out as one of his many, many tools for keeping his power base tight. I don't think he's malicous, but possiblibly hung up on keeping his authority over everyone he is involved with.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 10, 2007, 09:01:27 am
I think with Bran it's the were control freak thing raising its head again.  Besides, we know that any sign of weakness could lead to a challenge.  It must be nice that the next two most powerful wolves are his sons.  Bran is a bit of a paradox though.  I like him alot and I'd trust him with my life, but I'm not sure how far I'd trust him with anything else.  I think he has had to consider the needs of his people for so long, that sometimes he causes inadverdant damage to individuals, even those he cares about.  It's the whole greater good thing.  I really hope Patty gives us more answers about Bran SOON.  Before we make ourselves crazy with speculation  ;).
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 10, 2007, 09:16:06 am
:: detests the "greater good" :: 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jackie on September 10, 2007, 04:35:54 pm
Sorry guys - greater good is a real concern.  Just like individuals are.   It's in the choices made that drama and good stories lurk.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 10, 2007, 09:04:16 pm
yuh.  Just ask Spock. :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on September 11, 2007, 08:27:22 am
Grey Drakkon has a valid POV, one that I agree with :)   - Some of the largest atrocities in history have been perpetrated in the name of "The Greater Good".  It's a view that is developed for the individual, very few causes are truly for the "greater human good", everything else is "the Greater Good for MY group of people - screw YOUR group of people".

Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 11, 2007, 09:25:46 am
I think there are two aspects to the "greater good" argument

1)  The natural give and take within any organized society.  Within any group of people, everyone must sacrifice a bit so that the group can survive.  Be it monetarily, in the form of taxes, or physically, in the from of military service, or, if you look at more "primitive" cultures, by working in groups to hunt or pooling resources to survive a harsh winter, you get the idea.  It's not perfect but it permits humans to live together in a community.

2)  When arguments for the "greater good" severely repress one group, for the advantage of another.  Ie. Pre-Revolution France (or France during the Revolution, for that matter), British Colonial India, or the American post-WWII economic policies toward South America.  And we all know that list can go on and on and on.

I think Bran belongs mostly within the first group.  He's controlling and not always forthcoming because he has to maintain order among the weres.  I think for Bran the occasional damage to an individual, as long as that damage is not permanant, rates pretty low when compared to the damage the weres could do if they were not properly governed.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on September 11, 2007, 10:39:58 am
I agree that Bran makes decisions to secure his control over the Were's, but he's still coming from a place of "if it's what I need for my group".  When an individual is the primary decision maker "for the greater good" choices tend to be more to the detriment of others. Opposed to small group dynamics developing cooperation (your option #1) for a group need.  The FGG argument is available for every war and most other conflicts, those decisions are made at a smaller scale by people every day.  But those actions DO impact others and when folks assume that because it's "for the Greater Good" that makes it Okay, is my problem with it.

 In the Mercy's world, the human's made a FGG decision to put the Fae in "reservations", does that really protect the humans?  Is it good for the Fae?  Is it really For the Greater Good, or just someone's idea of The Greater Good?  Similarly, who knows how Bran's individual decisions have affected the human population or Mercy specifically.

 :) :) I love these kind of discussions!  ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jackie on September 11, 2007, 11:54:10 am
It it because we continue to have these discussions that FGG descisions have even a prayer of being even a shading of gray about them.  Decisions are rarely all win win or win loose(where the loose side is getting what they "deserve").  If decisions that affected a lot of people were that easy for people who want to "do good" to make; we would all be running for president - or mayor.  And we'd have a lot less good fiction to read. And less really interesting debates. ::)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on September 11, 2007, 12:25:54 pm
 ;D yeah, The debate about real leaders/politicians actually making their decisions FGG or other reasons is something else ;) This is one of my favorite quotes ...

 Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
- Douglas Adams

Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 13, 2007, 11:50:15 am
So, the other night in one of my lit courses, we were discussing Foucault and power structures and the Penopticon, yada, yada, and someone brought up the role of the trickster in Native American culture.  (It fit with the book we were reading).  She was saying how the trickster, which in some cultures is represented by the coyote, lives outside of the society and serves to critique the culture and question those in power, so that balance is maintain within that society.  I go to thinking about Mercy (because in any discussion of Foucault you have to let your mind wander occasionally  ;D) and about how well that discription seemed to fit her.  I thought that if walkers fulfilled this role in NA culture and Bran knew about this, he really could have been trying to protect Mercy from a culture that resolves any kind of critique or challenge in a fairly violent way.  It also explains why she is not terribly vulnerable to many of the magics which she encounters.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on September 13, 2007, 01:12:18 pm
Wow, I really like this idea.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on September 13, 2007, 01:16:34 pm
me too ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jackie on September 13, 2007, 03:56:42 pm
Beautifully put.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 13, 2007, 05:47:49 pm
Likewise.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 13, 2007, 07:55:28 pm
So, the other night in one of my lit courses, we were discussing Foucault and power structures and the Penopticon, yada, yada, and someone brought up the role of the trickster in Native American culture.  (It fit with the book we were reading).  She was saying how the trickster, which in some cultures is represented by the coyote, lives outside of the society and serves to critique the culture and question those in power, so that balance is maintain within that society.  I go to thinking about Mercy (because in any discussion of Foucault you have to let your mind wander occasionally  ;D) and about how well that discription seemed to fit her.  I thought that if walkers fulfilled this role in NA culture and Bran knew about this, he really could have been trying to protect Mercy from a culture that resolves any kind of critique or challenge in a fairly violent way.  It also explains why she is not terribly vulnerable to many of the magics which she encounters.

   Nice insight there, but one quibble.  Just how is Bran's not telling her about it protecting her?  Its a part of her to affect change, and from this, a natural ability.  I think that being more aware that she can do things like that would make her more likely to think twice about using any "power" she has.  I didn't take Mercy as the kind of person who enjoys tossing powers around for the fun of it, but would focus herself as needed (mostly to keep her tail attached to her butt! ;)  )
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 13, 2007, 08:50:11 pm
Yes, but if someone told her that her role in life was to be the gadfly of werewolfville, she might take her role as resident smart*** even more seriously.   ;)

No, really, you noticed a pretty big hole in the theory as it pertains to Bran.  Grrr...

But I still like how the trickster role fits Mercy and her personality.  And her relationship to most weres.


Wait...just thought.  By not telling her how her abilities work, or letting her know how her role in NA culture would have functioned, Bran is able to pass her off to the town as just the resident smarta*** and maybe try to curb some of her more outlandish impulses.  She'll think she just needs to watch herself more closely rather than defending herself by demanding the people of Aspen Springs pay her for her wisdom  ;).
 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on September 13, 2007, 10:11:42 pm
I think I  might have missed the point a bit here ( wouldn't be the first time I haven't seen the forest),  but why would Mercy interpret knowledge about her species in the NA community to apply to Bran's world?  I just don't see the connection there.  Yes, she was living in Bran's lil'kingdom but the Trickster/balancing role is just that - a role in specific Native American societies, not wolf packs. The Omega does that job for wolf packs.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on September 14, 2007, 07:23:36 am
Big fat guess here:  Could Mercy, knowing she's half NA, have read up on the culture from the library?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on September 14, 2007, 10:53:01 am
But I think that if Mercy realized why her powers work the way they do (if this is infact their purpose), she would be even less respectful of the weres around her.  Plus there are some pretty big hints in the book that Mercy tried to supress that part of her personality while living among the were, which she might not have done, if she thought there was a reason for that part of her personality.  Besides, I think most tricksters would critique any society in which they lived.

If it was the payment thing that confused you, don't worry I was making a fairly facetious allusion, that only had the most miniscule of references.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 06, 2007, 09:41:15 am
why do you think bran is with leah if she seems so horrible to mercy
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on November 06, 2007, 02:29:47 pm
I have also wondered about this ???, but I developed a theory after reading the history in A&O.  After Charles's Mom died Bran was in a sad situation. His mate just died, leaving him devastated with a newborn werewolf to raise.  Being a bit old fashioned he might feel like he would need a mother for his son and he wouldn't have time to really "date" around.  He couldn't choose a human either, since Charles might have trouble controlling himself for a few years at least.   Maybe Leah was already in Bran's pack (maybe she was the only female in the pack) and he felt that she was dominate enough to be a good mother to Charles.  Given Bran's "abilities" I doubt he didn't sense her character was a little on the rough side, but maybe he didn't think she would be so bitter after raising Charles. I can't really rationalize any other reason for him being attached to such a evil wench unless it was just a necessity. Or at least he felt like it was a necessity.
This is what I think... the only other bit I'll add...  Maybe she is a Hottie? Men can be ... welll, men... when it comes to beautiful women.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Talking_Mouse on November 06, 2007, 05:09:07 pm
Possibly, but I somehow don’t see that as the full reason.  Remember that as an unmated female she belonged to Bran because he is the Alpha.  If all that was there was sexual attraction, on Bran’s part, he could have indulged that without mating with her.

However, to give your idea its due, Bran was raised in a time when men believed there were two kinds of women; there were the women that men married and there were the whores and mistresses, and never the twain shall meet in the same woman.  It might have been that he felt that Leah was a marrying kind of woman.

Looking at Leah’s name, she was the first wife of Jacob.  Who was tricked into marrying her when he thought he was marrying her sister Rachel.  She was not loved by her husband, who loved his other wife – Rachel.  Let’s say Leah loved Bran when they first met.  Bran’s wolf looks at Leah and says “Mine!”   Bran the man, who lives in the present not in the past, knows the wife he loved is dead and he is lonely – he’s used to being married, he knows he needs a mother for Charles and he knows Leah loves him.  So he mates with her.

Now Leah expects her husband to love her back the way she loves him.  Bran, on the other hand, does not really love Leah, he likes her but his passion (obsession maybe) is being Marrok, so he can keep his wolves safe. Bran is a wolf who is married to his job.  He spends more time with his sons, because they have parts to play in keeping his wolves safe.  Leah grows increasingly jealous of the time and attention Bran gives to others and not to her.  He loves his other wife, being Marrok, not her. 

Can we all tell I spend way to much time thinking about these characters?  ;)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on November 07, 2007, 02:41:30 pm
I like how you bring the orgin of the names into this. That adds a whole new level to Leah's character.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Talking_Mouse on November 07, 2007, 06:41:14 pm
Thank you, when I first read the scene in MC where we meet Leah in her wolf form I thought of the origin of her name.  The more our gracious hostess has given hints to Leah’s and Bran’s relationship as well as Leah’s and Bran’s son’s relationship I think she chose the name very carefully.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 08, 2007, 03:32:12 pm
cool background on the name, did you notice any for the other characters?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on November 08, 2007, 11:49:16 pm
Some cool stuff on Bran over on the Marrock page.  There's a Bran in Celtic myth. 

Samuel is a prophet, but I can't quite see how it would fit.  His mother does promise him to God if she can only have a son, but since our Sam was born before Bran was turned the fertility thing is not necessarily an issue, so that's out. Ooo, unless the desperation for children is Sam's desperation.  It's 2 am, let me think about this and maybe you'll get a more coherent post.

Cool theory, TM.  I think most of us agree that something twisted Leah, but we'll see what Patty tells us  ;D.  Maybe she is just a big ole nasty.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 09, 2007, 02:12:54 pm
maybe sam being given to god shows that bran coul be the godly figure
but im not sure
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on November 10, 2007, 04:42:36 pm
I think its more likely that its more of Sams desperation of children.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 10, 2007, 06:05:28 pm
yeah that sounds better
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Talking_Mouse on December 28, 2007, 11:23:35 pm
*****************************SPOILERS FROM IRON KISSED****************************

S

P

O

I

L

I

E

R



S

P

A

C

E



So, according to Samuel his father despises his mate.  However, he (Bran) will not speak a word against her, nor let anyone say anything negative about her in his hearing.  His wolf chose her when Charles' mother died, so he would not be alone.  This is truly the wolf choosing, and the man having to follow along.

Does this show Bran is honorable to stay with her,  or is he cutting off his nose to spite his face staying with her, or since wolves mate for life is he stuck until one of them dies?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on December 29, 2007, 12:02:55 pm
I think he's pretty much stuck until one or the other dies. However, I'm sure if he was too misrable with Leah, his wolf would find a way to break it off.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on December 29, 2007, 12:27:58 pm
I agree - I think Patty hinted at that in one of the chats- but there is no divorce when a wolf choose to mate  its more permanent.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Jane on December 29, 2007, 03:03:11 pm
I was just going to say what Talking_Mouse explained. :)

I think he's stuck with her until one of them dies since his wolf chose her, even though he doesn't like her. I wonder if Leah's wolf chose him as her mate but the person doesn't like him either.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on December 29, 2007, 03:29:45 pm
I think Leah likes the power she gets from being his mate from the impression she gives me. Its like in Aspen Creek the women follow look up to her - but when she sees people that goes against authority she hates it. Mercy does that on purpose and she gets away with it due to her wits.
Another impression especially from reading that bit in MC  is that I dont think she is particularly dominant as well and she is pretty insecure. Sam was more dominant in that scene where they had a face off- yet in the hierarchy she is suppose to be above him. I think this is partly why she doesn't like Bran's sons and Mercy- this is on top of the love and the affection that he has for them as well. By the way I have a feeling that although Mercy isn't a werewolf I think she is pretty dominant and more so than Leah.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Talking_Mouse on December 29, 2007, 11:48:44 pm
I tend to agree with what everyone has said that Bran and Leah are stuck with each other until one of them dies, with one important exception.  We learned in IK that if an Alpha’s mate cheats on him, he is perceived as weak and he can leave her.  I don’t see Leah doing anything to endanger her position as the mate of the Marrok, however we have only seen her for one scene.

Has, I agree with you that Leah doesn’t seem to be that dominant.  This might be part of the problem with Bran, he needs someone who is a bit closer to him in dominance, no one being equal to him there, but he can’t partner with someone who is so radically different in dominance levels than he is.   
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: life06 on December 31, 2007, 12:44:16 pm
I remember reading somewhere in BB that the female werewolves take their dominance from their mates so I don't understand how this could be an issue.

I don't know if anyone hasa brought this up before but why does Leah and all the female werewolves hate Mercy so much? I realize it might be because she can have children and they can't, however there are other options out there today. For instance having someone else a non werewolf ccarry their child instead of the female werewolf?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on December 31, 2007, 12:54:46 pm
It's not all female werewolves, Mercy gets along just fine with the females in Adam's pack.
It's only the females in the Morrok Pack that have problems with her. Presumably because Leah doesn't like Mercy and to get points with her the other females follow her lead.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on December 31, 2007, 01:10:25 pm
I'd like to add as well that although the mates who do follow the rank of their mates- There is conflict, look at Honey and her hubby- Shes dominant but she is at the bottom of the pack because he is a submissive thats got be hard on her. I think Patty stated this in a chat. Also another thing you have to factor is that I am pretty sure that Leah is not that Dominant and although Bran doesnt appear that dominant he is the Marrok that has got to be very hard to live with. There is inequality in that relationship and Leah is insecure which is why she reacts that way I think towards Mercy, who isnt a werewolf yet has the ability not to submit to a powerful alpha. Add the fertility no wonder Leah is unhinged.
Well thats my two pence worth - there could be more to it? But I may not like Leah as a person- but as character in the series I like all the conflict she causes its going to be interesting to see what she does in Anna and Charles book ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Perkinator on December 31, 2007, 06:36:32 pm
It wouldn't be as interesting story if Bran's mate was actually nice.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: charmed on December 31, 2007, 06:39:21 pm
true, very true  ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on December 31, 2007, 07:05:40 pm
I dont - I mean she doesnt like Sam how can she be nice if she doesnt like him. Nope she not nice at all
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on January 02, 2008, 12:24:04 pm
yeah, I bet she'll have issues with Anna too...  i don't think she likes Charles either.
 
I dont - I mean she doesnt like Sam how can she be nice if she doesnt like him. Nope she not nice at all
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on January 03, 2008, 12:42:49 pm
yeah, I bet she'll have issues with Anna too...  i don't think she likes Charles either.
 
I dont - I mean she doesnt like Sam how can she be nice if she doesnt like him. Nope she not nice at all

Ooh, really looking forward to seeing that!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: leaf on January 24, 2008, 12:42:47 pm
Hi
Could it be that she's behaving badly towards Mercy (and for all we know other people who don't fit with her world view) because she can - the Marrok being the only person who she is answerable to?  Maybe Bran is indulgent to her because he doesn't love her & feels guilty about it?  Maybe it is a bit like when you are extra polite to people because you feel bad about not liking them?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on January 24, 2008, 02:10:56 pm
I think he is just being a man and trying to avoid the business of woman's social nastiness. Not that he is being indulgent, more like he doesn't notice unless it's serious physical punishment. I get the feeling that most of Leah's nastiness falls in to the psychological torment category of a bullying, like social isolation.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Triakel on January 25, 2008, 03:45:18 am
Ohhh, what an interesting thread!¨

On Bran
All of you make good arguments for your points of views. I just don't know. Instinctivly I like Bran, but like many of you I hate "for your own good", and Bran is neck-deep in that. I do believe his intentions are good though (great definition of social contracts btw).

On Leah
I agree she didn't strike me as dominant in the "natural alpha" way. More in the "wannabe" beta way. You know the type, the bullies, cool kids, who are so tough until the going gets really tough, then they back down. In my opinion, when these people obtain power, they are the kind of leaders who love the power, the status, lording it over others, but won't take on the responsibility. It's like a boss I had once, who wanted to know everything, she said, but when asked for help, even with organizing the work-group, told us to do it ourselves. All control, no actual work. That was a lenghty tirade, but I wanted to explain what I meant by beta. The kind of leader who doesn't understand it's a contract of give and take. Selfish, basicly. Although to be fair, not all people are capable of all that it takes to be a good leader, but if you don't have what it takes to fulfill the role, you should recognise it and step down. But that's what people in the "beta" category never do, in my experience. Because they love the power over other people too much.
I think Leah and Mercy's personalities would have crashed either way, but that Leah probably hated Mercy from day one (the implications that Mercy's childhood was difficult with Bran's pack) for reasons beyond Mercy herself, like maybe resenting Bran's interest in the child (I agree with those who think Bran holds Mercy as much more important than she herself understands. The books are after all narrated from Mercy's point of view, and I've often gotten the impression she's not reading enough into her realationship with Bran's pack). And then there is the fertility thing of course. But I can imagine her dislike only grew as Mercy did. Mercy wouldn't have been dominated by Leah, and that would have made her madder, I think. Here was a female more truly dominant than her, ya know? (even if Mercy might not want to lead, I think she probably has the potential for it, and would be a "respect comes with responsibility" type, ie a good leader, which Leah is not)

Before I go, what did you guys think of my solution to the Leah problem, hehe?  ;D Use her as test-subject for female werewolf "run-away-from-the-moon-to-have-a-baby" fertility treatment...

/L
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on January 25, 2008, 09:28:03 am
I agree!!!!

Although its a bit more than that as well- in Alpha and Omega, Isabelle has also stood up to Bran and he understood and liked her despite her rebellious nature.
I think Mercy has a similar thing too, but what really gets to Leah is that Mercy isnt a werewolf and is a Walker/coyote which really must get to her especially- its implied that Mercy is naturally more dominant as well, because she can stand up to Bran. I dont think Leah can do that to him and it really bugs her.
I wonder if Leah as a woman loves Bran or its the same thing that Bran has for Leah. Is it just their wolves that are mated but their human sides cant stand each other- and Leah is definitely enjoying the queen bee status.
 
And talking about children - I don't think Bran would like to have kids with her, as a man he cant stand her and would he be able to stomach her bearing him children if she could. And despite the fact that she is resentful about Mercy's ability to have them, because she is unable to bear them-
how she is portrayed so far is she a good mother ??? She hasn't displayed any positive personality traits and we can argue that she is misunderstood. But she doesn't like Bran's sons either, perhaps because they are his children and she is resentful because of that but it does show she is pretty bitter and vindictive, not good qualities to be a mother I think. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: rolange on January 25, 2008, 11:25:39 am
I spent some time this morning going through this whole thread and it was very interesting. However, I still have some questions and/or observations if you'll bear with me.

Questions.
How long did Bran's wolf wait before he chose Leah as his mate? What is it about Leah that made the wolf choose her, was it simply to fill a void? How old is Leah and was she a werewolf when Bran's wolf chose her or was she changed? Since she was chosen after Charles' mother died, did she help raise Charles? (wait a minute, if she was chosen after Charles' mother died...she must be pretty old too, lol I also can't imagine her raising Charles, I think Samuel would have been more help there than his step-mother).

As for Leah, maybe she's unhappy. She gets whatever dominance she has from being Bran's mate, even though Bran in human form can't stand her. She must  know that. In any case, I think Patti has indicated that she's aware that the whole pack remembers how much Bran loved Charles' mother and that's gotta affect her self-esteem, add to that her knowledge that Bran the man (lol) didn't choose her but his wolf did. Maybe she feels that she's owed respect because of her ranking but Bran's pack has two other dominates, Samuel and Charles, add to that Bran thinking of Mercy as his daughter (giving her respect and ranking to an ipso facto member of the pack) and her standing is actually a lot lower than it would be in another pack. It's like winning the lottery but having to share it with 17 others. It doesn't really feel like winning now, does it?

I don't feel sorry for Leah though, she seems like a mean and miserable person whose simply filling a void for Bran's wolf. Too bad his wolf hadn't been more patient and waited until a more suitable mate came along. Still, she does add a interesting dynamic to the stories which makes me even more interested in seeing more of the Marrok and his pack.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on January 25, 2008, 12:02:58 pm
I think Leah had a choice to be like this though - she allowed hate and bitterness to overrule her and perhaps she should have known that being Bran's mate was going to be difficult. From the sounds of it I get the impression that she was a werewolf because she was attracted to the fact that she could be female equivalent of the Marrok and when that wasn't the case it must have made her a little crazy. Also this raises the question that to have a healthy mating both man and wolf must be mated and love their partners. Both Adam, Sam and Bran shows that there seems to be problems with their relationships - although I am sure there other matings or marriages where the couples are content. But if the wolf or man is unhappy with the mating/marriage it must be hell to be with someone they despise.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Triakel on January 26, 2008, 10:27:39 am
Yeah, I agree that Leah definently doesn't seem like a nice person, and that it's almost certainly HER fault. I mean, there are people who have mental problems or illnesses that excuse their behaviour a little. Even childhood hurts and stuff (even though I'm a firm believer in the "once-you're-18-and-an-adult-it-is-your-own-d*mn-responsibility-to-fix-youself" not without help or support, but I just feel that once you're legally an adult, you can no longer hide behind excuses for your behaviour. If you have a problem, it's up to you to GET HELP for it. I don't expect you to do it all on your own, and I don't mean that we can't use psycological and social theories, but I just feel that the world would be better if people actually used their ability for reason in order to look at themselves a bit more, you know?).
But Leah, especially since she's probably at least a century or something, has had a lot of time for soulsearching. And being born in an earlier time means she should be more accostumed to being opressed and all...  :P  Kidding. Don't mean she's opressed. But we had a really interesting lecture once about the notion of romance and marriage, and how current western civilization's definition of family and marriage comes from the burgois classes in the 19th century, and how before that, love and marriage was NOT so mutually intertwined, one connoting the other etc. Great class. And I'm not explaining it as well as Tina does, but it's about the ideologies, the ideas, the mind, not the hard facts, because of course one already knew that the royals married for politics, and the upper classes married for money and connections etc. But somehow, trying to put aside one's own idea of what marriage is, one could much more readily understand a farmer marrying a girl from a family that could give her a cow, cause that would be useful, and choosing the girl cause she was healthy and strong and could bear him children that could help on the farm. I mean, to us it's cold, but if you don't factor in love, it makes sense, and who is to say they couldn't have grown to respect and like eachother, and been happy with their lives?`

The point of this long rant is that not only does this co-incide with our dear Samuel's views of Mercy (he considers them honourable, he's up front with her, he thinks, ignoring for his own comfort the fact that people born in this century wouldn't be able to understand his way of thinking). I also think it gives an explanation to why Bran would go ahead with marrying Leah even though he didn't love her. He loved his dead mate, but for him that must have been like an abnormality, or stroke of luck or something. And if Leah's born before 1800, she should have been cool with that. And anyway, even if she's a Jane-Austen era woman, wouldn't the ideal for women from that time have been to buckle up and do the best of the situation? Like Anne's mother did in Persuasion. And that's what I think is most reprehensible in how Leah behaves. She has the chance to actually make a difference. She has money, power and respect from her husband. He might not love her, but he never disrespects her, undermines her in public etc. If she had wanted, she could have taken all the passion she can't have in her marriage and done great things. Teach the younger wolves, mother them or lead them, create a close-knit comunity for the few female were-wolves (doesn'te even have to be feminist-like, or empowering or anything. Even just female companionship in the form of knitting-groups or whatever). She could have worked with Samuel on the fertility thing. She could do so many positive things, and instead she uses her energy to hate. Hate Mercy, hate Bran, hate his sons. That is her decision, and that is what is, to me, an actuall sin. It's wasted potential. Because no matter what genetical and social potential she had, she must have been able to do better than she has, right?

/L
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on January 26, 2008, 01:10:15 pm
How old is Leah and was she a werewolf when Bran's wolf chose her or was she changed? Since she was chosen after Charles' mother died, did she help raise Charles? (wait a minute, if she was chosen after Charles' mother died...she must be pretty old too).
It's like winning the lottery but having to share it with 17 others. It doesn't really feel like winning now, does it?
I don't feel sorry for Leah though, she seems like a mean and miserable person whose simply filling a void for Bran's wolf. . Still, she does add a interesting dynamic to the stories which makes me even more interested in seeing more of the Marrok and his pack.

This quote is seriously snipped, butfor a reason.  It's particularly this section:  "(wait a minute, if she was chosen after Charles' mother died...she must be pretty old too)."


Wrong.  She could be 20years older than Mercy.
Or 150.
But we don't know.
Otherwise, you have all come up with some really good stuff.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on January 26, 2008, 01:41:23 pm
I have a feeling that she is under a 100 years old - dont know why but that is the impression that I have and I think Sam stated in IK that Bran's wolf felt that he was alone long enough and claimed Leah. But interesting thoughts Triakel- I think Leah is going to cause alot of trouble and tension in the Anna and Charles books!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on January 27, 2008, 05:28:34 pm
I think in many ways Leah was a character that Patty set up as interesting backdrop in MC, and then when the series took off, she kind of had to say, why is Leah sooo nasty?  And why does Bran put up with her?

It should be interesting to see how she develops the character.  Plus it's always fun to have a minor villan running around.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on January 28, 2008, 06:34:32 pm
Wrong.  She could be 20years older than Mercy.
Or 150.
But we don't know.
Otherwise, you have all come up with some really good stuff.
We don't know that.  She could be older than Bran.  All we know is that his wolf choose her sometime in the last 200 years.  Maybe Bran met her when she was alread 150 or maybe she wa born in 1962 ;)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on January 28, 2008, 10:36:55 pm
That's what I was trying to say.  She could theoretically be older than Bran, which could mean that she's going very slowly crazy, manifesting it in hating Mercy.  Or she could be near his age.  Or a few years younger than Charles.  Or just a few years -15 or 20 years - older than Mercy.  The current information doesn't tell us, one way or the other.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Cerulean on January 29, 2008, 03:00:25 pm
Is it possible to un-mate? If someone more suited to Bran came along, would his wolf release the bond?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on January 29, 2008, 03:09:04 pm
I think in a chat - Patty hinted that there is a way out of a mating but it usually involves killing the mate I think, since death is the only way out. Mating is much more permanent than marriage and I think there is a deeper bond as well especially if both man/woman and wolf are mated.  Although she did state that someone could leave their mate but its got to  be be really hard and probably it depends on the circumstances. I suppose betrayal/infidility could definitely be reasons for leaving or killing the mate. And  I also think another factor is that if only the wolf is mated like Bran- Adam I think wasnt mated at all to his wife which allowed for the divorce/separation.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on February 02, 2008, 08:50:25 pm
That's what I was trying to say.  She could theoretically be older than Bran, which could mean that she's going very slowly crazy, manifesting it in hating Mercy.  Or she could be near his age.  Or a few years younger than Charles.  Or just a few years -15 or 20 years - older than Mercy.  The current information doesn't tell us, one way or the other.
sorry  :-[ I misread your post :)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on February 04, 2008, 08:27:32 am
No, you didn't, I just wasn't clear in how I put it; I apologize to you!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: berneynator on March 10, 2008, 03:53:56 pm
Didn't Sam's wolf decide to un-mate Mercy? It doesn't even seem to have been a mutual decision, but it opens up the possibility if the wolf side wants to break the mating. I didn't get the impression that the human side gets to control mating much at all, although Sam kind of forced a mating with Mercy by showing her to his wolf. Still, I think it was also said that many werewolves are married for years before the wolf half takes their spouse for a mate- so it's the wolf's choice, not the humans.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on March 10, 2008, 07:19:10 pm
She never accepted him, so it wasn't a true mating.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on March 11, 2008, 11:55:25 am
I thought he DID accept her, but then felt sorry for her and backed down?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenniwee on March 11, 2008, 04:01:17 pm
I think for there to be a true mating, you need to have both parties involved.  Obviously, a wolf can view a person as their mate (ie.  Mercy and Adam; Mercy and Sam; Warren and Kyle) without the other person's knowledge or agreement.  And so, that person then has a choice to accept the mating or not.  But I think once the other person acknowledges and accepts the mating, the relationship becomes more permanent.  (I would assume that with married couples, the wife's previous vows count as acceptance once the wolf decides to take her as a mate).

Hopefully, we'll get more on mating in Cry Wolf.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on March 12, 2008, 08:01:39 am
Perhaps to cement the mating - it would have to involve the ceremony that Patty hints about. With the ceremony both parties have to accept the mating which binds them together. :)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on March 16, 2008, 06:21:51 pm
Yes, I'm sure there is some sort of mutual consent that formalizes it.  Patty has made a few mentions of ways that mating can end, but I wonder if Bran's wolf would un-mate with Leah if the man Bran actually fell in love with someone else?  He seems to be the romantic love-at-first-sight kinda guy, so I guess it's possible in the right scenario for him to get into a major internal conflict.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on March 17, 2008, 05:19:10 am
Yes, I'm sure there is some sort of mutual consent that formalizes it.  Patty has made a few mentions of ways that mating can end, but I wonder if Bran's wolf would un-mate with Leah if the man Bran actually fell in love with someone else?  He seems to be the romantic love-at-first-sight kinda guy, so I guess it's possible in the right scenario for him to get into a major internal conflict.

Ohhhh interesting - I could see that happening especially since Bran hates Leah. But it would have to depend on his wolf though. The wolf chose Leah to be his mate and that is a harder bond to end.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: CheeseBK on March 17, 2008, 05:45:19 am
does Bran really HATE leah... or does he simply not like her? Cause I think it's kind of hard and does not seem very symbiotic (as I usually see the wolf-human-thing) if the wolf accepts somebody as a mate, but the human half despises that person..... seems rather cruel
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on March 17, 2008, 05:59:28 am
I think Sam stated in IK that Bran despises Leah but his wolf is mated to her- but he just wont want to hear any criticisms of her when he is around- but he knows what she is like. perhaps his wolf dislikes hearing it and feels that his mate is threatened?
Its got to be hard to live with that kind of mating because Bran's human half isnt happy with her yet the Wolf is in control. I wonder if it depends on how dominant a wolf is? especially how the wold can overpower the human in this respect- and since Bran is very dominant then thats got to be hard.
Its interesting to note that in comparison Adam never mated with his wife and I think from a chat or on the boards - Patty mentioned that his wolf didnt like her so it was a reversal of what Bran is going through. But unlike Bran - Adam got out of his bad relationship pretty easily.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on March 17, 2008, 09:09:21 am
How did Adams wolf unmate with his X if he didnt kill her?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on March 17, 2008, 11:58:28 am
Adam's wolf never mated with his ex- there's no mention of a mating between them- I think Patty stated in a chat that his wolf wasnt happy and disliked her but relented.
Perhaps to have a true and probably a happy mating both man and wolf need to accept and love their mate. Because if you have one half who is unhappy it can definitely lead to unhappiness but thats not to say of other successful matings/marriages with one side wanting their partner.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on March 17, 2008, 09:07:53 pm
OOO...I thought that they WERE mated so thats were I got confused.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ravenmichelle on March 18, 2008, 03:19:58 am
hi.. not sure if this is off typic. as bran's wolf took leah but as human they dislike each other (to a degree) and adam and his x the wolf did not like her but dealt with it..  how will adams wolf accept mercy's coyote?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Temari on March 18, 2008, 03:22:57 am
I think there was an ask Patty about that and she said that Adam's wolf liked Mercy. I think that Mercy, unlike the wolves, doesn't have a seperate identity for her coyote... maybe that's a new discussion topic?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on March 18, 2008, 06:20:52 am
I just started a new thread on this - since we are verging going OT :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Iris101 on March 18, 2008, 09:53:41 am
I also remember Patty saying I think, that in the wild wolves and coyotes can mate, but usually dont or something like that
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on March 19, 2008, 03:30:34 pm
Wolves typically attack anything canine that encroaches on their territory, including coyotes.  (which is probably another reason why Leah doesn't like Mercy, her wolf sees this THING sauntering around HER mate)   However, they CAN mate, just as dogs and wolves, and dogs and coyotes can. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on March 19, 2008, 05:47:09 pm
Wolves typically attack anything canine that encroaches on their territory, including coyotes.   
And felines.  Other predators, basically.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on March 22, 2008, 04:10:59 pm
I think wolves and cougars can occupy the same territory in the wild(or at least overlapping territory), but I may be very wrong about that.  :)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on March 22, 2008, 04:58:49 pm
True, at the very least partly.  I think they *try* to intimidate/drive out other predators above the size of a fox, though.  Up to stopping at bears, of course.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grey Drakkon on March 23, 2008, 08:21:42 am
Cougars prefer more mountainous terrain than wolves (so they can jump on critters from above) so the overlap isn't all that great most of the time.  Depends on the situation, but yeah for the most part if they encountered each other they'd try to intimidate each other into backing off.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on May 18, 2008, 03:45:22 am
Cougars prefer more mountainous terrain than wolves (so they can jump on critters from above) so the overlap isn't all that great most of the time.  Depends on the situation, but yeah for the most part if they encountered each other they'd try to intimidate each other into backing off.


On the East coast near a former land fill re-habilitated into a wilderness preserve, scientists released the last group of red wolves alive in the USA.  The group went form something like 8 members to 89.  Routinely they monitored the population to make sure no other breed of wolf somehow found its way into the area and inter bred with the population.  They wanted to the give the authentic jumping red wolves strain of the species a second chance in the world.  If the line eventually failed and interbred out of existance it would happen but the scientists wanted them up at a minimum number of individuals before letting nature take its course.  Anyway along the way the single biggest interbreader into the red wolf lines they had to watch out for were coyotes.  It wasn't common maybe one or two packs out of 9-11.  But every now and then a redwolf's offspring would be discovered to be 1/2 coyote.  Once a large coyote male actually joined the pack.  They speculated that because of the relatively smaller size of the red wolf, still bigger than coyote's but smaller than other wolf breeds made coyote matings more likely.  Anyway they sterilized teh coyote male who joined the pack and also killed or sterilized all the 1/2 coyote offspring so it wouldn't pollute the blood lines.  But inter-canide matings and even coyote's joining the packs happened in this study population.  That's not to say that dead coyote's weren't found in several of the wolf's territories and it was more likely to be a dead coyote who entered the area, rather than a coyote who joined the pack, but there's my report of a tv documentary with actual real life wolf coyote mating and pack joining.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Temari on May 18, 2008, 07:57:29 am
That's a really interesting study, thanks for posting that, King. Great to hear how the cross-breeding can happen with real packs.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on May 18, 2008, 08:06:15 pm
That's a really interesting study, thanks for posting that, King. Great to hear how the cross-breeding can happen with real packs.

Here's some links for more info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Wolf3

http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/red_wolf.php


There is some speculation as to whether its a distinct species of wolf or a grey wolf/coyote hybride species.  Or third that it once was a uique species but has since inter bred with both.  Anyway interesting stuff I thought.  Glad you liked it.


The Deposed King
Title: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Lightning on May 24, 2008, 05:38:12 pm
i was wondering if Anna and Mercy would ever met, you know because they were both raped in one way or another?
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Zealith on May 24, 2008, 09:51:29 pm
Unless A&O series takes a major leap in the time line I doubt it. It would be too much of a spoiler.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Has on May 25, 2008, 03:13:41 am
I think Patty said that there wont be much of a crossover - but I think she's trying to have both series share a similar timeline because it made things difficult about not mentioning things that have happened or not happened.

By the way I think Anna was with Charles who helped Adam when they went to DC about the tape. I think Anna would definitely be needed to help calm Adam down when he was in front of the committee.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Iris101 on May 25, 2008, 03:07:49 pm
The rape tape?
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Has on May 26, 2008, 02:34:05 am
Yep - sorry.

I also wonder if Adam and Charles actually do manage to clear that up although Sam did say they were making a good impression. I have a feeling the tape will have consequences.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: white_unicorn on May 26, 2008, 09:38:12 am
I am actually wondering about that... Hm,  in Blood Bound when Charles comes to Tri-Cities with Bran.... Anna could be there, Adam and Sam could benefit from her presence, unless she was needed in Montana.... And I know if I was in her place.... uh.... I wouldn't leave Charles....

Since I read the 2nd book (it came straight thought the 1st had to come through Sweden and a relative :( ) I reamember I adored Sam..... I would Love to see him finding his mate.... One that both the man and the wolf would love....
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Has on May 26, 2008, 12:05:36 pm
Quote
I am actually wondering about that... Hm,  in Blood Bound when Charles comes to Tri-Cities with Bran.... Anna could be there, Adam and Sam could benefit from her presence, unless she was needed in Montana.... And I know if I was in her place.... uh.... I wouldn't leave Charles....

Perhaps she was in the background and I doubt that Charles and Bran would bring her in to a very dangerous situation with a demon possessed vampire and bring Anna in his presence. But since she was an Omega she could have helped out with the violent/short tempered feelings.

But I suppose the later books in the Anna and Charles series will soon catch up with the timeline - because I can see the tape and the Werewolf bill could involve them as they would try to clean up the fall out.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Iris101 on May 27, 2008, 03:47:16 pm
Ya, I dont think they would of wanted her to, but Im not sure they could of stopped her since she could of easily followed them...
Title: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: luvstraberries on August 05, 2008, 07:16:56 pm
Okay... I wasn't sure where to post this, so if I am in the wrong area, please let me know!

I am re-reading Moon Called and in it we learn Samuel is from Bran's first wife.

We learn in CW that both Samuel and Bran are changed by the "pet" belonging to Bran's mother who was a witch.  How long was Bran married before he had Samuel? Why did his mom wait so long to change Bran?  Did Bran have siblings?

I have lots more questions and will start a different post so that they don't get all jumbled togehter!!  LOL

  ;D
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Zealith on August 06, 2008, 02:45:26 pm
She might have changed Bran soon after she got this 'pet'. After all, I'm sure it is difficult finding a werewolf you can control.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: white_unicorn on September 09, 2008, 11:17:01 pm
I may have missed it but I don't remember it saying that Brans mother was a were... The change may not have been intentional.

Oh it was intentional... at least from how Bran puts it.

his mother was a witch, not a were, and had a 'pet' (could that pet have the same meaning as when Mariposa talked of pets?) which I assume was a werewolf under her will. she forced the change on her son (Bran) and grandson (Sam) though I am not so sure about the timeline.. if they were changed at the same time or not.. (though I suspect they did...).
At the time she had the wolves under her command she shared some of their abilities such as, agility and maybe speed. loike we see in Mariposa in Cry Wolf....
then Bran killed her (how he managed to break her hold only they know...) and spend quite a time trying to 'recover' and put the berserker he became  in his cage...
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: ALeighc on September 11, 2008, 10:06:28 pm
A crossover would be interesting... But since they are separate series I don't know... That's a big decision as an author.  And as a reader... I'm split.  I would love for them to meet, but it might complicate the stories....  I dunno :S
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Bithalynn on September 12, 2008, 09:23:19 am
I thought Bran's mother was just a really powerful witch who made Bran and Sam werewolves and that they were the pets. I'm probably mistaken...

On one of the other threads, they were discussing the possibility of Bran being the original Marrok, one of Arthur's knights. I think the legend of Sir Marrok is that his wife did it to him, but that could just be used as an example of how the stories change as they're passed down.

If it's true, that would be two legends who owe a lot to Bran and his mother. Beowulf and Sir Marrok...
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Patti L. on September 13, 2008, 11:41:03 am
Maybe so.  However, one may acquire new titles later in life.  Does not the heir to the british crown go from Prince of Wales & duke of this, count that, etc. to King of England?
Or moving from colonel to general to congressman?  Mister to corporal to reverend?  I suspect Bran has had many titles and aliases in his day, just like Asil, the Moor, Hassan.  Yes?
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: gryphon340 on September 14, 2008, 07:40:45 am
Mercedes Lackey "Never mind what they call you, It's what you responed that counts." paraphased from "Owlsight".
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: lunastars on September 16, 2008, 03:55:13 am
What I could imagen that there could be some crossover scenes, where they meet each other for an hour or two, Kind of like Charls passing by Adam with Anna to pick something up, Anna and Charles leaving, while Mercy arrives... But not a real crossover...
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: OTenshi on September 19, 2008, 03:50:20 am
A crossover short story, an interlude... perfect idea, lunastars!

I'm just glad that there's been so few conflicts with the timelines so far.  In my head there's two people voting, one is monotonously chanting "more more more more", the other is worried that all of those silly little nit-picky details that bother me will there in droves since they're netoriously difficult to weed out.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: lunastars on September 28, 2008, 09:43:46 am
well what I really like about Patrica Briggs writing is, she is able to tell a fantastic story with a lot of suspens and different plots and still keeping it simple. So I really cant imagen that she would have to many difficulties with the timelines and stuff like that... And if there could be she would not write it....
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Lakritz on September 28, 2008, 10:37:23 am
I could also imagine, that Anna and Mercy meet - but more or less in between books. So we would get both of them knowing the other and thinking about the other one, but no actual scenes with both of them in it. I think that it is logical for them to meet, since both are so important to the Marrok and his sons - but I also think, that it could get confusing having both in both series...
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: amandalou on October 06, 2008, 08:38:55 am
Someone might have already mentioned this but in A&O there is a part in there that talks about the beast inside of bran and how the beast can never agin rule over bran because of the devistation it would cause. Bran had been really torn up over charles' mothers death. When he was so upset over loosing his true love he feared that the beast would over power his control. I believe he chose leah because he knew that because she was so bitchy and rude that he would never love her.  And if he never loved her he would not have to worry about something happening to her and him not being able to control the beast within himself.  Im pretty sure thats what it said.  Or at least thats what I took from it.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Linnea on October 27, 2008, 04:55:40 pm
Bran did think Leah was "so selfish and stupid he was certain he could never really love her." (CW 293)  It would be hard on any woman to know that her mate not only despises her, but that everyone else knows it too.  It would be humiliating every single day.

On the topic of bitterness over infertility, I wonder how many of the females were turned involuntarily.  If they chose to turn, I would think that they would've had their children already or not wanted any.

~Linnea
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on October 27, 2008, 05:09:33 pm
Or were young and stupid. *shrug* I know many girls my age who swear they'll never have kids, but I susect at least half of them will change their minds by the time they're 30.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Ellyll on October 27, 2008, 05:41:17 pm
Probably.  When I was your age, I and all my friends were never going to have kids.  Twenty-some years later, most of them do.  :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on October 27, 2008, 05:48:44 pm
Ah, the magic of age. I admit, I want kids, but not for at least 5 years!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: charmed on October 27, 2008, 05:49:59 pm
Getting off-topic people!! Somewhere in chat we have a thread about childen and whether or not to have them. Feel free to continue your discussion in there. :)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on October 27, 2008, 05:55:38 pm
Sorry.  ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Ellyll on October 27, 2008, 05:56:30 pm
Yes'm.  Sorry about that.  :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: charmed on October 27, 2008, 05:57:48 pm
I swear, herding cats is easier than keeping people on-topic. ;D ;D


Now, where were we? :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on October 27, 2008, 05:58:33 pm
Discussing the reason leah is being bitter about infertility because she was force changed I believe.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: charmed on October 27, 2008, 06:01:02 pm
Ah, but does Patty specifically says that is why Leah is bitter? I believe that she has Mecy assuming that motive for Leah, but it's not as if Leah is going to share that with her. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: rox_squirrel on October 27, 2008, 06:11:15 pm
i don't think Leah likes sharing anything with anybody, which is part of the reason she hates Omegas.
Omegas encourage people to be share personal stuff with them just by being omegas
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Zealith on October 27, 2008, 06:29:51 pm
True true. I think it is more a combination of many things, not the least of which is her mate doesn't love her. And if she is older than a 100 years or so, having children is probably very important to her.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on October 30, 2008, 01:48:47 pm
Bran did think Leah was "so selfish and stupid he was certain he could never really love her." (CW 293)  It would be hard on any woman to know that her mate not only despises her, but that everyone else knows it too.  It would be humiliating every single day.

On the topic of bitterness over infertility, I wonder how many of the females were turned involuntarily.  If they chose to turn, I would think that they would've had their children already or not wanted any.

~Linnea
I'm not sure we should assume that the pack understands Bran's true feelings about Leah.  We were invited into his inner dialog, but I suspect that even his sons don't fully realize why he is with Leah.

Ah, but does Patty specifically says that is why Leah is bitter? I believe that she has Mercy assuming that motive for Leah, but it's not as if Leah is going to share that with her. 

 I agree. I think Mercy makes that assumption because it explains Leah's ferocity towards her- even when Mercy was too young to really defend herself socially and physically.
 I think that part of Leah's reaction to Anna as a Omega has a lot of similarity to why she doesn't like Mercy.  Both Anna and Mercy are special in ways Leah can not compete with ( as opposed to being beautiful or popular) and well liked by Bran and his sons which could give them an elevated status in the community.

 I don't think Leah wants to compete with anyone in popularity or female status. I suspect she agreed to be with Bran because he provided status and power even though she knew he didn't love her ;)  But that's just my assumptions based on her description as selfish, stupid, manipulative and vindictive.  I don't have a lot of sympathy  ::)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: charmed on October 30, 2008, 02:27:29 pm
Bran did think Leah was "so selfish and stupid he was certain he could never really love her." (CW 293)  It would be hard on any woman to know that her mate not only despises her, but that everyone else knows it too.  It would be humiliating every single day.

On the topic of bitterness over infertility, I wonder how many of the females were turned involuntarily.  If they chose to turn, I would think that they would've had their children already or not wanted any.

~Linnea
I'm not sure we should assume that the pack understands Bran's true feelings about Leah.  We were invited into his inner dialog, but I suspect that even his sons don't fully realize why he is with Leah.

Actually, Bran says in Cry Wolf that his sons never understood his mating or his marriage to Leah, and Sam says, I forget on which book, that he doesn't understand it.

Quote
Ah, but does Patty specifically says that is why Leah is bitter? I believe that she has Mercy assuming that motive for Leah, but it's not as if Leah is going to share that with her. 

 I agree. I think Mercy makes that assumption because it explains Leah's ferocity towards her- even when Mercy was too young to really defend herself socially and physically.
 I think that part of Leah's reaction to Anna as a Omega has a lot of similarity to why she doesn't like Mercy.  Both Anna and Mercy are special in ways Leah can not compete with ( as opposed to being beautiful or popular) and well liked by Bran and his sons which could give them an elevated status in the community.

 I don't think Leah wants to compete with anyone in popularity or female status. I suspect she agreed to be with Bran because he provided status and power even though she knew he didn't love her ;)  But that's just my assumptions based on her description as selfish, stupid, manipulative and vindictive.  I don't have a lot of sympathy  ::)

I'm with you on that Glow :P :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Winkonce on October 30, 2008, 02:41:38 pm
I think it is simply the old green eyed monster rearing its ugly head. In all honesty wouldn't any woman be jealous if the man that you love shows you no true affection and always turns to someone else to confide in? Wouldnt it hurt you to know and sense that he has true affection for another even though it maybe a child or someone they feel parental towards? She may very well have known going in that he wanted her only for mating purposes and I think that is covered in CW when he says he chose her only because she "stupid and selfish" she was someone he would not worry about losing his heart to like his first wife.
I think you can assume that she does love him - when he came home she was sleeping in his bed on his side wrapped around a pillow. Sounds like someone in love to me. I bet it tears her up every time he confides or shows true affection for someone else.
I don't think that the pack knows his true motives for marrying her .. wouldn't that in some way degrade her and open her up to people not respecting her authority? I dont think Bran would intentionally disrespect her like that .. in CW they mention that Charles is ready for another lecture on showing her respect from his father. (something to that effect).
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on November 09, 2008, 05:16:15 pm
I think it is simply the old green eyed monster rearing its ugly head. In all honesty wouldn't any woman be jealous if the man that you love shows you no true affection and always turns to someone else to confide in? Wouldnt it hurt you to know and sense that he has true affection for another even though it maybe a child or someone they feel parental towards? She may very well have known going in that he wanted her only for mating purposes and I think that is covered in CW when he says he chose her only because she "stupid and selfish" she was someone he would not worry about losing his heart to like his first wife.
I think you can assume that she does love him - when he came home she was sleeping in his bed on his side wrapped around a pillow. Sounds like someone in love to me. I bet it tears her up every time he confides or shows true affection for someone else.
I don't think that the pack knows his true motives for marrying her .. wouldn't that in some way degrade her and open her up to people not respecting her authority? I dont think Bran would intentionally disrespect her like that .. in CW they mention that Charles is ready for another lecture on showing her respect from his father. (something to that effect).

Bran walks a fine line with Charles.  Its okay to knock Charles down for disrespecting his wife.  As a matter of principle Bran CANNOT allow that and Charles understands and even respects the absolute need for the Marrock's mate to be respected.  But if the day comes that Leah attacks Charles mate in an unacceptable manner, even if its in a non-physical manner, Charles might no longer be willing to hold his tongue.  And then Bran and Charles could be put in an impossible situation.  And even if neither were killed, likely after the confruntation Charles would leave the pack.  And that would weaken the Marrock of America and his pack of misfits.


The Deposed king
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Ellyll on November 09, 2008, 05:20:14 pm
That's an interesting point, but it leaves out Anna.  I don't think you should underestimate her ability to handle Leah herself, or Charles's awareness of that ability. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: rox_squirrel on November 09, 2008, 06:19:56 pm
for some reason i think Bran would take Charles side against Leah though if push came to shove.  i think Bran might also side with Anna depending on the circumstances.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on November 10, 2008, 08:12:34 am
Also another thing to remember is that Anna is an Omega so that will effect Leah. I very much doubt can attack Anna if she wants to - she was afraid of the power an Omega has because its confronting her own weaknesses and fears, and unlike Asil who calmed down in Anna's presence Leah ran away. This suggests to me she wants to feel that bitterness and resentment and doesnt want to let go perhaps this isnt a true mating she has with Bran.

I know Bran said that acceptence and trust is the important factors in a mating and it looks like Leah has some feelings for him but Bran wont allow himself to love her and I dont think he can. He may feel tenderness but I dont think he can fall in love with someone who is resentful and bitter- and she was also stupid and selfish to begin with as well- Leah doesnt see that as a weakeness. Another thing I dont think Leah knows the full truth about the Berserker in Bran - if she knew about that I dont think she can fully accept Bran and perhaps that might create more tensions between them.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: gryphon340 on November 10, 2008, 12:42:59 pm
Leah is the cage for the bresker, god help us if she ever figures that out. She  will screw everybody over 'cause that petty.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on November 10, 2008, 12:46:07 pm
And that would be a very scary thing wouldnt it? This would be the one thing that she would be able to control Bran with- so I definitely think she doesnt know nothing about it.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on November 10, 2008, 12:58:35 pm
And that would be a very scary thing wouldnt it? This would be the one thing that she would be able to control Bran with- so I definitely think she doesnt know nothing about it.

Has, I KNOW you're college educated; I'm going to whack your bum for that double negative!

Yes, that would be a good secret to keep from Leah.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: gryphon340 on November 10, 2008, 12:59:50 pm
patti she might enjoy the bum whacking ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: nottled on November 10, 2008, 01:00:23 pm
Patti, despite education we still have to keep our street cred!!!  ::)LOL Bet the nothing was 'nuffink' too, eh Has??? ;) :D Keep it real, Yo!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on November 10, 2008, 01:01:53 pm
Innit Nottled  ;D

Patti- But in my defence  I had something else on my mind when I posted that lol I just read a funny article about towns named after a certain appendage :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: nottled on November 10, 2008, 01:04:08 pm
Innit Nottled  ;D
:D :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on November 10, 2008, 01:08:23 pm
Yes, I saw that, child.
Let's get back on subject.  Selfish or not, how much do you think Leah really loves Bran? 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: gryphon340 on November 10, 2008, 01:10:40 pm
loves the sex and the power, don't if she love than man. The no doudt about it the wolves are mated/ in love.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on November 10, 2008, 01:22:02 pm
I think she does in her own way But I agree about the wolves being mated- the human halves certainly are not. But if she knew the full truth about the berserker in him I dont think its enough. Also her bitterness towards his sons, Mercy and I bet his wife because she feels she cant live up to her memory makes me think she cant ever fully except someone either.
She resents them because they have Bran's love and trust something she hasnt fully got but its stupid and selfish in all that time to hold them responsible for something that its not their fault Bran has withheld himself from her.

She likes the perks and the stature of being his mate but I dont think she knows his real self and even though she may want to get close to him. I think if she knew the truth I doubt she would be able to accept him. I seriously think that Bran and Leah arent fully mated- despite what Bran says about trust and acceptance he doesnt fully trust Leah or even accept her for what she is and so does she.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ArtAngel on November 10, 2008, 02:48:16 pm
I think if she knew the truth I doubt she would be able to accept him. I

Hmmm. I don't know. If she knew I could see her going on a power trip about "taming the beast". Which would be why she doesn't know. To brag about it she would have to tell people and Bran cannot let that happen.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Snoopy on November 10, 2008, 02:55:08 pm
I seriously think that Bran and Leah arent fully mated- ...
But Leah does have that alpha-magic thing going, that Anna feels when Leah visits her in Charle's home. So I assume the mating was fully/properly done, or that wouldn't work, because Leah herself isn't that dominant.
Or maybe she is. But didn't that magic smell of pack and Bran?? I'd have to look it up again to be sure...
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on November 10, 2008, 03:15:39 pm
I think their wolves are - that is the part that counts - and both Bran and Leah have agreed to the mating as well. But there isnt any real love between them, in some ways its like their wolves have married but their human sides havent really. Just like how a werewolf can be married to someone but the wolf isnt mated- like Adam and his ex.

I think Leah has the power that she shares with Bran but he doesnt respect her and I dont think she can be on an equal footing with him because of that. A healthy relationship has to be about meeting halfway and being equal even though one partner is stronger or more powerful - because there is no respect or trust because Bran doesnt confide in Leah to me it feels like their mating is doomed. And things may come to  a head sooner or later.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Snoopy on November 10, 2008, 11:22:51 pm
Okay, I see what you mean, and I agree. Something like this has to escalate sooner or later.

I thought you meant they hadn't done the mating ritual completely/properly.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Grandpappy Wycked on November 11, 2008, 06:00:01 am
I think Leah is very much in love with Bran. Obsessively so. To the point that she is extremely bitter over the fact that she can't have him all to herself. He comes to her with 2 children and keeps taking in strays as if they are his children, yet she can not give him children of their own. She has to share him with the entire pack, which means she is sharing him with the women of the pack as well as the men. An obsessively in love woman will constantly be thinking he is unfaithful with the rest of the women in the pack. Then you add in that Mercy is brought to them as a stray. Mercy is a rebel and makes constant mischief that takes Bran's attention to keep in check. Mercy has it appears litterally become a daughter to Bran, yet another child that is not of Leah's making, and yet another female that has Bran's attention, an attention that isn't just Alpha to a pack mate, but attention that is very Father/Daughterish. Even though Mercy was raised in another household, Bran's attention is very strong on her. With Leah fighting these feelings for as long as she has, it would seriously undermine her own sanity. She is every inch the Green Eyed Monster. Everything else would just make that condition worse, adding to her instability and her constant anger towards anything that has Bran's attention. Much of this insight comes from personal experience.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: OTenshi on November 11, 2008, 04:28:12 pm
I don't think she really loves him, if she did she might make more of an attempt to get along with his sons.  I think she's in love with the power he represents, the possition being his mate gives her.  From what I've read (hence the potential for me being DRASTICALLY wrong) I don't think she's ever made any attempt at caring for Bran as himself and not the power he represents, or even made any attempt to even make friends with his sons.  I think she went from being a stranger to being his mate and resenting anyone that had more influence over him than she did.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: caerali on November 11, 2008, 05:13:18 pm
I really liked Wyckedflesh's insight on Bran.  I hadn't thought about it from that point of view, bravo!

I don't believe she truely knows his berzerker nature, though she's probably heard rumors.  Rumors in the human world probably travel the same way in warewolf circles.  Some of it's true, some of it's not, and the rest is twisted over time.  She probably takes partial credit for taming him, but she's not stupid enough to dwell on it.  I also agree she's jealous of the attention he pays to anyone that isn't her.  Why have the most dominant mate in North America to show off, if he's hardly around to show off.

Trying to fight the memory of a lost love is eating at her.  He keeps his attentions divided betwen his children and his extended family (pack).  That's a lot for one person, human or warewolf.  He knows he's using her, but he's a smart enough man to know how to keep what he has.  He needs her and she knows he needs her.  It's not correct, but it's functional.
Title: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: wolverine on November 11, 2008, 08:14:05 pm
i just finished iron kissed.  Just wanted to say I loved it...and im not usually one to tell authors what to write due to the fact they don;t have to listen.  there has to be a woman for samuel  we cant leave him alone ack...its breaking my heart

Edited for Subject change. Elle.
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: nottled on November 11, 2008, 08:14:44 pm
Oooooo...oooooo, pick me, pick me!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: wolverine on November 11, 2008, 08:21:55 pm
get in line sister ;D
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: charmed on November 11, 2008, 08:22:40 pm
Just push her aside on your way back to the topic :D
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: nottled on November 11, 2008, 08:27:52 pm
Hey! No shoving! Wolverine, I once told Patty in chat that I wanted to come live in her head. She said that her head was way too chaotic for me to live in. I told her that she wouldn't even notice as I'd be wrapped around Sam like a howler monkey!!! :D :D :D

And now back to your regularly scheduled program. ;D
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: OTenshi on November 11, 2008, 09:56:54 pm
"...like a howler monkey."

Oh my, Nottled, dear, that had me laughing fit to cry!  I don't think any of the straight ladies on the board wouldn't give Sam some time if he wanted it.
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 08:49:10 am
excuse my typing for thoseof you who dont know my keyboard is screwed up.  sometimes it works great, other times, not so great.

hell if i had to pick one of the wolves, my pick would be charles however...they pretty much all make me swoon.  for hunting ground i would like to see the fae, the vamps and the weres all come together to take on the evil humans....sounds kinda like self loathing huh. Anyway of course in the process there has to be some unmated female for Sam. what if the weres were driven to make more weres from humans wanting to help them.   im not really creative.....but I just know what i want...and that is a happy ending ack   ive been readingg my romance novels too long. lol
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: Has on November 12, 2008, 08:52:03 am
Wolverine - I think most of us here are romantics at heart :D

But I think with Sam he needs to heal or learn what he really needs- I agree he needs a mate but I think it has to be someone who is a touchstone rather than just be able to have children. I think Mercy is one but I think over time it might not be enough.

Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 08:58:22 am
Wolverine - I think most of us here are romantics at heart :D

But I think with Sam he needs to heal or learn what he really needs- I agree he needs a mate but I think it has to be someone who is a touchstone rather than just be able to have children. I think Mercy is one but I think over time it might not be enough.



yes you do have a point however sam doesnt want to be pack...he cant find his touchstone all alone....somethhing has to give.  Also, in IK mercy said that in coyote form, she knows Sam is not well.....that comment is freaking me out.  i dont know if i can handle losing sam ACK
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: Has on November 12, 2008, 09:19:28 am
I feel the same way but I think Sam is a survivor and I hope that he will pull through this funk :(
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: rox_squirrel on November 12, 2008, 10:04:57 am
i really really really hope Sam pulls through.   :'(
he's an awesome guy and deserves happiness.  hopefully Mercy as his pack will help
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: charmed on November 12, 2008, 03:17:10 pm
"...like a howler monkey."

Oh my, Nottled, dear, that had me laughing fit to cry!  I don't think any of the straight ladies on the board wouldn't give Sam some time if he wanted it.

too true, too true


(howler monkey - hee hee)
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: Elle on November 12, 2008, 06:21:05 pm
I think we need a Sam thread for the fans. He seems to have taken over the thread. ;)
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 06:21:43 pm
Sam is on my Christmas list...

well, I hope you have been a good girl this year lol
Title: Re: Hunting Ground Speculation
Post by: Patti L. on November 12, 2008, 06:24:25 pm
This could get confusing, what with Sam the bartender too.
Title: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Elle on November 12, 2008, 06:25:35 pm
All Sam. All the Time.  :D

Merging all his threads and comments from other threads here. Elle.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Patti L. on November 12, 2008, 06:34:49 pm
Great idea, & modding, Elle, thank you!
I do wonder if Sam filks as well as folks.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 06:46:17 pm
All Sam. All the Time.  :D

Merging all his threads and comments from other threads here. Elle.

that line made me crack up...this way ot but i work with a guy who couldnt be farther from a dominant male werewolf and he uses that saying.  he is, all man...all the time.  I quickly made a mental comparison of Sam, my fictional male and this one in real life....and....i would still choose sammie   lolol although i thin patty wants us to think sam is not as attractive as charles or adam...he is just so.....hot. sam gives me the hives, yikes.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Elle on November 12, 2008, 06:57:48 pm
I never got the impression that he wasn't as attractive. He has his own charm and if I didn't love Adam so much...but I do...sorry Samuel! You're a hotty but not for our Mercy. ;) I will be absolutely fascinated to see who our Doctor will be attracted to in the coming books though.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 07:03:11 pm
me too Elle,  Charles is my main man but if I had to choose between Adam and Samuel like Mercy had to, I dont know what I would do.  
cant wait to see what is in store for all of our little packs  
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Has on November 12, 2008, 07:07:26 pm
I think when he meets his dream woman - it would probably be someone who he least expects. She also needs to hold herself up to him and she has to challenge him to get his fighting spirit back. I think thats why he is sticking with Mercy because she is his touchstone.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: OTenshi on November 12, 2008, 07:10:06 pm
I agree, that little comment about "Our Mercy, who never forgives when she can get even?" makes me think that that's half the attraction for him.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 07:16:16 pm
but mercy and sam already concluded that she was his pack and she is going with adam.  what I think needs to happen is, in hunting ground, we can assume some nasty stuff is going to go down...so of course, we are going to have injured werewolves coming in the picture. most certainly there will be some female who will ending up needed a physician...for herself, for a pack member...for a brother or somethi ng----mercy is  NOT the only female around its not like sam is desperate...hes hot..hot..hot
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Elle on November 12, 2008, 07:19:54 pm
I don't think we'll see Sam in Hunting Ground. It takes place before the events of Blood Bound occur...I think after Bone Crossed he may meet someone...but he's still healing so there's no rush. I think a Samuel at 100% is quite the force to be reckoned with.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 07:25:00 pm
elle,

I dontnt mean to argue as im sure you have followed these characters longer than me. But, the conversation in the car in iron kissed after mercy and sam have left the bar their conversation let me to belive that as mercy said, sam had come to a conclusion that he loved her because she was his pack--and that he wanted to tease and all that but he didnt really want her or he and adam would have already come to blows. 
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Elle on November 12, 2008, 07:32:39 pm
Hmmm...now I'm confused.  ;)

Hunting Ground is the next Alpha/Omega book. Charles and Anna. Sam will be in the Tri-Cities by then with Mercy. I don't think Sam will be in that book...the next Alpha/Omega one maybe, but not this one.

I agree with your Iron Kissed comment, but I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me about.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 07:40:17 pm
Hmmm...now I'm confused.  ;)

Hunting Ground is the next Alpha/Omega book. Charles and Anna. Sam will be in the Tri-Cities by then with Mercy. I don't think Sam will be in that book...the next Alpha/Omega one maybe, but not this one.

I agree with your Iron Kissed comment, but I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with me about.
hh
im sorry i should have prefaced with your comment.  i was responding to your comment regarding samuel still healing.  I get confused about the timetable so please bear with me on that too.  i read cry wolf first and I think it got me a little off LOLOLOL
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Elle on November 12, 2008, 07:50:34 pm
Okay, I see what you're saying. :)

I do think he's still in the process of healing his battered soul. Mercy being his pack is definitely a stepping stone but I do think he has a while to go before he's complete, there are literally centuries of damage there. I don't think he's suicidal anymore though.

Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Ellyll on November 12, 2008, 07:56:36 pm
I think you're right, Elle, but I also think things could change.  He's too dependent on Mercy right now for stability, and if she mates with Adam, then she's part of his pack, not Sam's.  And then what happens? 

I'm really looking forward to finding out.  :D
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 12, 2008, 08:05:39 pm
well one thing for sure, he wouldnt make a very good mate at this point. I mean we know when he is ready, he will.  IT would be sacreligious to say something that negative about samuel lol 
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: mtomni on November 12, 2008, 08:49:58 pm
Um......maybe Anna would be able to help Sam heal.  She's not in the Tri-Cities, but maybe if he came to visit?
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: OTenshi on November 13, 2008, 03:03:28 pm
I think that this is something he'd have to deal with on his own, or with more personal help (like a mate), after all he's almost as old as Bran. After a thousand years there's only going to be so much any kind of therapist can do for him that he can't do for himself, even an omega.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 13, 2008, 03:48:17 pm
well, he is almost as old as Bran....but look at Bran. so it has to be somethng more than age.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Ellyll on November 13, 2008, 06:28:03 pm
Of course it does.  He has a hole in his heart.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 13, 2008, 06:33:56 pm
I dont think that hole is due to mercy.  I thiink Sam loves her as his pack and I think they have a inseperable bond.  I think whatever is eating him was present before mercy came back to montana with adam.  perhaps it is guilt that hasnt fully been dealt with yet. 
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Ellyll on November 13, 2008, 06:34:56 pm
I never said it had anything to do with Mercy.  I just think it's there.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wolverine on November 13, 2008, 06:44:44 pm
I never said it had anything to do with Mercy.  I just think it's there.

you have any ideas on what might have put it there.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Ellyll on November 13, 2008, 07:40:01 pm
Not really.  Texas obviously had something to do with it, but I don't think that was the root cause.  I think it just made it all unbearable.

'Course, I'm just guessing wildly here.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Elle on November 13, 2008, 09:57:28 pm
He's had a difficult time establishing a family other than his father and brother. From his ID card:

Wives and Children: First wife died of cholera, his second of old age. His third wife died in childbirth. His wives miscarried eighteen children between them; a handful died in infancy, and only eight lived to their third birthday. One died of old age, four of the plague, three of failing the Change. He has no living children and only one, born before Samuel Changed, made it into adulthood.pg99-MC
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: jenglows on November 29, 2008, 03:27:14 pm
Samuel is my favorite. Tortured soul and all ;)  I really hope that he stays visible in both series and finds some happiness along the way.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Carradee on December 04, 2008, 08:41:56 am
I believe that yes, Leah loves Bran, and that's the problem.  In Cry Wolf it mentions that Leah is hurt when Bran wakes up from his nightmare and immediately confides in his son Samuel, who's a state away, and not his wife who's in bed with him.  Why would Leah be hurt by his lack of confidence if she didn't love Bran?

And Bran thinks in Cry Wolf that he'd spent the time to find Leah for her selfishness and pettiness, because he was sure he never could love her.  And whenever he starts having affectionate feelings, he shoves them away.  Bran is terrified of his berserker, so he reacts in an extreme to make sure the berserker can't come out of his cage.  My impression from Cry Wolf is that he was the source for the legend of Grendel, and Samuel might've been Beowulf.  And the berserker might actually be Bran's wolf, driven mad from the years enslaved to the black witch.

(I also wonder if the Lord of Night and his werewolf mistress might have something to do with Romeo and Juliet, but that's mere speculation.)

Leah has no control over her mating or her husband.  As much as she wants him to, he doesn't love her.  Remember that ramble Leah has when she first meets Anna in Cry Wolf?  That was how Leah really feels--in competition with a memory, the memory of Blue Jay Woman, who EVERYONE knows he loved, so he's capable of loving, but everyone also knows he does NOT love her.  (Remember Sage's reaction to Leah?  Kind of humored and disinclined to take her seriously?  That has to bite.)

My impression is that Leah acts with such petty control over the pack members because it's the only thing she CAN control.  She also must be very well protected; Bran would not dare risk his safeguard against his berserker, not when she's the only thing that he can trust to keep him in control when something happens to one of his sons.  Samuel's tired of living, suicidal.  Bran has to fear that one of these days he'll wake up to the knowledge that his son and companion for over a millenium has died.

I could see Leah, if anyone ever bothered to contact her with a problem instead of Bran, going to do it herself, quietly, to prove to Bran that she's capable, too.

Of course, who would dare call her?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 04, 2008, 10:02:49 am
Anna?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Carradee on December 04, 2008, 11:32:43 am
Quote from: Carradee
Of course, who would dare call [Leah instead of her husband]?

Anna?

That's what I was thinking, but that would require Anna to think to do so.  And with how Leah, after all this time and practice of acting like a--erm, you know--automatically reacted to Anna, I suspect Anna would rather call Bran for help than Leah.

...Unless there was something like, say, Charles was captured, and the captors were trying to get Bran, so Anna called Leah for help so Bran wouldn't get himself caught, too...   Hm...

(C'mon.  I can't be the only one to have realized that Charles would likely be very susceptible to those special tranqs in MC.)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 04, 2008, 01:08:10 pm
Or, it could be something either smaller &/or while Bran is elsewhere, and her Omega thing (protect. . . ) prods her to go to Leah with it.  If it could heal the woman?  Or start to?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on December 04, 2008, 01:29:35 pm
See I dont know - I think Leah's wolf definitely is devoted to Bran but the way she has resented Charles and Samuel just makes me think her human side isnt that redeemable. Yep she may be resentful and Bran should feel guilty because he is using her harshly on that end but he is in a way misusing the bond for his own needs. I wonder what would happen if either Leah or Bran would meet someone else and they find that they are attracted to them or even have strong feelings. It can happen and unlike with other matings their human sides have accepted each other but there isnt any real feelings between them and if there is I think resentment and distrust and lack of trust will be hard to get over even if they wanted it to make it work.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Vanish on December 14, 2008, 08:01:24 pm
My impression from Cry Wolf is that he was the source for the legend of Grendel, and Samuel might've been Beowulf.  And the berserker might actually be Bran's wolf, driven mad from the years enslaved to the black witch.

If you have read Cry Wolf, it tells you what the berserker is... you just have to "listened" very carefully

See I dont know - I think Leah's wolf definitely is devoted to Bran but the way she has resented Charles and Samuel just makes me think her human side isnt that redeemable. Yep she may be resentful and Bran should feel guilty because he is using her harshly on that end but he is in a way misusing the bond for his own needs. I wonder what would happen if either Leah or Bran would meet someone else and they find that they are attracted to them or even have strong feelings. It can happen and unlike with other matings their human sides have accepted each other but there isnt any real feelings between them and if there is I think resentment and distrust and lack of trust will be hard to get over even if they wanted it to make it work.


If you read the book carefull he is not misusing the bond. Just because there is no love doesnt mean its not a true bond... right? isnt that what Patricia was saying in the part of the book. If I remeber correctly you only need trust and acceptence to make the bond happen... LOVE is just a bonus. He has found that the bond helps with the beast inside. I am guessing (and I think its mentioned in the book) that his beast almost surrfeced after her death and only the bond to Leah helped keep control. He couldnt afford that kind of bond again so he found some one he could trust and accept with out loving making his wolf and the bond happy.

She resents her stepsons for the council they bring their father. Instead of him going to her he reachs for his sons. If she did not care for him or love him I think that she would not feel the way she does or even do what she did in Cry Wolf when he came home that night after the ordeal. I think that right there proves her love and in a way his true acceptance for her as well. Even though he pushes away the feelings they are still there.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 14, 2008, 08:19:06 pm
It's definitely a muddle, isn't it?  You're reading closely, Vanish; you're surely a true Hurog, welcome!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on December 14, 2008, 08:46:01 pm
If you read the book carefull he is not misusing the bond. Just because there is no love doesnt mean its not a true bond... right? isnt that what Patricia was saying in the part of the book. If I remeber correctly you only need trust and acceptence to make the bond happen... LOVE is just a bonus. He has found that the bond helps with the beast inside. I am guessing (and I think its mentioned in the book) that his beast almost surrfeced after her death and only the bond to Leah helped keep control. He couldnt afford that kind of bond again so he found some one he could trust and accept with out loving making his wolf and the bond happy.

She resents her stepsons for the council they bring their father. Instead of him going to her he reachs for his sons. If she did not care for him or love him I think that she would not feel the way she does or even do what she did in Cry Wolf when he came home that night after the ordeal. I think that right there proves her love and in a way his true acceptance for her as well. Even though he pushes away the feelings they are still there.


 I don't think his mating bond with Leah helps him control the bezerker.  I think it keeps him and his wolf content not to look for another True Love.  It's his heartbreak from the ending of a true love that pushed him to the border of insanity most recently and I think that is what he fears most.  Losing love.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Elle on December 14, 2008, 09:13:24 pm
What I find intriguing about Bran is that rather than being the strongest of all the werewolves...he's probably the most damaged. Which was a twist that I was not expecting. Kudos to Patty for that one!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on December 15, 2008, 09:34:37 am
Absolutely, although Sam has some serious baggage too.  That might just be an aspect of their age, more lifetimes to build regret and have meaningful experiences.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Tambayo on December 15, 2008, 09:39:26 am
I don't think his mating bond with Leah helps him control the bezerker.  I think it keeps him and his wolf content not to look for another True Love.  It's his heartbreak from the ending of a true love that pushed him to the border of insanity most recently and I think that is what he fears most.  Losing love.
If you read the part when Bran returns home, you will see that he uses the mating bond to cage/absorb the overflow of the bersekerpart of him.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Louve_des_bois on December 15, 2008, 11:22:12 pm
...he's probably the most damaged. Which was a twist that I was not expecting. Kudos to Patty for that one!
Oh yes!  ;D

Freud would love it, killing and eating his Mother, that must damage someone ...  ;)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on December 17, 2008, 11:18:41 pm
I don't think his mating bond with Leah helps him control the bezerker.  I think it keeps him and his wolf content not to look for another True Love.  It's his heartbreak from the ending of a true love that pushed him to the border of insanity most recently and I think that is what he fears most.  Losing love.
If you read the part when Bran returns home, you will see that he uses the mating bond to cage/absorb the overflow of the bersekerpart of him.
Right,  I guess what I meant was more that I think his mating bond with Leah is to protect himself and his pack and not a form of  love( which true acceptance is a form of Love).   I don't think Leah's behavior is in any way a sign of love. she is insecure, definitely jealous of his attention towards others (among other things) and I'm sure her wolf craves contact with him but I don't think that is love. Perhaps possession or infatuation....
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on December 20, 2008, 08:33:28 pm
I don't think his mating bond with Leah helps him control the bezerker.  I think it keeps him and his wolf content not to look for another True Love.  It's his heartbreak from the ending of a true love that pushed him to the border of insanity most recently and I think that is what he fears most.  Losing love.
If you read the part when Bran returns home, you will see that he uses the mating bond to cage/absorb the overflow of the bersekerpart of him.
Right,  I guess what I meant was more that I think his mating bond with Leah is to protect himself and his pack and not a form of  love( which true acceptance is a form of Love).   I don't think Leah's behavior is in any way a sign of love. she is insecure, definitely jealous of his attention towards others (among other things) and I'm sure her wolf craves contact with him but I don't think that is love. Perhaps possession or infatuation....


I think she's a person like any person.  But in this case she is a person who who has the inclination to be petty, mean and spiteful when crossed.  I think she would be willing to have a more fully loving relationship of both their human sides.  I think in her own way she has tried in the past and been deftly rebuffed and rejected.  She's outclassed in the social/mental game when playing with Bran.  And as a person who has inclinations to be petty and spiteful I think her ways of reaching out to him have withered and mostly died.  Now when she tries to reach him she does it in unhealthy ways.

Also I think she's fallen back on the worst of feminine behaviors, and at times spitefully campaigns for Brans affections by toying as much as she can with those she sees as having a more genuine relationship with him than hers.  Mercy and his sons.  People who have the love of his human side, which she cannot.

Basically he's got a mate with petty tendancies, tendancies which he has somewhat steered her towards as a defense against her finding a way into his heart.  If she were a perfect long suffering woman who mated with him out of caring for him and the pack, he would never be able to stop his heart from slowly going out to her.  But by finding a person inclined to be petty and by pushing her in that direction by denying her true affection and turning to others he's found someone he can be safe in staying around and not falling in love with.

But I fear that the Omega might begin to ruin all his careful plans.  And for all that he is an Alpha who's presumably known omega's before.  Bran is still the alpha of alpha's with all the preset mindset that comes with it.  Even if mentally he knows what kind of influence she might have in unconsciously or otherwise trying to mend the unhealthy relationship of the Pack Alpha pair, I doubt he's emotionally prepared to be on the receiving end of his own pack's magic as wielded by the Omega against the emotionally scarred shield he's risen against too much caring for his mate.

Bran is used to wielding pack magic as the alpha.  Witches have used something similar to pack magic on him.  But its been a long time if ever since a member of his pack, an omega with all that entails at that, has used the magic of the pack on him.

I forsee our newest omega coming to a decision point in whether or not its in the best interest of hte pack to try and use her powers on teh alpha pair.



The deposed King

The Deposed King




Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ArtAngel on December 20, 2008, 10:10:11 pm


 But its been a long time if ever since a member of his pack, an omega with all that entails at that, has used the magic of the pack on him.

I forsee our newest omega coming to a decision point in whether or not its in the best interest of hte pack to try and use her powers on teh alpha pair.



The deposed King

The Deposed King


Now that would be interesting to see! I can see Anna having more effect on Bran not just because she is an Omega but also because she is his daughter-in-law!
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 20, 2008, 10:13:43 pm
And between the pack bond and the mate bond, Leah.

Hey- sudden thought!  What form do you suppose their mate bond takes?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ArtAngel on December 20, 2008, 10:17:20 pm
Charles and Anna's or Bran and Leah's?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 20, 2008, 10:22:07 pm
Bran & Leah, this is their thread.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ArtAngel on December 20, 2008, 10:33:04 pm
(blushing madly, trying not to look like a ditzy blond :D)

But didn't you say somewhere you are the queen of hijacking threads? ;)

Hey- sudden thought!  What form do you suppose their mate bond takes?

that is a good question though. I'll have to see if we have any hints.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 20, 2008, 10:40:25 pm
*scratches head*  Dunno, but I don't think it was me, I'm thinking Mazoku.

I don't recall any clues on that.  Bran's so closemouthed, and we've seen so little of Leah in person - and I mean in PERSON, not when she was wolf shape and tried to kill Mercy after she brought Adam to Aspen Creek.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ArtAngel on December 20, 2008, 10:45:35 pm
Yeah the only time we see them together is when they are in bed. Either she is sulking or they are busy...shrugs. There does not seem to be any in between so far.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 20, 2008, 10:48:54 pm
Key words, those.  "So far."  Maybe we will get some more views of them in the A&O series.
And that reminds me of a question I'm going to take to that area. *piously glances around for charmed and her axe*
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ArtAngel on December 20, 2008, 10:52:23 pm
*glances around for charmed*

I think we might be safe. Let's call it a slight overlap in topics instead of hijacking ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Elle on December 21, 2008, 09:17:23 am
Hmmm.  ;)
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Elle on December 21, 2008, 11:02:04 pm
A bit of the Cry Wolf bond info:

The bond is almost like pack magic and it varies between couples. Sometimes it's just being able to tell where your mate is...Bran told Charles that's all that he and Leah have.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ArtAngel on December 21, 2008, 11:12:42 pm
Oops! Elle snuck in while we were looking for charmed!

A bit of the Cry Wolf bond info:

The bond is almost like pack magic and it varies between couples. Sometimes it's just being able to tell where your mate is...Bran told Charles that's all that he and Leah have.

Oh perfect! Thanks :D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 22, 2008, 09:41:14 am
But Elle's great!  She's got the facts at her fingertips, and hardly ever wrests the axe from charmed!
Although she does "Hmm" and "Ahem" quite sternly

I wonder; if Bran & Leah did open up to each other, would they have more with their bond?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Litwolf on December 22, 2008, 06:22:07 pm
Wow, I just read this whole thread. A lot of good insight into their relationship.

A question: We're not quite sure what happened to Samuel's mother or if Bran really loved her or not. But he went for a time without a mate before finding Blue Jay Woman. After she died in Charles' birth, we're fairly certain he went for a period of time without a mate bond. We're not sure how long but Im sure it took him a while to meet a female his wolf decided was going to be their mate.

If Leah would to die, do you think his mating bond ending a second time would send him into beserker mode, or do you think he could control himself? Do you think he would find a new mate quickly because he needs the bond or would he wait?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 22, 2008, 06:31:56 pm
If there wasn't another huge traumatic event taking Leah, I think he'd cope pretty well, to be honest.  If he lost a lot of other wolves, or one (a son) special one, that might do it. 

As for how soon he'd find a new mate, some of the same issues apply.
I believe the werewolves are in a period of intense flux, and that Bran, with or without prompting from his Brother Wolf, would want to have that potential anchor at hand, so he might pick someone he & his wolf could live with pretty quickly.
Just my guess.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Avarel on December 22, 2008, 06:41:08 pm
If Samuel was turned at the same time as Bran then she would not have been chosen by his wolf, and bcs of Bran's mother I don't think there was time for retrospective choosing before Sam's mom was dead. This leaves Blue Jay Woman, whom Bran meets some 200 years ago his first mate that we know of.
I'm bad at math and I don't have my books handy, but I think that's like 1,000 years that he didn't have a mate. (I think he says he found out with Blue Jay Woman that the Mate bond took care of his beserker problem, indicating it hadn't happened before that. Cry Wolf, Somewhere?)
In this case it seems that having a mate isn't necessary. Unless Bran wasn't an alpha until he mated with Blue Jay Woman? hmm, didn't think of that.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Patti L. on December 22, 2008, 06:49:08 pm
He might have been married to 100, 200 human women between the break from Samuel's mother and his finding BJW, though.  It just wouldn't have been a full werewolf mating bond situation.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on December 22, 2008, 09:09:09 pm
If Samuel was turned at the same time as Bran then she would not have been chosen by his wolf, and bcs of Bran's mother I don't think there was time for retrospective choosing before Sam's mom was dead. This leaves Blue Jay Woman, whom Bran meets some 200 years ago his first mate that we know of.
I'm bad at math and I don't have my books handy, but I think that's like 1,000 years that he didn't have a mate. (I think he says he found out with Blue Jay Woman that the Mate bond took care of his beserker problem, indicating it hadn't happened before that. Cry Wolf, Somewhere?)
In this case it seems that having a mate isn't necessary. Unless Bran wasn't an alpha until he mated with Blue Jay Woman? hmm, didn't think of that.


So was his berserking solely caused by the Witch controlling him, just like he'd been controlled in the past.  Or was the fact that his mate bond with Leah isn't all it could be, a significant factor?


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: jenglows on December 26, 2008, 09:16:48 pm
So was his berserking solely caused by the Witch controlling him, just like he'd been controlled in the past.  Or was the fact that his mate bond with Leah isn't all it could be, a significant factor?
The Deposed King

 I think it was caused by the witch and didn't have much to do with his mate-bond with Leah.  Expect for the fact that the bond couldn't pull him out of it.

 I think Anna's Omega effect on their matebond will be significant.  I don't think Bran is going to start having romantic feeling for Leah.  I think the trouble will be when Anna gets into the middle of some sort of nasty business that Leah pulls.   Something Leah has directed at Anna because of her jealousy, or Anna defending someone Leah is persecuting ( like she did Mercy).  I understand that Bran defends his mate at all costs,  but what would happen if Charles needed to defend Anna from Leah?  Would Bran try to stop Charles? Would Bran defend Anna from Leah?  Her being a valued Omega And Charles mate?  Anna is the one that helped him control the Berserker too  ;) hmmm....   :)

Or... even more of a limb here.... trouble between Leah and Anna reduces Leah's value in Bran's mind AND then he meets someone else he really clicks with... and Leah become more vicious in her behavior towards others in ways that could endanger the stability of the pack...  interesting...
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Avarel on December 26, 2008, 09:39:40 pm
So was his berserking solely caused by the Witch controlling him, just like he'd been controlled in the past.  Or was the fact that his mate bond with Leah isn't all it could be, a significant factor?

For People who have been tramatized (and I think a 100 year rampage or whatever as a beserker is a symptom of tramatized) things that remind them of the trauma trigger reaction. I think this is PTSD. some things may help with the reaction, or make it worse. unless Bran was mated during his trauma any issues there will be secondary to forgotten as he tries to deal with his problems.

not sure if that made sense...
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: caerali on December 27, 2008, 04:55:31 am
It made me smile when I tried to picture Bran's reaction to someone telling him he suffered from PTSD.   ;D
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Has on December 28, 2008, 07:04:49 pm
So was his berserking solely caused by the Witch controlling him, just like he'd been controlled in the past.  Or was the fact that his mate bond with Leah isn't all it could be, a significant factor?
The Deposed King

 I think it was caused by the witch and didn't have much to do with his mate-bond with Leah.  Expect for the fact that the bond couldn't pull him out of it.

 I think Anna's Omega effect on their matebond will be significant.  I don't think Bran is going to start having romantic feeling for Leah.  I think the trouble will be when Anna gets into the middle of some sort of nasty business that Leah pulls.   Something Leah has directed at Anna because of her jealousy, or Anna defending someone Leah is persecuting ( like she did Mercy).  I understand that Bran defends his mate at all costs,  but what would happen if Charles needed to defend Anna from Leah?  Would Bran try to stop Charles? Would Bran defend Anna from Leah?  Her being a valued Omega And Charles mate?  Anna is the one that helped him control the Berserker too  ;) hmmm....   :)

Or... even more of a limb here.... trouble between Leah and Anna reduces Leah's value in Bran's mind AND then he meets someone else he really clicks with... and Leah become more vicious in her behavior towards others in ways that could endanger the stability of the pack...  interesting...

Glow I think you may be right about that - I think it Bran and Leah will either work things out with the aid of Anna but I doubt thats going to happen. I can see Bran wont be able to put up Leah for long especially if she acts out. He only does it because of the way he treats her- its also interesting to note the mate-bond between them is not like that of other couples and is pretty close. Its more like a pack-bond than a mate-bone. Mercy stated that other pack members knew where each member was and if they died in Moon Called and its strange there isnt anything more to it unless Bran hasnt really mated to Leah because he hasnt fully opened to and neither has she. Its more of a marriage of convenience or inconvenience :D 
And if Bran meets someone new then that would definitely put the cat among the pigeons!
Title: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: danie_SF on February 04, 2009, 04:42:59 pm
Hi, this is my first time posting. I've read the first 3 Mercy Thompson books and I'm really excited about the 4th one. I was wondering if anyone can explain why Leah and the other women of Bran's pack don't like Mercy. Is it because she's a coyote, or is it because of the Sam thing. Any ideas would be helpful.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Zealith on February 04, 2009, 04:49:35 pm
One of the main reasons we (the forum goers) keep circling back to is the fact Mercy can have children and Leah can't. I would recomend reading Alpha & Omega and Cry Wolf, both deal more woth the Morrok's pack and there are more hints on why Leah is the way she is.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: danie_SF on February 04, 2009, 04:55:25 pm
Cool. Thank you, do you think the same reason applies to the other women in Bran's pack?
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Patti L. on February 04, 2009, 05:32:04 pm
It could well be, Danie_SF.  Also, as Mercy comments various places, Wolves (without the 'were' part) don't care for coyotes in their territory, competing for the prey.
Another reason would be from/going with the classic sneer at bad attempts at seduction; "What do you call a wanna be wolf?  A coyote!" or words to that effect.  Coyotes, if they have to, will make do scavenging off wolf or big cat kills, and they're lower on the predator social scale because of it.

Nonetheless, while wolves have been facing extinction in the US & Canada for half a century or more, coyotes have flourished, moving into urban areas. . . 
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Zealith on February 04, 2009, 05:38:31 pm
I think the other women follow Leah's lead, more or less.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: danie_SF on February 04, 2009, 05:49:56 pm
In Cry Wolf, I was under the impression that the other female wolves in Bran's pack kinda hated Leah.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Patti L. on February 04, 2009, 06:06:24 pm
True, I think.  but, besides the things about natural predators, keep that 'alpha mojo' in mind.  There hasn't been so much of it in the Mercy books, but in "Cry Wolf" - and "Alpha and Omega" - there are some really good examples of it; they may not have had any choice.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: ArtAngel on February 05, 2009, 08:41:10 am
You know, after reading this thread I wondered if Sage was around when Mercy was in Montana. I would love to see a scene with both of them in it. I can't see her following Leah's lead so thoroughly or despising Mercy for something she has no control over.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Has on February 05, 2009, 08:43:49 am
I think Sage was relatively a new member of the pack. And Mercy left The Marrok around 15/16 years ago so I dont think they have ever met. But I agree I think they would have got on really well. I hope we get to learn more about Sage in later books.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: ArtAngel on February 05, 2009, 08:47:00 am
Yeah I think she is close to being my favorite of the new characters introduced in CW
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Patti L. on February 06, 2009, 12:03:11 am
Back to topic, please! ;)
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Nifty on February 06, 2009, 06:33:17 am
Maybe Leah's just a...well...just a bitch.  (Can I say that here?)  I mean, I know Mercy has remarked that the other women didn't like her as well.  We haven't really seen evidence of that.  We've seen Leah's behavior toward Mercy, and we've seen some of Leah's behavior toward Anna.  Leah and Mercy seem very different, wolf/coyote differences aside.  Mercy is protective, smart, dominant (but not bossy or belligerent), defiant (without being all chip-on-the-shoulder about it), loyal, decent.  She's not interested in social position, isn't interested in "things."  Leah strikes me as being the opposite.  She strikes me as being petty and manipulative, a social climber -- as much as one can climb socially in Aspen Creek; however, being the Marrok's mate certainly ensures that she's at the top of the social ladder.  She doesn't seem to have Mercy's protective instincts, nor Mercy's bone-deep decency.

I think that we're instinctively drawn to people who seem a bit like ourselves...and repelled by people who are obviously different.  Maybe that's a part of Leah's dislike for Mercy -- they're such obviously different types of people.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Has on February 06, 2009, 07:20:15 am
Also add the fact that Mercy has something that Leah desires- attention and love from Bran.

I think thats why Bran chose Leah because of those traits he cant lose himself like he did with Blue Jay Woman.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: OmegaMarie on February 09, 2009, 09:07:18 am
Also add the fact that Mercy has something that Leah desires- attention and love from Bran.

I think thats why Bran chose Leah because of those traits he cant lose himself like he did with Blue Jay Woman.

Has I have to agree with you completely here.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: danie_SF on February 09, 2009, 01:17:57 pm
I can't wait for Anna and Mercy to meet. Even though they have a lot of differences, I think that they have a lot in common as well, which is why the Cornick men love them so much, Bran included.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: alan on February 09, 2009, 02:09:54 pm
that'll be an interesting meeting
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: danie_SF on February 09, 2009, 02:19:04 pm
Does anyone have any ideas on what happend to Sam in his past to damage him so greatly? I think he was damaged way before Mercy came to Montana and he saw her as a way to end part of his pain, but when she left he kinda lost it for a bit and has never been the same.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Nifty on February 09, 2009, 02:23:01 pm
Danie, I've just gotten the feeling that he's very old and very lonely.  Has it been established for sure how old he is?  I've figured he's a good 1,000 years at least.  And in that time he's lost all of his loved ones except for his father and brother.  He's seen his wives and children die, often painfully.  I think that would be very damaging. 
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Has on February 09, 2009, 02:30:30 pm
And he also needs a touchstone to keep alive- and although Mercy helps sometimes I think thats not enough especially when he goes through a rough patch. With wolves it looks like being mated helps to keep them balanced as well.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Tambayo on February 10, 2009, 12:57:17 pm
Danie, I've just gotten the feeling that he's very old and very lonely.  Has it been established for sure how old he is?  I've figured he's a good 1,000 years at least.  And in that time he's lost all of his loved ones except for his father and brother.  He's seen his wives and children die, often painfully.  I think that would be very damaging. 
Samuel is Bran's oldest son, born before he changed. Given that he had a son before he was changed as wel, there is probably 20 years age difference. On an age of at least 1300 that is not much.
Patty said something about Sam being tired due to too much responsibility from his high place in the pack. Don't know where the exact reference went (was a recent chat, think one of the ones that crashed halfway trough).   
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Avarel on February 10, 2009, 02:01:19 pm
 Bran is Samuel's father, but there is 20-maybe 30 ish years of age difference, and they've been alive for more than a thousand years. I wonder how that effects their relationship.

Especially since Samuel is the one that helped his father get back in control all those years ago (cry wolf somewhere). their relationship might be closer to that of brothers...

Speaking of which, Samuel's relationship to Charles would be more uncle like than brother in some ways.  hmm...
maybe Charles growing up is part of what kicked Samuel over the edge. He's closer in age to his father than his brother.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Roz on February 10, 2009, 06:16:29 pm
My vote is Leah's feelings are primarily a reaction to Bran's obvious affection towards Mercy.
Another interesting thing brought up in this topic is the other women of the packs not liking Mercy. The only reason we know that is because Mercy says it's so. Since this is all from her perspective maybe this is not an acurate observation but the skewed thoughts of a young outcast teenager. I've made the mistake of believing every interpretation to a scenario in the Mercy books until BC where (and I can't remember what was said) Mercy has some reflection time of being sent from Bran's pack. The feel of her musings is that Bran sent her away to remove the trouble (trouble = Mercy) from his pack but getting to know Bran in the Alpha/Omega series, I feel Mercy is wrong and that Bran sent her away to remove trouble from her life. She still doesn't get that Bran had true parental affection for her in her youth (as well as now). I can't help but believe that Mercy just doesn't know better. Perhaps this is the case w/ how other pack members feel about her? Sorry for the convulated thinking. It's an alkeselzher cold medicine night <sniffle>
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Patti L. on February 10, 2009, 08:26:39 pm
Roz, have you read Bone Crossed yet?

I agree with you that we can't believe every interpretation of the past that Mercy produces.  But what else do we have to go on?
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: danie_SF on February 11, 2009, 10:34:43 am
Mercy could have confused her teenage feelings with the reality of the situation. I remember being a teenager and thinking that everyone hated me, maybe Mercy felt the same way.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Morgaine0000 on February 12, 2009, 05:13:49 pm
It seems possible that Charles presence allows him the luxury to let go of some of the duties to his father.  But then he didn't have anything to fill that space with.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Roz on February 16, 2009, 12:09:08 pm
Hey Patti, yep, read Bone Crossed & loved it. That's the book that finally made me start questioning some of Mercy's perceptions/interpretations...and the reoccuring lamb/sheep theme. Also, reading the Alpha/Omega gives more unbiased character descriptions and made me doubt somethings that Mercy has said in the past.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Patti L. on February 16, 2009, 12:34:12 pm
Okay, just want to make sure neither of us commits spoiler to each other or anyone else in the wrong area for it.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Pendle on February 22, 2009, 06:42:01 am
I always got the impression that Leah and the other women don't like Mercy just because, by rights she shouldn't be there, a coyote in a wolf pack is deemed as inferior and that any other Alpha would have killed a coyote in their territory. But with Leah inparticular, Mercy's relationship with Bran isn't going to make them forever friends. A jealousy aspect perhaps?

I also thought that the human women didn't like Mercy either, so it must be more than a children bearing aspect. And who's to say that Mercy can even have a werewolf's child that's not wholly human? It's only a therory.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Tanis143 on February 22, 2009, 08:11:04 pm
Actually, I dont think Leah likes anyone besides herself. Half the time her and Bran sleep in different beds. Leah stays with him just for the perks of being the second strongest wolf in North America. The only wolf who wont do as she says is Anna, which in itself is a reason Leah would hate Anna. But that also can explain why the other female wolves didn't like Mercy. Since Mercy was never really pack until now, she never had the overpowering instinct to be submissive to any of the wolves. In the pack's eye's she would have been the lowest on the totem, so they would expect her to behave as such. When she didn't, it rubbed their fur the wrong way.

The question is will that change now that she IS pack? Or does she get all the boons of the pack bond without the nagging part of having to be submissive to those few who are above her?
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Patti L. on February 22, 2009, 08:15:04 pm
That last is a particularly interesting question, Tanis.  Mercy being Mercy, I suspect that she'll find ways to fight it if she does have to submit to Leah, but I rather suspect she'll retain her immunity to most dominance pushes.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Pendle on February 23, 2009, 09:51:58 am
I agree with Patti - Mercy will do what she wants. And I don't think the pack bonds will make her submissive to the wolves above in her. Mercy's a bit like Anna in the repect that she'll have to work on her own behaviours.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: alan on February 23, 2009, 12:29:17 pm
Go Mercy and Anna!
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: slcvamp on February 25, 2009, 10:02:02 am
Among many things that could contribute to Sam's issues I think that his wanting a family is the biggest contributor to the issues he is dealing with right now.

Most if not all of us can say that we love our families. Some people are big family people, as in the kind who grow up wanting to be a dad or mom rather than a firefighter or an actress. For someone who is like that (which I think our Sam is) losing spouses and children, especially the number Sam has lost, would be heart breaking. I've lost a brother and it took me a very long time to get to the point where I could get back to a semi normal routine without randomly breaking out in tears. Can you imagine how that would feel for someone to lose their own children over and over and over again? It's not something you ever completely heal from and for Sam I think it's just a jagged rip in his heart that kept getting larger and larger with each death. I think that his last baby's death (when he was in Texas) was probably the last string for him. It's like he just can't get a break. He finds someone who may be the answer to his prayers and she leaves. Then he meets someone who reminds him of Mercy in Texas and can maybe have a life with. SHe gets pregnant and has an abortion without his knowledge. He finds out that his baby has been killed, his own flesh and blood, the one thing he trully desires in the world, and it crushes him.

I love Sam and I really really really hope he is able to find someone to help him and love him.

Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: MariD on February 25, 2009, 11:42:41 am
Speaking of Sam, I stumbled across this http://ellaine.deviantart.com/art/The-Violinist-94976631 (http://ellaine.deviantart.com/art/The-Violinist-94976631) on deviantart and thought of Sam immediately. 
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Ellyll on February 25, 2009, 12:01:17 pm
Wow, that's really wonderful.  It fits.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Has on February 25, 2009, 01:34:59 pm
Ohhhh that so totally fits! ;D
Thanks for the find Mari!
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: alan on February 25, 2009, 02:45:21 pm
Cool.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: ArtAngel on February 25, 2009, 05:06:52 pm
Gorgeous! it really fits!
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Avarel on February 25, 2009, 10:08:19 pm
odd question... Is Mercy an Omega...?


hmm... or maybe she's the opposite of an omega?
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Zealith on February 25, 2009, 10:15:14 pm
Definately not an Omega, remember all the times she's gotten various werewolves mad at her?
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Avarel on February 25, 2009, 11:29:15 pm
Opposite Omega, -Omega for those of us living in math class.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: ArtAngel on February 25, 2009, 11:50:43 pm
Opposite Omega, -Omega for those of us living in math class.

As in chaos?

(What happened Avarel? You don't have a bounce in this post :D?)
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Avarel on February 25, 2009, 11:53:11 pm
                           bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce

Yep. (bounce) Chaos is a powerful force.

bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Patti L. on February 27, 2009, 05:59:21 pm
That really evokes him, to me!  Cool.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: charmed on February 27, 2009, 06:19:41 pm
Speaking of Sam, I stumbled across this http://ellaine.deviantart.com/art/The-Violinist-94976631 (http://ellaine.deviantart.com/art/The-Violinist-94976631) on deviantart and thought of Sam immediately. 


That's very nice! I can see why you thought of Sam :)
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Pendle on February 28, 2009, 09:31:59 am
odd question... Is Mercy an Omega...?


hmm... or maybe she's the opposite of an omega?

I was thinking like an Omega she'd be in the pack but out of it at the same time. That and Mercy's magic immunity is going to play a part in allowing her to be herself.

Didn't Patty say somewhere that if Adam really tried to make her do something that she could still say no? Or ignore him? Perhaps the effect of the pack will be similar.

Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Avarel on February 28, 2009, 12:13:26 pm
hmm... There is no pack magic in my life, (I don't think...) But when certain people ask me to do something, even if it is something i don't want to do, I do it anyway. Not because they make me but  because I want to do it for them.

I think this is the power Adam has over Mercy that Bran doesn't. Mercy cares, and when Adam tells her to drink from the fairy cup she does it. The Alpha mojo he uses helps, because she isn't fighting it. It's why he frightens her. She doesn't fight him, so the magic works. Because it's Adam. It's what Adam wants.
When Mercy has goals and specific protest (see several scenes in MC and BB) she doesn't notice his Alpha effect. its when she wants it, or when she  doesn't want to fight it, that she is effected.

wow. idea crystallizes in the typing. I'm gonna think about this.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Nifty on March 02, 2009, 11:31:46 am
                           bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce

bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bouncebounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce


Captivated by running text.
Can't look away....
I'm getting sleepy...sleepy....
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: alan on March 02, 2009, 11:41:59 am
hmm... There is no pack magic in my life, (I don't think...) But when certain people ask me to do something, even if it is something i don't want to do, I do it anyway. Not because they make me but  because I want to do it for them.

I think this is the power Adam has over Mercy that Bran doesn't. Mercy cares, and when Adam tells her to drink from the fairy cup she does it. The Alpha mojo he uses helps, because she isn't fighting it. It's why he frightens her. She doesn't fight him, so the magic works. Because it's Adam. It's what Adam wants.
When Mercy has goals and specific protest (see several scenes in MC and BB) she doesn't notice his Alpha effect. its when she wants it, or when she  doesn't want to fight it, that she is effected.

wow. idea crystallizes in the typing. I'm gonna think about this.

As confusing as all of that sounds it really does make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: ArtAngel on March 02, 2009, 12:56:18 pm
It does. She does what he asks because she loves him not because he's Alpha. Only she was too afraid to admit really loving him and blamed it on the Alpha mojo.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: alan on March 02, 2009, 02:03:42 pm
People afarid of love were a mistery to me...then i grew up.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Tish on March 02, 2009, 07:16:18 pm
I feel bad for Leah. Here she is stuck for darn near eternity with someone who doesn't love her. Perhaps she's been rejected before, just like Mercy. Perhaps no one's ever accepted her and she's found it works better for her to play the cold hard bitch. We get a glimpse of a softer damaged side when she first meets Anna and has a minor breakdown about Bran loving his sons above all others. Maybe she thought she'd finally hit a bit of good luck when her and Bran's wolves were mated, but instead of both sides of her being loved and accepted her human self is left out in the cold. We know Bran's wolf took Leah as mate because she has qualities that would make it impossible to love her and he couldn't risk loving her after BJW's death. We know the wolf needed the mate bond to fight the berserker. I hope that the qualities Bran thought Leah posessed were her hard crusty shell, and someday will realize she has a soft center and both sides of her will be accepted.  Who knows she may be a really great person, just hasn't had the opportunity to show it.  Or the will.  Something along the lines of Mercy not wanting the pack because they don't love her. 
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Michelle13 on March 09, 2009, 08:06:08 pm
Actually, I dont think Leah likes anyone besides herself. Half the time her and Bran sleep in different beds. Leah stays with him just for the perks of being the second strongest wolf in North America. The only wolf who wont do as she says is Anna, which in itself is a reason Leah would hate Anna. But that also can explain why the other female wolves didn't like Mercy. Since Mercy was never really pack until now, she never had the overpowering instinct to be submissive to any of the wolves. In the pack's eye's she would have been the lowest on the totem, so they would expect her to behave as such. When she didn't, it rubbed their fur the wrong way.

The question is will that change now that she IS pack? Or does she get all the boons of the pack bond without the nagging part of having to be submissive to those few who are above her?



Actually, as Mercy is the mate of the Alpha that makes her the 2nd ranked member of the pack, doesn't it? So within the pack she wouldn't be below anyone but Adam. In Bone Crossed I believe this did cause a few "raised hackles" having a Coyote as pack and the Alpha's Mate. Mercy's words to Aurielle were, "Suck it up and deal with it."  So I guess it won't cause her any sleepless nights. It would be interesting to know where she would stand outside her own pack in the were world now that she IS pack.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Pendle on March 10, 2009, 10:43:44 am
It would be interesting to know where she would stand outside her own pack in the were world now that she IS pack.

Yeah it would be interesting but we probably won't see it. When all the alphas meet up in Montana they take the seconds and/or the thrids with them, never the mates. But I would like to see Mercy go back to Montana - she'd ruffle some feathers, for sure.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Patti L. on March 10, 2009, 11:54:07 am
Is it some rule, or just habit that mates don't go?  And even at that, can you see MERCY abiding by that rule if she has a reason to ignore it?
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: alan on March 10, 2009, 01:02:42 pm
Rule or no rule i dont see Mercy not making trouble with Adam and Bran and the others.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: charmed on March 10, 2009, 02:50:57 pm
Is it some rule, or just habit that mates don't go?  And even at that, can you see MERCY abiding by that rule if she has a reason to ignore it?

I have the impression it's a habit. I believe it has to do with the possessiveness of alphas and not adding to the friction by bringing their females along.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Zealith on March 10, 2009, 05:28:33 pm
Yeah, no reason to start a battle to the death over a complement paid to the wrong lady. XD
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Omega 303 on March 16, 2009, 11:52:59 am
I really do feel sorry for Leah but I think she does understand the conditions of her and Bran's mate bond or else they would have not been bonded. Bran said that he found a acceptable compromise in Leah all that was needed to complete the bond was trust and acceptance,love is just an added bonus which he could not afford to add in the mix. I do feel sorry for her but I also can see his point of view,for the sake of the pack he can not afford to lose control of his beast or it will be very devastating for everyone. I believe Leah is not the only one hurting here Bran really does want to love her which he proves at the end of CW but that one luxery he can't afford.
Quote
Curled up on his side of the bed, she hugged a pillow. Tenderness swelled up in him; asleep she looked so soft and vulnerable. He pushed the tenderness away in that there was to much danger. PG 292
So yes he is suffering right alone with her.
Title: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Omega 303 on April 01, 2009, 01:30:27 am
I know there is a huge differance between Charles and Sam personality. Charles is really not a people person and can be very serious and very very dangerous. He doesn't care to much about mordern inventions. Plus he tends to view life from a simple point of view and doesn't like to complicate things. Samuel is a people person he has a charm that draws people to him and always have a strong urge to tease his baby brother. I think he can be very persuasive and controlling and a little selfish. Which he has proven in his pursuit of Mercy for the soul purpose of having kids. I can understand his pain and him wanting to have a family but he was only thinking of himself. While Charles has Anna best interest in hand and is truely and totally in love with her.


ETA: Subject line edited for spelling. Elle.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: alan on April 01, 2009, 01:23:05 pm
I think Sam will find someone when he's finally hit bottom..but that's just me.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: charmed on April 01, 2009, 02:17:46 pm
I think Sam will find someone when he's finally hit bottom..but that's just me.

Wrong thread alan, this one is about teh differences between Sam and Charles, not Sam's love life. :)
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: alan on April 01, 2009, 02:25:59 pm
My bad.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Omega 303 on April 02, 2009, 09:53:06 am
I think Mercy and Anna has a lot in common because of the life they have lived. But there is some difference. Even though Mercy is immuned to some magic I don't think she would be that immuned to pack magic. Once Adam had made her pack she became aware of the other wolves and their feelings. Plus Adam can actually influence her by making suggestions with the pack magic. Now Anna is not compelled to follow any ones order or suggestions Because of her Omega status the power of the pack magic just roles right off her Oh she can feel it but is not subject to obey. Alphas are born with the instincts to rule while submissives are born with the instincts to obey. An Omega purpose in the pack is to keep everyone in line by keeping down choas and helping the new wolves through their transition. Well actually she outside of the pack structure. But now that Mercy is pack she is inside of the pack structure as the Alpha female and the only one who can influence her is Adam. But hey this is only my opinion someone else probally can explain it a little better to me.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Jblake27 on April 02, 2009, 12:48:32 pm
Maybe Bran is the first Were, because his wolf is so strong. His mother's 'pet' could have been an actual wolf that she tortured to make a guardian. maybe she meant to kill Bran but instead he changed.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Omega 303 on April 02, 2009, 05:29:03 pm
No I don't think Bran was the first were. His mother had to have had a were as a pet because no normal wolf can pass on lycanthropy that's only in the blood or salivia of a were. I know Bran mother had control over him and he managed to break free of the spell, but It never said she had control over Sam. So I'm wondering when she changed Bran did she try to get him to kill Sam and he wasn't able to and Sam got away. Because In CW Bran was sure that when Mariposa told him to kill Charles he won't and Charles would be able to kill him because he knew if he went mad eventually all of his wolves would. I'm wondering if that was what happened with Sam, I know when Bran finally was free from his mother It took Sam years to help Bran defeat the berserker that lurked inside of him.


Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: wyterayven on April 09, 2009, 01:28:03 pm
I dont see any reason why they couldnt meet up in a future book, unless Patty doesnt want them to.

The stories themselves are on very slightly different timelines....but not by much....I got the impression it was more of a difference of months and that is just from the telling of the story. Both characters live in the same time in the same world. There shouldnt be a reason that they couldnt cross paths at some future point, and it would be logical that they would meet at some point, since Bran's pack is "family" to Mercy. Now that she has broken the ice, so to speak by taking Adam up there when he needed help, there is no reason she couldnt go back to visit, or that Anna and Charles couldnt have business in the Pacific Northwest.





Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Zealith on April 09, 2009, 01:44:29 pm
Maybe at Mercy and Adam's wedding. ^_^ Thats when I'm gunning for.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: wyterayven on April 09, 2009, 03:11:14 pm
Can you imagine the reception? Werewolves and Vampires and Fae Oh My! lol

Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Zealith on April 10, 2009, 02:11:27 pm
I really want to see it. *hopeful* Maybe in the book after the next, I don't think it will be in this one.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: alan on April 16, 2009, 03:49:36 pm
I really want to see it. *hopeful* Maybe in the book after the next, I don't think it will be in this one.

To much time difference would be my guess.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Zealith on April 16, 2009, 08:50:39 pm
Maybe by two A&Os the time will have caught up a bit.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: alan on April 18, 2009, 11:44:45 am
One can only hope.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Has on April 18, 2009, 12:15:18 pm
Patty is planning on doing that - but its going to take a few books for that to happen.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Omega 303 on April 19, 2009, 04:59:27 pm
Maybe by two A&Os the time will have caught up a bit.


I kinda think there on the same time line things are just happening in two different places at one time. Sam and Charles both leaves about the same time. Charles leave to go to Chicago and Sam goes to the Tri-Cities. They both leave after Mercy takes Adam and the body of Alan Frazier to Montana to let the Marrok know what was going on. In Alpha and Omega Anna calls the Marrok after she reads the article about Alan but Mercy had already informed Bran about what was going on, and Charles was already on the way. So we are just seeing what happen from Mercy's side and then from Anna's. Now it just the matter of something happening to bring them all together in the same place.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: CarolKat on April 19, 2009, 05:03:53 pm
I'm thinking when Sam finds his mate and gets married.  That seems to be a possible theme for SilverBorne. So they could meet up in book 6
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: ladylynx on April 19, 2009, 07:15:48 pm
Don't forget about the young girl Kara that mercy asked about in BC. Anna could be coming with her back tot he Tri City area just to make sure gets back okay. Still I don't know if Charles would want his mate traveling any where without him. Brother Wolf is very protective of his mate.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Patti L. on April 19, 2009, 08:36:24 pm
Anna's story to date takes place pretty much within the confines of the "Moon Called" timeline.
Mercy has gone on several months since then, the first of the werewolves have come out, and Wa. D.C. is already working on the consequences - The hottest bits of summer to Thanksgiving, remember? - so since "Hunting Ground" takes place BEFORE the wolves come out - that's what they're negotiating about! - the meeting ain't taking place then.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Omega 303 on April 19, 2009, 08:46:29 pm
Don't forget about the young girl Kara that mercy asked about in BC. Anna could be coming with her back tot he Tri City area just to make sure gets back okay. Still I don't know if Charles would want his mate traveling any where without him. Brother Wolf is very protective of his mate.

I'm not sure if Kara will come back to the Tri-city area she would have to join a pack, and Adam wasn't to thrilled about her joining his pack, maybe it was because of her age and the fact that he has a lot of unmated males in his pack. And a female wolf cannot become a lone wolf like the males can. So I think she will stay with the Marrok's pack or choose to go somewhere else where she would be more comfortable.

And yes you are right Brother Wolf is very protected of Anna but if he feels Charles is going somewhere that is really not safe for her he will leave her behind, that is if she listens to him, she has proven to be just as protected of Charles as he is of her. But now that they are mated Brother Wolf has settled down alot and will have no problem with Anna doing things alone. The problem before was that they weren't mated and Brother Wolf was wary about her being alone because he knew that she still could choose another wolf for a mate.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Ellyll on April 20, 2009, 05:52:24 am
Kara was never from the Tri-Cities, remember?  She'd have no reason to go there at all. 
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Omega 303 on April 20, 2009, 08:04:39 am
Yes I remember now, I think they were from Virgina. Because the Marrok told Mercy he knew some leaders that would take her in but they weren't anywhere near Virgina.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: ladylynx on April 20, 2009, 08:20:37 am
But didn't her parents come out to the Tri-city area to speak with Adam or Mercy about getting help for their daughter? It looks like I'm going to have to hunt down my book and look it up.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: charmed on April 20, 2009, 08:24:48 am
Her father is a journalist and did some research. Since Adam was an Alpha who was "out" Kara's father went to the Tri-Cities to talk to him. Mercy wsa seen dating Adam so he talked to her first to get her take on Adam; Kara's father thought that Mercy was a regular human.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Omega 303 on April 20, 2009, 08:59:19 am
The reason Mr.Black went to Mercy was because his daughter was getting stonger and it was hard for him to keep her chained up. She had already broken free one time and he was afraid that she would get free. So he got in touch with the wolf that had saved Kara and the wolf told him that the local alpha was a poor choice. And when the wolf found out Mr.Black was in Portland, he gave him Adam's and Mercy's name. So he went to Mercy to really find out what kind of alpha Adam was and how he treated the members of is pack especially the umated females. And I think the fact that Adam had a daughter himself give him some ideal of how is daughter would be treated since she was so young.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Patti L. on April 20, 2009, 06:10:50 pm
Drifting off topic, gang.

Mercy may never meet Kara the too young; Anna may.  MAY.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: BigMama on May 25, 2009, 07:40:39 pm
Do we also assume that Bran's mother must have killed his first wife? Do we know how she died?
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: BigMama on May 25, 2009, 08:00:24 pm
Both were apparently raised by Bran as a single parent, however. I think that Charles unusual birth separated him from the rest of the pack and placed him in a position in which he always felt outside, even as the son of the Marok. His power and magic made him feared in a way that Samuel never dealt with.  Samuel seems to have been in many ways the "golden haired child" of the pack. Held in esteem for his profession, but not really understood all that well by those he lived with--even his father.  Bran obviously loves both his sons, but it seems to me he admires Charles strength and uses him in ways he would never use Samuel. By doing so, he has made Charles even more outside the pack and alone. Samuel seems more self absorbed to me--less determined than Charles to do what must be done without thought to his own desires.  IMO, Charles has truly earned Anna by his lonely and selfless service to the pack and the Marok. I like Samuel, but he seems to me to be worried to much about his own needs and agenda.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Avarel on May 25, 2009, 08:08:40 pm
Do we know that Samuel was raised by Bran as a single parent? Wasn't he married before he was changed?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: BigMama on May 25, 2009, 08:08:55 pm
If Leah does try to harm Anna, won't it also harm Charles through the mate bond? I can't see Bran allowing Leah to seriously do harm to either Anna or Charles.  She can try to undermine Anna with the pack, but I doubt Leah can do any real harm without serious repercussions with the Marok. I wonder if Bran can remove Leah's ability to access his power. If she did not have the power of the Marok, she could not hold her position in the pack.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: BigMama on May 25, 2009, 08:11:42 pm
Do we know how old Samuel was when he and Bran were changed by Bran's mother? I had assumed that Samuel was still rather young and at home because of the fact that he was with his father when the mother had them both changed, but I don't know. Surely, his wife had already died by then--we have no mention of her being changed or under the control of the mother.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: BigMama on May 25, 2009, 08:22:16 pm
I could, however, see Bran requesting that Adam bring Mercy. That would certainly put the cat among the pigeons, as they say!  ;)
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Zealith on May 25, 2009, 08:45:14 pm
I hate to say this, but in the time period Samuel was growing up in death rates were very high. There is a good chance his mother did die.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: opramum on May 25, 2009, 09:11:37 pm
Sam is under stress that few other wolves let themselves face.  He is a healer, and as such, is always at war between his healer doctor and the wolf.  Charles has always been a wolf.  He does what he has to, knows his job.  And, until Anna, let little get in the way.  According to Patty, the next Mercy book is much about Sam.  Don't know what will happen though, except that he has to come to deal with this paradox.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: ladylynx on May 25, 2009, 09:12:53 pm
There's something that the rest of the pack doesn't know about Mercy. That only a few chosen members know about her. Mercy is consider by Bran as his adopted daughter. The rest of the pack doesn't know this fact. This was pointed out in Bone Cross when Samuel and Bran was sitting in Mercy's room. Bran considers Mercy part of his family. Not just pack wise, but father and daughter wise.

As for Leah, I do feel sorry for her, but in time I think love will sneak into their relationship. It sorted of showed in Cry wolf when Bran came back and saw her curled up on his side of the bed in his room.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Ellyll on May 26, 2009, 06:14:35 am
There's nothing we've been told so far about Samuel's childhood.  We don't know that he was raised by Bran alone.  We do know that he married and had children before he was Changed, so he wouldn't have been "young and at home" in the sense of being a dependent child when he and his father were Changed.  However, as we're talking more than a thousand years ago, people didn't usually leave the nest in the same way people do nowadays.  Samuel might have been living in the same house or farm or whatever even though he was married and a father himself. 

I could be wrong, but I don't think we even have been told for certain that Samuel and his father were Changed at the same time.  Only that they were both kept as Bran's mother's pets.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Patti L. on May 26, 2009, 06:56:33 am
I wonder if one of the two was turned first, and it looked like he wouldn't survive, and the witch had the other turned as her back up.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Ellyll on May 26, 2009, 09:13:34 am
I like that thought.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on May 26, 2009, 10:18:43 am
If Leah does try to harm Anna, won't it also harm Charles through the mate bond? I can't see Bran allowing Leah to seriously do harm to either Anna or Charles.  She can try to undermine Anna with the pack, but I doubt Leah can do any real harm without serious repercussions with the Marok. I wonder if Bran can remove Leah's ability to access his power. If she did not have the power of the Marok, she could not hold her position in the pack.

If Leah attempts to harm the Omega.  The singular werewolf in whose presence your excuse of raging out of control instincts does not fly.  I very much fear Leah would be sinking her own boat.  Not only with the Marock but with the rest of her pack as well.

No its more likely if Leah does harm Anna it will be because Anna's been sticking her big old Omega nose into Leah's damaged relationship. In which case Anna might not be willing to admit who hit her.  Because she still trying to help Leah.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: The Deposed King on May 26, 2009, 10:41:32 am
I think Sam will find someone when he's finally hit bottom..but that's just me.

Wrong thread alan, this one is about teh differences between Sam and Charles, not Sam's love life. :)


Ah but isn't that one the main differences between the two?  Their love lives or lack there of?


The Deposed King
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Avarel on May 26, 2009, 01:19:25 pm
were Sam's wife and kids dead before he was turned? If so, then being turned would have ended his 'human' life. if not, he would have to try and mix them.
How long was he his grandmother's pet?
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Ellyll on May 26, 2009, 01:57:41 pm
Deposed King - not really.  Sam may not have a love life right this minute, but he's had wives and lovers, at least one fairly recently. 

Avarel - we don't know.  It's an interesting question, isn't it?  Would he have been able to try and mix them, if he were a slave/pet?  And, as you say, how long was he a pet?  I find all this Bran and Samuel back story really fascinating.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Avarel on May 26, 2009, 02:39:29 pm
the back story is part of why we keep reading... then theres the cool world... and the characters... and- well there are lot's of resons.

anyway, one of the major differences between Sam and Charles is Sam had a human life before he became a wolf. Charles never did. Sam had a crazy grandmother. Charles had a NA chief as a grandfather.

Did Sam have siblings, or is he Bran's only child as a Human? Is Charles his only brother, or did he have younger or even older brothers?

Sisters?
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Has on May 26, 2009, 03:34:46 pm
My theory is that Bran's mother turn Bran and then got him to turn or kill his entire family. Perhaps she needed blood sacrifice to feed whatever spell she needed so she could link up and enslaving Bran. Mariposa needed to do the same for Asil and his mate for it to work as well - the close bond with family/affection is the main tie and link.

Title: Speculation on the Cornick Werewolves and their Changes
Post by: The Deposed King on May 26, 2009, 08:29:57 pm
My theory is that Bran's mother turn Bran and then got him to turn or kill his entire family. Perhaps she needed blood sacrifice to feed whatever spell she needed so she could link up and enslaving Bran. Mariposa needed to do the same for Asil and his mate for it to work as well - the close bond with family/affection is the main tie and link.



Bran's mom didn't even need to be a were herself.  If she was a witch, controlling a rogue were-wolf and then having it turn her son... perhaps eating the wife at the same time?

Anyway at that point she would have a were she could more fully control due to the blood they shared.


The Deposed King


ETA: Discussion moved from the Charles Vs Samuel thread to expand on the discussion. Edited for Subject change. Elle.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: ladylynx on May 26, 2009, 08:38:41 pm
According to the story Charles commented about in Cry wolf. Bran's mother pet turned him and Samuel into were-wolves. Bran himself would had turned out to be a witch if she hadn't done that to him. That is why there is a law among the witches about making a Were-Wolf a familiar. He also knew what type of spell the witch had used to turn Asil's dead mate into a guardian. Bran's killed and ate his mother. It took Samuel several years to heal Bran back to normal.

Where Anna is an Omega, it took her less time to turn him back.   
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Ellyll on May 27, 2009, 04:39:48 am
Bran himself would had turned out to be a witch if she hadn't done that to him. That is why there is a law among the witches about making a Were-Wolf a familiar.

The law wasn't because Bran himself would have been a witch if his mother hadn't had him Changed.  The law was because of what Bran did as a result of the captivity.  It was realized that it was way too dangerous to make a werewolf into a witch's pet. 
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: alan on May 27, 2009, 12:10:13 pm
Or is she really died...
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Has on May 27, 2009, 12:16:22 pm
I think shes dead it was implied Bran's family was killed with the exception of Sam.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: alan on May 27, 2009, 12:19:33 pm
By his mother right with witch power?  But could a twist be that she survived and Bran and everyone else thought she was dead because of the mother's witch powers?  Or im i stretching again?
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Has on May 27, 2009, 12:25:16 pm
Sam said in Cry Wolf that Bran ate his mother. Remember the Berserker in him didnt leave many survivors if any :P
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Patti L. on May 27, 2009, 07:53:26 pm
By his mother right with witch power?  But could a twist be that she survived and Bran and everyone else thought she was dead because of the mother's witch powers?  Or im i stretching again?
Well, unless she was also turned to were, she'd be long dead now anyway.  Or unless she's some sort of fae, and there's no sign of that.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Omega 303 on May 28, 2009, 09:23:18 am
I was wondering if Bran inherited more than just telepathy from his mother. I mean she was a witch and he was her son, or did she take away his powers. I thought I read something like that. But I'm not sure, and can the reason Charles have magical abilities be that he inherited from both sides of his family?
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Omega 303 on May 28, 2009, 09:40:31 am

 No one in their right mind would be able to hurt an Omega. Their more likely to hurt a Submissive than an Omega. With the Omega's calming effect It would calm them down. From my understanding only a mad wolf one who can not control himself will attack and Omega, human or not. And the other way is from orders of the Alpha being not able to resist and Alpha's orders. That's how everything went down in Leo's pack. So no I don't think Leah would hurt Anna unless she's crazy, which she is not. We all know Anna's Omega abilities effect Leah too.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: alan on May 28, 2009, 10:38:11 am
And I thought my family was confusing.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Has on May 28, 2009, 10:52:58 am
I was wondering if Bran inherited more than just telepathy from his mother. I mean she was a witch and he was her son, or did she take away his powers. I thought I read something like that. But I'm not sure, and can the reason Charles have magical abilities be that he inherited from both sides of his family?

I think with Charles there is the possibility of him developing those abilities but its more about the direction of the magic. Charles never really trained as a witch and his abilities are more innate and natural.
I think with Bran becoming a berserker must have blocked some of his abilities and I doubt he would want to try to develop or regain them because he hates witches and I dont blame him especially his experiences with them. But perhaps one day he might be able to receive as well as send thoughts.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: alan on May 28, 2009, 10:58:00 am
But perhaps one day he might be able to receive as well as send thoughts.

I thought Charles said that he thought his dad could but just never said or showed that he could to keep people unaware of his real amount of power?
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: charmed on May 28, 2009, 11:06:51 am
But perhaps one day he might be able to receive as well as send thoughts.

I thought Charles said that he thought his dad could but just never said or showed that he could to keep people unaware of his real amount of power?

Charles states that he believes this to be true but he does not know it for a fact.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: alan on May 28, 2009, 11:13:33 am
Ahhh, thank you.  I thought i was losing it for a second there...again... ::)
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Omega 303 on May 28, 2009, 11:50:23 am
I was wondering if Bran inherited more than just telepathy from his mother. I mean she was a witch and he was her son, or did she take away his powers. I thought I read something like that. But I'm not sure, and can the reason Charles have magical abilities be that he inherited from both sides of his family?

I think with Charles there is the possibility of him developing those abilities but its more about the direction of the magic. Charles never really trained as a witch and his abilities are more innate and natural.
I think with Bran becoming a berserker must have blocked some of his abilities and I doubt he would want to try to develop or regain them because he hates witches and I dont blame him especially his experiences with them. But perhaps one day he might be able to receive as well as send thoughts.



Yes but doesn't some witches magic comes naturally to them I mean it all depends on if your a white white or a Black witch and what about Wiccas I hope I'm saying it right! But I know Wiccas are spiritual and deal with the spirits,nature, and gods. So could have Charles mother been a Wicca. Sorry but I'm just ranting trying to grasp the concept of it all. Oh and I think Bran gave Charles to choice to study to become a witch or not. And I don't think Bran has a problem with all witches just Black witches because they deal with the death and destrution of other beings in order to cast their spells.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Ellyll on May 28, 2009, 11:58:18 am
Doesn't this mean that Samuel is almost as  old as Bran?

Yes. 

Omega, I don't see how Charles's mother could have been Wicca.  That's more of a European tradition, not a Native American one. 

In Cry Wolf, it was said that Charles could probably have been a witch if he wanted to learn it. 
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Has on May 28, 2009, 12:02:43 pm
Yep Charles's mother was a native Indian but she did have magic but from what I understood that native magic is more natural and innate. 
With Witch magic its control of the body and over things but white witches arent as powerful because they dont sacrifice or go dark to gain power or strengthen their spells. I think Elizaveta is borderline if not dark because she had to leave town when the demon arrived.
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: charmed on May 28, 2009, 12:04:53 pm
Aaaand, we're off track. This thread is a discussion about Samuel's mother not Charles, his magic, his mother or witches. Any or all of those would make interesting threads of their own however. :)

charmed, books mod
Title: Re: Samuels Mom, Bran's First Wife (?) Possible Cry Wolf *SPOILER*
Post by: Omega 303 on May 28, 2009, 12:07:38 pm
Ok thanks I really didn't know the orgin of Wiccas.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Wind on May 29, 2009, 04:35:51 pm
I think one of the differences is in their ages. Something I'd had to deal with. Sam is, if I remember CW right, something like 800 years older than Charles. While Charles had his Salish family to help raise him and to help deal with Brother Wolf, Sam and Bran didn't. That in itself with cause very, very different personalities, even if Sam was grown when he was turned.

I think Sam's personality wouldn't allow for him to be used as a enforcer, while Charles' more, at least appearing to be, closed off personality suits that type of usage more. Both charecters are two parts of the same whole, well as I see them.

Both brothers love each other feircely and would do anything for each other, or Bran.

Just my two cents.  ;)

Wind
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on May 31, 2009, 09:47:00 am

 No one in their right mind would be able to hurt an Omega. Their more likely to hurt a Submissive than an Omega. With the Omega's calming effect It would calm them down. From my understanding only a mad wolf one who can not control himself will attack and Omega, human or not. And the other way is from orders of the Alpha being not able to resist and Alpha's orders. That's how everything went down in Leo's pack. So no I don't think Leah would hurt Anna unless she's crazy, which she is not. We all know Anna's Omega abilities effect Leah too.


I'm not sure.  I remember that an Omega suppresses or more accurately calms the wolf.  So that the human side comes forth even when the were side would naturally start creeping in.  And even as a straight human Omega's (before they are turned) are a calming influence.  And while this would preclude normal people from abusing and torturing such an individual, and when I say normal people I include normal were's when speaking about an Omega.

However her calming Omega abilities don't supernatually cause were's in her presence to leap to her defense when being abused.  So I have to think that while normal people and thus normal were's wouldn't torture or allow someone to be tortured, a normal person with a busybody, even a very likable busybody and even I'd say supernaturally likable busybody, is still a potential hazard to the busybody if the interfering person messes or seems to make worse a tottering romantic relationship.

I guess what I mean to say is that a normal person might hit another normal person who's been interfering with their husband.  Even if they knew better.  And Leah's been shown to be blind or deliberately myoptic in certain areas.  I'd say torture is right out.  But a physical confrontation with Leah deliberately psyching herself about the situation and future anna's potentially prying ways, is possible.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Omega 303 on June 01, 2009, 02:17:24 am
I don't know I would have to think on that one, as I recall though Asil and Leah both were in human form when she effected them. I mean she help Asil in the church and she compelled Leah to talk when Leah Tried to intimidate her. And look at Kara her friend she was drawn to Anna and become very protective of her. So I think it goes both way, but I do understand the way you are putting things.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: ladylynx on June 01, 2009, 04:03:02 am
The major thing everyone is forgetting, is Leah would have to take Charles out first. He is the most dangerous wolf there is in the pack next to his father. Brother Wold would never allow any harm to come to his mate and the Spirits would warn Charles ahead of time. As long as Anna doesn't enrage Leah, she is safe. The Marrok would never allow Anna to be harm and neither would Charles. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: charmed on June 01, 2009, 04:41:04 am
We're wandering off topic people. The topic is BRAN and Leah, not Anna and Leah.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Carradee on June 02, 2009, 10:49:53 am
Bran ate his mom b/c she tried to make him kill Samuel.  Just a thought, but might not THAT be when Sam got Changed?

In any event, Sam couldn't have been too old when Bran ate grandma, and to then have to spend the next X years trying to calm down the Berserker (Grendel?) on his lonesome.  No help, no pack, no family left except psycho daddy.

Then Charles had a much calmer, more loving father (and big brother who adored children).

Seems to me that Samuel might've always been a bit less stable emotionally than Charles is.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Ellyll on June 02, 2009, 11:31:38 am
Bran ate his mom b/c she tried to make him kill Samuel.  Just a thought, but might not THAT be when Sam got Changed?

We don't know that for a fact.  Charles guessed that might have been what caused his father to break her control, but it was never confirmed. 

In any event, Sam couldn't have been too old when Bran ate grandma

Sure, he could have.  Bran could have been Changed years before, and Sam was at the very least, married and a father (MC) before he was Changed.  And since we know that people who are Changed in later life (like Dr. Wallace) regress back to the prime of life, both Bran and Samuel, or either, could have been Changed at any point in life: middle-aged, old, relatively young, whatever. 

and to then have to spend the next X years trying to calm down the Berserker (Grendel?) on his lonesome.  No help, no pack, no family left except psycho daddy.

Then Charles had a much calmer, more loving father (and big brother who adored children).

Seems to me that Samuel might've always been a bit less stable emotionally than Charles is.

I completely agree with you on this.  No matter what, the whole berserker episode, never mind being enslaved by evil witch grandma, must have been horribly traumatic for Samuel.  I think he just hides his instability really well.  Less well, lately, but that's what everyone's so worried about, isn't it? 

I think Charles is actually very stable.  I think that's a large part of why he can be the enforcer for his father's pack; it's not a job you can give to anyone who's not rock solid, is it?  He's probably the most emotionally stable person in his family.  I think that's part of why he feels so responsible, which may in turn be why he keeps doing the enforcer job.  It's the flip side of Anna's Omega gift.  He cares about everyone, and feels responsible for protecting them. 
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on June 02, 2009, 12:02:41 pm
The major thing everyone is forgetting, is Leah would have to take Charles out first. He is the most dangerous wolf there is in the pack next to his father. Brother Wold would never allow any harm to come to his mate and the Spirits would warn Charles ahead of time. As long as Anna doesn't enrage Leah, she is safe. The Marrok would never allow Anna to be harm and neither would Charles. 

She needs to get Charles off  with Bran and out of range.  Get female were's who aren't her sycophants to be present and agree that this is female business.  And have some sort of challenge with Anna.  Be it a social tear down or a non-lethal physical fight/challenge.

I doubt Bran would be happy, and charles would be furious.  But Leah might not be forward looking enough to see it.  Or seeing it care all that much.  Also if her and Bran are doing very poorly she might welcome it as forcing Bran to chose.  Even if its only chose that he would rather get rid of her, than show he cares enough to protect her from her bad behaviors one more time.  Spin it as a test of their relationship, where Bran shows if he care or if he doesn't.  Even if with either path Leah is up for punishment.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: ladylynx on June 02, 2009, 03:07:30 pm
Another thing about Sam and Charles is, Sam is a healer. He's like Hawkeye  from MASH 4077. He adores life. He knows it is necessary to kill people, but he prefers the softer aspects of life. Where Charles knows and accepts his job. Just like Anna pointed out, he takes no joy in what he does. He does it because someone has to do it that won't enjoy it and to keep the whole safe. That is the one aspect of Charles I think she loves the most about him. What Sam needs, is someone that is like Anna and Mercy, but similar to him. Someone that enjoys life and respects it. Maybe an artist, folk singer or someone that's a musician. 
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Avarel on June 02, 2009, 03:40:10 pm
So was Samuel a father figure for Charles or an Older brother figure? or a mix of the two?
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: ladylynx on June 02, 2009, 04:16:33 pm
I would have to say both. All tho, as brothers the two of them are forces to be reckon with. who ever challenge them would be up the creek without a paddle.
Title: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: Avarel on June 02, 2009, 04:19:17 pm
Think of the person who tried to pit the two of them against each other.
I wonder... Dyou think Leah ever did? could be an interesting short story.

ETA: Posts moved out of the Charles Vs Samuel thread. Edited for a subject change. Elle.
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: ladylynx on June 02, 2009, 04:26:28 pm
Leah doesn't strike me as the type of person to do something like that. It would require to much effort and she seems to enjoy her place to much to risk it. Still they are brothers and there is going to be times they disagree with one another, but I think Charles looks up to Sam. He respects his older to much.
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: Avarel on June 02, 2009, 04:31:37 pm
I dunno, Leah strikes me as a manipulative person. It already says (I think it was sage?) that Leah doesn't like Charles because the Marrok loves his sons more than her. To turn them against each other... Charles is younger, possibly more easily manipulated (think teenager). Samuel, who suddenly gets half the attention from his father. possible jealousy?!?

I suspect part of the bitterness is that Leah tried to push between Bran and his sons and couldn't succeed.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Omega 303 on June 02, 2009, 05:59:06 pm
I don't think Bran would have a problem punishing Leah for any wrong doing. We know that because in Moon called when she went after Mercy she submitted to not only Bran but Sam too. That was kinda weird in a way. I mean isn't she supposed to be higher up in rank than Sam. And I don't think Bran would let Leah hurt Anna in anyway for one she is is son's mate and is very much needed in the pack. Now, I do know that Bran will not let anyone disrespect her but he will not hold her up in her own doing.
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: caerali on June 03, 2009, 03:29:53 am
I don't know if she would be brave enough to try.  I think Bran would put that down rather quickly.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Carradee on June 03, 2009, 06:00:55 am
Quote from: [quote author=Ellyll link=topic=2473.msg133860#msg133860 date=1243971098
In any event, Sam couldn't have been too old when Bran ate grandma

Sure, he could have.  Bran could have been Changed years before, and Sam was at the very least, married and a father (MC) before he was Changed.  And since we know that people who are Changed in later life (like Dr. Wallace) regress back to the prime of life, both Bran and Samuel, or either, could have been Changed at any point in life: middle-aged, old, relatively young, whatever. 

But witches have human lifespans.  So Sam could not have been older than a human lifespan, because his grandmother was still alive.  He was still in his formative years, werewolf-wise.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Ellyll on June 03, 2009, 01:05:37 pm
I didn't say Samuel would have been older than a human lifespan before he was Changed.  I just said, as far as we know (since Patti hasn't divulged this yet), he could have been almost any age, and since he was married and a father, that gives him a minimum (a pretty young minimum, though, given how young people married ~1000 years ago).  And Bran's mother had taken on many werewolf qualities when she enslaved Bran, so she could have been pretty old. 

To be honest, I have no guesses as to how old either Sam or Bran were when they were Changed, other than that we know Sam was past puberty.  But, for example, Witch Mother could have had Bran at age 14 (think Juliet), and Bran could have had Samuel at say, 16, and Samuel could have been even as old as 20, and Witch Mother would only be 50.  Or Samuel could have been 40, and she 70, which is still a human lifespan.  So the possibilities are pretty broad. 

I yearn to know the story, and I hope it comes out over the life of the series (series-es?).   :D
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: cavaliergirl on June 04, 2009, 04:20:28 am
I think he can be very persuasive and controlling and a little selfish. Which he has proven in his pursuit of Mercy for the soul purpose of having kids. I can understand his pain and him wanting to have a family but he was only thinking of himself.
I want to challenge the statement about Samuel being selfish.  He is from an age when people married at 12.  She was 14 when he started considering marriage and 16 when he started to move in on her.  He loves her, is physically attracted to her, enjoys spending time in her company, has enough money to support her, fully accepts her coyote-self (which her mother doesn't), and would take care of her/protect her.  He was hardly attempting to enslave her, force her to do something she didn't want, or even lie to her about his feelings.  He didn't even try to pursue her when she left, but accepted her decision. 

As the 2nd most dominant wolf in North America and the Marrock's son, he likely could have made things difficult for Adam but never really does...instead he helps Mercy and Adam repeatedly.  When he realizes Mercy is in love with Adam, he steps back and gracefully accepts her decision again. 

It's not selfish want children. 
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: Omega 303 on June 05, 2009, 07:47:48 am
As for Leah, I do feel sorry for her, but in time I think love will sneak into their relationship. It sorted of showed in Cry wolf when Bran came back and saw her curled up on his side of the bed in his room.


It's also shows that Bran is afraid for it to come to that point. So I think things are up in the air on that issue, It's possible he'll let his guard down. The bigger part of it is that he don't want to put the pack at risk. He feels if he falls in love with Leah and something happen to her he would lose himself again ruled by the beast the lives within. But I think that he would lose it if anything happen to either of his sons. So there's still that risk, but only a slighter risk when it comes to Sam and Charles.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy
Post by: ladylynx on June 05, 2009, 02:50:26 pm
I think, now that Anna is part of the pack. She can control the beast inside of him. Cause out of every one there, she is the most capable of handling him.

As for Mercy, I think she is going to make a wonderful female alpha. Look what she has manage to do just on her own accord before she became Adam's mate.

Leah may be spoiled,self-centered and a little full of herself, but I feel she really cares for Bran. It may hurt her to take second place to Bran's sons and his dead wife, but I have feeling she'll stand by him and never do any thing to lose her place by his side.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Elle on June 05, 2009, 08:11:42 pm
I've altered this subject a bit to include Anna into the equation. Elle.
Title: Re: The difference between Charles and Samuel
Post by: Elle on June 05, 2009, 09:33:48 pm
Hi everyone,

You'll notice a few missing posts in the thread. The great thing about the board is how the discussion evolve and discussion begins on new ideas and speculation. When that happens those posts will be split off so that discussion on those ideas can happen independant of the original thread.

Check out some the great discussions that sprouted from this thread:

The European Werewolves (http://hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2775.0)
Speculation on the Cornic Werewolves and Their Changes (http://hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2776.0)
Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other? (http://hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2774.0)

Omega's original intent here was to discuss the personality differences between Sam and Charles. While I do see some distinct differences I think they're very close in personality types.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Omega 303 on June 06, 2009, 09:20:24 am
Leah may be spoiled,self-centered and a little full of herself, but I feel she really cares for Bran. It may hurt her to take second place to Bran's sons and his dead wife, but I have feeling she'll stand by him and never do any thing to lose her place by his side.

I'm not so sure about Leah really being there for Bran, I mean the way she should. I think that's why he looks to his sons for help and advice. And now that Anna's in the pack and is Charles's mate she has another reason to be bitter. I'm sure she's knows that Anna has been there for the Marrok when she wasn't, for instance, In CW when the Marrok went to Dr. Carter's funeral Leah wasn't by his side in fact she felt that it was his fault and that he was pretending to greive for his friend, and  told him not to go. But Anna comforted him and his sons where there for him. Either way she should have been by his side if it was his fault or not. If she wouldn't be so self-centered and hateful I feel the Marrock would truely fall in love with her. I know she's hurt but she doesn't have to stroke her ego by mistreating everyone else.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Avarel on June 07, 2009, 05:13:47 pm
I know she's hurt but she doesn't have to stroke her ego by mistreating everyone else.

She kind of does, that she does is why Bran chose her in the first place. He knows he can't love someone who tears down the people around, so he chose Leah.
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: Avarel on June 07, 2009, 05:21:10 pm
that's why you go for subtle manipulation.

like leah not showing up at the funeral.
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: gryphon340 on June 07, 2009, 05:29:11 pm
euro wolves might
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: Avarel on June 07, 2009, 05:34:39 pm
but how would they get to Samuel?  We (sort of) know what happens to Samuel. (I think) right now, timeline wise. he's still courting Mercy.

but I think your right about the eurowolves... they don't have the... loyalty to Bran that would trip up the American wolves.
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: cavaliergirl on June 08, 2009, 05:24:33 am
Samuel was about a thousand years old when Charles was born and had been a father several times over.  He'd also assumed a lot of responsibility for Bran, putting himself at risk to bring his father out of the beserker rage, something that took decades.  He's either the 2nd or 3rd most dominant wolf in the country (Bone Crossed says second, Moon Called says third) which would probably have him being in the top ten on the planet. 

Their relationship with each other has puzzled me a little, as Bran's reaction on finding out that Anna is an omega is to say "His brother's going to tease him unmercifully about this" and Samuel introduces himself to Anna as "elder brother and tormenter".  Considering the vast age difference, I would have expected Samuel's relationship with Charles to be more like a father/grandfather/uncle/mentor than true siblings. 

As for someone coming between them, certainly not Leah.  According to Bran, Leah is selfish and stupid.  Despite her being the Marrock's mate, she is obviously cowed by Samuel and Charles.  Think of her attack on Anna (scraped the bottom of the barrel, sit and stay).  Mean-spirited, yet straight forward.  She lacks the depth, subtlety or strength to come between the brothers.  (She hasn't even been able to really become between them and Bran, replacing them as his adviser or confidant.)   

Unless they got into a fight over a woman, say Samuel made a play for Anna, I don't see anyone except Bran having the strength, people-reading skills, and emotional relationship  to be able to come between them.  Bran has no reason for doing anything like that.  Samuel and Charles are too sharp, too experienced. 
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: Avarel on June 09, 2009, 07:14:01 pm
But Charles wasn't always experienced. And he does have a thing about not trusting people/ getting close to them.

Actually, I also don't see it happening, but I think it would be interesting to see someone try.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Avarel on June 10, 2009, 09:27:31 am
Yep. Mercy and Anna are definitely different characters. :)
Title: Re: Do you think anyone tried to pit Charles and Samuel against each other?
Post by: cavaliergirl on June 15, 2009, 01:22:15 pm
I bet Leah's tried.  Remember when Charles was debating whether to go see Asil or Bran early in the morning, but he knew that Leah would start an argument and he wouldn't be able to see Bran alone?  I'm sure she does it on purpose, and Bran lets her get away with it most of the time. 

I can see her doing similar stuff with Charles and Samuel...taking digs about which one of them is 2nd and 3rd, or insinuating that one of them is Bran's favorite, or similar stuff.  She certainly tried to make Anna insecure about her relationship with Charles. 
I just don't think Charles and Samuel would listen to her or buy into it.

I doubt anyone else would try because Charles is just too scary.  If they did try, I doubt they could succeed...both Charles and Samuel would be too good at telling truth from lies and know each other too well. 
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: white_unicorn on June 16, 2009, 06:22:07 am
1st, were is the snippet? my nose is blocked from that allergy of spring.... where is it?

2nd, Anna and Mercy are not only different as characters from their beginning, they had different lives.
Anna was only human before the attack and abused after that...
Mercy grew up with the wolves, not belonging with them or the plain humans, it makes here react and think differently.
Also, in some ways the 2 are alike, they both had a time that didn't believe they ever would be needed. mercy for almost all her life Anna for 3 long years, they didn't see themselves as really worthy... or to phrase it better, they didn't think they belonged to the pack or the world they were inhabitting.
ercy had Sam in those dark years after her foster family died, to protect her from some of the other wolves. that and the young age (as well as the truma it caused her to leave all that behind) left scars, Sam coming back just made her re-live some of the things she thought she had left behind. sometimes you need to actually face your past and not run from it.
So, the choice she actually had to make was between the things she once thought she loved but that in the end had 'betrayed' her and the new, undiscovered, Adam that has a whole other attitude in life, a wife (now x-wife) and a teenage daughter to add to the pack he is ruling.
Anna on the other hand, was in her world, the world she knew, or thought she knew with a future she could build untill the attack, then everything changed and she had to adjust. After 3 long years a strange wolf comes and she feels drawn but also.... the future she thought she had is changing again.... and again she needs to adjust to new things...
The 2 heroines are different in the way they think and react but deep down, hey have common traits....
so... i have no idea what point i wanted to make and i will leave it to that.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Avarel on June 16, 2009, 05:08:19 pm
I think your point is that during the time of the books both had to re-assess their life and their expectations, goals etc. and make the decision of where they are going in their life.
They both chose to take an active role in their life, giving up the more passive/reactive lives that they had built.
Even so, the reasons they had for making this choice were different. they have different pasts, different presents and will have different futures.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: The Deposed King on June 19, 2009, 10:55:10 am
I think your point is that during the time of the books both had to re-assess their life and their expectations, goals etc. and make the decision of where they are going in their life.
They both chose to take an active role in their life, giving up the more passive/reactive lives that they had built.
Even so, the reasons they had for making this choice were different. they have different pasts, different presents and will have different futures.

Mercy is at her most basic level an agent of change (coyote neh?) and resistant to pack magic.

Anna is at her most basic level an agent of stability (calms and stablizes individual wolves and packs when the alpha isn't working directly against her) and immune to pack magic (dominant//submissive parts anyway) in certain ways and directly control of pack magic in others (like an alpha).

They are at their cores almost like a ying and a yang.  Anna will by very nature reduce chaos and disorder in the pack and bring harmony, while Mercy will by her nature shake things up causing chaos and upheaval for a time, but because of who she is things will tend to rearrange themselves into something better and stronger.

Seems to me that their powers, while not totally incompatible, work in almost opposite ways.  That has to affect their personalities as well.  Mercy is a rebel at heart.  Before she was a rebel without a cause (were-wolfs and their packs were just too big and she knew how small she was, before joining adam) now she has a pack and a cause and clearly intends to change things for the better (she doesn't take to female subservience very well does she?).  While anna is not at heart a rebel.  Instead I think she will work to help everyone get along and in the process, much like with a gardener, prune and guide things until it grows into a better more stable situation.

At least that's how things seem to me.  My concern/excitement is that when they meet I expect anna and mercy are going to wind up feeling each other's powers.  Stability meets change.  Could be interesting, I am confident they'll end up getting along, but the road to compatible cooperation could be rocky.




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Ellyll on June 19, 2009, 11:50:56 am
I think that's a very good assessment of the basic differences between the two.  I like it.  :)
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: Avarel on June 19, 2009, 08:36:01 pm
I like comparing Anna to a gardener...

So very true. Mercy, on the other hand, is a construction worker/ demolition expert.
Title: Re: Mercy and Anna
Post by: The Deposed King on June 20, 2009, 10:59:11 am
Glad you like.  ;)



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Kaniya20 on July 28, 2009, 12:15:39 am
I dont know if anybody has mentioned it I didnt read all of them but in the last AandO I think she pretty well told us that brans berserker was from loosing himself. His mother stole is will and his mind from him when she changed him when he broke free, there was nothing but rage in him, a literal madness that only someone he really loved would be safe from. When he lost BJW again he lost himself and his wolf's grief nearly sent his human mind into another berserker rage. It might be about who has dominance within him, if he shuts his mind off from whatever trauma happens as a preservation reflex, the natural killing instinct of the wolf literally rule and only self preservation of blood and life keep certain people safe. But what he realized with BJW was that the mating bond gave his wolf peace, and grounded it, stability between the two of them. But how much he loved her and loosing her is what nearly broke him. So he sought a mating bond, and he choose the most self centered, egotistical bitch of a woman he could find so he wouldn't be able to love her and probably showed her to his wolf.  The wolves mated, and Leah fell in love with him, but bran can't love her. So you can feel for her, but until she's gets over herself, you cant really like her. SO brans darkness is the product of a shattered mind, heart and predatory blood lust. Only a mating bond and keep it in check.
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: The Deposed King on July 28, 2009, 03:30:55 pm
I dont know if anybody has mentioned it I didnt read all of them but in the last AandO I think she pretty well told us that brans berserker was from loosing himself. His mother stole is will and his mind from him when she changed him when he broke free, there was nothing but rage in him, a literal madness that only someone he really loved would be safe from. When he lost BJW again he lost himself and his wolf's grief nearly sent his human mind into another berserker rage. It might be about who has dominance within him, if he shuts his mind off from whatever trauma happens as a preservation reflex, the natural killing instinct of the wolf literally rule and only self preservation of blood and life keep certain people safe. But what he realized with BJW was that the mating bond gave his wolf peace, and grounded it, stability between the two of them. But how much he loved her and loosing her is what nearly broke him. So he sought a mating bond, and he choose the most self centered, egotistical bitch of a woman he could find so he wouldn't be able to love her and probably showed her to his wolf.  The wolves mated, and Leah fell in love with him, but bran can't love her. So you can feel for her, but until she's gets over herself, you cant really like her. SO brans darkness is the product of a shattered mind, heart and predatory blood lust. Only a mating bond and keep it in check.

Well at the end of A&O it looked like the mate bond wasn't enough to contain him, and it took an Omega plus a Son to ground out the rage.  Now whether that was in spite of or in addition too his current mate bond is anyone's guess.


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Bran and Leah
Post by: Omega 303 on August 02, 2009, 06:44:06 pm
I dont know if anybody has mentioned it I didnt read all of them but in the last AandO I think she pretty well told us that brans berserker was from loosing himself. His mother stole is will and his mind from him when she changed him when he broke free, there was nothing but rage in him, a literal madness that only someone he really loved would be safe from. When he lost BJW again he lost himself and his wolf's grief nearly sent his human mind into another berserker rage. It might be about who has dominance within him, if he shuts his mind off from whatever trauma happens as a preservation reflex, the natural killing instinct of the wolf literally rule and only self preservation of blood and life keep certain people safe. But what he realized with BJW was that the mating bond gave his wolf peace, and grounded it, stability between the two of them. But how much he loved her and loosing her is what nearly broke him. So he sought a mating bond, and he choose the most self centered, egotistical bitch of a woman he could find so he wouldn't be able to love her and probably showed her to his wolf.  The wolves mated, and Leah fell in love with him, but bran can't love her. So you can feel for her, but until she's gets over herself, you cant really like her. SO brans darkness is the product of a shattered mind, heart and predatory blood lust. Only a mating bond and keep it in check.

Well at the end of A&O it looked like the mate bond wasn't enough to contain him, and it took an Omega plus a Son to ground out the rage.  Now whether that was in spite of or in addition too his current mate bond is anyone's guess.


The Deposed King





Yes your right at the end it did take Anna and Charles but that was because of the witch and the then and there moment. It also mentioned when Bran returned home after leaving Charles' the beserker started to stir again so in order to settle it back down it took his phyical relationship with Leah to put it back somewhat under control. So leah does contribute a lot when it come to helping him keep the beast at bay
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Avarel on September 02, 2009, 09:07:51 pm
I had a thought and it doesn't belong in HG spoilers, so I put it here.

Some Dominants want responsibility for everything and everyone (Alpha). Some don't. (Asil, CHarles, Warren, etc)

Samuel seems to fit the Alpha idea, yet he has no pack separate from his father's. Perhaps that is part of his problem, why he is falling apart?
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: opramum on September 02, 2009, 09:11:24 pm
Wonder if Sam will be singing at Tumbleweed Festival THIS weekend in Richland? :-whistle
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Pendle on September 03, 2009, 12:49:21 am
Samuel seems to fit the Alpha idea, yet he has no pack separate from his father's. Perhaps that is part of his problem, why he is falling apart?

Perhaps it is a reason. Samuel doesn't want to be part of a pack because he doesn't want to be responsible for anyone, and maybe he doesn't want anyone to be responsible for him. (Packs share the burdens, but he kind of wants to bare his own problems without dragging others down with him.)

But I think he needs a pack. In IK he was better in himself when he looking after Mercy. It took his mind of himself, like a respite from his own problems, and he wasn't fallng apart then, was he? But I don't think he necessarily needs to be Alpha though, he's spent too much time looking out for everyone else, Bran for example. Though it's probably better if he stays away from Bran's pack.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Ellyll on September 03, 2009, 06:43:02 am
I think Sam feels responsibility as a dominant, plus the extra sense of responsibility that makes him a doctor.  But he's very, very, very old, and he's been being responsible for everyone around him for a very long time.  And he's broken now.  Maybe because he's old, and maybe because what he did to Mercy was a self-betrayal as much as a betrayal of her.  Or maybe all of the above, plus stuff we haven't seen yet.  I think he doesn't have a pack because he can't handle it right now.  He can't be both things at the same time: the guy who's responsible for everyone else; and the guy who's broken and needs care (or at least space). 
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Mike Briggs on September 03, 2009, 01:30:26 pm
For the record, Silver Borne is going to feature lots of changes for Samuel.  First, of course, he has to pretty much go off the deep end (poor Samuel).  However, Patty promises she has some good things in store for him.  Don't think he's getting a Pack . . . but suspect he's getting a sweetie who will live as long as he does. 

Lone wolves don't do well, but sometimes two people are pack enough.  :D
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Ellyll on September 03, 2009, 01:37:49 pm
First, of course, he has to pretty much go off the deep end (poor Samuel).

I thought he might.  Poor Samuel.  He's kind of my favorite (although Charles is moving right up there, book by book).  I can't wait to read it.  And it's very comforting to know he'll be happy in the end.  After lots more trauma, of course.  >D
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: cavaliergirl on September 03, 2009, 04:38:26 pm
For the record, Silver Borne is going to feature lots of changes for Samuel.  First, of course, he has to pretty much go off the deep end (poor Samuel).  However, Patty promises she has some good things in store for him.  Don't think he's getting a Pack . . . but suspect he's getting a sweetie who will live as long as he does. 

Lone wolves don't do well, but sometimes two people are pack enough.  :D

female wolves aren't allowed to be lone wolves.  and this nixes the Samuel-Kara Beckworth or Samuel-Sage speculation.  I'm guessing either Nemane or an unknown fae. Fae can have children and some are immortal.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: cavaliergirl on September 03, 2009, 04:41:50 pm
or maybe instead of a fae, a vampire?  although he doesn't like them and is even afraid of them.  no sam-marsilia pairing in the future.  that would be too weird.

Charles did say in Hunting Ground that werewolves are european monsters, but that the Asians had their own kind who didn't like werewolves.  So maybe someone not fae, not werewolf or vampire, but some unknown supernatural?  (I rather like Nemane, and a Samuel-Nemane pairing would be interesting.) 
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: turtlezipp on September 07, 2009, 08:32:58 am
i just finished iron kissed.  Just wanted to say I loved it...and im not usually one to tell authors what to write due to the fact they don;t have to listen.  there has to be a woman for samuel  we cant leave him alone ack...its breaking my heart

Edited for Subject change. Elle.

lol i said the same thing about getting stefan the hook up too. :P
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: turtlezipp on September 07, 2009, 08:47:46 am
Leah may be spoiled,self-centered and a little full of herself, but I feel she really cares for Bran. It may hurt her to take second place to Bran's sons and his dead wife, but I have feeling she'll stand by him and never do any thing to lose her place by his side.

I'm not so sure about Leah really being there for Bran, I mean the way she should. I think that's why he looks to his sons for help and advice. And now that Anna's in the pack and is Charles's mate she has another reason to be bitter. I'm sure she's knows that Anna has been there for the Marrok when she wasn't, for instance, In CW when the Marrok went to Dr. Carter's funeral Leah wasn't by his side in fact she felt that it was his fault and that he was pretending to greive for his friend, and  told him not to go. But Anna comforted him and his sons where there for him. Either way she should have been by his side if it was his fault or not. If she wouldn't be so self-centered and hateful I feel the Marrock would truely fall in love with her. I know she's hurt but she doesn't have to stroke her ego by mistreating everyone else.

yea but when she got her feelings hurt from bran running off to help charles with the which in the cry wolf book, she was in he bed when he got back home.  dunno, but to me it said she missed him and was worried about him.  i think Leah is selfish, rude, and self-absorbed.  but i do think somewhere, down inside, she does love Bran in her own way.  i am still unclear as to whether or not Bran "loves" Leah, although i feel certain he does care about her in some way. (esp after the line in cry wolf where it said "tenderness welled up inside him; asleep she looked soft and vulnerable.  he pushed the tenderness away in that there was too much danger.".  says to me he cares about her in some small way at the least.  **shrug**

Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Mike Briggs on September 07, 2009, 11:30:40 am
For the record, Silver Borne is going to feature lots of changes for Samuel.  First, of course, he has to pretty much go off the deep end (poor Samuel).  However, Patty promises she has some good things in store for him.  Don't think he's getting a Pack . . . but suspect he's getting a sweetie who will live as long as he does. 

Lone wolves don't do well, but sometimes two people are pack enough.  :D

female wolves aren't allowed to be lone wolves.  and this nixes the Samuel-Kara Beckworth or Samuel-Sage speculation.  I'm guessing either Nemane or an unknown fae. Fae can have children and some are immortal.

OK, I DON'T have insider information on this, as I have no idea who Patty is thinking of as a sweetie for Samuel.  However, we talked about the "no lone wolf females" a while ago, and Patty said it's not an inviolate rule.  Also, given how dominant Samuel is, I suspect if he found a pretty little werewolf  lady he could probably get away with saying, "We're a pack.  Just the two of us.  Dad says so.  I say so. Even my brother Charles says so.   You got a problem with that?"    Something tells me not many wolves would argue the point. . .    With weres, just like with people, rules are seldom absolute.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Midangel on September 07, 2009, 11:46:33 am
Mike, you are the super duper awesome of the awesomeness!!!!

And since Patty is also the super duper awesome of awesomeness, we get awesomeness all around.  bOuNcY



Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Pendle on September 07, 2009, 11:47:07 am
Some rules are made to be broken.

No lone females. Daresay it's an archaic rule. Afterall women could look out for themselves better than most men.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Has on September 07, 2009, 12:16:25 pm
There is a lone female AKA as Kara. But shes pretty clever in avoiding wolves. :D but back on topic :P

Thank you Mike for the tidbits!!! :D
I cant wait until we meet Sam's mate!
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Vinity on September 07, 2009, 01:14:55 pm
Thanks Mike for the tidbit :D makes waiting harder. Gah!! Really need to work on that time travel thing....
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Pink Elephants on September 07, 2009, 01:47:24 pm
You when you figure it out let me know so that i can join you
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: charmed on September 08, 2009, 05:50:25 pm
Mike, you are the super duper awesome of the awesomeness!!!!

And since Patty is also the super duper awesome of awesomeness, we get awesomeness all around.  bOuNcY


I second this  :-LOVE :-LOVE :-LOVE
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Nifty on September 08, 2009, 05:58:26 pm
Quote
Gah!! Really need to work on that time travel thing....
You when you figure it out let me know so that i can join you

So, you see...there's this circle of standing stones in Scotland a few miles south of Inverness, and if you walk between the two king stones on one of the fire festival days you are able to travel through time.  Carrying a jewel with you will provide protection; focusing on someone in another time frame will help you steer; and making a human sacrifice before you travel will turbo-boost your travel.  Of course, you have to have the right genetic make-up or it doesn't work at all.  And you better be careful, because if you do it wrong, it IS possible that you'll get stuck in the in-between space...neither past nor present, unable to escape.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Janilee on September 08, 2009, 06:03:57 pm
Quote
Gah!! Really need to work on that time travel thing....
You when you figure it out let me know so that i can join you

So, you see...there's this circle of standing stones in Scotland a few miles south of Inverness, and if you walk between the two king stones on one of the fire festival days you are able to travel through time.  Carrying a jewel with you will provide protection; focusing on someone in another time frame will help you steer; and making a human sacrifice before you travel will turbo-boost your travel.  Of course, you have to have the right genetic make-up or it doesn't work at all.  And you better be careful, because if you do it wrong, it IS possible that you'll get stuck in the in-between space...neither past nor present, unable to escape.


LOL
Great cross reference.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Nifty on September 08, 2009, 06:08:34 pm
Quote
Gah!! Really need to work on that time travel thing....
You when you figure it out let me know so that i can join you

So, you see...there's this circle of standing stones in Scotland a few miles south of Inverness, and if you walk between the two king stones on one of the fire festival days you are able to travel through time.  Carrying a jewel with you will provide protection; focusing on someone in another time frame will help you steer; and making a human sacrifice before you travel will turbo-boost your travel.  Of course, you have to have the right genetic make-up or it doesn't work at all.  And you better be careful, because if you do it wrong, it IS possible that you'll get stuck in the in-between space...neither past nor present, unable to escape.


LOL
Great cross reference.

Only 13 days.  I'm gearing up!  Ha!
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: charmed on September 08, 2009, 06:11:47 pm
Gearing up and wandering off of the beaten path. :P
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Nifty on September 08, 2009, 06:14:48 pm
*hangs head*

SAM IS HOT!!!

There!  Back on point.  LOL :P
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: BigMama on September 20, 2009, 05:41:29 am
Bran is a successful Marrok because he loves ALL of the wolves under his command.  He is willing to share his power when needed and is sacrificial in his need to protect his wolves.  Leah is one of those.  He does not feel, however, that he can get too close to her because of the dange to all of the wolves if he loses the beserker.  I do believe he is begining to understand that the inclusion of Anna into his pack has changed everything. She has been the key to the incredible changes that have taken place in Charles, and I think she will become a catalyst to change in Bran and his relationship with Leah.  I do wonder a bit, however, if we are being set up to see him lose Leah--or at least come close to it. That would be the only way, IMO, that Bran would really have to analyze his relationship with his mate.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Midangel on September 20, 2009, 06:19:41 am
I don't know. Bran and Leah have been together for a long time. To be with someone that long, I would think Bran would know if he had feelings for her by now, especially if it's true lurrrve. It's possible to care for someone without love.

Leah is selfish, that's why Bran chose her. He uses her to keep the Berserker at bay. And while it's harsh of of Bran, I totally understand why he chose her so he can control it. Especially after what we learnt in Hunting Ground.

I hope Leah does go away. :P Sorry, Leah is not a character I can sympathise with or like.  It would be nice, in the future perhaps, that Bran meets someone who he can rule the pack with equally and not shoulder the burden of it on his own shoulders.

 I don't think it's good enough that just the females in Aspen Creek like Leah. There is the whole wolves in the Northern American pack to consider, and I just don't see Leah as born leader. The only reason she has the power she does now is because she can pull on Bran's power.
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: kingken on September 21, 2009, 02:51:23 pm
 bOuNcY  Exciting. But I was still hoping Sam would end up with Mercy....
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: Patti L. on September 21, 2009, 05:51:57 pm
*hangs head*

SAM IS HOT!!!

There!  Back on point.  LOL :P

For some reason I first read that as "Bangs head".
'cus you wanna hear Sam sing & all.
Title: Family gathering
Post by: ladylynx on September 29, 2009, 01:14:26 pm
You know some thing. It would be great for a book to come out where Anna,Charles,Adam, Sam and Mercy, Sam's new lover are all in it together. Basically some sort of disaster that drags the family together. It would give Anna a chance to met Mercy and Adam a chance to tease Charles along with Sam as well. Since it's well known that the Marrok thinks of Mercy as his daughter.

It would also be fun to watch Adam squirm under Bran's watchful eye as well about him marrying Mercy. We know that Bran approves of their love affair, but what father has never made their new son-in-law squirm before?  
Title: Re: Family gathering
Post by: Zealith on September 29, 2009, 02:10:19 pm
Due to time line, I doubt it will happen. Though you never know, A&O could catch up to MT timewise.
Title: Re: Family gathering
Post by: midnight on September 30, 2009, 04:39:36 am
You know some thing. It would be great for a book to come out where Anna,Charles,Adam, Sam and Mercy, Sam's new lover are all in it together. Basically some sort of disaster that drags the family together. It would give Anna a chance to met Mercy and Adam a chance to tease Charles along with Sam as well. Since it's well known that the Marrok thinks of Mercy as his daughter.

It would also be fun to watch Adam squirm under Bran's watchful eye as well about him marrying Mercy. We know that Bran approves of their love affair, but what father has never made their new son-in-law squirm before? 


Hehe you and me think alike ladylynx. That would be such a fun scene to read.  :D LOL :D
Title: Re: Family gathering
Post by: gryphon340 on September 30, 2009, 05:56:27 am
or Book
Title: Re: Family gathering
Post by: ladylynx on September 30, 2009, 12:56:56 pm
I think a book of all of them together would be remarkable. It good be fun and humorous. Seeing what type of effect Anna's abilities would have on Mercy and then to see what Sam's new lover would think of her sister in laws.   

Then the guys teasing Charles and the Marrok making Adam squirm just for the heck of it. Also even having Mercy teasing Charles as well. Cause I don't think she is truly afraid of him. We know she spent a whole summer learning how to work on cars from him. Plus, I think he see's her as his little sister. So you would have big bad Charles giving Adam the big brother speech about hurting his little sister.

Not only that, I think he would be concern about what happen to her as well. We know the Marrok was concern about Mercy's welfare. I think Charles would too. Plus it would give Anna a chance to talk to her and make sure she is fine as well.
Title: Re: Family gathering
Post by: The Deposed King on October 01, 2009, 08:21:02 am
it would be fun and interesting.


the deposed king
Title: I Like Leah
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 03, 2009, 09:53:47 am
For my first post here I decided to lead off with something a bit controversial: I like Leah. and I wonder if I am the only one here who feels this way.

Its not that I think she's a wonderful person or anything. But I do have a sneaking sympathy for her. Yes, she's selfish and bitchy and a whiny fashion plate but look at the reasons for her behavior.

Her husband does not love her. He doesn't even respect her. And everyone knows it.

I expect her reasons for marrying him were very shallow; she wanted status and a well-stocked wardrobe. But AFIK their marriage goes back to before Mercy was born. That's at least thirty-odd years and perhaps more. Perhaps a lot more. Given enough time even the shallowest of women would eventually figure out that lots of toys and unearned rank are poor recompense for loneliness.

And Bran is far from blameless here. People get married for all kinds of reasons good and bad. But it is one thing to marry someone you don't love and a very different matter to decide that you will not, under any circumstances, allow yourself to become close to them. And not bother to inform them of this little resolution of yours before the wedding.

When unhappy people turn inward on themselves others can muster considerable sympathy for them When they lash out as a way of mitigating their pain it is a lot harder to see anything except bad behavior. Think Ben here. But I do hope someone *cough*Anna*cough* looks beneath the surface and sees how unhappy she is. Or else they may just end up pulling her out of the river one day.

BTW, I feel that our author did an excellent job of characterization to imply so much complexity in so little space. A lot of other writers could learn from her.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Janilee on October 03, 2009, 09:59:47 am
Do you like Leah, herself, or the way her characterization fills a plot need?
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Carradee on October 03, 2009, 10:42:48 am
I, too, feel sorry for Leah, but I still don't like her.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: charmed on October 03, 2009, 05:01:25 pm
I'm with Carradee. Bran is at fault, but so is Leah.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Ellyll on October 03, 2009, 05:34:15 pm
And Bran is far from blameless here. People get married for all kinds of reasons good and bad. But it is one thing to marry someone you don't love and a very different matter to decide that you will not, under any circumstances, allow yourself to become close to them. And not bother to inform them of this little resolution of yours before the wedding.

I have a minor quibble here.  We don't actually know that Bran didn't tell Leah this before the wedding.  He may very well have made everything clear to Leah, and she may have decided to regret the bargain later.  I can see a situation where she agreed to marry him for the status only, having been told in advance that it would never be a marriage of affection. 
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: charmed on October 03, 2009, 05:37:28 pm
That is definitely possible but, she has chosen to stay. I don't knwo about the mate bond, but she could divorce Bran, yet she hasn't.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Patti L. on October 03, 2009, 05:40:44 pm
And remember that as recently as Victorian times - which could be when they married - marrying for love was considered indulgent.  MOST matches were made with other criteria in mind.  We still, in other countries, and rarely in the so-called "first world" with immigrants, see deaths because someone spurned the marriage arranged by their families, or for leaving a husband.  And werewolves tend to be traditionalists.  Leah may have thought she'd be more in the position that Isabelle had in the Chicago pack that Anna came from.
Which, I'm sorry, I can't join the sentiment of the thread; so far I don't like Leah.  If or when we see more of her, I might get to like her better, but right now, no.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Ellyll on October 03, 2009, 05:43:40 pm
That is definitely possible but, she has chosen to stay. I don't knwo about the mate bond, but she could divorce Bran, yet she hasn't.

Well, that's part of what I mean.  All I was saying was that she may very well have gone into the marriage/mating with open eyes.  We don't know yet.

I'm with you, Patti.  I just don't like her.  People make their own choices about how to handle their life situations, and Leah has chosen to be a very unpleasant person and a real bully.  Unhappiness doesn't excuse that. 
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: gryphon340 on October 03, 2009, 05:55:05 pm
i dislike her, but pity her sitaution.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: primalSCREAM on October 04, 2009, 01:56:52 pm
The mate bond is a very strong thing...it's probably more so for Bran since he's the Marok....maybe all the intimate stuff that goes along with the mate bond is enough to keep them together and put up with the regular human stuff.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Midangel on October 04, 2009, 02:04:13 pm
Die...Leah...DIE!!!!!!! 

Oops, got carried away.   :-[


Yeah, I'm not a fan of Leah, if you can guess. Bullies are the lowest of the low, and I agree with you, Ellyll. Leah has made her choices, and I have a feeling, she would be exactly the same if she wasn't chosen by Bran. Didn't Bran chose her because of her horrible attributes in her personality?

While it must suck for Leah to have a husband who doesn't love her, after what we learnt about Bran in Hunting Ground, I can understand why he uses Leah as he did and does.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: gryphon340 on October 04, 2009, 04:55:06 pm
being the pigdog that I am, the s*x between them must totally mind bending
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 05, 2009, 03:09:42 pm
That is definitely possible but, she has chosen to stay. I don't knwo about the mate bond, but she could divorce Bran, yet she hasn't.

Can she? I seem to recall Mercy saying something about if Adam had been mated to his ex they'd still be together. And that was just with the mating bond on one side of the relationship. Walking away from a mating sounds a lot harder than merely getting a divorce.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Patti L. on October 05, 2009, 03:11:17 pm
It's still possible; Bran offers to show Mercy how to dissolve hers.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: ppbwashu on October 05, 2009, 03:18:43 pm
Wow, lot of energy about Leah!  Personally, I know people like her, and I've mentally relegated her character to the same bin I put those people:  ignore unless forced to do otherwise.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 05, 2009, 03:29:38 pm

While it must suck for Leah to have a husband who doesn't love her, after what we learnt about Bran in Hunting Ground, I can understand why he uses Leah as he did and does.


So because she is unlikeable its all right for him to use her like that?

I admit I do have a fondness for characters that start out unsympathetic and later grow on you. Like Ben.  :)
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Midangel on October 05, 2009, 03:41:44 pm

While it must suck for Leah to have a husband who doesn't love her, after what we learnt about Bran in Hunting Ground, I can understand why he uses Leah as he did and does.


So because she is unlikeable its all right for him to use her like that?

I admit I do have a fondness for characters that start out unsympathetic and later grow on you. Like Ben.  :)

I didn't say that. ;)

I said that I can understand why Bran treats her the way he does. Sucky of Bran, but understandable regarding the the awe-fearing power that is inside of him.

I don't think Leah is a very sympathetic character. Instead of taking her issues out with Bran herself, she punishes everyone around her and bullies her way around. Not a trait in a character that I like. Also, her trying to harm Mercy, that's another strike.

Since she likes the position and power, she stays with Bran. If she didn't want to deal with him, she could have left him. I don't think Bran would make her stay.

I think Patty said in a previous chat, that while Bran will never betray or leave Leah, Leah doesn't have the same compulsion.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 05, 2009, 04:02:56 pm

I didn't say that. ;)

I said that I can understand why Bran treats her the way he does. Sucky of Bran, but understandable regarding the the awe-fearing power that is inside of him.

Sorry, I didn't quite get the distinction. Yes, it is understandable in that it makes sense, which is not the same as it being right.



I don't think Leah is a very sympathetic character. Instead of taking her issues out with Bran herself, she punishes everyone around her and bullies her way around. Not a trait in a character that I like. Also, her trying to harm Mercy, that's another strike.

Yes, attempted homicide is a trifle difficult to forgive, although werewolf culture seems to have a much higher tolerance for interpersonal violence.



Since she likes the position and power, she stays with Bran. If she didn't want to deal with him, she could have left him. I don't think Bran would make her stay.

I seem to remember Mercy making a point about how possessive and protective Bran was about those he considers his. Or perhaps it was Charles in reference to Anna.




I think Patty said in a previous chat, that while Bran will never betray or leave Leah, Leah doesn't have the same compulsion.

Does that mean the mating is only one way? I thought he had to be her mate also for her to be able to use his mojo.

Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Ellyll on October 05, 2009, 04:09:36 pm


Since she likes the position and power, she stays with Bran. If she didn't want to deal with him, she could have left him. I don't think Bran would make her stay.

I seem to remember Mercy making a point about how possessive and protective Bran was about those he considers his. Or perhaps it was Charles in reference to Anna.

Protective, yes.  I don't think it's ever been implied that Bran is the sort of possessive that would keep Leah if she wanted to leave him.


I think Patty said in a previous chat, that while Bran will never betray or leave Leah, Leah doesn't have the same compulsion.

Does that mean the mating is only one way? I thought he had to be her mate also for her to be able to use his mojo.


I don't see where you derive a one-way mate bond from that.  It speaks more to the characters and inclinations of the two.  Nothing about the mate bond says it makes the partners unable to betray or leave each other. 
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Patti L. on October 05, 2009, 04:15:38 pm
Yeah, consider Leo & Isabelle in Chicago...
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 05, 2009, 04:18:19 pm
But Isabelle was crazy.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Patti L. on October 05, 2009, 04:39:42 pm
And Leah isn't? 
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: charmed on October 05, 2009, 04:42:04 pm
We have no proof that she is. Poor behavior and violent behavior are not automatic symptoms of insanity.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Patti L. on October 05, 2009, 04:55:29 pm
Quite true, although "crazy" and "insane" aren't precisely the same thing.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 06, 2009, 03:09:08 pm
And Leah isn't?  

That thought occurred to me about five minutes after I logged off for the evening.  LOL

I get the feeling that she could be headed toward crazy, which is why I put in that line about possibly pulling her out of the river one day. She is very high strung and deeply overwrought. And we've seen multiple instances of how brittle older wolves can get.

Her attack on Mercy didn't look like the act of someone who was thinking clearly. What was she going to say if it had succeeded? The fang fairy did it?
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: deadfrog on October 06, 2009, 03:11:19 pm
I also tend towards liking Leah. Despite the fact that she tried to kill Mercy. Well, Mercy likes to push wolves and see what she can get away with. Maybe Leah is testing what she can get away with, too. Maybe she knows from past experience that Bran will intervene before she can carry out her intention? It may just be one of Leah's ways to attract Bran's attention.

What we know about Leah is that Bran picked her because he does not think that he could ever fall in love with her. His sons see that Bran and Leah do not match well on the human side, and don't agree with their father's reasoning for choosing and staying with Leah.

But when I think of the scene at the end of "Cry Wolf", in which Bran returns after they have slain the witch, I wonder if both of them feel more for the other party then they care to admit. Bran finds Leah sleeping in his bed, although it remains open if it was the wolf or the woman who chose to sleep in her mate's bed. But we learn that Bran suppresses a feeling of warmth and tenderness towards her, something he does not want to feel towards Leah. So maybe there is more between them than the wolves' mate bond.

Regarding the question how long Bran and Leah have been married. Wasn't it stated somewhere that Bran found Leah when Charles was around 20 years old?
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 06, 2009, 03:30:20 pm
I can't recall it, and I don't see a date listed for their wedding on either of their ID cards. If she's that old then it would lend weight to the idea that Leah is getting a bit unstable.
Title: Re: I Like Leah
Post by: Zealith on October 06, 2009, 07:13:53 pm
Her attack on Mercy didn't look like the act of someone who was thinking clearly. What was she going to say if it had succeeded? The fang fairy did it?

How about oops?
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: deadfrog on October 07, 2009, 08:39:35 pm
Old and traditional wolves don't even admit that female wolves have any dominance of their own. By tradition the position of an unmated female is at the bottom of the pack. In order to gain position they have to choose a mate. Mercy was surprised to learn that Honey was considered a very dominant wolf before she mated with Peter, and even more surprised that Adam admitted this. So the packs are changing but they are changing slowly.

We know that Leah pulls on Bran's power because she did this when she tried to establish her dominance over Anna. I wonder how dominant she was before Bran chose her for a mate. I wonder if she is bitter that other wolves never saw her as anything but Bran's (irritating) sidekick. Anna is Charles' mate but being Omega she holds a high rank in the pack independent of Charles' position. This is more than any other female wolf could hope for.

I used to think that Leah was ranking rather low on the dominance scale before she met Bran but she may have been very dominant - possibly another reason for Bran choosing her to control his wolf, in addition to her lovely personality. I don't say that Leah is a born leader. But an urge to lead must be extremely frustrating in a culture that considers being female and a leader mutually exclusive.

I currently don't have enough information about Leah, so I withhold judgment. I think it highly unlikely, though, that Bran has any desire to meet someone who can be his equal in ruling the pack. If he did, he would not pursue a relationship. That person would be someone he might actually admire which in turn might lead to stronger emotional attachment than he is willing to risk. I agree with the people who said that he might feel a stronger attachment to Leah than he is admitting to himself.

If Leah knows why Bran has chosen her for his mate, she might even wonder if he would leave her if she became sympathetic or likable. I don't see her going away except by dying - and in that case Bran might actually discover that her death will affect him just as strongly as his first wife's death did. Mating bonds can be tricky. Sometimes werewolves live for years with human spouses, and the wolf part does not form an attachment (Adam and his ex). Sometimes such an attachment is formed without the human part being aware of it (as indicated by Bran telling Mercy that Sam suffered after she left because Sam was not aware that his wolf considered her his mate). Bran wanted a mating bond that stays exclusively on the wolf side - but this is hampered by the fact that the lines between wolf and man are not always clearcut.  

====
Edited to correct the naming mistake pointed out by charmed. 
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: charmed on October 08, 2009, 08:24:43 am
deadfrog, a quick clarification: Peter's mate is named Honey, not Holly. To our knowledge, there is no female named Holly in Adam's pack.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: ladylynx on October 08, 2009, 09:22:38 am
You know what would really throw the Marrok and the other wolves for a loop? Is bring Kitty from the Carrie Vaughn series into Ms. Brigg's world. She's not really a high level alpha like Leah or Anna or even Mercy, but she is a good leader and would make someone like the Marrok proud of her if she was part of any pack. She has that quality about her that is similar to Anna.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Zealith on October 08, 2009, 02:15:19 pm
She couldn't be an alpha in this world though. The males are too 'protective' to let that happen.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: alan on October 08, 2009, 02:44:27 pm
Yeah but didn't Mercy say that the were's need to catch up with modern time?  Maybe female alphas are there but just aren't recognized for what they are.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Elle on October 08, 2009, 03:53:02 pm
Let's keep the thread dedicated to the discussion of Leah v. Mercy and Anna. If you'd like to delve into a fantasy football-esque discussion of other authors' characters inserted in the Mercy World you guys are welcome to start a thread in the Weres Shared World section.

Elle
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Elle on October 08, 2009, 07:54:42 pm
I've split off and merged the discussion of the possibility of female alphas to the  Werewolf Revolution thread (http://hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=277.msg178282#new).

Elle
Title: Re: Sam Cornick: Tri-Cities' Own Folksinging Physician
Post by: wiccanmoonchild on October 15, 2009, 05:06:57 am
Just chiming in - my thoughts on Samuel - -

In a wolf pack, a pack forms by a wolf leaving the pack and becoming a lone wolf.  This wolf will eventually find a mate (usually another lone wolf) and then form a pack.  Now couple that with the human side and the need for love, contact and procreation, I think that I can foresee Samuel finding a mate for life.  He is a good guy and I think Patricia likes him.  I think he is in a dark place right now, but will emerge.  I think he may not form a new pack, but will find true love.  I don't think Mercy is his "true" love.  To live for so long and see so much death and loved ones die, must be torturous.  I hold out hope that he will find true love - he's an awesome character!

Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: kingken on October 31, 2009, 02:17:57 am
But if Samuel does find a mate and they breed/have babies which creates a family which creates a pack that is moving in on Adams territory... :( ??? do you think he would move back with Bran?
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: ladylynx on October 31, 2009, 04:41:55 am
Remember,the advice that Charles gave Anna when he asked her to come to Montana? The Marrok would send her any where she wanted to go , but he would make sure he sent her where he needed her? The same thing would apply for Sam if he got married. He would send Sam some place that needed a strong Alpha or a place to start a pack. He wouldn't let Sam intrude on Adam's territory at all.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Patti L. on October 31, 2009, 07:34:43 am
-- Or maybe the three of them would work it out so that Sam could have territory NEXT to the Columbia Basin pack?  Since things are hotting up there, what with more vampire & Fae activity, the Marrok might decide that he needs two strong, kind, trustworthy Alphas in the area.

Or, here's an idea; Anna's old Chicago pack currently has - unless things changed since the time of Moon Called & Alpha and Omega - a not very dominant alpha.  What if he talked Sam & his bride into going there & taking that pack over, healing it?
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: deadfrog on October 31, 2009, 10:14:04 am
Judging from the story as it has been told so far I would say that if Samuel find's a mate and they have babies, they are almost certainly not going to be werewolves. Not being wolves, they would not be part of a pack, just part of Sam's family. They might be Sam's pack in the way that David Christiansen considers his family pack but not in a sense that would create problems with the Columbia Basin pack.

I believe Sam is one of those wolves who don't want to be alpha. Didn't Mercy say that he is alpha for his patients, and therefore does not need more responsibility on his hands?

Sam is a healer and not a warrior (as stated by Charles), and I think a werewolf alpha needs to be a warrior first, no matter how dominant he is. An alpha is also expected to stabilize his wolves / pack, and he cannot do that if he is unstable himself. It will take some time before he'll be stable enough to lead his own pack. And before he'll be able to persuade Bran that he is stable enough to do so.

The Chikago pack has been run by its new alpha now for some time. I don't think Bran would interfere with that pack unless new trouble arises. Mind you, I don't think he would interfere if some stronger wolf decided to challenge its current alpha for leadership (as long as the challenger meets Bran's criteria).
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: little gray wolf on August 17, 2010, 02:00:07 pm
Bran wouldn't put Sam and adam so close. They'd get territorial
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Patti L. on August 17, 2010, 07:10:32 pm
I'm trying to remember... do Alpha mates go to the yearly gathering in Aspen Creek?  Won't it twist Leah's tail when Mercy shows up, mated to about the next highest alpha after hers?  O)
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Zealith on August 17, 2010, 07:18:03 pm
I'd love to see that, but my guess would be that they wouldn't. Wouldn't want to deal with the protective behavoir of the males.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Patti L. on August 17, 2010, 07:22:09 pm
Oh, Mercy's dealt with the "bad coyote in werewolf territory- as read by the yearly Alpha gathering" thing before, when she lived there.  But she was a little no-rank child then, not part of the gathering... now she's an Alpha's mate, and partly responsible for the discipline of her pack, and ranked just below Leah, not 'no-rank'.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Brittany on August 17, 2010, 07:36:37 pm
I'm trying to remember... do Alpha mates go to the yearly gathering in Aspen Creek?  Won't it twist Leah's tail when Mercy shows up, mated to about the next highest alpha after hers?  O)

I think they do, yes. It seems like they would, anyway... Even if mates don't usually attend, I can't see anyone, even Adam, stopping Mercy from going to Aspen Creek for one of those yearly Alpha gatherings if that's what she decided to do. And it seems like it would amuse Bran to see Adam's tail in a twist with Mercy there, so I don't think he'd do much to prevent it. :D And I would love to see Leah's reaction to Mercy being there, ranking just a little below her instead of barely registering on her werewolf status radar.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Elle on August 18, 2010, 12:23:28 am
I'm trying to remember... do Alpha mates go to the yearly gathering in Aspen Creek?  Won't it twist Leah's tail when Mercy shows up, mated to about the next highest alpha after hers?  O)

That's not in Aspen Creek. The conclave is in Bran's corporate headquarters in Colorado so Leah wouldn't be there or Mercy either. It's Alphas and seconds. No mates allowed.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Patti L. on August 18, 2010, 08:17:09 am
Ah, I was wondering, thank you.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: little gray wolf on August 20, 2010, 12:30:41 pm
In HG Charles said the men would get too teritorial of their mates :P
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: dee on September 28, 2010, 05:42:54 am
*off topic*

if only the alphas thirds were allowed to...will be funny to see how the other alphas reacte to warren's presence and his rank...... ;D.....assuming they already know about him
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: little gray wolf on September 28, 2010, 03:49:10 pm
They do let the thirds come. It's the top three in rank that go  bOuNcY
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Nifty on January 30, 2011, 06:28:47 pm
They do let the thirds come. It's the top three in rank that go  bOuNcY

In what months are the 2 Conclaves held?

October is the Changing month; February is the Execution month.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Elle on January 30, 2011, 06:32:00 pm
Patty's never said. The changing/execution may only be for the Aspen Creek pack. Maybe we'll find out in the next A&O book!
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: charmed on January 30, 2011, 06:34:11 pm
They do let the thirds come. It's the top three in rank that go  bOuNcY

In what months are the 2 Conclaves held?

October is the Changing month; February is the Execution month.

The Conclaves are July and January.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Elle on January 30, 2011, 06:42:33 pm
Ack! I've missed that!! Where is it?
Title: Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
Post by: Kristenann on October 26, 2014, 06:55:16 pm
Mercy has said in Bone Crossed that she has done a lot over the years in being raised in Bran's pack to make him angry, and when she wrecked his Porsche and he thought she was dead that was the worst. I'd love some scenes of a Bran POV of that wreck, and other things Mercy did to make him mad, including all her pranks. I wonder if he really spent time with baby Mercy or if he was mostly too busy.
Title: Re: Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
Post by: Itsy-Cat on October 28, 2014, 04:33:25 am
Mercy has said in Bone Crossed that she has done a lot over the years in being raised in Bran's pack to make him angry, and when she wrecked his Porsche and he thought she was dead that was the worst. I'd love some scenes of a Bran POV of that wreck, and other things Mercy did to make him mad, including all her pranks. I wonder if he really spent time with baby Mercy or if he was mostly too busy.

I think he did spend a lot of time with Mercy when she was a child. Not sure about as a baby, but there's lots of references in the books to how Bran thinks/Bran's favourite sayings etc, and stuff that Mercy probably wouldn't have picked up on if she hadn't been spending quite a lot of time around Bran.
E.g.
There's the story about the shoes, where Mercy mentions having spent a lot of legitimate time over at Bran's house; enough that it wasn't seen as unusual for her to have her scent there and be seen coming and going several times in the same day.

There's that part in Silver Bourne where she questions Mary Jo, deliberately using techniques that she says she grew up watching Bran use, so again, she must have spent time around Bran to have been able to watch and learn that stuff.
Don't know about everyone else, but I wondered if maybe she used to sit in Bran's study playing with lego bricks or toy cars or something on one side or the room, while sort of watching and listening to Bran dealing with pack members on the other side of the room or something?
Title: Re: Re: Roses in Winter | Shifting Shadows SPOILERS POSSIBLE
Post by: Janilee on October 28, 2014, 10:01:46 am
We've seen how the pack seems to drift through Adam's house daily. That probably also happens to Bran.
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: Patti L. on October 29, 2014, 05:11:26 pm
Definitely, if you read Alpha & Omega books, and "Roses in Winter".
Title: Re: Cornick family, born, married, & adopted, a gathering
Post by: BillG on October 30, 2014, 02:26:52 am
Asil, Bran's self-appointed gadfly, certainly feels free to drift in when he wants to.