The Hurog Family

Patricia Briggs' Books => The Weres => Mercy's Garage: General Series Topics & Themes Board => Topic started by: Patti L. on August 20, 2007, 10:14:28 am

Title: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on August 20, 2007, 10:14:28 am
So.  Now that they're outed, what do you bet that those who are public are deluged by people demanding to be turned?  How much of a mess do you suppose that is?  Do you think there are pressures on them to change agents for the government?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Morgaine0000 on August 20, 2007, 12:58:27 pm
The deluge may be tempered by the low odds of success and the steep consequence of failure.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Grey Drakkon on August 20, 2007, 03:39:50 pm
Yeah I'm sure there will be giant twits that will claim that the weres are just "trying to keep it to themselves!" :P 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Spryte on August 20, 2007, 04:56:44 pm
There are always twits like that. I can see the gov. trying to get some of their people turned, but I don't think It would be practical for them. They would lose more people than stayed alive, when it would be easier just to hire werewolves, or find weres that are already working for them and transfer them to another unit or task force or whatever. It would be a much more rational plan.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: jenniwee on August 20, 2007, 05:02:07 pm
Yeah, but the government has never been known for its practicality  ;).  I think Patty said something about Ben putting the fear of weres into some snot-nosed teenagers.  I thought they would be anti-were but maybe they'll be wannabes.

Actually a scene with Adam or Sam (or especially Bran) dissuading some idiot of their ideas would be extremely funny.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on August 20, 2007, 09:02:11 pm
There's also the matter of whether the outed weres have made it clear how dangerous it is to attempt the change, how low the chances of survival, before gov't types will give the idea up.
And people who think it would be an advantage for themselves, especially any who are afraid of /disgusted by aging may be willing to risk it anyway.

Then there are less legal organizations that are already nearly werewolf/fae cold-blooded toward the underlings, & might force some of them into attempting it.
Just to throw out some more 'what ifs'. :D
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Spryte on August 22, 2007, 01:33:36 pm
Yeah, but the government has never been known for its practicality  ;).  I think Patty said something about Ben putting the fear of weres into some snot-nosed teenagers.  I thought they would be anti-were but maybe they'll be wannabes.

Actually a scene with Adam or Sam (or especially Bran) dissuading some idiot of their ideas would be extremely funny.

or better yet if it was Ben doing the dissuading.  ;D
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on August 30, 2007, 11:26:56 pm
There are always twits like that. I can see the gov. trying to get some of their people turned, but I don't think It would be practical for them. They would lose more people than stayed alive, when it would be easier just to hire werewolves, or find weres that are already working for them and transfer them to another unit or task force or whatever. It would be a much more rational plan.
Did you know, Spryte that the US had trouble absorbing the returning troops from WWII back?  The government had EXPECTED an attrition rate so much higher than happened because of first the Russian push & second, the collapse of Japanese resistance after the bombs were dropped that they weren't prepared to deal with the live young men coming home.
Do you really believe that people who think sending others out to die for 'honor' would really care if they only got back one in ten?  Or one in twenty?

On a different note, I was reading the Bran & Leah debate, & it occurred to me to wonder: if a woman was 8 months pregnant & attacked by a werewolf, what would it do to her baby?  She might die & the baby live, but would it be were?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 01, 2007, 06:00:12 pm
Mmf, there's issues with both surviving the attack, and with the first change from what I gathered.  There seemed to be a lot of importance to have a dominant wolf around someone who's changing for the first time due to pain and the wolf taking over, which could lead them to running amok if they aren't reigned in. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on September 20, 2007, 11:06:33 am
Back on topic though. :) I think you hit the nail on the head about the difficulty in changing back. I think that any werewolf if they allow the wolf to have more control than their human side would run into problems in any scenario. That's the problem, I think with most new weres and why they're killed by the pack, the human can't control the wolf. So putting yourself in a situation where you relinquish the reins to wolf would be a bad thing.

I don't think when they are in wolf form the weres completely reliquish control. Remember when Sam freaked out in Mercy's van, he chilled out after awhile because Sam was back in control.
Also we seem to be forgeting the power of dominance and alphas. ;)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Iris101 on September 20, 2007, 01:48:06 pm
I dont think the depression affects how long you can stay a wolf because after Mercy left, didnt Sam spend most of his time as a wolf?

(Sorry it wont let me insert the quote thingy  :-\ )
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Spryte on October 04, 2007, 12:08:04 pm
I think that's whaqt Bran says in mooncalled.
Maybe it's just a response they use to escape pain... letting the wolf take control may make it easier.
Just a thought.
It reminded me of the scenario that came up in the last short story in the On the Prowl anthology.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Phe on October 12, 2007, 08:58:05 am
It could be that for the animal mind, the emotions are simpler and thereby easier to deal with or ignore. Perhaps too, there is a need for escaping the ever active and admittedly paranoid human psyche. They may just need a break, and giving into the wolf, is a lot more theraputic.

Or at least, an obvious cry for help.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on October 14, 2007, 09:11:49 am
plus i think that letting the wolf take control sometimes lets tham get rid of human nature and emotions and lets them slip into a sort of relaxed state of mind
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on October 15, 2007, 08:03:52 am
haha It seems odd.

"How do you relax?"
"I turn into a vicious animal."
"Okay."
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on October 15, 2007, 09:15:14 am
Well, they aren't inherently vicious if they're not attacked or hungry.  But it's a very pure state of mind & emotion.

That aside, doesn't this discussion belong in 'lone wolves' or something?  We're talking about people who have already been changed, not wannabes.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on October 15, 2007, 01:30:15 pm
haha It seems odd.

"How do you relax?"
"I turn into a vicious animal."
"Okay."
lol nice but in the books mercy says that they are no more vicious than a grizzly bear or a great white, they only attack when they are attacked.  and yeah i guess patti L is right this isn't really about wannabes anymore is it?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: jenglows on October 15, 2007, 03:06:10 pm
lol nice but in the books mercy says that they are no more vicious than a grizzly bear or a great white, they only attack when they are attacked.  and yeah i guess patti L is right this isn't really about wannabes anymore is it?

 I think Mercy is repeating what the Vet(dead guy, can't remember his name) said to her when she was young about the nature of werewolves. But, he changes his mind about that assesment once he becomes one :)  I think maybe it's more accurate to say that some Were's are like a typical grizzly but some are more like an unbalanced grizzly that thinks you are standing between her and her cubs, eh?  :)

Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on October 20, 2007, 12:28:00 pm
So?  What are you doing to bring it back?
How cool would it be to BE a granny & become young again through werewolfism, knowing you wouldn't have to bear any more children, clean up after & raise them?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Spryte on October 21, 2007, 01:47:53 pm
well... i s'pose it would depend on the Granny in question...
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on October 21, 2007, 01:49:29 pm
Imagine yourself 50 years from now.  Or your grandmother(s)  Or other older women you know.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on October 22, 2007, 08:13:34 am
My grandmother is enjoying her retirement. We barely ever see her anymore she's touring the world. I'm not sure if she would want to be a werewolf. She would have to go back to work to support herself.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Spryte on October 22, 2007, 06:18:35 pm
Hmmmmm....... well....... Depending on the financial situation I suppose I would want to be a werewolf.

It would give you a lot more time to do all those things that you wanted to do but never got a chance...

I don't think I would mind going back to work.... that's a dependent factor too.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on November 30, 2007, 07:17:17 pm
So, trying to meld the love fest and the topic, any characters you suspect would want to be werewolves?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 30, 2007, 07:34:49 pm
kyle was both dissappointed and relieved that he wouldn't become a were when warren scratched him

so he may decide to become a were after all

and thanks for keeping us on task patti ;) , we just love the book too much :D
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on November 30, 2007, 07:37:33 pm
Yep.  Wonder if Tony the cop would want to?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 30, 2007, 07:41:09 pm
i think that he is just fine with being a human, though it is something to think about.  what about any other policmen - gain stregnth, agility - maybe the captain, he is older and i think he could want to stay and have a younger body again
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on November 30, 2007, 07:43:17 pm
And the senses would help in detection, as the strength would be good in dealing with violent 'perps'.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 30, 2007, 07:45:03 pm
exactly i wonder if that would ever happen?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Iris101 on November 30, 2007, 08:35:42 pm
I doubt it...besides what would Tonys G/F do if she found out?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on November 30, 2007, 08:43:43 pm
Considering he won't declare just from being a regular cop, what has she got to say?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on December 02, 2007, 02:32:39 pm
and would she really find it a problem, she was okay with zee and doesn't seem really upset that her son is working for mercy - who dated the alpha were
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on December 02, 2007, 02:47:31 pm
Ah, but that's at a remove.  Consider the liberals who are all, 'Black rights!' and 'Gay rights!' until it hits their own families!
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on December 02, 2007, 03:00:13 pm
that is very true.  i guess she may not enjoy it much when it is in her life all the time
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on December 02, 2007, 03:05:04 pm
Don't you just hate the way I argue both sides of the question, though? <grin>
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on December 02, 2007, 03:10:04 pm
not necessarily, it makes for very interesting conversation  :D
-i argue both sides too :D
do you think that she would ever want to become a were?  she already has children, and she would benifit for her job and health

plus wouldn't it hurt tony's actual job as an undercover cop to become a were - he probably won't have sam's control over his emotions, and his denser build wouldn't be able to be very chameleon-ish, now would it?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Iris101 on December 02, 2007, 04:18:18 pm
I dont think she would want to...for some reason she strikes me as a person who doesnt want anything special in her life that she cant do for herself.  And becoming a were, I think, would go against that...

Tony could benefit from it but IDK I still dont think he would do it for some reason...
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Rob on December 02, 2007, 04:23:21 pm
Tony strikes me as someone who is happy with himself as is and doesn't have any need for an upgrade.  And someone who would consider the benefits to be not worth the drawbacks.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on December 02, 2007, 05:07:42 pm
Okay.  So, not Tony.  Who else in the books can you see wanting to be werewolves?  How about the girl-victim's parents?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Zealith on December 03, 2007, 04:04:36 pm
Right now, I think they're to scared to even contemplate it.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on December 04, 2007, 05:04:21 am
Well since most of the outed wolves are in the military perhaps some soliders would be interested.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on December 04, 2007, 09:33:02 am
Aaak!  That leads into the 'government shock troops &/or experimental corps' again.  How about turning it around?  What about 4F types who wanted to be in the military but flunked physical requirements?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Ellyll on December 04, 2007, 11:16:22 am
Now we're in Captain America territory.  :D
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on December 04, 2007, 02:38:28 pm
As we should be.  Isn't a version of that what gave Bran Charles' mother, for the short time he had her?  And isn't this for fun?  See the title of the thread, everyone, this was part of what I was hoping we'd get our teeth into here.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Ellyll on December 04, 2007, 03:24:19 pm
Well, there was that comment about how some wolves had been "approached" by government interests, by which I read "blackmailed", before they came out.  No reason why that still couldn't happen.  They'd just try to use different leverage.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Talking_Mouse on December 04, 2007, 03:52:25 pm
I really doubt that Sylvia Sandoval (Tony's GF) would want to try to be a werewolf.  She strikes me as a woman who values security for her family over benefits to herself.  She has young children, and she does not have a husband to take care of those children if something happens to her.  That Tony may be willing to raise her children is a moot point, to her, since they are not married (yet) or even close to that (again yet).  She has a better than even chance of dieing trying to become a werewolf, and then she has to learn to control her wolf, again a chance to die.  My read on her is that without a very firm safety net for her kids, she would not do anything that might interfere with her ability to provide for her family. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Iris101 on December 04, 2007, 04:22:33 pm
I agree :)  I can see Jessie and Gabriel (im pretty sure thats his name) becoming weres though
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Talking_Mouse on December 04, 2007, 04:29:40 pm
But would the gov't really want to "make" many soldiers werewolves?  These people would be loyal to their alpha and to Bran above loyalty to the US.  This works well on an individual basis (I can be more devoted to my version of Deity than to my gov't, while still being a very good soldier because I do not see any conflict between my oath to defend the Constitution and my duty to my Deity (speaking as a reservist and a believer)).  There have been wolves in the military and they do well, we know from MC, but there has been no large scale creation of werewolves by the military.  The men (and I am focusing on males here, due to most werewolves being male) have all either joined the military of their own accord, or having been drafted, find that they do well in the military and decide to stay in.  They have each made an individual choice on how to deal with being a wolf and being a solider.

However, making all the new recruits werewolves, besides the high cost in terms of lives when most do not make the transition to wolf, would be the hight of foolishness in terms of drowning.  Werewolves drown rather easily.  So being a Navy Seal and being a werewolf is out, being in the Navy and being a werewolf is rather out. Marines have to function as well at sea as on land (or at least they are supposed to).  This leaves the Army and Air Force.  Now that the wolves are out, I can see the Army building a new special forces team around werewolves -- but it would be small and very secret. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Ellyll on December 04, 2007, 04:32:59 pm
I think you're right on both counts.  The loyalty thing would be an issue, although it's possible that any agency or government, or whatever, might not realize that.  I also agree that the Army, or any other group, would want to go for a small, secret team. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Temari on March 05, 2008, 02:15:22 am
Once the weres became public I would think they'd be really bothered by one group of people asking to be changed - those who were facing death soon. So many people who had a terminal illness, and also people who were old. Maybe also those who'd had really bad injuries like becoming totally paralysed. Not all would want to, but maybe I think as much as half would, and that would be a lot of people over all the US.

Be really difficult though once it was public, as it's kind-of like Euthanasia, with just a small chance of it not being so. And I don't think that's legal in any US states? So if it's not done in secret then the wolf who's turning someone would be in a lot of trouble.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Temari on March 05, 2008, 02:18:06 am
I was wondering about what proportion of the wolves had forced changes as supposed to voluntary. In the books there's a lot with forced changes, but I think that's mainly because they have interesting stories to tell! Since weres are supposed not to do forced changes I'd expect most of them to be voluntary.

Any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 05, 2008, 08:54:53 am
This could cross post into legislation of werewolves, because Temari is right, there would be dying people who would opt for the small chance of long & extremely healthy life, even with some drawbacks, over lingering painful death; and for some it would be a kind of 'suicide by cop' situation.  They might not care which way it went, as long as the slow deterioration was stopped.
And what kind of werewolves would such people make?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Faellie on March 05, 2008, 09:00:33 am
Another group who might want to become werewolves - all those Hollywood actors wanting eternal youth?

Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: rox_squirrel on March 05, 2008, 11:53:57 am
i think that those who are old or really sick with a terminal disease or something, would be even less likely to survive the change because their body already has a lot of damage done to it that must then be healed and fixed during the change
they would probably nearly all just die, but does the public even know any of the facts about how people can be changed into werewolves?  do they know how hard it is to change?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 05, 2008, 11:56:42 am
I dont think they do- not with the impression that I got from Iron Kissed and Blood Bound.
But I get the sense thats its not so much about the state of health of the person when they change but the force of will- or that other something-
Bran's wife was changed when she was seriously injured - so she was weakened already.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: rox_squirrel on March 05, 2008, 11:58:51 am
Bran's wife was changed when she was seriously injured - so she was weakened already.

i'd completely forgotten that part!  :P  So much for my theory then  :D
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: rox_squirrel on March 05, 2008, 12:01:08 pm
i don't think gigantic amounts of werewolves were changed by force.  most of them i think chose to change and approached an alpha or somebody to change them.  Charles mentions that there's some info that is told first to anybody thinking of changing.  most wolves i think are voluntary but the forced ones just make so much better stories and interesting characters  :D
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 05, 2008, 12:04:42 pm
No worries- I have a swiss cheese memory as well-

and I forgot to add this in my original comments- but I can see politicians as well as actors wanting  werewolf attributes as well. I can also see the people who are against supernatural beings  as well wanting that as a way to have that advantage to fight against those they see as abominations. In Iron Kissed - Tim kept commentating that the ring was a politician tool - its ironic that he was using magic, yet he was campaigning against magical beings!
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 05, 2008, 12:06:52 pm
I think Adam has mixed feelings about being a werewolf- his outburst in Blood Bound was really interesting. In some ways its a rape and he was forced to become something he didnt really want to be. I think Ben is forced changed as well - I think Patty stated this in a chat. Which adds alot to his past abuse.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: rox_squirrel on March 05, 2008, 12:06:55 pm
using an item is a bit different from completely changing your species from human to werewolf though
it's kinda a permanent thing with the little problem of a pack structure, alpha, and control throw in
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 05, 2008, 12:10:14 pm
True- but I can see people telling that its a great sacrifice for a greater good. In the past people became the very things they actually fought against. And being a werewolf despite its disadvantages there is also alot of advantages, and unlike the fae who are separate beings- the werewolves start off human although when they turn they have wolf instincts.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 05, 2008, 12:23:32 pm
I think a lot of people who were going into it for the things discussed here, political power & actors, would forget/ignore the things like pack structure.  Humans, let's face it, tend to feel that the rules don't apply to (each) ME!, & that they'll find a way around it after the fact, or in the case of politicians, they'd tend to assume they'd be alphas anyway.
Just a guess.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Temari on March 05, 2008, 06:25:21 pm
I wondered about Honey too, she'd obviously had a bad time before joining Adam's pack.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Zealith on March 07, 2008, 02:27:08 pm
I suspect most wolves made in the USA since Bran became the Morrok were voluntary, but before that, and in other counties? Most are probably forced, after all, to have volenteers you need people who know about werewolves. And before they came out, it was pretty much family only.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: jenniwee on March 08, 2008, 02:38:39 pm
I asked Patty about this a loooong time age (it's on page 8, I think, in the Ask Patty section).  But this was her answer.

Quote
Rogues (werewolves who go around attacking humans) are hunted down and killed by the packs who answer to Bran.  If they have force Changed someone, that victim is adopted by the nearest pack and helped until they either adjust and control their wolf -- or the pack is forced to kill them.

Only in Bran's territory (which is admittedly huge) is it absolutely forbidden to Change someone against their will.  In, for instance, Europe, as long as the pack Alpha doesn't care, it is not forbidden.  Just a really bad idea if you are trying to avoid capture.

Honey is older than she looks and was not Changed in Bran's territory.  Both Adam and David were Changed in Asia, during the Vietnam war.  And you can add Ben to your list of people who were Changed against their will.


Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: jenniwee on March 08, 2008, 02:43:39 pm
or in the case of politicians, they'd tend to assume they'd be alphas anyway.

Snicker
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on March 08, 2008, 02:45:31 pm
Thanks jenniwee :)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 02:49:11 pm
or in the case of politicians, they'd tend to assume they'd be alphas anyway.

Snicker

Wouldnt it even be more funnier that a politician expecting to be an alpha ends up being in the bottom of the pack :)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 02:50:18 pm
Whoops! ;D
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 02:58:24 pm
Omg I just reread what I wrote- and I just realised the sexual innuendo lol ;D

I meant that with no smuttiness intended!
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 08, 2008, 03:04:36 pm
Omg I just reread what I wrote- and I just realised the sexual innuendo lol ;D

I meant that with no smuttiness intended!
Don't say that!  you'll loose status in the smuthound pack!
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:05:58 pm
Then you'll be on the bottom.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on March 08, 2008, 03:06:55 pm
Err, folks, let stay on topic please. Thank you :)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 03:10:15 pm
sorry  :-[

Its a subconscious thing that these innuendos keep coming out-   ;D or perhaps I am reading too much into it.

But keeping on topic- there is alot of sexual politics in packs whether its overt or covert. I bet that wont play well to people who want to be wannabe weres.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:15:13 pm
There could be a sleazy pack flying under Brans radar that give classes on becoming werewolves and glosses over the less appealing details.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 03:23:15 pm
I'm pretty sure there are other packs like that- just look at Leo's pack. And I bet being a woman in one of these packs great to be a member. :(
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:25:33 pm
Yeah I think I'd request a pack change
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 08, 2008, 03:29:36 pm
Yeah I think I'd request a pack change
when how where from who? 
There could be a sleazy pack flying under Brans radar that give classes on becoming werewolves and glosses over the less appealing details.
Kind of precludes it, y'know?  Consider Anna's situation. . .
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:32:52 pm
Dun, dun DUN!!!!! :o
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 03:36:55 pm
Also remember when Kara's father asked Mercy for help - there was only a few alphas who she would be safe with and even then some of them had questions.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:37:59 pm
That is not very comforting. I'll just stay here in my safe little world.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on March 08, 2008, 03:40:12 pm
Also remember when Kara's father asked Mercy for help - there was only a few alphas who she would be safe with and even then some of them had questions.

Yeah, that bothers me. I'd like to see Patty explore that more. Can't say I like it any but I guess it ties in with the female roles and status in the werewolf world.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Iris101 on March 09, 2008, 01:12:21 pm
How is there a lot of sexual politics?  Like being territoreal of females and mates?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Has on March 10, 2008, 05:53:04 am
How is there a lot of sexual politics?  Like being territoreal of females and mates?

Yeah and also add the homophobia as well with the Warren situation as well- sexual politics is really apparent.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Iris101 on March 10, 2008, 11:58:00 am
OOOO.  That makes sense now.  I guess, now that I think about it, there actually IS a lot of it in there...
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Zealith on March 10, 2008, 03:35:04 pm
Yes, the vet Mercy saw in Montana had regressed to a 'prime' age.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 10, 2008, 05:21:48 pm
I've been re-reading "Alien Taste" by Wen Spencer, where the aliens try using immuno suppressant drugs to make the humans more likely to survive their (similar, viral) change.  I'm wondering if more unscrupulous people will experiment with iv drips of i-s drugs & see if they can make more people survive the change that way.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on March 10, 2008, 06:29:58 pm
Oh, there is an interesting idea. Though, it's predicated on the assumption that teh cause of lycanthropy is a virus. Still, an intriguing idea.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 10, 2008, 06:32:49 pm
Well, even if it's not a virus, it does still have to overcome the natural defences, that's why the mauling.  This might be slightly less wearing on the candidate.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Temari on March 11, 2008, 02:51:12 am
I've been re-reading "Alien Taste" by Wen Spencer, where the aliens try using immuno suppressant drugs to make the humans more likely to survive their (similar, viral) change.  I'm wondering if more unscrupulous people will experiment with iv drips of i-s drugs & see if they can make more people survive the change that way.

That is interesting, because I got the impression that a lot die of the wounds rather than of the change itself, so if it was only the change that they had to cope with then many more might survive... and that would lead to more problems if it was likely rather than unlikely for the change to succeed **Werewolf population explosion!!***
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 11, 2008, 08:03:23 am
That is interesting, because I got the impression that a lot die of the wounds rather than of the change itself, so if it was only the change that they had to cope with then many more might survive.
See, that's one of the great things about having a space like this to discuss these things: I'd gotten the impression that it was the combination of mauling & virus/magic that caused the deaths.  That if the virus/magic wasn't involved, the maulings would be of the 'miraculously survived a mauling by wild dogs' news variety, but survival more likely than not with immediate medical care. 
You, on the other hand, feel that only the magic/virus saves the lives of the mauled ones.  I wonder which is right, or if it's ideosyncratic?  Something that might be asked of Madame.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Temari on March 11, 2008, 09:02:47 am
I've found that too, that I had an idea of how things were and then saw other people's ideas and thought ooh, it could be that way... this board is great  :)

Ok.. so hunting out my MC for the quote... and found, from Mercy...

"It takes an attack so vicious that the victim lies near death to allow the magic of the wolf to slip past the body's immune system........Usually the victim dies of the wounds or of the Change."

So I think that if the person is badly enough hurt that the wolf 'virus' goes through then they will either become wolf or die.
But if the virus doesn't go through then they might die anyway, but like Patti said, with good medical care they might well survive, same as anyone else with a bad injury.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on March 11, 2008, 09:13:44 am
Good find Temari. I like having a place where I can talk about such things and not get weird looks from people.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 11, 2008, 09:44:58 am
But if more people survive the change how many are going to be able to control themselves. The ones that live are those that are determined, wily etc. and maybe those traits are the traits that control the wolf's volitile nature.

I wonder if an increase in people surviving would result in an increase in the percentage of wolves that have to be destroyed for lack of control.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on March 11, 2008, 10:47:55 am
But if more people survive the change how many are going to be able to control themselves. The ones that live are those that are determined, wily etc. and maybe those traits are the traits that control the wolf's volitile nature.

I wonder if an increase in people surviving would result in an increase in the percentage of wolves that have to be destroyed for lack of control.
Probably.  Unfortunately.  See some of the earlier speculation on it.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Temari on March 11, 2008, 10:56:32 am
And more dominance fights, and fights over females... I think Mercy said that the average life expectancy for a new wolf was 10 years, so there must be a LOT that die in fights.

I think the world in general just isn't ready to conform to the way that the wolves live, especially as many wouldn't expect to - they'd expect to just keep going with their lives as they were.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Tambayo on March 11, 2008, 11:01:43 am
Adam may also counsel her not to become a werewolf until/unless she has found a male who is high enough in dominance to make he life in the pack enjoyable.  Being owned sexual by the alpha, as a unmated female, is not what I think Adam would want for his daughter. 

She may also not think the risk/reward ratio is that good.  More females than males die instead of becoming werewolves, so her risk there is high.   She also will not have her father's protection, unless he is her Alpha.  I doubt that, now, she wants her dad as her Alpha.  For any American teenager having her father being able to give a command and she has to obey it would be the pits.
What would happen to an unmated female in a pack with a mated alpha?
Most mated pairs are completely loyal to one another. The exeption was Isabelle, but then she was crazy.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: berneynator on March 11, 2008, 06:21:39 pm
That doesn't keep an unscrupulous alpha like Leo from abusing an unmated female, he just does it at one remove. Leo had reasons, but there could be plenty of other Alphas that either didn't care enough to protect an unmated female or actively enjoyed her terror and pain- there are plenty of twisted people out there, and remember that out of all the alphas in America, only a few were considered suitable to take care of a young girl-werewolf. Thinking of which, did she end up going to Bran? And if so, do you think she will play a part in Cry Wolf?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: jenglows on March 16, 2008, 06:23:29 pm
Yes, Kara did go to Bran and she might show up in cry Wolf or later in the series since she is in the same pack as Anna & C ;)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: CheeseBK on March 17, 2008, 04:53:55 am
I loved that subplot about the girl (not that she got attacked, I  mean) - especially how mercy made honey show herself in wolf-form to the girl's father.... to show that a wolf does not have to be a monster....  and I am looking forward to how things turn out for the girl...
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: jenniwee on March 18, 2008, 04:43:21 pm
I don't think she turns up in Cry Wolf.  Patty says somewhere (chat, maybe?) that CW takes place immediately after A&O, which takes place during MC, so Mercy wouldn't have sent Kara to Bran yet.  But maybe in the second book, she'll get introduced.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: boogieshoes on August 25, 2009, 01:19:38 pm
way, *way* late to the party, but i wanted to offer my $.02US on this - my theory is that in times of extreme cultural stress, more people are 'forced' to change - things like wars bring out the best and worst in people, and would do so in werewolves, too.  so, like, there was probably a rash of forced changes on the local fronts in every major war - war of the roses (england); ww1 and 2 (mainland europe); viet nam; the US civil war, etc. 

i'd say this is especially true since, as people are swept up in the conflageration, there's less time and resources - maybe less *people* - to spend on hunting down rogues and the like.

-bs, who mostly lurks
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Zealith on August 25, 2009, 06:21:56 pm
That would make sense to me. Especially since most of the casualties could be dismissed as something the other side did.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on August 25, 2009, 06:48:05 pm
Boogieshoes!  (http://members.shaw.ca/jheller/grouphug.gif)
Did you join the final drawing?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: boogieshoes on August 26, 2009, 04:39:28 am
Boogieshoes!  (http://members.shaw.ca/jheller/grouphug.gif)
Did you join the final drawing?

no, unfortunately, i didn't.  i tend to 'forget' about this forum a lot.  :-[

i checked in yesterday because i'm musing over a wereolf fusion fic with the Mag7 tv series and i wanted to see if anyone had asked about/ brought up the thompson-verse werewolves' cultural mythology.  no dice on that... but i did see the graphic novel was out, and hunting ground was out, so i rushed off and bought those at amazon, hee! :D  bOuNcY

-bs
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on August 26, 2009, 05:04:10 pm
There is or was a thread about origins of Mercy's world werewolves; I know 'cause I started it myself.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: boogieshoes on August 26, 2009, 05:18:32 pm
There is or was a thread about origins of Mercy's world werewolves; I know 'cause I started it myself.

i saw that, but it didn't go quite to what i'm looking for.  Mercy's world's werewolves obviously have a culture, and some tales they tell among themselves about previous weres, things that have happened when tangling with Fae or Vampires or whatever, as well as their cultural Creation Myth - not how they *actually* came about, but how they *say* they came about, and what they pass on to newbies.  i was looking for those stories and that cultural mythos, but i didn't find anything that quite got there.  possibly there isn't enough information from Mrs. Briggs to actually make a real discussion possible, but i had a thought that y'all might have seen something i missed.

ah, well.

-bs
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on August 26, 2009, 05:32:59 pm
Ah, you're right; she hasn't told us yet.  Getting closer, though!
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: TheDoctor on December 01, 2009, 12:29:16 pm
That's something i'm really interested in also. I want stories, the things they pass on and all that. And plus all the crazy interesting stories they must have jsut from living for so long. Bet i could listen to them all day.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: ladylynx on December 04, 2009, 08:00:48 am
It would be like listening to the stories the Immortal Highlander's told during flash backs int he shows. I think Ms. Briggs could do a short story book with a few of the characters form her book for those stories. I think Marian Zimmer Bradley did something similar to it in her writing or let her fans write stories and choose the best ones from those submitted to her.

That's how Mercedes Lackey and another Author got their starts in writing was from Short stories MZB produce. Cause Mercedes Lackey consider MZB her mentor. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: ironkitten on June 30, 2010, 06:01:08 pm
Well the government are twits they would still do the changes probably, but I like the idea of Ben being the persuader of not doing it. LOL

Also don't forget the Alphas are suppose to approve the change and in the A&O they are suppose to go through a whole series of surveys to test if they are candidates. Could you see our government taking those tests? I'm sorry you didn't get those questions right, turn me anyway - oops I ate my drill sgt at boot camp because I got ticked at him, and he wasn't a were. OR as it has been brought up I had a really bad today so to relax I went for a run by myself and ran into *insert name* and he looked at me wrong and I killed him.
WIth the hot heads in government I don't see them going for that right away. Bran wouldn't approve it either, but perhaps I could see some of the government agencies with their funding doing under handed whatever similar to the first book trying to do their secret undercover studies and making special opts groups of weres and trying to control them like with the Xmen universe and try to use them for government work and if it blows up - oops it's a cover up and consperacy theory, success - how do we incorporate that to other branches. Interesting thoughts.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Snow Wolf on July 02, 2010, 03:54:03 pm
The sad part is I could see it.  triing to combine experements to contol what they don't understand but want to use.  seeing if the could get the inhanced sences but not the temper or get the benifits with out haveing to accualy become a werewolf.  even trying to determene who would get to be dominant and who wouldn't. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on July 02, 2010, 05:24:38 pm
There's been a fair amount of fiction to that effect written, here & there.  Someone sent me a script they'd written a while back where someone was doing that with vampires, or trying to... In a certain TV town...
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: ironkitten on July 02, 2010, 06:17:39 pm
Do you recall the name?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on July 02, 2010, 06:28:59 pm
Of the person writing the script?  Yes, but it was via email, and I'd want his permission to be more specific about it.
Anyway, wannabe werewolves; can't you just imagine some of the thrill seekers thinking they could try it, then if they didn't like it, they could just reverse it?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: ironkitten on July 02, 2010, 06:35:23 pm
LOL ya that would be so wierd - Sorry you don't want to be doing this right now.....or after the change I'm sorry did you think this was reversable? By the way your stuck....... I would die with the looks on their faces. I bet you would have a few that just made it more fun to be a thrill seeker though.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Snow Wolf on July 02, 2010, 07:00:05 pm
people can be so dumb sometimes i mean really who but the stupid would actually believe that being a werewolf was reversable
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on July 02, 2010, 07:04:16 pm
Those who are sure that the universe revolves around them.  They aren't stupid, but they are egotistical.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Snow Wolf on July 02, 2010, 07:08:07 pm
Ill agree to that
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on August 16, 2010, 03:46:43 pm
What's egotistical? ???
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Zealith on August 16, 2010, 06:28:48 pm
They are self-centered, nothing but themselves matters.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on August 20, 2010, 12:37:03 pm
Thanks  :D and I have to agree with that
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kkat07 on September 06, 2010, 10:36:45 am
I wonder if there's anyone who's tried to do experiments to see if the change could be reversed?  Didn't they mention something like that in Moon Called?  Sorry if anyone already said this, after reading nine pages of posts I'm getting a little cross-eyed. 9)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on September 06, 2010, 04:57:55 pm
Drugs don't work on wolves, and in MC they were just drugging them to make the loony
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on September 06, 2010, 05:44:31 pm
I wonder if there's anyone who's tried to do experiments to see if the change could be reversed?  Didn't they mention something like that in Moon Called?  Sorry if anyone already said this, after reading nine pages of posts I'm getting a little cross-eyed. 9)

One of bad guys said it to Mac, but he was lying, trying to lure Mac into coming back without a fuss. There is no known reversal.

Drugs don't work on wolves, and in MC they were just drugging them to make the loony

Actually, some drugs work (see HG when Anna is hurt) but much higher doses are needed to be effective.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on September 07, 2010, 11:09:58 am
Fine! MOST drugs don't work WELL or for very long!
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kkat07 on September 07, 2010, 05:29:43 pm
Thanks.  I think I was remembering the silver nitrate thing and the lie that one guy told Mac, and I got mixed up. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on September 08, 2010, 03:41:45 pm
That's okay we all mix quotes or random things up sometimes, and you did have a very good point: I'm sure some wolves would pay big money to get thier condition reversed bOuNcY
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Victorymon on September 30, 2010, 04:15:39 am
I dont know if this was asked before... but how do werewolves train the humans who want to be wolves someday? I guess it was in one of the Alpha and Omega stories when Charles said something about tests and experiments. and only when they know that the human is ready (what does ready mean?) they might try it

...it can turn out worse, like the first Mercy-story. the son wanted to heal his father and in the end they had to kill him because... well, I guess he was not ready
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on September 30, 2010, 09:49:37 am
It's not "training" it's test or counseling.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Victorymon on September 30, 2010, 11:06:38 am
It's not "training" it's test or counseling.
ok, but what kind of "test" would that be? I guess its not some sort of fitness-test
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on September 30, 2010, 02:40:41 pm
vic, to the best of my knowledge, Patty has not yet given us that information. It's something that I have wondered about also.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Kkat07 on October 01, 2010, 06:21:54 pm
I think I read somewhere on this site that says they take a test to prove they understand the risks and consequences of being a werewolf.  At least in North America. If I find it, I'll copy and paste.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: charmed on October 01, 2010, 06:43:28 pm
I think I read somewhere on this site that says they take a test to prove they understand the risks and consequences of being a werewolf.  At least in North America. If I find it, I'll copy and paste.

Yes. The question that was asked is what exactly IS the test? What sort is it, what do prospective werewolves have to do, that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Victorymon on October 01, 2010, 08:19:28 pm
I dont think its some kind of multiple choice test
a human has to understand what is waiting for him/her, what big changes are coming and all the risks
would be an interesting story. for example when someone (for example a guy) is in love with a werewolf and she want to change him too...
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on October 02, 2010, 11:30:37 am
The wolves also have to tell the humans about the life they are choosing to live and make sure the humans undrstand what they are about to do.(A&O)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Victorymon on October 02, 2010, 09:37:14 pm
hmm... wouldnt this be a perfect opportunity for us (the fans) to write down what we think happens? I mean we dont know many things but we got great ideas.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on October 02, 2010, 10:09:02 pm
Generalized speculation is always fine, just no fanfic on this site.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Chalger on October 29, 2010, 10:05:08 am

I always wonder what werewolves who were forced into the change, think about those who willingly change? I would imagine resentment as voluntary changes had a choice, but then I think about Adam who hates being a werewolf and I imagine him thinking that werewolves of the voluntary change are fools.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: lostbird on October 29, 2010, 03:24:00 pm

...but then I think about Adam who hates being a werewolf...


Does he? I know David Christensen does, but Adam???
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Zealith on October 29, 2010, 03:50:41 pm
Yeah, it mentioned it in either BC or SB.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on October 29, 2010, 04:30:47 pm
He certainly feels he's a monster, but I don't recall if he hates it.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: lostbird on October 29, 2010, 05:08:33 pm
Well, yeah, I get that from him, too, but Adam is also a practical man. There is a point early on in MC when Mercy says something to the effect of it's hard not to appreciate the super strength, hearing, etc., that comes with being a werewolf. I see Adam as an appreciator. Adam was a soldier and it's clear from his demeanor that a life of military-like discipline is, to a certain extent, his comfort zone. I don't think he wastes his time hating what he's become. I don't think he could be a good alpha if he did. He controls his wolf, as all "well-adjusted" weres must. Sometimes, his were abilities come in handy.

You can hate the part of you that you perceive as being a monster and still accept who you are without self-loathing. Don't we all hate things about ourselves? I hate how sometimes I'm more direct with people than they find comfortable, but I don't hate myself because of it. Overall, I accept the package that is me and make the best of it by striving to control my personality's shortcomings. So, too, with Adam--and, I would argue, the same can probably be said about most of the wolves who manage to straddle the human and preternatural worlds successfully.


bj

Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: DandelionWine on February 06, 2011, 07:30:35 pm
Well, before, if someone wanted to become a werewolf and they died in the process, they just took em out back and cremated them...  now that the werewolves are out, what happens if someone goes through the whole process, the candidate proves they understand and that they are up to the challenge in general, but they die anyway.  So what happens if their father/mother/brother/sister/wife/husband/cousin/child whoever sues the pack, or else they get accused of murder by the authorities?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on February 06, 2011, 07:35:51 pm
Legal releases like hospitals, eventually.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: DandelionWine on February 06, 2011, 07:46:53 pm
Legal releases like hospitals, eventually.

Yeahhhh, well, no legal release is really all that binding...  plus, you go into a hospital sick or injured and they try to cure you, with attempting a change, you get shredded by a were and -maybe- you'll recover.  I just see big problems with it...  I think were numbers are going to go down unless Patty comes up with some real imaginative solution, which I have confidence she will. 

Also, any rogue attacks are going to cause outed packs trouble, people will be suspicious and angry about things in the future.  Life should get really interesting! 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Victorymon on February 06, 2011, 08:24:36 pm
from what I understand its still a big secret who is a werewolf.
yes, the wolves said: hey, guess what, we exist!
but its still free for every wolf to say: hey, I am a werwolf

its not like people can go to a doctor, pay some money and being changed.
or that they go to a doctor to make a mental test, telling them that they want to be a wolf

most of it is still a big secret. or else the scared humans would start to hunt down the packs. one human is smart, a big group of humans are just stupid animals (MIB-trademark).
and even today, in the age of internet and cellphones, thousands of people are diappearing without any trace
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: DandelionWine on February 08, 2011, 05:01:06 am
I hope what they find is that there’s no NEW way to actually –start- the change with some simple injection or whatever, but if someone is in real danger of death from an actual attack, they can give some immunosuppressant kind of treatment that will make the victim more likely to survive the change itself, if not the injury.  That seems more of a plain ol' medical issue with a bit of a strong will need included.  Besides, it’s more than just some blood serum answer right?  Like Mercy keeps saying about various things, “Hey, it’s MAGIC!”  I sure hope those government types in their labs keep hitting a brick wall because of the Magic-factor!  … at least until one of them gets disenchanted (pun intended) and walks out of his cushy lab job and heads to Aspen Creek with a desire to help the Pack and the individuals in it instead of the Feds.   *shifty eyes*

The thing about the govt being interested in research and possibly trying to control or creating their own version… THAT sounds really dangerous!  Who’s going to clean up the mess when people get changed and can’t manage to control their wolf?  I don't see the government as being able to wrap their heads around that need.  It would be bound to get ugly as has already been said.   Without an Alpha to help them and without following Bran’s laws about making the choice, which he has come up with after centuries of experience after all, way more than the history of this country let alone the govt people who are no doubt so arrogant, they think they can or should do this stuff… humph.  Of course, they don’t KNOW who bran is and how old he is, but that’s a whole nuther thang isn’t it?

Who do you all see as being willing to volunteer for govt experiments?  Trust me, it's really not likely that many military people are all that trusting and willing to volunteer for stuff, there's a LOT of old and cautionary tales within the services about the military using troops for experiments.  I suppose it's possible on a very small scale, which is sort of right anyway, but I think it'd be a creepy candidate. 
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Victorymon on February 08, 2011, 05:55:03 am
hmm... I remember this book from Brooks, there is a story about a group of humans who wanted to become werewolves. they even payed for it. I mean, hey, you are rich beyond everything. you can buy everything... but someday the grim reaper will knock on your door to take everything away... and then someone tells you: hey, werewolves are immortal and guess what, they could change you too

100.000.000$ can be a good argument for everyone  :X
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on February 09, 2011, 05:35:49 pm
but don't the weres have a system to moniter the new changes?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Zealith on February 09, 2011, 07:52:27 pm
Yeah, but that doesn't mean the government couldn't find a way to take it out of their control, at least a little
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: DandelionWine on February 10, 2011, 07:13:04 am
but don't the weres have a system to moniter the new changes?

Not THAT well!  They know only about it if a pack or Alpha is responsible and follows the Marrok's laws, but if someone takes a left turn like Leo did and covers it up, then no, they don't have some psychic WW sensing thing so they can track them.

Actually, it doesn't even have to be an Alpha like Leo.  Some generic pack member who travels for his non-were job or who goes to a business convention, and looses control one night and doesn't report it?  Yeah, someone might figure it out later, but now there's these victims who are left to struggle, and they may not have ever seen the human form.  I think all the police are going to start tracking descriptions of any wolves and try to match them to humans... even if they aren't "out" yet.  *dunh dunh daaaaa!*
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: little gray wolf on February 10, 2011, 12:49:18 pm
since the time they did that with the fae went soooooo well 9)
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on October 12, 2011, 10:29:54 am
but don't the weres have a system to moniter the new changes?

Not THAT well!  They know only about it if a pack or Alpha is responsible and follows the Marrok's laws, but if someone takes a left turn like Leo did and covers it up, then no, they don't have some psychic WW sensing thing so they can track them.

Actually, it doesn't even have to be an Alpha like Leo.  Some generic pack member who travels for his non-were job or who goes to a business convention, and looses control one night and doesn't report it?  Yeah, someone might figure it out later, but now there's these victims who are left to struggle, and they may not have ever seen the human form.  I think all the police are going to start tracking descriptions of any wolves and try to match them to humans... even if they aren't "out" yet.  *dunh dunh daaaaa!*

Isn't there a mention in one of the books that there is an instinctive desire by a werewolf who has changed someone else to stay close to them at first and teach them?  It obviously doesn't work on all werewolves - see Kyra, Adam, Ben... - but usually the werewolf will have one or more mentors in the usual course of events.  A very few (see Walter) can gain control of themselves, but they don't learn the "rules" and a lot of the other things that being "raised" in a pack offers.  They may not know or realize (although Walter did) that they CAN change other than at full moon, the "silence" pack magic sure wouldn't be apparent, the official ranking of unmated females at the bottom of the pack might not be obvious, especially for dominant females like Honey.

And here's a new question:  Would the gov't now consider outed werewolves who are drafted or volunteering for armed services 4F; do they think of the fae that way?  Certainly as mentioned previously, the Navy, the Coast Guard and possibly the Marines would consider werewolves ineligible because of their inability to float, let alone swim, but what about land based/air based services?  What about Secret Service, DEA - really handy there - ATF, CIA, Homeland Security in the US?  What about various government services in other countries, mostly Europe, since "werewolves are European monsters"?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: DandelionWine on October 12, 2011, 11:43:37 am
Isn't there a mention in one of the books that there is an instinctive desire by a werewolf who has changed someone else to stay close to them at first and teach them?  It obviously doesn't work on all werewolves - see Kyra, Adam, Ben... - but usually the werewolf will have one or more mentors in the usual course of events. 

I think it'd be like so many other things, it may be instinctive for a responsible WW to stay and mentor a new wolf, or see to it that someone does, but if a WW is generally a jerk, or a fool, or a ne'er do well, and knew they had screwed up and lost control they may decide to slip away and leave the victim.  He may feel a little bad about it, but depending on the WW, he (she? though less likely of course) he may decide it's best to beat feet and leave town and hope he doesn't get caught. 

Seems to me that it's quite as possible that the individual can be as responsible or irresponsible as anyone else, just depends on the situation and the individual.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: lostbird on October 12, 2011, 12:22:53 pm
And here's a new question:  Would the gov't now consider outed werewolves who are drafted or volunteering for armed services 4F; do they think of the fae that way?  Certainly as mentioned previously, the Navy, the Coast Guard and possibly the Marines would consider werewolves ineligible because of their inability to float, let alone swim, but what about land based/air based services?  What about Secret Service, DEA - really handy there - ATF, CIA, Homeland Security in the US?  What about various government services in other countries, mostly Europe, since "werewolves are European monsters"?


I guess I don't think so. I think the military would see weres as assets. Okay, they can't swim, they can't float. However, on land, it's like having a super soldier. In fact, didn't someone in one of the books mention that some weres' families were being threatened into cooperating with the military? I think it may have been more implied than anything. But I think Charles has alluded quite strongly to the fact that the government knows weres exist and they just haven't really found a way to capitalize on that information ... yet. One of the many reasons Bran felt it necessary to bring the wolves "out."
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Patti L. on October 12, 2011, 12:32:36 pm
Yes, in "Hunting Ground" there was mention of weres in other countries being pressured with extortion against their families if they didn't cooperate, & there was the moment when Charles had told Anna that he got followed sometimes.  She had the practically cartoon image of them in their black suits trying to follow him.

But given that Mercy went into that whole riff about how Brownies - Very Good teachers of small children - have been forced out of the schools, I can see either governmental or popular pressure making the rules reject "Very Good" soldiers & agents from what they're equipped for.  Besides, given the temper issues that werewolves have, and the whole "scent of blood = food" or "running creature = prey" reflexes... they could - if not chosen very carefully - be a worse liability in the situations they're theoretically best suited for, than they are help.  Consider a scenario with captured diplomats, or even one or more working with the "kidnappers", and one or more of the prisoners either bleeding or reacting aggressively when the "Wolf Team Bravo" comes in and starts savaging the bad guys.  Suddenly, it turns into a bloodbath, and few or none of the prisoners survive.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: lostbird on October 12, 2011, 12:44:21 pm
I'm thinking there would be either something like a "don't ask/don't tell" thing going on for a while, or there would be a super secret group of elite soldiers that would be made up of werewolves. I think the government would *say* that werewolves were not suitable for the military, but I think what they would do behind the scenes would be very different.


And I do kinda think that once a were has his control in order, and has a strong alpha to keep him in line, he can be an unstoppable force. Perhaps they would get an alpha to head up that elite group of soldiers....
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Victorymon on October 12, 2011, 06:43:49 pm
one thing I guess is really important here: I dont think that the world is ready to know all the power and weakness of a werewolf. Bran will keep that stuff as a secret. yes, maybe a small group of govermental guys might know about it, but not many people.
even some werewolves dont know too much about themself if not teached correctly, right?
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Moonbeam on April 08, 2013, 03:38:39 am
Quote
And here's a new question:  Would the gov't now consider outed werewolves who are drafted or volunteering for armed services 4F; do they think of the fae that way?  Certainly as mentioned previously, the Navy, the Coast Guard and possibly the Marines would consider werewolves ineligible because of their inability to float, let alone swim, but what about land based/air based services?  What about Secret Service, DEA - really handy there - ATF, CIA, Homeland Security in the US?  What about various government services in other countries, mostly Europe, since "werewolves are European monsters"?
If there is even a remote possibility that foreign governments may view weres as any type of weapon or asset, then you can bet your eyeteeth that the US government will not want to be left behind.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean they will want weres in the regular military ranks - but they surely would find a place for them, a way to (in their minds) control them, and a use for them.

So the real question isn't so much whether they would be allowed into government agencies or the military - It is  more like, "Would they be treated as individuals with earned rank an privilege like others, or would they be treated as mindless weapons who are there to be used as the government sees fit?"

And honestly, in real life - our government sometimes treats people as nothing more than human resources who are there to be exploited and used for the benefit of the agency and/or our country.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: DandelionWine on April 08, 2013, 04:19:01 am
WereWolves -IN- the military would be a very iffy thing IMO.   Better perhaps if they are changed later in the military life where there is at least a little more autonomy allowed and their value as an individual is established.  As a raw recruit, the troop is constantly challenged, faced down, forced into situations that ARE threatening in both physical and mental ways, and challenged with face-to-face, eye contact type scenarios.  Military protocol means that you don't make eye contact if in formation, you focus away from the TI, DI or whatever instructor or officer is getting in your face, but THEY make eye contact while giving you your talking to (shouting at you).  There may be WWs that would put up with that, but.... I seriously doubt it.

There would have to be a WW unit leader, and he better be good because I can't even see Adam being willing to take orders the way you have to in the military anymore, even though he maintains a lot of military structure in his job and in the pack.  There isn't room for WW pack politics in the military, at ALL.  After a task is done, or a situation handled, he makes room for things like challenges within the pack or such.  That would be expressly illegal in the military and I don't see such extreme allowances being made.

I could see a unit of WWs or partly WWs working WITH the military though, something similar to David Christianson's mercenary unit, but being under the UCMJ seems pretty impossible.  If any government tried to engineer a unit of this sort on their own, (maybe by taking volunteers to be changed?), I'm guessing they'd be buying a bushel and a half of trouble.
Title: Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
Post by: Baum Diggity on April 08, 2013, 09:23:53 am
I know it's a tidbit out of the Mercyverse, but Carrie Vaughn explores this concept in some of her later books. It certainly leans into the territory of "not a good idea", but it tends to be due primarily to poor management and debrief rather than it's a bad idea to give orders to something you really can't control. Though both sides are a problem.