The Hurog Family

Patricia Briggs' Books => Characters Board => The Weres => Romantic and Non-Romantic Couples & Relationships => Topic started by: Perkinator on July 30, 2008, 06:18:13 pm

Title: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Perkinator on July 30, 2008, 06:18:13 pm
I loved the book. I love Anna and Charles.

On that note, I want to talk about Leah.

Yes she is shallow, selfish, bitter and a bitch, and yet I feel sorry for her. She resents the hell out of the Marrock's sons. Then again, some of the situation is of Brandon's making. How would you feel if you were shut out of someone's life and only used for sex? She tries and asks whats wrong, but Bran dials up the phone and calls Sam. After a couple of decades or a century of that, who wouldn't feel like she did? What would you do in that situation?

She came from a time where a woman's prestige came from her husband. I would love to see if Patty does something positive with Leah. Have her develop her own self worth.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on July 30, 2008, 09:04:06 pm
Practice, practice, practice. 

And a healthy dollup of feminine hypocracy.  Sometimes you have to use 'do as I say, not as I do'.

Welcome, Hurog.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: a3kings on July 31, 2008, 12:11:54 pm
Quote from: Perkinator
Patty:

I just wanted to say how much I loved Cry Wolf. I just love Anna and Charles.

Who is locked in the Marrock's basement?

Please tell me you are going to do something positive with Leah? The scene with Anna was just too funny, and heartbreaking at the same time. Even stupid and selfish peeps need love. I couldn't imagine going through a century or so with someone who pretty much ignores you except in the bedroom. Plus she sees how he cares about everyone except her.  I would be bitter and bitchy too.

Vicki aka Perkinator

I completely agree with that. Even before I read cry wolf I kinda thought that be hard to live with everyday. Now to find out that bran choose her deliberately in order not to love her  >:( makes him an a**hole as a husband in my book. I know he has things to deal with but thats harsh. To be clear I dont think that her behavior is excusable at all. She makes it way to easy for him.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Perkinator on July 31, 2008, 12:20:00 pm
Oh..I don't think her behavior is excusable, but I definitely understand it. She should have dumped Bran's sorry behind about a century ago. (If she could, I don't know how the bond works though). I think most people have been in a relationship that you have cared more for the person than they care for you. Now I am rambling...unless she likes the status and power, but that is a lonely road to travel.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: a3kings on July 31, 2008, 12:52:31 pm
i believe that somewhere in the series it mentions that you can leave your mate but it is  really hard to do. so i guess you have to really wnat to go. BUt even if leah did want to leave i dont think she has the brains or the strengh to do it. remember she comes from a time when you deal with your marrige whether good or bad, until death ect.. I wonder if she ever went to school or even ever left the safety of aspen creek.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on July 31, 2008, 01:07:10 pm
Okay, I apologize in advance, 'cause this is a stupid nit-pick, but -

Bran in the Welsh isn't short for Brandon.  It's just Bran. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Perkinator on July 31, 2008, 04:41:33 pm
Sorry, my ex is named Brandon. If I am talking about someone being a jerk, naturally the name slips out.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on July 31, 2008, 05:15:58 pm
I can see that.  :D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: mystify on July 31, 2008, 07:20:50 pm
On that note, I want to talk about Leah.

Yes she is shallow, selfish, bitter and a bitch, and yet I feel sorry for her. She resents the hell out of the Marrock's sons. Then again, some of the situation is of Brandon's making. How would you feel if you were shut out of someone's life and only used for sex? She tries and asks whats wrong, but Bran dials up the phone and calls Sam. After a couple of decades or a century of that, who wouldn't feel like she did? What would you do in that situation?

She came from a time where a woman's prestige came from her husband. I would love to see if Patty does something positive with Leah. Have her develop her own self worth.
[/quote]

Do you think the Leah cares for Bran? When Bran came home and Leah was sleeping in his bed, it just made me wonder because if it were me, I would not be sleeping in my mate's bed when he's not around if I didn't care somehow and want a connection with him while he is away. Could she have even been worried about him?

Sorry...when I posted this the quote thing didn't work... :)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on July 31, 2008, 07:33:14 pm
I hd another thought about that after the similar post elsewhere.

If they married in that understanding, it's one thing, but if she didn't know, that's another.  It does cast a 'dark light' on Bran.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Perkinator on July 31, 2008, 08:45:07 pm
I hd another thought about that after the similar post elsewhere.

If they married in that understanding, it's one thing, but if she didn't know, that's another.  It does cast a 'dark light' on Bran.

That would be me...I am a bad poster..but I wanted to ask Patty, too.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on July 31, 2008, 09:05:27 pm
Nothing wrong with cross posting for something that you feel strongly about, Perkinator. At least not to me.  It's relevant.

And I'm kind of trying to agree with you, I think.  Maybe if she can break herself out of the old habits (and likewise Bran, by golly) and (probably with Anna's help for both of them) start insisting that he talk to her at least along with the 'boys', (heh.  200-1300 year old boys!) and he lets her in a little, maybe she can grow out of some of the "shallow, selfish, bitter and a bitch," behavior.  Maybe he'll discover that he has a third pillar of strength to lean on.  And maybe with a purpose, Leah can leave the bitterness behind her, grow less selfish.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Zealith on July 31, 2008, 09:42:56 pm
I would like that too. I think she's probably just being as she was taught to be.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on July 31, 2008, 09:47:54 pm
I think you're right, Zealith.  And no-one has been encouraging/pushing her to grow out of it.

I wonder if somewhere inside her she wants to, but doesn't know how or have the confidence to ask for help?  If that's part of why she's so anti-Mercy, because Mercy doesn't need to cling, and was raised to believe she could do for herself, and doesn't have to have a mate, not being a were, and required to have a mate, or suffer through 'belonging' to the alpha?

What was Leah's life like before she was changed?  Was she force-changed too?  How long was she were before Bran's wolf chose her?  What did she suffer?  How long has it had to dig ruts the depth of Bryce Canyon?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Gerd D. on August 01, 2008, 03:32:13 am
Going through all this talk about Leah really changed my view on her, I somehow took it for granted when Bran(?) said that she just mated him because she craves power.

But reading through the previous posts it does become apparent that Bran doesn't share much with Leah or confide much in here, I guess a partnership like that would make any one start acting bitter.
And there is an emphasis in the book that Bran enforces respect for Leah and her position, but he's doing it only for the sake of custom, not because he actually feels any of that himself.
In that light you begin to wonder about Leah's life within the pack.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Temari on August 01, 2008, 04:52:10 am
I do feel sorry for Leah too. She's clearly very selfish and unpleasant, but Bran wants her to be like that, so I'm not suprised she's become very bitter and hates anyone who takes Bran's attention in any way.

I think it was an interesting insight to Bran - characters keep saying how ruthless he is, but comes across as a nice guy, and that's how I still thought of him - but he's certainly using Leah without thought for her feelings or development. Oh the other hand, his reason for doing so... if by doing he stays stable and so holds all of the US wolves stable, then he's saving thousands of wolf lives and making life better for all those who live. I can see he'd more than accept that balance, but a tough moral decision.

I was very sad that Walter never had a chance to see if he could get over his troubles with the help of a pack. I liked him.

I loved the background on Bran and Samuel too - it sounded to me as though poor Sam stayed with his father all the time he was beserk, trying to get him to calm and eventually succeeding, but only after many years. And he's sooooo old, Mercy would be shocked!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Perkinator on August 01, 2008, 09:27:57 am

Do you think the Leah cares for Bran? When Bran came home and Leah was sleeping in his bed, it just made me wonder because if it were me, I would not be sleeping in my mate's bed when he's not around if I didn't care somehow and want a connection with him while he is away. Could she have even been worried about him?

Sorry...when I posted this the quote thing didn't work... :)  

You know. Even selfish, shallow and stupid bitches learn to care about things. If she doesn't, maybe her wolf does. Who knows. All I know is that it is difficult to be in a relationship when you are shut out and playing second fiddle to a dead woman and everyone else who demands attention..and she has been doing it for over a century.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kyra_Athena on August 01, 2008, 10:04:44 am
I don't know what Leah would have been like 100 years ago.  I simply don't like her, but I guess that's deliberate character development.  Seeing as Bran chose her due to being selfish and stupid, I doubt much has changed.  She seems very bitter and jealous, but she also likes the attention and power that comes with being his mate. 

Something was mentioned by Bran near the end of Cry Wolf about the mating bond "spreading" the rage or something like that, making it easier to manage.  If that is true, does that also mean that Leah is also sharing in his instability and rage along with the power that comes with being the Alpha's mate? That would explain some of her vindictiveness, in that the anger Bran keeps tightly wrapped is not so secure with her.  If it does come from him, that may be why he tolerates her? I assume that somewhere there is strength in Leah or she might be absolutely insane sharing the rage with Bran. 

How do werewolf mates separate? Is it literally a death-'til-you-part situation or can it be dissolved like a divorce?


Off topic but related, I was really creeped out about the still-living coyote that was anchored to the witch's cabin.  Did it remind you of Mercy?



Oh..I don't think her behavior is excusable, but I definitely understand it. She should have dumped Bran's sorry behind about a century ago. (If she could, I don't know how the bond works though). I think most people have been in a relationship that you have cared more for the person than they care for you. Now I am rambling...unless she likes the status and power, but that is a lonely road to travel.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: gryphon340 on August 01, 2008, 03:37:03 pm
If Leah ever pulls her head out her self asbiportion and  figures out that she is saving Bran from the beserker. there would  no stopping her taryanting.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: jenniwee on August 01, 2008, 08:27:47 pm
I have to say, I think that one of the reasons Bran shuts Leah out is that she doesn't "get" alot of what he has to do.  For instance, she thinks his mourning of Doc Wallace is fake because he killed him.  She obviously doesn't understand that the killing was actually an act of mercy and love.  I think that Bran's insistence that he found someone sooo stupid and selfish is pretty well reflected in that passage where she meets Anna.  He deliberately set out to find someone he could not like and respect, so he wouldn't come to love her.  That is why she is so easy to keep out.  It does make Bran a bit of a dick for doing it, but his dickiness doesn't automatically make her worthy of any regard.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Perkinator on August 02, 2008, 01:22:16 pm
I have to say, I think that one of the reasons Bran shuts Leah out is that she doesn't "get" alot of what he has to do.  For instance, she thinks his mourning of Doc Wallace is fake because he killed him.  She obviously doesn't understand that the killing was actually an act of mercy and love.  I think that Bran's insistence that he found someone sooo stupid and selfish is pretty well reflected in that passage where she meets Anna.  He deliberately set out to find someone he could not like and respect, so he wouldn't come to love her.  That is why she is so easy to keep out.  It does make Bran a bit of a dick for doing it, but his dickiness doesn't automatically make her worthy of any regard.

Everyone deserves some sort of regard, no matter how selfish and how stupid. Everyone has worth, some you have to look a little harder, dig a little deeper, be a little more patient with, yes be a hard ass with...but the worth is there. (Can you tell I teach at an innercity Title I school) I wanted to point out to all of the "woe is Bran, he needs a new mate" that it is a situation of his own choice.  His "dickiness" is probably exasperating the situation with Leah and even making her worse.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Cole on August 04, 2008, 04:49:55 am
no it was a raccoon the coyote was under it
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Snoopy on August 04, 2008, 04:51:05 am
Yep, the coyote was underneath the cabin.
But, yes, kyra_Athena, I thought of Mercy instantly, and it creeped me out to no end, too!!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Maya on August 04, 2008, 11:29:32 am
I also immediately thought of Mercy when it mentioned a coyote in the cabin. Good thing it wasn't! I don't think she -- or Adam, or Samuel for that matter -- would have been too happy with Charles.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Maiv on August 05, 2008, 10:52:32 am
 ;D

Hi, I'm new here and this will be my first post. Um...Where should I start?
Well, I've read Mercy's books. And I just finished Cry Wolf about two hours ago. I wish February was here already to find out what happens in Bone Crossed!!!
I read a lot of those romance novels and I have to say...the love scenes for Patty's books are wonderful. It's got enough details to leave you craving for more and at the same not. It's just perfect!  ;)

Okay, 'nuf of that...I have a question for all you folks (or for Patty). I have to get this off my chest, but does it bother you that when Patty writes about Leah and Bran in....bed (shivers)...it's really disturbing.  ???
Why? Only because I can't stand Leah. I don't think anyone likes her at all. I can see why she is jealous and I can understand (somewhat) why Bran's wolf chose her as a mate...but...uggh! Leah? I wonder if Bran will find someone else if there are future books. That would be interesting to his love life. :D

Also, another question, if love wasn't necessary for the mating bond accept for acceptance and trust, then how do the human side of two people really live with each other? I know she has her own room and he has his own, but it seems to me that they're living like strangers only looking forward to coupling(?) at night when they feel like it.

Does anyone feel the same way? Yes? No? Would greatly appreciate the feedback!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: a3kings on August 05, 2008, 11:06:11 am
hello nyuammeb!  I know leah is a real b****. Bran choose her to mate with because she's disagreable. He was certain that he could never really love her. So the answer to your question is that their human side  dont live with each other. He actively promotes this state in their relationship. The sex scene at the end of cry wolf actually answered a lot of questions about them. I know leah is mean and stupid but a large part of why she behaves that way with people has to do with bran and how he treats her >:(. It's really sad actually. If things were different maybe she wouldnt be so hostile. I know she still wouldnt be friendly and kind but her attitude towards people would be better.....probably :-\ :)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Elle on August 05, 2008, 05:26:45 pm
Discuss our favorite disfunctional couple here. ;)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: luvstraberries on August 05, 2008, 07:31:41 pm
Okay, so both Samuel (in MC) and Charles (in AO) have stated that the wolf choose Leah because Bran was alone too long.  Then in Cry Wolf Bran states that both his sons don't understand why he choose Leah.  And it didn't seem to be but a few years (?) after Blue Jay Womans death that he married Leah. I don't have the books in front of me...  so I can't quote.

We learn because he loved Blue Jay Woman so much and he didn't want to experience that kind of pain again (but he needed to control the beast) so he picked Leah because she was the most stupid and selfish woman he could find.

Is Leah's wolf mated to Bran?  Or did Leah the human select Bran for his power and position? Or a combination of both?

So my question is who chose Leah?

Please forgive me if I am rambling   :D



 ???
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: rox_squirrel on August 05, 2008, 07:50:47 pm
i got the impression that it was that Bran's wolf chose but i think that Bran helped it along with what he considered the "correct" choice
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Mike Briggs on August 06, 2008, 01:31:38 pm
I haven't talked this question over with Patty, but I have much the same reaction an nyuammeb: while Leah is certainly a cold-hearted wench, being locked into a loveless marriage would make anyone an unpleasant ogre.  I kind of understand Bran's reasoning, but it still seems pretty cold.   We'll have to see if Patty explains his motives a little further . . . ???
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dryad on August 07, 2008, 12:48:16 am
Something was mentioned by Bran near the end of Cry Wolf about the mating bond "spreading" the rage or something like that, making it easier to manage.  If that is true, does that also mean that Leah is also sharing in his instability and rage along with the power that comes with being the Alpha's mate? That would explain some of her vindictiveness, in that the anger Bran keeps tightly wrapped is not so secure with her.  If it does come from him, that may be why he tolerates her? I assume that somewhere there is strength in Leah or she might be absolutely insane sharing the rage with Bran. 


That's what I've been thinking as well, that a part of Leah's bitterness and anger is tied to Bran's instability through the mate bond.  Given the glimpses we've had of Leah through the Mercy books, I never would have believed that I'd feel sorry for her, but Patty made me go there. That's some good writing.  ;D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Aurora on August 07, 2008, 07:23:10 am
Bran explains in CW the reason why he chose Leah for a mate.  It's MHO that Bran the man actively searched for a woman like Leah.  I have some doubt that his wolf was involved in the selection of a mate at all.  Usually a man chooses a wife and the wolf accepts her as a mate. 

In CW on pg. 293  " He needed the mating bond to hold the monster he could become at bay.  But he couldn't afford to lose anyone else he loved the way he had loved Blue Jay Woman.  So he'd found an acceptable compromise in Leah. " 

Bran explains that love is not necessary for a successful mating.  That all it needed was trust and acceptance.  So I guess Bran trusts and accepts Leah even if he doesn't allow hmself to love her.  I kinda feel sorry for the both of them.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Maiv on August 07, 2008, 07:52:22 am
 ???

Just mulling a few things over about Leah, Bran, and the pack. I'd forgotten that the pack in Aspen Creek is a safe haven for wolves that are having problems or developing them. I don't want to make bad assumptions since we don't know her that well, but I can't help wondering that maybe she left another pack to join Bran's pack was because others couldn't handle her attitude. Maybe her attitude/personality comes off as a strong (alpha-ish) type and led Bran's wolf to choose her.
Also, Bran and his wolf is getting old, becoming slightly crazy after he lost Blue Jay Woman, choosing Leah to calm his wolf down.
(SIGH)  :-\
I dunno, dissecting this book really got me feeling like I still don't like Leah, but at the same time, you feel sorry for her and Bran. But you've got to laugh at how the pack is created, because in the real world, it's (probably) drama, drama, drama, and maybe and it's what keeps the characters going!

Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Gwendolynn on August 07, 2008, 06:12:50 pm
I think it was an interesting insight to Bran - characters keep saying how ruthless he is, but comes across as a nice guy, and that's how I still thought of him - but he's certainly using Leah without thought for her feelings or development.
Who is to say she isn’t using him for her own reasons though?  I love the possibilities this book has opened for the future with Bran and Leah.  Their relationship could develop in so many ways, or it could remain the same. 

The fact that Leah was waiting in his bed, whether or not it was her human side or wolf side, is a great sign.  Also, the fact that Bran's first impulse was to soften towards her is a good sign too.  I think it shows that things will not remain the same between them.

My fear is that Leah will never be content.  If Bran softens toward her and starts loving her, will she be content sharing him with his sons and the pack?  Some people are unable to share, people or power. 

I think Leah is just as responsible for the dysfunctional relationship as Bran.  I like how CW put some of the weight on Bran’s shoulders (I had previously thought it was mostly Leah), but they both are responsible.  It takes two to make things work. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: white_unicorn on August 07, 2008, 11:26:28 pm
as I wrote in another post, Leah must have known. Even if she wasn't in the Pack when Charles was born the  love Bran had for his wife was legendary in the pack... she must have realized that she couldn't compete but she compromised... I think, if she had said that she wanted more than what Bran would give her he would let her go and find someone else, so... I guess she has a share of the fault.

Plus, she made the mistake many step-moms do, antagonizing their husband's children and late wife because they don't think they get enough from their husband... Though in Leah's case she doesn't get enough....

I'd like to learn more about her and Bran... and I do think both are to blame for their relationship...
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: ArtAngel on August 08, 2008, 12:19:44 am
I wonder if Leah's dislike for Sam, Charles and Mercy is because she sees the depth of love that Bran is capable of and knows that he will never allow himself to love her the same? I know I would be ticked with that kind of situation. But the whole scenario is just too sad.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Tanis143 on August 09, 2008, 07:17:10 am
I haven't talked this question over with Patty, but I have much the same reaction an nyuammeb: while Leah is certainly a cold-hearted wench, being locked into a loveless marriage would make anyone an unpleasant ogre.  I kind of understand Bran's reasoning, but it still seems pretty cold.   We'll have to see if Patty explains his motives a little further . . . ???

Pretty cold to ordinary humans, but this is a werewolf remember? I can understand why he does this. In a way its the same thing that that Leo was faced with. Bran knows that his inner monster can not gain control of himself. He found the best way to cage the beast was through sex (I presume at least this is what that whole segment at the end of CW was about). But, after losing a wife that he dearly loved, he almost lost control of the beast in his despair. So he needed to find someone who would be willing to marry him, but someone he could never truly love. Enter Leah. She married Bran strictly for the power that marriage gave her. I'm pretty sure he made this arrangement clear to because she never acts like a jilted lover, just a stone cold bitch (Hey, I can use this word since she is a female canine of sorts :D ). Thus, Bran can feed his inner monster a pound of flesh so to speak, but he would never risk losing the inner struggle if Leah died as he did with his other wife. Yeah, its kind of cold, but as a werewolf, you do what you can to survive or protect your pack.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Tambayo on August 10, 2008, 01:17:51 am
I got the impression that part of the rage from the monster is also diffused through the mating bond. Wouldn't that nagging at the edge of her awareness color Leah's behaviour as well?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Gerd D. on August 10, 2008, 05:24:34 am
Okay, 'nuf of that...I have a question for all you folks (or for Patty). I have to get this off my chest, but does it bother you that when Patty writes about Leah and Bran in....bed (shivers)...it's really disturbing.  ???
Are we talking them having Sex with each other here? Then, no, not really. It just seems awfully sad, but then again they might not see that so. If we talk them sharing a bed in general, then yes the thought to spend your live besides someone you can't or won't share a true affection with (or  someone that can't or won't share a true affection with you) is a disturbing one.

Also, another question, if love wasn't necessary for the mating bond accept for acceptance and trust, then how do the human side of two people really live with each other? I know she has her own room and he has his own, but it seems to me that they're living like strangers only looking forward to coupling(?) at night when they feel like it.
I always got the feeling that quite some couples live their live just that way, sans the coupling, like strangers that just happen to share a house. So it does seem that humans are invariably able to arange themself with almost every situation.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: munkee on August 10, 2008, 07:23:34 am
ah see, here's another example.
my hubby's grandparents are bordering 90. grandma sleeps upstairs, grandpa sleeps downstairs (oh yeah and this is the guy who recently went out and bought a new chainsaw as he wore out his other one....this whole werewolf thing keeps popping into my mind...lol). From exchanging letters with grandma, she can't stand the man, but they've been married over 50 years, three kids, 6 grandkids, 5 great grandkids...so on. We aren't sure exactly how long leah's been married to bran, but if mercy knows of her, then lets assume at least 30+ years. It was a totally different kind of society back 50+ years ago where marriage for the sake of marriage was not uncommon as it is nowadays. Being happy didn't matter, surviving back then did. SO, even though we're all appalled at the situation, they may be okay with it as it's what they are used to or what they grew up with as a standard. (honestly, I shudder to think that today's society will be a standard for my son)

That being said, if the human aspects of bran and leah can't stand each other, but the wolf in each of them keeps them together, then should they part(the mating bond not be there anymore kind of thing), that'd be one HECK of an explosion, in my opinion. SO bran might as well face the facts and start softening to her. With as many years as he's been indifferent to her, it's not like she's going to love him overnight, but it might make things better for his pack as well.

anyone else notice that brans pack has kind of the "we're here because we don't have anywhere else to go" type feeling to it? AND when does the 14 year old come to join? that one guys daughter from blood bound? What kind of impact will SHE have on the pack?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 10, 2008, 08:50:26 am
Some good points, Munkee.  Up until at least the 1920s, in a great deal of the western world, marriages were made for profit and politics, not for love.  The very idea was appalling to most people.  You could have it as a bonus, that was acceptable, but as the first thing you looked for in a husband or wife?!  Most assuredly not!

Eastern countries still have a good quantity of arranged marriages; I've met a woman who was forced into an arranged marriage when she was 18, +/- 2 years, out of the Indian sub-continent.  And probably others I don't know about.  And it does still happen in western countries; a lot of the ruckus about the Fundamentalist Mormons down in Texas earlier this year is because that particular splinter group was encouraging to the point of forcing the girls to marry older men that were chosen by their fathers.

In this day of 'individual choices for & by the individual', there is a preponderance of 'for love' marriages, but we shouldn't fool ourselves, there are also a great many that are made where one or both parties are in it strictly for what they can get out of it; materially or in power, prestige, or notoriety.

And Kara Beckwith wouldn't have had a chance to get to the Marrock's pack yet.  But the inclusion of Anna to the equation of  Kara + the Aspen Creek pack = (to me) some interesting times, in the sense of that Chinese curse.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: jenglows on August 10, 2008, 03:59:57 pm
For me, the big question is if Bran explained the deal to Leah before the mating bond was finalized or if she thought he loved her and didn't realize what was going on until it was too late to back out.   If Leah understood the deal and choose that life because of the benefits it offers ( wealth, power, community standing) then I have no sympathy for her because her behavior towards Mercy and Bran's sons isn't excusable.  But,  if she was mislead by Bran then I can understand her lashing out at his children and her behavior towards Mercy - and Bran loses some serious "cool" points ;)
 
I really love reading Bran's back story, it is so intense. I hope that more of the A&O series contains additional history vignettes form Bran and Samual.  There is a lot of time to cover and many interesting adventures, I'm sure :) 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: a3kings on August 11, 2008, 08:03:56 am
Glow1nthedark
Quote
If Leah understood the deal and choose that life because of the benefits it offers ( wealth, power, community standing) then I have no sympathy for her because her behavior towards Mercy and Bran's sons isn't excusable.  But,  if she was mislead by Bran then I can understand her lashing out at his children and her behavior towards Mercy - and Bran loses some serious "cool" points


I can agree with that. sort of like " u made ur bed, Now lie in it" but if that were the case then she wouldnt be as hurt,... would she????  I think that bran didnt explain to her what it was going to be like. or if he hinted at it then she didnt get it. She is considered stupid after all. Plus if shes as old as come people speculate then she probably would have still expected more. LIke for example if she didnt expect love then she at least expected to be more of a partner to him.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: nightangel on August 12, 2008, 11:43:51 am
I think Bran and Leah's relationship is not entirely healthy, and to me it seems that her character is meant to be unlikeable, but at the same time part of me does sympathize with her.  I can understand why Bran would deliberately choose a mate he could not fall deeply in love with--he is a berserker, and from what I gathered in the novel that dangerous side of him was almost unleashed again after the death of Blue Jay Woman, because of his love for her.  So, his lack of love for Leah may be kind of jerky from a personal standpoint, but as Marrok he also had the packs to think of.

It makes Leah's attitude a lot easier to understand, even though it might not make her likeable.  She obviously knows that Bran doesn't care for her the way he did for Blue Jay Woman, or for his sons, and yet if their wolves have recognized one another as mates, that's not an easy offer to turn down, and so she's roped into a relationship with someone she wants to be close to but who she knows will never love her as much.

However, I also have to wonder if part of Bran doesn't love her a little anyway, in spite of himself and her personality.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 12, 2008, 12:24:27 pm
I get the impression he does, from lengthy proximity, if nothing else.  I think he kind of feels sorry for her, but still doesn't see any other alternatives.  I wonder if new possibilities in the new millenium and the Omega in his immediate family might change things.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Temari on August 12, 2008, 12:30:51 pm
I think a3kings had a very interesting point that any wolves over a hundred years or so old would have been raised in a time where marriage was very much for life and leaving not an option. I think it was Bran who said to Mercy that it's hard to change the values you were originally brought up with.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: BigMama on August 18, 2008, 10:24:36 am
From the confrontation during the first meeting with Anna, Leah certainly uses her position in inappropriate ways within the pack. I do wonder now, however, if the addition of an Omega is going to change Bran's view of his marriage. With Anna there to help control his beserker rage, he might certainly change his mind about the necessity of a loveless union.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: charmed on August 18, 2008, 02:21:27 pm
From the confrontation during the first meeting with Anna, Leah certainly uses her position in inappropriate ways within the pack. I do wonder now, however, if the addition of an Omega is going to change Bran's view of his marriage. With Anna there to help control his beserker rage, he might certainly change his mind about the necessity of a loveless union.

I was thinking the same thing. Do you suppose he'd try to make the marriage work or try to break the mate bond and find someone? How woudl that affect him politically, with werewolf society? Or he may leave things the way they are.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Reptyle on August 19, 2008, 11:27:06 pm
Kings and other nobility in the past didn't always get to marry for love. "Heavy weighs the crown..." and all that good stuff. Bran's no different.

Bran, did what he did for the benefit of the pack, which is always his goal. They need a strong leader and he's given them one.

Additionally, Leah isn't totally lacking in the marriage. With her personality, it isn't hard to believe that some other wolf would have killed her years ago if she weren't under Bran's protection. Possibly another reason why he chose her...The Alpha in him still protecting those that need it most.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 19, 2008, 11:32:53 pm
Kings and other nobility in the past didn't always get to marry for love. "Heavy weighs the crown..." and all that good stuff. Bran's no different.

Additionally, Leah isn't totally lacking in the marriage. With her personality, it isn't hard to believe that some other wolf would have killed her years ago if she weren't under Bran's protection. Possibly another reason why he chose her...The Alpha in him still protecting those that need it most.

Now, that about Leah's need for his protection, that's a good point.  Although, I do think she'd have learned more circumspection or been royally whomped if she'd been married to someone lower ranked, and that might have been good for her.

As for Bran not marrying for love, it wasn't just rulers who didn't marry for love, it's been the norm through human (known) history that most marriages were for power or convenience of one sort or another.  Marrying for love is a modern aberration, and not universal, at that.  Consider Texas, earlier this year. . . 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Snoopy on August 21, 2008, 01:03:19 am
What happened in Texas, earlier this year??  ???
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 21, 2008, 12:21:22 pm
There's a community of fundamentalist religious group who were pushing 15 (approx) year old girls to get into polygamous marriages with older men.  The parents arranged it.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Snoopy on August 21, 2008, 12:24:13 pm
Are you serious?! Jeez. I can't even imagine... :o
Is that even legal nowadays??
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 21, 2008, 12:49:10 pm
No.  There's a continuing mess about it for various reasons, you should be able to find it on the net with google-fu.
Basically, the men were legally married to 1 woman each, and the additional wives were 'single mothers'.

But you (to get back on topic) can see that the girls at least didn't have a lot of input, let alone having 'married for love.'
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Reptyle on August 21, 2008, 04:52:11 pm
Yeah, nothing that hits the media about Texas is ever good...It gets embarrassing to live here at times.  :-\
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: a3kings on August 26, 2008, 01:05:27 pm
I agree with nightangel. It is a very messy situation. I cant wait to see ow patty handles it. If she does. I do think that bran has some affection for her if very reluctantly. That still makes him a jerk
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Tambayo on August 27, 2008, 05:17:46 am
I agree with nightangel. It is a very messy situation. I cant wait to see ow patty handles it. If she does. I do think that bran has some affection for her if very reluctantly. That still makes him a jerk
Read p.292-293. He thinks he cannot afford tenderness and similar feelings for Leah. If he did feel such and lost her he fears the beast would break out again.

I think though feeling too little is just as dangerous as feeling too much. The balance lies somewhere in the middle, but finding it isn't easy. Maybe Anna being an omega will help. Did Bran have an omega in his pack before? If not that too may explain his distance too Leah, no one outside himself to fall back on.
Could that be why Alpha's are so volatile? Now the balance in most packs depends on the alpha's strength and something to protect (submissive wolves). But if you want something strong too lean on you need a tripod. Alpha/dominants, submissive's and omega's. Without an omega the alpha's need to compensate for that loss?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kate on August 27, 2008, 08:46:07 am
Interesting theory, Tambayo, but I was thinking that Omegas were a really rare phenomenon and that it was actually rare for a pack to have one, primarily because it would take an out of control insane were to turn an Omega personality. (Don't have exact reference, but I know that was said at least once.)

And I do get the feeling that Bran is nowhere near a "usual" or "normal" case for a were at all, much less for an alpha. I get the feeling that, for him and some of the other really old ones, especially Sam, the idea of "norms" should just be chucked entirely. Eh, that's my $0.02. When you adjust for inflation...  :P
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 27, 2008, 08:56:29 am
You know, if they could find a human omega & just have them in town as general therapist, that would help.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: a3kings on August 27, 2008, 09:35:37 am
I agree with nightangel. It is a very messy situation. I cant wait to see ow patty handles it. If she does. I do think that bran has some affection for her if very reluctantly. That still makes him a jerk
Read p.292-293. He thinks he cannot afford tenderness and similar feelings for Leah. If he did feel such and lost her he fears the beast would break out again.

I know what his reasons were for choosing leah. He feels its important not to tie his emotions down to one person. but just because he has his reasons doesnt mean that it makes the situation cool beans. It all depends on what leah agreed to when they got together. Did he keep her in the dark about what was and was not going to be part of the mating? What where leahs expectations about their future?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dragonfly702 on August 28, 2008, 06:24:53 am
But you also have to think of what happens to a normal woman who is changed into a wolf. So far almost all the female wolfs you meet who are not omagas, are for lack of a better word "Bitches". It takes a strong and not soft person to be a wolf and control it, aka why there are so few women wolves.


And im probly going to be called sexest, but add 200 lbs of killing furry on to a womans time of the month....
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Gerd D. on August 28, 2008, 07:03:24 am
But you also have to think of what happens to a normal woman who is changed into a wolf. So far almost all the female wolfs you meet who are not omagas, are for lack of a better word "Bitches". It takes a strong and not soft person to be a wolf and control it, aka why there are so few women wolves.
Doesn't ring true to me, we are talking mental strenght I would assume when it comes to controling the wolf, I don't see how that should reason less female weres.
It could possibly explain a shortage of enough dominant females to make a change in were hierarchy.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on February 10, 2009, 05:20:29 pm
Maybe having Anna there will give Leah someone to talk to. Someone to share the burden of being the Marrok's mate with.
or maybe Anna will strike her like Mercy did.
either way, I think Anna will be good for Leah in the long run
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Zealith on February 10, 2009, 05:27:41 pm
I don't think Anna that Anna got a good first impression of Leah. Remember, they met in A&O and Leah said something about how Charles would have brought something like her into her pack.  A pretty good indication that Leah doesn't like Omegas.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on February 10, 2009, 05:39:45 pm
I don't always like my therapist, but that doesn't mean he isn't helpful.
Talking to a therapist when you don't expect to and suddenly realize it... running away sounds like a reasonable response
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Zealith on February 10, 2009, 05:44:39 pm
Yeah, but is Anna willing to make the extra effort to help her when it's pretty clear Leah wants nothing to do with her?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on February 10, 2009, 05:47:45 pm
Anna's an Omega. making people around her happier, healthier people is instinctive.
look what she did with Asil. She was frightned a bit by him and turns around and helps him the next minute. or with the people in the pack who abused her. she tried to smooth things over there too.
note that she did less for those who hurt her worse.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Zealith on February 10, 2009, 05:51:10 pm
Exactly. I think she may try to help Leah. But I also think Leah will refuse to be helped until Anna gives up.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on February 10, 2009, 06:01:06 pm
Therapists are trained on when to give up. Anna Isn't. She'll keep picking at it until she does something about it. Like someone who is OCD.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: alan on February 11, 2009, 01:27:10 pm
interesting picture, love to see that
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ben is mine on June 22, 2009, 12:30:35 am
She tries and asks whats wrong, but Bran dials up the phone and calls Sam. After a couple of decades or a century of that, who wouldn't feel like she did? What would you do in that situation?

I don't know if you've already been corrected, but I was too lazy to read through all the comments, and I just finished the book. Bran doesn't call Samuel. Sam calls him. Page 222

     "What's wrong?" Leah rolled over and propped her chin on her hands, her body relaxed and sated.
     "I don't know." He took a deep breath, but there had been no strangers in his room. Though his head cleared quickly, the memory of his dream eluded him. Everything except the one word: witch.
     His cell phone rang.
     "What's wrong, Da?" Samuel's voice was wide-awake. "Why did you call me?"
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Lakritz on June 22, 2009, 02:23:03 am
 
Quote
Bran doesn't call Samuel. Sam calls him.

may be true for the telephone call, as you correctly quoted. He calls for Sam in his dream. But isn't that even worse, when you know that the man you love turns instinctively to somebody else, when he ist troubled? Awake with the phone call you could always try to find reasons, why he makes this decision: He tried to spare me the trouble, he recognized the problem needed the kind of help only Sam could provide... By calling sombody in your sleep, you show that your emotional need ist for that person. And not your wife.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on June 22, 2009, 07:20:46 am
Well, he does have over a thousand years of relying on Sam wearing a groove in his mind, while he's had Leah only a couple of decades.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: charmed on June 22, 2009, 08:08:46 am
That's a good point. One quibble though, do we know for a fact that they have been mated only a few decades? He said, in one of the books, that his wolf wnated a mother for Charles, and he, Bran, had discovered the hard way that he needed a mate to control his berserker. I have the impression that it's been more than a few decades but I don't know for sure how long.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on June 22, 2009, 08:21:10 am
I suspect that wouldn't matter to Leah anyway.  She strikes me as one of those 'it's all about me' type of people. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: alan on June 22, 2009, 01:58:03 pm
I suspect that wouldn't matter to Leah anyway.  She strikes me as one of those 'it's all about me' type of people. 

Bridezilla
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on June 22, 2009, 10:06:18 pm
Leah seems self-centered; thats why bran chose her.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ben is mine on June 22, 2009, 10:49:04 pm
That's a good point. One quibble though, do we know for a fact that they have been mated only a few decades? He said, in one of the books, that his wolf wnated a mother for Charles, and he, Bran, had discovered the hard way that he needed a mate to control his berserker. I have the impression that it's been more than a few decades but I don't know for sure how long.

Yes, but it always says Charles is old, but never more than a few decades old. Therefore, she has only been mated with her less than that.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on June 22, 2009, 10:50:20 pm
he's like 200 years old, right? or is it only 100? I think Mercy mentions it in Moon Called somewhere...
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ben is mine on June 22, 2009, 10:51:18 pm
Quote
Bran doesn't call Samuel. Sam calls him.

may be true for the telephone call, as you correctly quoted. He calls for Sam in his dream. But isn't that even worse, when you know that the man you love turns instinctively to somebody else, when he ist troubled? Awake with the phone call you could always try to find reasons, why he makes this decision: He tried to spare me the trouble, he recognized the problem needed the kind of help only Sam could provide... By calling sombody in your sleep, you show that your emotional need ist for that person. And not your wife.

Yes, I know this. I was just correcting where they said that Bran picked up the phone and called Sam.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on June 22, 2009, 11:12:17 pm
Bran says he needs a mate to keep him stable... is this because Samuel is becoming less stable? If he had been leaning on Sam until he met Blue Jay Woman, then she dies and he's off balance, but  Sam isn't stable enough to support him, so he finds Leah to lean on.

Bran has trust issues... if he's leaning on her he doesn't want to trust her, in case she fails. Instead he leans on Samuel, who he has had to lean on before, and on Charles, a son who needs him.

I suspect Leah would be more jealous of Bran's relationship with Charles than with his relationship with Samuel.

I'm tired, so I'm not sure if this post makes alot of logical, coherence. sorry.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ben is mine on June 22, 2009, 11:39:09 pm
Makes sense to me :)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: cavaliergirl on June 23, 2009, 06:10:55 pm
Bran has trust issues... if he's leaning on her he doesn't want to trust her, in case she fails. Instead he leans on Samuel, who he has had to lean on before, and on Charles, a son who needs him.

I suspect Leah would be more jealous of Bran's relationship with Charles than with his relationship with Samuel.

Charles is obviously fond of Bran, has a lot of respect for him.  Yet, I don't get the feeling that Charles *needs* Bran in the normal course of events.  He leans on Bran a little when he's overcoming the effects of the silver poisoning, but in a normal day-to-day life, I don't see any kind of psychological dependence.  If anything, Charles holds himself distant and apart.  Samuel is the one who we learn has had to lean on the pack for stability for ever since he got back from Texas.

I don't think we have enough information to know who Leah is more jealous of, Charles or Samuel.  She's turned on both Mercy (who Samuel's wolf had chosen for a mate) and on Anna.  She called Charles mother a "beautiful, self-sacrificing, Indian bitch" or something close to that.  Presumably, she has a lot more hostility towards Blue Jay Woman than towards Samuel's mother, who we know nothing about. 

I don't think Bran has trust issues, more like intimacy issues.  I'd say he has a pretty good understanding of Leah.  The end of Cry Wolf even shows us a little of Bran's perspective, that love isn't necessary for the mating bond, merely trust and acceptance.  He knows his sons don't understand this, but he knows her, knows she's a bitch who doesn't always treat others well, and he accepts it.  He trusts her to be herself.  (The same way, if I was eating chicken and I held the fork a little lower than normal, I'd trust my dog to come steal the meat.  I wouldn't be happy about his appalling manners, but I'd trust him to make the attempt.)  Bran would rather put up with her snarky attitude and mind games than risk a deeper emotional connection. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: charmed on June 23, 2009, 06:24:19 pm
he's like 200 years old, right? or is it only 100? I think Mercy mentions it in Moon Called somewhere...

yes, he's 200 years old, and Patty has not yet told us how long Bran and Leah have been mates.

That's a good point. One quibble though, do we know for a fact that they have been mated only a few decades? He said, in one of the books, that his wolf wnated a mother for Charles, and he, Bran, had discovered the hard way that he needed a mate to control his berserker. I have the impression that it's been more than a few decades but I don't know for sure how long.

Yes, but it always says Charles is old, but never more than a few decades old. Therefore, she has only been mated with her less than that.

Ben, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here, or who you are talking about. PattiL and I were talking about how long Bran and Leah have been mates. Were you responding to that or to something else?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ben is mine on June 23, 2009, 10:40:12 pm
Ben, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here, or who you are talking about. PattiL and I were talking about how long Bran and Leah have been mates. Were you responding to that or to something else?
I was responding to that, just saying that they had to have been mated less then a couple of decades because they mated after Charles was born.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: charmed on June 24, 2009, 05:16:53 am
Ben, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here, or who you are talking about. PattiL and I were talking about how long Bran and Leah have been mates. Were you responding to that or to something else?
I was responding to that, just saying that they had to have been mated less then a couple of decades because they mated after Charles was born.

Ok, but I still don't understand why you think that Bran and Leah have been mated only a few decades. We know for a fact that Charles is 200 years old, Patty has stated that repeatedly in the book. On the other hand, nowhere in any of the books has she stated how long that Bran and Leah have been mated. So, I'm confused as to how and where you are gettign your numbers. In what book or story does it say or imply that it's only been a few decades?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on June 24, 2009, 05:40:16 pm
Yet, I don't get the feeling that Charles *needs* Bran in the normal course of events. 

I meant when Charles was a baby and growing up, presumably when he met Leah.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: cavaliergirl on June 26, 2009, 11:47:14 pm
At the end of Cry Wolf in the short section from Bran's pov, he says:  "It had taken him a few years after Blue Jay woman's death to find Leah".  I don't remember where, but somewhere I think we're told Charles was born around 1813?  That would make Charles 196, and I would assume a few years is less than 10, meaning Bran and Leah had been together for around 190 years.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on June 27, 2009, 06:31:45 pm
that's the time frame I was thinking, though I didn't look it up.

Way to go cav. :) you found the proof for what I felt.

although to someone more than 1000 years, 50 years may be a few years. (I can't help being Devil's Advocate, *sigh)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: cavaliergirl on June 27, 2009, 09:32:28 pm
Anna said she wanted to hear all the stories of what it was like growing up werewolf.  Maybe she will coax some details from Charles in Hunting Ground.

I wonder if Bran would have stood up for Charles more if he'd been a child around Leah.  One thing that supports the theory of 50 years or so is that Bran is a gentleman who would  never say a word against his mate.  That makes sense if one of his sons is a thousand years and the other one is 50 years old and both are more dominant than her...they can take care of themselves.  However, I have a hard time imagining Bran letting one of his very young (3 or 5 or 10 years old) be mistreated.  I think he would have stepped in and put a stop to it.  He has made his pack a refuge for abused wolves, and would protect Charles until Charles was old enough to take care of himself.

So, maybe 170 or 165 years, when Charles was 20 or 25?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: charmed on June 28, 2009, 09:41:56 am
At the end of Cry Wolf in the short section from Bran's pov, he says:  "It had taken him a few years after Blue Jay woman's death to find Leah".  I don't remember where, but somewhere I think we're told Charles was born around 1813?  That would make Charles 196, and I would assume a few years is less than 10, meaning Bran and Leah had been together for around 190 years.

Thanks cg, I couldn't remember the quote and my book was unavailable for reference.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on December 08, 2009, 02:25:45 pm
I still vote 'kick leah out!!'  bOuNcY.........cnt really remember evrything about the books, but i think i read somewhere that he chose her bcuz she was was selfish and stupid...IM O....meanin u cnt really blame his luv for charles or attention to sam is wot mkes her bitter......they hve been together for decades maybe even a century nd sh still is the sme.......she tried to kill mercy so u cn say she htes her....she goes to anna and acts bitch to her.......nowhere in the book hve has she ever dne n e thing to say she's good or she has another side to her.......i really cnt say i hve sympathy for her......nd i cnt say it's bcuz of this or that.....
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: deadfrog on December 08, 2009, 03:51:48 pm
You can't blame Leah for the fact that Bran chose her because she is shallow and selfish.
Bran and Leah have been together for a century or more. I guess Bran would have "kicked Leah out" a a long time ago if he had wanted to. The marriage is working out for him alright. I suspect that if Leah had changed noticeably while they were together he would have ended their relationship. He stayed with her because she did *not* change. If change comes in their marriage, it must come from both Bran and Leah.

We have not seen enough of Leah in the books to say if she has other sides. We only have Charles' opinion, her attack on Mercy, and her appearance in Cry Wolf. I think that her appearance in Cry Wolf actually adds a different dimension to Leah. She seemed surprised when she told Anna about her bitterness that Blue Jay Woman still comes first with Bran after all these years. She can blame that on Anna's influence but I think she was just as surprised about what she heard herself say. Shallow and selfish she may be, but I can also see how she hurts because Bran habitually shuts her out as soon as something important is coming up. I am thinking of the scene when Bran has that dream, wakes up and calls his son, only remembering Leah when she storms out of the room.   
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on December 08, 2009, 04:42:44 pm
I am thinking of the scene when Bran has that dream, wakes up and calls his son, only remembering Leah when she storms out of the room.   

Actually, Bran woke up and Samuel called him.  Remember?  Bran woke, told Leah it was a dream, and the phone rang.  Bran had mentally called Samuel in his nightmares.  You can't really blame him for that one.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on December 08, 2009, 04:53:12 pm
actually sam calls him..she asked wot was wrong he was like i dnt knw then sam called.....then she stormed out...the fone rang while he was still thinkin about the dream.....hardly think he will go hold on and fill her in......and if the way pple see her now is her true character she mite nt hve said anything useful compare to wot sam mite hve said....i cnt blame her but i cnt blame anyone else.....she goes around all bitter, how are you goin to tlk to someone like that....you are rite we dnt really knw much about her to judge...bt rite now with what we hve she's a pain.....shuld anna do anything to her to make her less of wot she is then i will be like oh rite she's nt that bad...bt then there will be the prob of bran nt wantin love in his relationship, but then anna mite fix him too....up to patty
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: CarolKat on December 08, 2009, 08:22:07 pm
Dee no offense but could you translate that to english for us old folks? I got a headache trying to decipher your post.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: deadfrog on December 09, 2009, 07:07:44 am
Actually, Bran woke up and Samuel called him.  Remember?  Bran woke, told Leah it was a dream, and the phone rang.  Bran had mentally called Samuel in his nightmares.  You can't really blame him for that one.

Thanks for correcting my mistake. Yes, Sam called him. But I am sure that Leah knew that Sam called because Bran asked him to call. And felt excluded once again. I don't blame Bran for Sam calling him, or calling out to Sam for help during his nightmare. Both Bran and Leah are to blame for the state of their relationship. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on December 09, 2009, 07:12:48 am
Yes, that part I completely agree with, although in Bran's case, it seems a very deliberate decision.  He feels sorry for her, but not sorry enough to change anything. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on December 09, 2009, 02:09:06 pm
sorry text messaging spoilt me  :-[........but yeh hope for a book that will talk more about leah......now i really want to know what's up with her....but i want to ask you guys something...do you think if bran opened up more to her she will be a nicer person....or still the leah we know now?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kate on December 09, 2009, 03:30:30 pm
Thanks for clearing that up, Dee. :P I don't know if Leah would improve or not. She's been that way for sooooo long. I think it's said somewhere that the older wolves have a hard time changing. And she doesn't strike me as particularly adaptable.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: indigoskye on December 24, 2009, 07:57:10 am
Bran was cruel to have used Leah the way that he has... but Leah has had 100 years to become a better person. She is married to a brillant magical ruler. She has completely wasted that. It's nobodies fault but her own. I think her character is doomed. I think she is going to betray Bran, in a play to get even, and then die. Forcing Bran to find someone to love. Bran deserves to be happy, and there is no happy outcome to Bran and Leah.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on December 24, 2009, 09:55:51 am
That would be a very interesting scenario, Indigoskye.  I would like to see that sort of story told too, with the kind of twists Patty could give it.

I do think that one of the reasons that there are some of the issues we see in the world result from this sort of thinking;  "happy outcome to Bran and Leah."

It isn't an "Outcome".  It's a starting point.  Just like Anna & Charles, or Mercy & Adam, it's a starting point for the ongoing process of a relationship and a life.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on December 24, 2009, 11:05:38 am
.. but Leah has had 100 years to become a better person. She is married to a brillant magical ruler. She has completely wasted that. It's nobodies fault but her own. I think her character is doomed. I think she is going to betray Bran, in a play to get even, and then die. Forcing Bran to find someone to love. Bran deserves to be happy, and there is no happy outcome to Bran and Leah.

couldn't have said it any better.. >D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: indigoskye on December 30, 2009, 12:40:05 pm
I think the scariest scenerio in the Bran/Leah quandary is if Bran begins to loose it. Everyone his age (all younger so far in the books) is going crazy. He just doesn't need someone (ie. Leah) to hold it at bay. He needs someone to love. Much like Charles and Anna. You know the "...you complete me." stuff.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: charmed on January 05, 2010, 04:06:27 pm
I think the scariest scenerio in the Bran/Leah quandary is if Bran begins to loose it. Everyone his age (all younger so far in the books) is going crazy. He just doesn't need someone (ie. Leah) to hold it at bay. He needs someone to love. Much like Charles and Anna. You know the "...you complete me." stuff.

Well, Bran sought out someone that he COULDN'T love on purpose. Have you read Cry Wolf? Bran reveals his thoughts and feelings on teh subject in there.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on January 06, 2010, 07:22:41 am
i know he chose leah on purpose but you can help but wonder (and hope) if his wolf wold start noticing and get affected by his feeling towards her.....if indeed he does hate her....since we aren't sure we only got his sons point of view........maybe he will start getting restless his wolf i mean....and just having a mate won't be enough.....though it seems like the wolf side doesn't care much what the human side wants....
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: MeowMix on March 04, 2010, 03:40:57 pm
I personally love Leah. Or rather, I love the potential Leah has as a character. I wonder about her past, her bitterness, and why she choose Bran. I get Bran's perspective, but he's such a bastard in this situation. Ignoring her as if she were nothing, anybody would go bitter. I'm surprised she's not like quiet and intimadated, the way Bran treats her. It makes me like her even more.
I hope Briggs gives more information. I'd like to see Bran vunerable to his mate, if only to prove that he's STILL a werewolf, though he rules North America. I love 'em both, and sorta want Leah to turn heroic and sacrifice herself to save him.
Plus ya know, being emotionally abused by the only alpha she has no chance to be saved from...

 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Maiv on April 05, 2010, 05:56:50 am
I think the scariest scenerio in the Bran/Leah quandary is if Bran begins to loose it. Everyone his age (all younger so far in the books) is going crazy. He just doesn't need someone (ie. Leah) to hold it at bay. He needs someone to love. Much like Charles and Anna. You know the "...you complete me." stuff.

Your last sentence made me think of a situation that came up between Adam and Mercy in SB. I think I have a better understanding why Bran is the way he is too! Mystery solved? Not yet. Maybe we're getting there. But I love how Patty puts things together for all of us to figure it out!  :D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Maiv on April 05, 2010, 07:06:33 am
Hmmm....In the beginning, I really didn't like Leah. But now that I've read everyone's comments and thoughts, I'd have to say that I love the idea of how different Bran and Leah are, which the cliche saying goes, "Opposites attract." Leah reacts too easily on her human side as I think Bran reacts more with his wolf. Which leads me to think that Leah is passive aggressive with Bran, but not to others.
But then again, I "start to think" that maybe Bran is being the passive aggressive one towards her and only her.
BUT then again, his wolf comes into play along with hers and it's such a struggle between man and wolf that I say, "Ohmigosh Patty, how are you able to create such fun and interesting characters w/o getting lost within the psychological aspect of it all?!"
Aside from wanting to write my own stories (that's if I'll ever get myself to it...), I really have to say Leah and Bran's relationship is the best-thought out. Again, after reading the posts on here, I feel much happier to understand things the way they are.
I don't like how Leah reacts and I don't like how Bran ignores her, but what I can understand is the wolf part as it is natural in nature to need each other. Now why can't humans be more basic like that? LOL, I'm sure we are, but our other emotions tend to get in the way.
My only wonder now is, will we ever get to see Leah's wolf come out and speak to us? I think she would be more sane than her human!  ;D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 05, 2010, 09:12:41 am
Just noticed again this quote from Indigoskye:
Quote
He needs someone to love. Much like Charles and Anna. You know the "...you complete me." stuff.
So no, he doesn't want that from Leah.  Remember, he had that with Blue Jay Woman.  And when she died, he nearly lost it, went berserk again.  He deliberately selected someone who doesn't complete him, so that he wouldn't lean on her the way he would do someone better matched.  An analogy would be that the "someone who completes him" is his other leg.  Well, Blue Jay Woman died, and he toppled, badly hurt.  Could have died.  Now, he wants a cane, not a new bionic leg.  He doesn't expect it to be there forever, for everything he needs, he just uses her to balance himself, knowing she could break, or be destroyed.  And with that knowledge always there, it's less likely he will fall, thrashing around hurting himself and others.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: MoonBeam on April 09, 2010, 05:54:22 pm
Anyone here ever see the film "Rebecca," based on the book by Daphne du Maurier? I see Bran like a less ostentatious maybe more down-to-earth version of Maxim deWinter (Laurence Olivier):  a little mysterious, a little condescending, mostly business with a hint of cuckoo for cocoa puffs (don't hate me!). Here's my take on the Bran-Leah tragedy:

Bran said (I think in MC) that he doesn't like lies because of how they take on a life of their own and they always end badly (I think he was talking to Mercy in the Aspen Creek motel room?). Anyway, I wonder if that wasn't a bit 'o Bran reflecting on his own lack of veracity in the past. Maybe even a foreshadowing of why his relationship with Leah is so toxic. My interpretation is that Bran may have told Leah something along the lines of ...I'll never be able to love you but I'll always take care of you, you'll never want for anything, you'll always be respected... yadayadayada. I also think that though Leah is considered old NOW, she may have been quite a bit younger when they met and maybe even somewhat naive. Not adolescent naive; more inexperienced with men naive. I mean, let's face it:  the human divorce courts are overflowing with women (and men) who got married to someone thinking "I can change him/her" or "I can deal with his/her temper" or "those shortcomings are not what I think they are." It's called denial. But it also reflects some serious inexperience and even a lack of confidence that you can do better. It only stands to reason that if a wolf is still feeling a bit of her humanity, some of this might carryover into her werewolf world.

Imagine this scenario then:  you're a young-ish (under 100) unmated female werewolf and the Marrok shows up one day making noises like he wants to court you. Maybe he approaches your family, or maybe there's a local ball of some kind thrown in his honor (a la Cinderella). Who knows. And you may not be aware of all the details of his late beloved mate's demise and how insanely in love with her he was, that he almost followed her, but you are aware that this is the Marrok for gosh sakes! EVERY wolf knows the Marrok is the alpha of all the North American werewolf packs, the single most powerful werewolf in the western hemisphere (was the jury ever out on this?)--it's a little like if the Prince of Wales meets you at a bar one night and says "hey, can I buy you dinner?" This has gotta be pretty mind-blowing stuff. You decide without a moment's thought, "...hail YES I'll go out with you!" Or maybe it's your family that decides for you. But he's certainly attractive enough, chilvalrous, even attentive; though maybe just a little aloof. He must want to be with you, though, right? 'Cuz no one's holding a gun to his head and saying "take my daughter out or else...?!" And remember, you're young-ish and maybe a bit too impressionable and haven't quite grown out of your superficiality and youthfulness. So you go out on a few somewhat successful dates and you start fantasizing:  you draw his name and yours in a heart on table napkins and think about how Mrs. Bran Cornick sounds, and all the while he's wining and dining you and making like money's no object, nothing's too good for you and everything you say is interesting or funny. I'm also assuming you don't live in Montana and probably don't know a whole helluva lot about what life's like there, especially during the snowed-in winters. I'm pretty sure he's not going to make a point of emphasizing that, either.

Then the day comes that he tells you he wants you to be his mate...but...maybe the proposal is like an afterthought thrown across the kitchen table from the other side of the newspaper he's holding up. "Oh, by the way, dahling, I think it would be so veddy good of you if you'd consent to be my mate, what, but don't read too much into it, there's a good luv." He's the freakin' Marrok!!! Maybe you would have liked a little more romance and sentimentality, but you figure, you'll get the man and sort out the details later. 'Cuz no matter what he says, he's gotta love you just a little, right? I mean, he could have any female werewolf he chooses, but he chooses you. That's gotta count for something, doesn't it?

Do you remember Joan Fontaine's character in "Rebecca?" I don't think of Leah as ever being quite that young, naive and corn-fed, but I think you get the picture.

I also wonder whether Bran's experience weaving a big fat lie-of-omission wasn't some of the motivation for his interference with Sam & Mercy's elopement. I mean, let's say my imagination is not that far off, and Bran was actually feeling a bit raw about how unhappy Leah was because even though from the beginning he told her the truth--as he saw it--deep down he knows that Leah couldn't possibly have understood what he really meant by "I want you for my mate, I'll always take care of you, I'll never leave you, BUT I CAN NEVER LOVE YOU...."

Or maybe he just lied and has lived to regret the deception because every time he looks at her he is reminded that her unhappiness is caused wholly by his unwillingness to treat her like someone he respects and loves as a man as well as a wolf.

I really LOVE the character of Bran, but Bran and Leah are soooooo tragic. I feel sorry for both of them. I don't know that I want to know more. I used to.

Okay, I still do. But I kind'a don't.

mb

Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: spencerharper on July 10, 2010, 05:56:38 am
I think that Leah might actually care for Bran, but she is basically competing for his heart with a dead woman.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: RoseOnyxis on August 09, 2010, 04:17:56 am
I'm actually shocked at the outpouring of sympathy for Leah and the distaste for Bran I read throughout this thread (I read the whole thing, I'm exhausted lol) :o

I have not more than once felt anything nice for Leah. She's written as a bitch, mated for the power and Patty even said "Leah knew what she was getting into when she mated with Bran Chat 2007-05-20". I was under the impression that Bran's wolf chose Leah because he had decided that they had been alone for too long, not Bran the man picking a young naive girl and coaxing her into an unhealthy relationship which turned her into a nasty bitter woman. She was mean and ignorant before Bran, that's why he was okay with his wolf choosing her as he wouldn't be in 'danger' of falling for her (I thought I read that in one of the books, Cry Wolf or one of the A&O books - I read all 3 over again rather recently so it's all a bit muddled right now).

If I feel sorry for anyone, it's definitely Bran - he lost the love of his life and it nearly killed him. I see Bran as a man fulfilling his duty to be sane and strong enough to rule a continents worth of wolves while not complaining even though he's probably been miserable for 100+ years, not an a-hole selfishly stringing poor Leah along.

But anyway, my hope is that there will be someone else for Bran, though I'm skeptical that anything will change in Bran and Leah's relationship in these books at all as it doesn't seem to be Patty's focus. I would be upset if she patched things up between them and they fell in love because I've spent multiple books happily disliking Leah, I don't want to like her - and neither does Bran lol


My question though, is how does one break the mate bond - as some of you seem to have figured out, sounds like Leah and Bran have been together for a century or so, would that make it even harder for them to separate? I feel like it would take something huge for them to part, it'd have to be the main plot of a book! That alone gives me less hope that Bran will find someone new. I think we'll just be stuck with Leah and Bran in an unhappy loveless relationship for the rest of the series :-'
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Anwyn on August 11, 2010, 06:45:52 pm
I keep hoping beyond hope maybe Bran will notice Leah. Maybe he'll fight it, kick up a fuss and pout some. Maybe he'll throw things down between the two of them trying to make himself hate her again.  Then maybe he'll just give in to what he's feeling. Maybe he'll just warm up to Leah. I think Anna will fix Leah eventually. I'm hoping Leah maybe lightens up, and makes it easier for people especially Bran to see she's not some terrible woman after all.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on August 12, 2010, 08:19:39 am
I'm actually shocked at the outpouring of sympathy for Leah and the distaste for Bran I read throughout this thread (I read the whole thing, I'm exhausted lol) :o

I have not more than once felt anything nice for Leah. She's written as a bitch, mated for the power and Patty even said "Leah knew what she was getting into when she mated with Bran Chat 2007-05-20".

What's not to understand? I mean, generally speaking, a woman doesn't start out being a bitter, nasty bitch when she gets married. Women are, by our very nature, hopeful, wouldn't you say? Even if she marries for money, prestige and power, there's a part of her that wants to be appreciated for what she can bring to her marriage. No woman wants to see pity or contempt reflected in the eyes of her spouse daily. No woman wants her opinions to be ignored continually or not to be consulted on important matters that also affect her family. No woman would be comfortable for very long in a marriage where the grown children of her spouse are even more contemptuous of her than her husband. Resentment and bitterness are weeds that are fertilized and cultivated by years of neglect and inconsideration. Everyone has a hand in this. Leah didn't become bitter in a vacuum.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of Leah who I feel is not, at this moment, a well-rounded character. Right now, her "flatness" serves the purpose of showing off Bran's stoicism and complexity because right now, the stories are primarily about Mercy and Adam and Anna and Charles and Sam and Bran and their bonds to each other. And they may remain so. Bran is a highly sympathetic character. But Anna--the Omega--brought out the vulnerability in Leah for all (especially readers) to see. And that definitely sits in the category of things-that-make-you-go-hmmmm. We all read it. The woman is frustrated, so she lashes out by using/abusing her power whenever she can get away with it. She feels hurt, so she refuses to support her husband by boycotting a funeral. She feels cut-off and invisible, so she generates negative attention and verbally attacks Anna before she's even gotten to know her. And given half a chance (and a touch of Omega therapy), Leah will tell you how much it all hurts--she will even shed tears.

For me, this all begs a question:  is it too late for Leah (and her relationship with Bran) to be redeemed? Can someone who is in an extremely unhealthy co-dependency with a mate/spouse who doesn't want it any other way, break free of her cancerous bitterness and find her own inner stoic? And how would Bran react to a kinder, gentler Leah? Would he find his human side falling in love with a mate he only wants for wolf balance?

My 2 cents....

bj
(formerly MoonBeam)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on August 12, 2010, 11:42:07 am
What's not to understand? I mean, generally speaking, a woman doesn't start out being a bitter, nasty bitch when she gets married.

Actually, I have known women who, while not necessarily bitter, were nasty bitches when they got married (and frequently, before).  (Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, I can recollect a few who were bitter by nature, and brought that into their marriages.)  In Leah's case, I suspect she was, only because Bran is described as having chosen her precisely because she was so completely unlovable.  And yes, that was a very cold-blooded decision, which I always interpreted as partly because he's so VERY old that he brings that icy detachment to such decisions.  But I suspect Leah's decision to marry him was a fairly cold-blooded decision as well: marry for power and wealth. 

I don't mean to say she's deserving of no sympathy at all.  I just don't see her as so hard done by as all that.  And even if she is, it doesn't excuse her behavior one bit.  She's a bully, and being bitter doesn't justify that. 

I do agree with you, lostbird, that at this moment, Leah is not as rounded out as she may become later.  And then I may completely change my mind about her...  LOL
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on August 12, 2010, 12:12:40 pm
In Leah's case, I suspect she was, only because Bran is described as having chosen her precisely because she was so completely unlovable.  And yes, that was a very cold-blooded decision, which I always interpreted as partly because he's so VERY old that he brings that icy detachment to such decisions.

Okay, Ell, that's an excellent point. Hadn't thought about the effect of Bran's long life on how he arrives at his decisions. I mean, he is muchmuchmuch older than most weres in the world (only Samuel and Asil come to mind as approaching Bran's longevity) and, somehow, through long life and unthinkable tragedy, he still hasn't lost his mind or his will to live.

I actually agree with Patti L., that what Bran wants in Leah is a cane; nothing more. And at this point, if something were to happen to Leah, there's an Omega to help him get through it. But I confess, I'm just a garden-variety romantic! I want EVERYONE to be happy--even, eventually, the Leah's of the Mercyverse. I'd like to believe there's a fixable solution to her completely objectionable behavior. That she is redeemable.

Failing that, I'd prefer Patty banish Leah in some spectacular fashion ...  >D  ... so that Bran can find true love and be happy ... again!

bj
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on August 13, 2010, 08:18:17 am
Maybe they could find both find true love, and split amicably...  ;D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Varg on August 13, 2010, 10:35:55 am
I agree on that one Ellyll. That would be a really good solution.  ;D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 13, 2010, 11:18:28 am
Or if they split amicably; one with true love, the other simply content...?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on August 13, 2010, 12:17:01 pm
i think leah and bran should stay together if not come to a compromise on their relationship....even though i dislike her she's not a main character or involved in any plot of the books so i really couldnt care less..plus i can't picture bran leaving leah or leah leaving bran and bran falling for some character.

also when i think about it maybe patty meant-when she said leah knew what she was getting into- that she knew of bluejay woman and the state he was in. and i think no matter how bitchy someone is there's a reason maybe a past thing..maybe she though she could get him to love her and after a century her bitterness grew.

also i don't want to make bran the victim by saying it's leah's fault , there was a part in MC i think that he as talking to mercy in the motel and said something of how lies grow into ugly things (not exactly what he said i don't have the books with me) but it seemed personal. maybe he was referring to his relationship with leah. if he is aware of how it's affecting her  and still goes on with it that way then it becomes a selfish act. i mean he's not naive i'm sure he has a sense of how she feels, he could read mercy, even making her think he was reading her mind (which i suspect he kinda does) and he knew her for what 13yrs or so?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Varg on August 13, 2010, 01:16:56 pm
*nods*
As long as the split was amicable. Because Leah would wreak complete havoc and destroy as much as she could otherwise.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Janilee on August 13, 2010, 01:45:47 pm
What would their wolves do?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Varg on August 13, 2010, 01:52:21 pm
I assumed the wolves would want the parting too. Otherwise it would just be a mess.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Janilee on August 13, 2010, 02:04:24 pm
I agree with you. It just seemed to be an assumption that several people were making. I'm not certain that can be an assumption that can be made. Remember Bran's wolf needs a mate and has accepted Leah in this role. Bran wants a mate whom he can't love. Bran chose a woman he can't love. Bran's wolf has accepted and this arrangement has worked.

From Leah's point of view she is functioning at the level she can function. I don't remember reading how deeply her wolf is involved. After the suggested length of this union, I assume her wolf has accepted the situation as well.

This level of commitment is not likely to lead to any amicable split.

As much as I'd never likely reach out to Leah as a friend, this relationship works. Bran remains stable and Leah has enough power to feel important.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 13, 2010, 02:14:00 pm
Short of some unforeseen event changing the dynamic between them, like someone popping up who is a MUCH better mate for one of them, I don't see it breaking up.  Leah will continue to make relatively petty power plays, using/abusing his power to take out her frustration on others.  Anna's Omega power may shift things, and if somehow Bran and she get forced into public, they could see that stressing the relationship out of shape, but I really don't know.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Varg on August 13, 2010, 02:21:58 pm
Janilee you pretty much summed up what I think too. The other is just what if thinking. Well, all of this is, but based on the conditions as they are presented in the book that seems to be the way of it.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on August 14, 2010, 12:29:54 pm
ok i may be stressing it here but somehow i don't think brans wolf will agree just because bran and leah agree (hypothetical  situation ofcourse) :-whistle. the wolf chose to be have a mate because it thought bran had been alone long enough. bran just happened to choose leah right. but has it been mentioned in the books that the wolves of both leah and bran also don't like each other? the way i understand it is the wolf and human even though have a bond and a common ground together still have minds of their own.

ok the might be a bad example but look at when sam wanted to kill himself. and the wolf came out to protect both of them to prevent what his human side wanted. that's the senario i picture for bran for some reason. i just feel if there's no replacement the wolf would not want to go through the lonely faze bran goes through again. and the chance of bran meeting a replacement is kinda small seeing as how he hardly leaves montana till something comes up
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Zealith on August 14, 2010, 07:00:52 pm
I believe it was in Cry Wolf, though it might have been in Hunting Ground, Charles said something along the lines of Bran and Leah being as tight as any pair wolf to wolf.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Brittany on August 14, 2010, 07:53:43 pm
I believe it was in Cry Wolf, though it might have been in Hunting Ground, Charles said something along the lines of Bran and Leah being as tight as any pair wolf to wolf.

Here it is:

Quote from: Hunting Ground, pg. 234
Was [Anna] only doing her best to live with the creature inside her? Giving it what it wanted? That was what his father did with his mate. Wolf to wolf they were as tight as any mated pair he'd ever seen--man to woman... they did not match. [Charles] didn't want that for Anna.

This took place in the hotel room after Anna and Charles get back from visiting the scene of Chastel's murder.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 15, 2010, 07:15:56 am
They may be tight as wolves, but their human part needs work. :-*
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: RoseOnyxis on August 15, 2010, 10:29:18 pm
What's not to understand? I mean, generally speaking, a woman doesn't start out being a bitter, nasty bitch when she gets married. Women are, by our very nature, hopeful, wouldn't you say? Even if she marries for money, prestige and power, there's a part of her that wants to be appreciated for what she can bring to her marriage. No woman wants to see pity or contempt reflected in the eyes of her spouse daily. No woman wants her opinions to be ignored continually or not to be consulted on important matters that also affect her family. No woman would be comfortable for very long in a marriage where the grown children of her spouse are even more contemptuous of her than her husband. Resentment and bitterness are weeds that are fertilized and cultivated by years of neglect and inconsideration. Everyone has a hand in this. Leah didn't become bitter in a vacuum.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of Leah who I feel is not, at this moment, a well-rounded character. Right now, her "flatness" serves the purpose of showing off Bran's stoicism and complexity because right now, the stories are primarily about Mercy and Adam and Anna and Charles and Sam and Bran and their bonds to each other. And they may remain so. Bran is a highly sympathetic character. But Anna--the Omega--brought out the vulnerability in Leah for all (especially readers) to see. And that definitely sits in the category of things-that-make-you-go-hmmmm. We all read it. The woman is frustrated, so she lashes out by using/abusing her power whenever she can get away with it. She feels hurt, so she refuses to support her husband by boycotting a funeral. She feels cut-off and invisible, so she generates negative attention and verbally attacks Anna before she's even gotten to know her. And given half a chance (and a touch of Omega therapy), Leah will tell you how much it all hurts--she will even shed tears.

But my question is why are people assuming Bran made her that way? I read that Bran specifically picked Leah because she was already a (bitch, for lack of a better word), someone after his money and the power of being an alpha's mate - that was my point as to why I'm amazed at the dislike there is for him on this thread. I didn't assume that he ignored her and treated her badly, causing her to become the way she is. The picture that was painted, for me, was Bran as a victim of sorts (romantically speaking) and Leah as the big bad meanie. The fact that Bran won't let anyone speak badly against her and that it was also said that he hasn't said anything negative about her either makes me think that he's not an emotionally abusive husband, just someone who's accepted the fact that a woman he doesn't get along with is the mate his wolf chose for him because he lost the woman he loved.

I'm sure we will learn more about Leah's back story (and I agree, probably with Anna's help) and I'm sure it's a sad one to have made her the way she is, but I don't think that Bran was the one who made her that way, therefore I'm not mad at him - I just want him to find someone he can love again, even if he doesn't want to.

I hope I didn't repeat myself too much there, I tend to talk in circles sometimes -_- sorry
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on August 16, 2010, 02:41:41 am

I hope I didn't repeat myself too much there, I tend to talk in circles sometimes -_- sorry


nah you aren't talking in circles the discussion in this topic is the one that's going in circles :-whistle
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on August 16, 2010, 06:52:39 am
But my question is why are people assuming Bran made her that way?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think anyone on this board is assuming anything. We're just considering possible backstory scenarios by comparing our individual takes on what we've read because it's interesting and fun to do and sometimes, through this process, we gain more insight into the characters and the stories--in this case, more about Bran, more about Leah and more about their relationship and how it relates to everyone else in the Mercyverse.


This kind of "dialogue" lends itself to talking-in-circles ... so welcome to the club!


bj
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 20, 2010, 12:39:46 pm
I don't blame Bran, I think he is a good person, but someone did a number on Leah and maybe Bran can help her by working on their relationship.  :-whistle
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 20, 2010, 01:32:34 pm
Very possibly it was several someones, like the "conditioning" that Anna got.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 20, 2010, 04:36:40 pm
Oh, that is just sad. Makes me think of Leah in a whole new way :-'
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on August 24, 2010, 11:16:30 am
Funny how I came into this discussion hating leah and now giving her the benefit of the doubt....now I can't wait for the other A&O books...till then rereading the others should keep me busy
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 24, 2010, 04:26:33 pm
Yes, people arguing over who did what why always tends to make people think. :D But sill sypathetic to Leah now :-[
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kate on August 24, 2010, 05:36:44 pm
Sorry, I'm still not sympathetic to Leah. After a certain point in life, what has happened to you in the past ceases to be an excuse to act badly. If she's unhappy with Bran, well, it takes two to tango. She certainly seems happy to grasp for all the power she can get. She doesn't like the side issues, but she has many other choices other than being insufferable and mean.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Zealith on August 24, 2010, 07:16:37 pm
I agree with Kate. Bad things may have happened, but you can either try and change your situation or you can stew in your own resentment.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 24, 2010, 07:24:47 pm
Which is something you'd think she'd have learned in... how long?  150 years?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: RoseOnyxis on August 25, 2010, 12:04:51 am
Sorry, I'm still not sympathetic to Leah. After a certain point in life, what has happened to you in the past ceases to be an excuse to act badly. If she's unhappy with Bran, well, it takes two to tango. She certainly seems happy to grasp for all the power she can get. She doesn't like the side issues, but she has many other choices other than being insufferable and mean.

Hear, hear! ;D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Elle on August 25, 2010, 06:50:03 am
I'm such a Leah apologist.  ;D

I know she's a horrible person. We love to hate her. I love to hate her anyway.

She does have a power trip going. I can't really see a situation where she'd give up being the mate to the Marrok. It's a huge step down in power if she and Bran split. She likes that power too much.

She did know what she was getting into when she accepted Bran, I'm not sure if she thought she could change him and as a result she's resented him more for the fact that she couldn't.

I hope we learn more about their history and how they met. I could see Leah pursuing Bran and not the other way around. We know Bran's wolf chose her for stability reasons and Bran accepted his wolf's decision. I do love how he's set restrictions on their bond. I think that's for his stability as well. He's so complex, I love him.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Midangel on August 25, 2010, 07:24:51 am
Leah is badddd! And yes, I love to hate her also :D.  And what Kate said also!

Making other people suffer because of the problems she has with Bran makes her petty and she's not a character I will ever like. With the sort of power she has her in position, it makes her even more detestable in the way she treats others, and it's not their fault that her relationship with Bran sucks. Yet she loves the power that comes with it, and with someone who loves power like she does, it makes my inner alarm bells ring.

When I look at Mercy and Anna, I would love for Bran to find happiness again at some point in his life - gosh knows that he deserves it - that Mercy and Anna have with Adam and Charles. And I can't see Leah being that person. This is the big romantic in me is speaking though.  ;)





Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 25, 2010, 11:11:57 am
but you all say that what she went through should have been almost forgotten and the way she behaves not affected by it... Think of Anna after three years is still shy around dominant males.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kate on August 25, 2010, 12:08:28 pm
First off, sorry but the comparison doesn't really, well, compare. Three years vs. over a hundred years? Not even close. Secondly, none of us are saying that she should forget about it or act like nothing bad ever happened. But as you grow up, you realize that you are responsible for your own happiness. This means that sometimes you have to move past wrongs done to you in the past, and learn to deal with them without making other people suffer. One person's unhappiness is never an excuse for making others feel bad.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on August 25, 2010, 01:59:26 pm
Besides, we have absolutely no indication that Leah has suffered anything, much less the sort of abuse that Anna went through.  And while it may stink to have no respect or love from your husband, she may not have earned it.  Think of Mrs. Bennet in Pride and Prejudice. 

Besides, while Anna may have timidity issues, Leah's a bully.  And I can't abide bullies.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: RoseOnyxis on August 25, 2010, 03:35:39 pm
but you all say that what she went through should have been almost forgotten and the way she behaves not affected by it... Think of Anna after three years is still shy around dominant males.

We haven't been told that Leah was a victim of any kind of abuse, she's only been painted as someone who abuses the power Bran shares with her and that she's resentful of Bran's previous mate. But I also have to point out that it hasn't been 3 years since Anna was abused, just that she was Changed 3 years ago - her abuse only ended when she met Charles which so far seems to be only a few months or so. Leah's had almost 200 years to come to terms with whatever she may or may not have gone through.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Has on August 25, 2010, 03:49:11 pm
I do have some sympathy for Leah but then her behavior and attitude really taps that down and like what everyone has said - 200 years is enough time to learn to let go of the past. Like what Adam said to Ben don't let the past get to you otherwise it will end up dragging you down. And I am not sure if she had an abusive past but then she was born in a period where women had less rights but she has used her power for status and for me that gives out warning signs. And I don't think she even knows Bran full past especially being a berserker which I can see her using that against him - could be a plot point in the future.

But the interesting thing about their mating is that although their wolves are tight the human sides aren't and that is going to spell trouble even if they could work things out - Leah with her human side is not a fitting mate for Bran and I think that is going to come home to roost especially if there is a someone (I hope so) who can rock the boat.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Midangel on August 26, 2010, 06:52:13 am
I would love it if someone comes along to rock the boat, and Leah does something so awful that makes her get the boot. :D

I agree Has. When you have someone like Leah, in her high position, who abuses their power like that, it's not a good sign. And while Bran is pretty ruthless, he doesn't make others suffer.

Edited to add: I could totally see Leah manipulate and control situations regarding Bran if she finds out about his beserker.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on August 26, 2010, 07:35:07 am
Well, I am not--repeat, NOT--a Leah apologist. I don't like her at all. But I do love the conflict that Patty has created for her and Bran. I love the complexity of it all. But I really have to ask, again (devil's advocate, if you will), doesn't anyone on this forum believe in redemption? Or is it just that the vast majority of y'all don't want redemption for Leah? No how, no way???


Inquiring minds....


bj
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Janilee on August 26, 2010, 07:39:55 am
If she finds redemption, the conflict Bran set up for to save himself will not continue. I like the conflict. I think it makes a good part of the story.

This has nothing to do with my personal belief in the possibility of redemption. I have a friend who is a recovering alcoholic. The way she has turned her life around makes me firmly believe in personal redemption.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Jax on August 26, 2010, 08:43:17 am
I just don't see Bran letting something or someone rock the boat in terms of their relationship. He chose Leah for a reason. He needed to make sure he wouldn't react to the loss of his mate the way he reacted to losing Charles' mother. Something about Leah earned his distaste, even in the beginning, otherwise she would not have fulfilled the role he needed in a wife/mate: someone who he could not love. So the idea that she is this hateful because she's in a loveless marriage is one that I had to discard. (Though I'll admit that I gave her that excuse once upon a time.) There may be something from before their marriage that contributed to her character flaws, but I'm more inclined to just see her as unpleasant.
That being said, kudos to Bran for insisting on his wife being respected, because he's GOT to know that what he's done is insulting and hurtful. "I married you because you are inherently unloveable" is a nasty pill to swallow. She could certainly handle it better, and move past it, but I'm not so sure I could, I don't care HOW long I had. Till death do us part + centuries long lifespan + purposely loveless marriage = seriously peeved woman. I think if she was really clever and wanted to get under his skin, she would have woo'd his love ones, been the sweetheart of a wife who made everyone love her. I just don't think she's capable of it. Plus, everyone knows better by now.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on August 26, 2010, 09:37:02 am
Nicely said, Jax!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 26, 2010, 09:43:46 am
Jax, I like the points you bring up, there.  And it points out one of the habits of werewolves, and I think it may be part of the reason that the older ones go kind of nuts.  They do not change their behavior habits very much, they are traditionalists.
Asil, while certainly he was bedeviled by Mariposa, I think is also somewhat age sick, as Anna felt when she first met him.  Given that he is relatively close to Bran & Samuel's age, as opposed to the couple of hundred to three hundred years that seems to be more often where the wolves go 'soft', it's entirely likely.  He thought, himself, it Cry Wolf, that he got tired of seeing, saying, hearing, and doing the same things again and again, I wonder if the combination of uprooting themselves every 30 years or so & moving to fool the mundanes, while keeping the same jobs or other habits, isn't part of the boredom problem they face.  Just like some people can do the same extremely repetitious job for a 30 year career, others manage 10, or 5, while others go into screaming tantrums in a couple of months, while yet others do the job, but hate it and make those around them miserable over it instead of going somewhere else to do something different; some personalities can do better with that kind of option.  Leah's a dog in the manger, and has been for over a century and a half.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 26, 2010, 11:09:04 am
So what you are saying is...?  ??? (a little confused)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on August 26, 2010, 11:28:13 am
Sorry, I did ramble, didn't I?
Leah was told what to expect before Bran & his wolf accepted her, and she agreed to it, thinking she could handle it.  Werewolves tend to (as far as I recall what we've seen) keep basically the same kinds of job each time they move to disguise their non-aging nature.  They get stuck in ruts.  They can, and some do, break out of those, if they've got the right personality, the right opportunities, or minds, and if their alphas agree to allow it.
Leah is like someone who agreed to a 30 year contract to - oh, beat carpets.  She was okay at first, knowing it would raise dust that would coat her skin and hair, and get into her lungs, the "pay" she derived from it was sufficient, as far as she could see.  But now, she's seeing other people using vacuum cleaners, and not getting coated, and having time off, and joking together, etc.  And she can't do those things, because of the way she interprets her contract, which she doesn't think to re-negotiate with her 'employer', so she's meanly getting dust on everyone else, and interrupting their jokes, and forcing them to come in on their days off, as it were.  And making her 'employer' put up with all the muss and fuss involved in beating rugs - even if it's raining - rather than get a vacuum, or take the carpet into the garage to beat, instead of out in the rain.
She can't have what she wants, so she won't let others enjoy what they have around her.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on August 26, 2010, 11:36:09 am
Strange but very nice analogy, Patti ...  ;)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 26, 2010, 12:04:46 pm
I get it now. An odd analogy though.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Midangel on August 26, 2010, 01:02:54 pm
I'm all for redemption in some cases, but in others, no, I don't believe in it because some people don't deserve second chances. But that's for another discussion.  :)

As others have said previously, Leah has had over 200 years. And while we don't know what's gone on in her past, the fact that Bran's own children have never liked her from the start reinforces to me - along with her meanness to others and her being so power hungry - that she's a capital Witch, but exchange the W with a B. 

If I had to put up with Leah's behaviour for over 200 years, making everyone miserable around me, abusing her position - and trying to kill Mercy (that's a biggie for me) - then no, I don't believe in redemption for her. Bran chose Leah because he knew he would never fall in love with her, but he's going live a lot more longer. Can he really live the rest of his life without someone he loves, while watching his sons make their own lives. Even though his wolf is satisfied, what about his human side? I think it's definitely going to effect him sometime in the future.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Jax on August 26, 2010, 01:45:48 pm
I think his wolf is satisfied with her, and his human side has his sons, Mercy, the Marrock Pack, and all the other packs to help fill whatever void he might have in his relationship with Leah. Not saying that he doesn't have moments that he might want more, but his life is dedicated to keeping his Pack, all of his Packs, safe and healthy.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on August 26, 2010, 02:08:16 pm
But I really have to ask, again (devil's advocate, if you will), doesn't anyone on this forum believe in redemption? Or is it just that the vast majority of y'all don't want redemption for Leah? No how, no way???

Of course I believe in redemption.  But redemption doesn't just magically happen.  I've seen nothing in Leah as presented so far that shows someone redeeming herself, although I may have missed it or interpreted something differently.  Where have you found her to be in the 'process' of redemption?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on August 26, 2010, 04:23:36 pm
I've seen nothing in Leah as presented so far that shows someone redeeming herself, although I may have missed it or interpreted something differently.  Where have you found her to be in the 'process' of redemption?

Sorry ... didn't mean to imply by the question that I think Leah has started down that path. Not magically or otherwise. Like I said, devil's advocate. But I guess I'm of two minds where Leah is concerned:

(1) Leah is a female version of Justin--she enjoys exploiting the Marrok's power and she enjoys cultivating fear and loathing wherever she goes. Her capacity for real violence is kept in check only because of the presence and vigilance of the Marrok and his sons. Though, as we saw in Moon Called (when Leah attempted to attack Mercy),  she is definitely going to try to be violent when it suits her, regardless of the Cornicks.

(2) Leah lives with emotional pain and is vulnerable. It's one thing for her to submit to Anna's questioning because she feels compelled to do so. It's another thing entirely to shed tears over it. Anna's Omega aspect calmed Leah's wolf so completely that as she explained why she had been absent from the funeral, Leah was herself shocked to find tears on her face. Perhaps they were only stress tears. She did seem horrified, now that I think about it. But I can't help but be intrigued.

For me, vanilla villains are only truly entertaining in Disney flicks and slasher films. Even Severus Snape has a complex back story in which he is an insecure half-blood preyed upon by the cool kids at school and he is, we learn in the end, redeemed by love (for Lillie Potter, the only student who was ever nice to him--yeah, he was probably in love with her, too). Right now, Leah is still a pretty one-dimensional character. Not very interesting or entertaining except to wonder when she'll show up next, how nasty will she be when she does, and what will the good guys do the next time to stuff her back into her smelly little box. Because we know already that Leah is always going to be thwarted by Bran and company.

It's the relationship between Leah and Bran that I, personally, find fascinating in a rubbernecking sorta way. That's my feeling in a great big nutshell. If Leah's going to have to stick around, I already know a little, I'd like to know more. What motivated someone like Leah--selfish, mean-spirited and power-hungry--to accept the Marrok's proposal? Was it just the access to his power and the Marrok pack's money? Was she such a rank bitch even before she met him? Is she really as stupid as she seems?

I don't need Leah to be redeemed by anything or anybody because RIGHT NOW, I really don't like her character. But if Leah's just going to be Bran's Justin-equivalent, well, who cares, really? She might as well be dead....

bj
(just thinking outloud, and yes, I realize this is Mercy's series, not Bran's and Leah's--so it's not supposed to be about them ...  :-\ )
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Jax on August 26, 2010, 05:02:40 pm
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that Leah knew that Bran wanted a loveless marriage? I just can't remember it, and now it's buggin me.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on August 26, 2010, 06:27:14 pm
Now that you say it, Jax, I'm not sure that it ever was.  That's a good point.

Lostbird, I think I see what you mean, and I have to agree with you.  I doubt that Leah is quite as bad as a Justin-style sociopath, and it would certainly be more interesting to get a bit more insight into what makes her tick, whether it gives us sympathy for her or not.  Clearly, since she's generating such an active discussion, she's interested a lot of readers.  And I agree that it would be fascinating to see more of her and get a better sense of her as a character.   :)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on August 27, 2010, 01:34:06 am
lol who knew leah could be so complex....i think i've assumed things about leah to the brink of forgetting they were never mentioned. but lostbird is right she's a one dimensional character,  and i doubt even when she redeems herself it would be fully to the extent of apologizing to everyone and sending fruit baskets. she'll still be somewhat blunt i think and still reign as the least favourite character. lucky she's a background character


but i still don't want bran to find someone else :-whistle. not to be mean i love bran. but i like their complicated relationship. >D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: RoseOnyxis on August 27, 2010, 02:05:41 am
I know that Bran chose Leah because he wouldn't fall for her and because he doesn't want to go through the pain of losing someone he loves again, but for entertaining romantic story's sake, I want him to find someone - not that he would go looking, but I would love for maybe a new character to be introduced to give Bran another chance at love. It's been almost 200 years since Blue Jay Woman died and having friends and family like his sons and Mercy doesn't fill the same void as having someone to love romantically. And I say just 'cause you don't want to fall in love, doesn't mean you won't ;)

@Jax - I read it in a chat quote with Patty that "Leah knew exactly what she was getting into when she mated with Bran", but I don't think it was said in any of the books so far.

EDIT: Patti, I enjoyed your analogy LOL it reminded me of the random stuff I come up with
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Midangel on August 27, 2010, 04:41:38 am
RoseOnyxis, you said it perfectly. :)

Bran deserves to have a chance at love again, and loving your sons and family is definitely not the same. I think it would be incredibly sad to think that Bran will live the rest of his life - living as he does now with Leah - with a women he doesn't love, and doesn't like. As RoseOnyxis said, I want Bran to find someone else, and find happiness at some point in his life.

Also, I remember another chat quote where Patty said that while Bran will never do anything to betray Leah, Leah does not have the same compulsion.


Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 27, 2010, 10:52:32 am
Hint hint... :D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: leaf on August 30, 2010, 02:20:25 pm
I felt so sorry for both Leah & Bran at the end of Cry Wolf - could see why he had chosen her but so sad for both of them.  Especially since her horribleness is jealousy of the people he appears to care more for.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on August 31, 2010, 10:53:04 am
Both of them have probably been through a lot and have much more to go through.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on September 01, 2010, 10:49:24 am

Something that occurred to me while reading over this fascinating discussion:

Werewolves tend to ... get stuck in ruts.  They can, and some do, break out of those, if they've got the right personality, the right opportunities, or minds, ...

 Somewhere (I think Cry Wolf) Anna is thinking about the fact that her wolf helped her survive because the wolf accepts what is and makes the best of it. or something like that. This is, long term, the same thing that pushes older wolves into getting in ruts. Humans get bored easily. Wolves endure. Humans look to  the future, wolves live in the now.

Bran and Leah are in a rut (as far as there relationship is concerned). They have been for about 100 years. they have stopped looking into the future, and are stuck in the now. Their wolves are happy, but their humans are miserable. 
At some point something is going to change.

Either one of them is going to die, go crazy, etc.
OR one of them is going to decide 'that's enough, something has to change.'
OR some external influence is going to (unstableize?) their rut (Anna, Werewolves coming out, etc.)

Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on September 01, 2010, 11:40:51 am
Either one of them is going to die, go crazy, etc.
OR one of them is going to decide 'that's enough, something has to change.'
OR some external influence is going to (unstableize?) their rut (Anna, Werewolves coming out, etc.)

I agree with your summation. And any one of these options is preferable to Leah as bitchy wife caricature. I would love to see some destablization from outside forces, but that may be too obvious (i.e., Bran meets someone who rocks his world, maybe his soul mate, and he starts to rethink Leah). I think the second option would be really interesting because there's no telling how this would be manifested, but it could pull in all kinds of other characters and potential subplots having to do with overthrowing the Marrok, etc.

Here's another thought: Leah meets HER soul mate and has to choose between power/prestige and happiness. Having endured many years of unhappiness, it would be interesting to see if she would be tempted to change it up.

Just me dreaming ...  9)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Has on September 01, 2010, 12:05:13 pm
That would be a twist actually if Leah was the one that found someone else!!!! But would she give up her status as the mate of the Marrok even though she is unhappy? But I agree something is going to give with Leah and Bran.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on September 01, 2010, 12:15:00 pm
I think she would go for the 'happy" option. She seemed very upset when Anna forced her to reviel her fealings.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Avarel on September 01, 2010, 12:15:45 pm
That would be a twist actually if Leah was the one that found someone else!!!! But would she give up her status as the mate of the Marrok even though she is unhappy? But I agree something is going to give with Leah and Bran.
There is too much dynamic tension for it to happen otherwise!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on September 01, 2010, 12:34:39 pm
That would be a twist actually if Leah was the one that found someone else!!!! But would she give up her status as the mate of the Marrok even though she is unhappy? But I agree something is going to give with Leah and Bran.

Hmmm ... I think if Leah found her soul mate (or someone she couldn't resist), it would be VERY interesting to see Bran's reaction unfold--both the human side as well as the wolf side. Right now, he believes that he needs her to keep the berserker content. I think Anna and her Omega aspect could do this for him, btw, as she has proved once already. But I don't think Bran thinks this ... yet.

I wonder ... 9)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: RoseOnyxis on September 02, 2010, 12:57:01 am
I would love for Leah to find someone who makes her happy, and open up a romantic spot for someone else in Bran's life later down the line. I think it'd be a really interesting plot twist! I have a hard time imagining what Bran's reaction would be.. Maybe Bran-the-man might not be too upset by it because he doesn't get along well with her, but his wolf would see it as someone moving in on his territory and he might do some crazy things.

But I find it unlikely that Leah would find someone else, probably because the only thing I know about her personality so far is that she enjoys abusing power and says awful things to people so I'm not prepared for her to be soft-hearted enough to suddenly fall in love with someone. But, I'm sure things will change with her with Anna around.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Jax on September 02, 2010, 05:53:03 am

@Jax - I read it in a chat quote with Patty that "Leah knew exactly what she was getting into when she mated with Bran", but I don't think it was said in any of the books so far.

Thanks! I knew it was in print somewhere!
I do like the notion that just because you aren't looking for love doesn't mean you won't find it. It would an interesting to watch Bran try to avoid it. :)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on September 02, 2010, 08:30:04 am
Not looking for love and finding it is classic!  Mr. Mike did a really lovely post back in days of old telling how he & Patty found each other after he'd pretty much given up on looking for a wife.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on September 02, 2010, 12:55:02 pm
Sorry to go off topic, but awwww, that is so cute! :-LOVE
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on September 02, 2010, 01:06:57 pm
My bad this time, LGW.  On topic, I don't know if Patty has enough attention to spare to do too much with Bran & Leah, but it sure is fun to do "what if" and "wouldn't you love..." speculations.  I'm kind of wondering, in a "what if" way, how much harder or easier it would be for Bran to cope with the "coming out" and the attendant issues, plus the chaos that Mercy unwittingly brings, if something did happen to split him & Leah up.  What with someone better for him?  What if it's just him, with Anna's help?  What with nobody else, and Anna not available, being with Charles on business of the pack?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Has on September 03, 2010, 06:54:48 am
I think Bran is kind of doing that now - he is coasting and although he is mated to Leah, I don't think its a full one because their human parts aren't in sync like their wolves are. With Anna's arrival - I think that has helped but it wont fill that gap that having a mate will have which  centres the wolf and in some ways Bran is a coward for not loving again because it makes him vulnerable and that is the key I think of why he wont have a full mating but if he ever does it will definitely provide lots of drama!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on September 03, 2010, 11:22:51 am
It did say in one of the A&O books(can't remember right now) that they were linked as closely as any wolves, but that they weren't very close human-wise.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on September 03, 2010, 12:00:55 pm
It did say in one of the A&O books(can't remember right now) that they were linked as closely as any wolves, but that they weren't very close human-wise.

Well, with all due respect to our lovely Patty B, I've never been able to reconcile this factoid. If their wolves are so close, bonded like any other bonded pair, why is it that just about the only thing Bran and Leah get from their bond is the ability to know where each other are? I can't remember where that was said...probably in the same A&O as your quote, little gray. But I do remember that it was Charles that said it. I'm pretty sure he said both things. And I'm gonna take him at his word. The implication being that other bonded pairs get more out of their bond than Bran and Leah do.

I think I agree with Has that B&L's bond isn't a full one, and it's a full bond--acceptance by wolves AND humans--that makes all the magic of the gifts they each bring to the bond work. It makes me wonder how much more powerful they both could be if they had a complete bond.

Uh oh ... I feel more questions forming in my head ... must ... stop ... now ....






Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Has on September 03, 2010, 02:24:08 pm
Exactly!!!! Knowing where they are is like a pack bond right? Not a mate bond - for me this implies their matebond is not fully formed even though their wolves are mated. Makes you wonder although its different with other couples but there should be something more - I know Bran is holding back but Leah could be too?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: RoseOnyxis on September 03, 2010, 02:43:47 pm
It definitely makes sense that their mating might not be as strong as others 'cause their human parts don't love each other, but I don't think that bothers Bran as he gets what he needs from it - the stability to control his wolf from going crazy.

I've also thought Bran was a coward for not wanting to find love again, but then again, if he were to lose that person, he'd go berserk like last time so I can see why he's afraid, he just wants to keep the wolves safe - with the wolves out to the public, he can't afford to lose his cool like that. But! It's not like so many other wolves don't have mates and are scared that they might die - if Adam can have Mercy as a mate and she's still alive after all their crap, I'm sure Bran and his pack could keep a new mate alive too lol
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on September 03, 2010, 05:03:28 pm
It's not just the wolves he wants to keep safe; remember the woods that bore no human for a hundred years, or some such?  And all "heroes" who entered those blighted woods . . . died. 

I'm also of the opinion (and that's all it is) that the depth of the bond doesn't always mean great exchange of mate-bond gifts.  Just like being partnered with someone who dances well and wants to teach me to dance well won't make it happen, even if I sincerely want it.  If I've got two left feet, I've got two left feet.  End of story.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on September 05, 2010, 07:21:16 pm
lol ,that and in one of the A&O books Charles said that he didn't know how storg their bond would be and that all bonds worked differently
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: yayasims on October 21, 2010, 06:46:26 am
On that note, I want to talk about Leah.


Do you think the Leah cares for Bran? When Bran came home and Leah was sleeping in his bed, it just made me wonder because if it were me, I would not be sleeping in my mate's bed when he's not around if I didn't care somehow and want a connection with him while he is away. Could she have even been worried about him?

Sorry...when I posted this the quote thing didn't work... :)

Holy snap I just saw that there were 13 pages to this discussion, I ended up starting the series way too early and got totally lost in all the characters.  The problem was I hadn't even started reading the first book of the Mercy Thompson series.  Which explains my sudden confusion on where this event of Anna getting attacked happened.  I read all four books of Mercy wondering when Anna's attack would come in.  At least to shed more light on it, but my blond moment took a dive and discovered it's all in the omega book. e_e lol

Anyways, I had the biggest crush on Bran, (because I kept imagining him as Russell Crowe) so when Leah popped up claiming she was his mate and the relationship they had, I was thrilled she was just used and abandoned.  That meant Bran all to myself! lol.  But after reading the opening of the discussion I ended up re-thinking Leah's feelings and anguish.  I had a question I looked at the blue print of Bran's home in Aspen Creek on this site and it said that both Bran and Leah had separate rooms. 

And to see this quote above where she sleeps in his bed confused the hell out of me.  But I have no say cause well I stopped reading the book to finish my search in Mercy Thompson.  Now i'll have to re-read the Omega book and hope it makes more sense. lol.  But can someone explain to me, that though she was waiting for him in the bed, what feelings provoked her to go there and why? 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on October 21, 2010, 07:00:31 am
But can someone explain to me, that though she was waiting for him in the bed, what feelings provoked her to go there and why?


Simply put (and IMHO), Leah cares ... on some level ...  ;)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on October 21, 2010, 10:52:25 am
She does care, she just feals that she is seen as a replacement instead of a person by Bran(as let slip in Cry Wolf)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Chalger on October 24, 2010, 10:28:10 am
I think Bran knows he had his HEA with the Blue Jay Woman and being as old as he is, he feels that lightning won't strike twice. He's settled with Leah, maybe even a little tiny bit content to be with her as he doesn't have to try.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on October 24, 2010, 03:12:52 pm
maybe Patty will work something out that makes them both happy...
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: yayasims on October 25, 2010, 06:50:00 am
I think Bran knows he had his HEA with the Blue Jay Woman and being as old as he is, he feels that lightning won't strike twice. He's settled with Leah, maybe even a little tiny bit content to be with her as he doesn't have to try.

Please bear with me but can someone explain this quote?  Like who in the world is Hea and the Blue Jay Woman?  Is this a refrence to Charles and Samuel's mothers?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Chalger on October 25, 2010, 06:58:51 am
I think Bran knows he had his HEA with the Blue Jay Woman and being as old as he is, he feels that lightning won't strike twice. He's settled with Leah, maybe even a little tiny bit content to be with her as he doesn't have to try.

Please bear with me but can someone explain this quote?  Like who in the world is Hea and the Blue Jay Woman?  Is this a refrence to Charles and Samuel's mothers?

HEA - Happily Ever After
Blue Jay Woman - Charles Mother
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on October 25, 2010, 07:18:59 am
Right.  I don't recall that we ever saw the name of Samuel's mother.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on October 25, 2010, 08:15:11 am
was wondering did he actually go berserk when blue jay woman died?...i know he almost died but did he go berserk or almost went berserk ? because so few of the werewolves know he was the berserker or even the legend, and that was because it happened way before any of they were born
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Chalger on October 25, 2010, 12:10:37 pm
Right.  I don't recall that we ever saw the name of Samuel's mother.

Yeah, no name was given, only that Samuel was born when Bran was still human.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on October 25, 2010, 03:00:59 pm
was wondering did he actually go berserk when blue jay woman died?...i know he almost died but did he go berserk or almost went berserk ? because so few of the werewolves know he was the berserker or even the legend, and that was because it happened way before any of they were born

If I understood it correctly, it was that he almost went berserk, and just barely avoided it, which scared the heck out of him.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on October 25, 2010, 04:16:32 pm
which caused him to look for a new mate
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on October 25, 2010, 04:48:40 pm
which caused him to look for a new mate


...eventually, 'cuz the way I understand what I've read (and reading between the lines), Charles was not raised by Bran & Leah--only Bran, Sam, Bluejay's people and the pack. I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere that Samuel and Charles were vehemently opposed to Bran taking Leah as a mate--the implication being that Charles was old enough to express an opinion about it. I guess I've envisioned that Charles had to have been a teenager (at least), and maybe even a young adult.

Personally, I like to think that the thing that kept Bran's berserker in check--kept him alive, if you will--was the existence of Charles. Maybe Bran wanted to honor Bluejay's sacrifice by living in order to raise the son she died for. Maybe because he had a child that needed to be cared for, Bran was able to transform the pain of his lost love by channeling it into the strength he needed to go on without her because he had Charles as his lodestone--making his grief bearable temporarily. Remember, Charles looks like his mother. Seeing Charles every day would be like connecting with Bluejay, you know, like she's still with him.

Anyway, once Charles was old enough that he didn't need Bran, Bran's wolf let him know that it was time to take a mate (or something might happen).

Of course, I'm just speculating....


bj
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on October 25, 2010, 04:53:21 pm
That mostly sounds the way I've thought of it.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Zealith on October 25, 2010, 05:54:16 pm
Also, I believe it was mentioned that it took awhile for Bran to find someone who he was sure he wouldn't fall in love with before finding Leah. Giving time for Charles to grow up. Though I do agree with the idea that Bran didn't go looking for a mate right after Blue Jay Woman died.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on October 27, 2010, 04:25:31 pm
I like that POV lostbird. It makes sence bOuNcY
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Reptyle on October 27, 2010, 09:20:47 pm
Sorry I haven't read all the replies...But if someone has already said the following, then allow my words to add weight to your stance:

Leah is a disposable character IMHO...She's someone who won't be long with us...Patty likes Bran too much not to give him his happily ever after again...Leah will get 86ed sooner or later, Bran will have himself a quest for revenge, and while doing so, or after doing so, will find his Princess Buttercup.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on October 27, 2010, 09:33:31 pm
"as you wish"
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: HavParker on October 27, 2010, 09:36:03 pm
That's a bit too bubble gum and candy for me...

And I don't see Bran reacting so violently to the death of Leah. As far as I'm concerned, that's the reason he's mated to her. To prevent that.

Neither do I believe that she's a minor enough character that she could be killed off easily. I mean, she's major enough that's she's warranted discussion in this forum. That's a feat not accomplished by many, truly minor characters. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on October 28, 2010, 03:13:07 am
Leah is a disposable character IMHO...She's someone who won't be long with us...Patty likes Bran too much not to give him his happily ever after again...Leah will get 86ed sooner or later, Bran will have himself a quest for revenge, and while doing so, or after doing so, will find his Princess Buttercup.


I don't agree....
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Chalger on October 28, 2010, 05:33:57 am

Leah is a disposable character

In hunting Ground where Leah confesses how she feels to Anna, gives Patty some room to play with Leah and I can see Anna with all her Omega/ soothing abilities trying to reach out to Leah. I think she'll have some part to play in future books, maybe not a major part but definitely not a minor part.

Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on October 28, 2010, 09:10:07 am
That's a bit too bubble gum and candy for me...

And I don't see Bran reacting so violently to the death of Leah. As far as I'm concerned, that's the reason he's mated to her. To prevent that.

Neither do I believe that she's a minor enough character that she could be killed off easily. I mean, she's major enough that's she's warranted discussion in this forum. That's a feat not accomplished by many, truly minor characters. 

Actually, you've spurred me to think, and it's not that 'bubble gum and candy' really.

Think about how he'll thump his own sons to make sure they respect her, even if she's being a manipulative ass.  So he might go on a revenge quest simply as what's due her, or his position through her, rather than being wildly bereaved.  And he would retain enough control to go on a quest, rather than rampaging around in a berserk fit, because while he'd be saddened, it wouldn't be the extravagance of grief that Blue Jay Woman's caused. 

As to Leah not being a minor character, that's a matter of opinion, in some ways.  I will say that I could see a book concentrating rather more on her, right up until she did die, and then going on to Bran's quest to find and punish the murderer.

Then, it's potentially possible that he would find someone with whom he could strike a bargain that would be a bit better than what he has now with Leah, without leaving him in danger of the "BJW effect."

There's my two cents worth.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on October 28, 2010, 09:30:35 am
Leah is a disposable character IMHO...She's someone who won't be long with us...Patty likes Bran too much not to give him his happily ever after again...Leah will get 86ed sooner or later, Bran will have himself a quest for revenge, and while doing so, or after doing so, will find his Princess Buttercup.
I don't agree....

Sorry ... I was running out the door, late to work this morning, hence my very cryptic reply.

I guess it depends on what you mean by a "disposable" character. Do you mean someone that Patty can kill off with--seemingly--no consequences? If so, I definitely don't agree. There are serious ramifications to Leah being killed.

[Oops! just read Patti L's last msg--what she said!]

I think of the wolf who died by Mercy's teeth in MC as a disposable character. Alan Frasier, who was killed pretty quickly in MC, I think of him as a minor character because his existence and death drove the beginning of two stories (MC and A&O) and if not for him, Charles and Anna would not be.

So I would call Leah a very important minor character. Her influence is felt throughout the extended Cornick family. She contributes emotional tension to the backstory. She provides an implication of future danger for the wellbeing of a major character and the continuing story line.

bj






Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Varg on October 28, 2010, 09:52:36 am
What they said :)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on October 28, 2010, 05:00:33 pm
She also makes us wonder what will ahppen to her in the next books
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Reptyle on October 28, 2010, 06:35:24 pm
Leah is someone Patty can kill and not have the fans scream a collective "Noooooo!"

One of these characters has to die, you tell me who y'all would miss the least:

Medea (thought I'd throw her in for kicks)
Zee
Leah
Warren


I believe Patti is correct...Bran would avenge her, if for no other reason than he'd see it as his duty...Remember he comes from the day's that chivalry was a lifestyle and then some. He'd probably also feel some angst over the fact that he never loved her the way he loved Blue Jay Woman, which would add to the emotional drama of the whole story.
I'm thinking Charles and Sam would have to tag along to make sure Bran doesn't let his emotions and guilt get him killed....Of course this is all speculation on my part, but heck, that's the fun part!!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: HavParker on October 28, 2010, 09:26:54 pm
Something specific to look forward to. I get that.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Chalger on October 29, 2010, 11:18:44 am


In CW it mentions that he killed everything within a days walk of his den for years and being the Marrok, who needs powerful, calculating and some times brutal with the law,  I can't believe he likes what he is.

I think Bran views himself as someone who isn't meant to have love, after his shot with the BJW, that is why he mated to leah.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on October 29, 2010, 11:48:52 am


Leah is someone Patty can kill and not have the fans scream a collective "Noooooo!"


Absolutely! But that doesn't mean Leah is disposable. Just non-sympathetic. Everyone loves to hate her!


Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on October 29, 2010, 11:58:40 am
One of these characters has to die, you tell me who y'all would miss the least:

Medea (thought I'd throw her in for kicks)
Zee
Leah
Warren

Are you a Harry Potter fan??? Buffy the Vampire Slayer, perhaps??? Sometimes, a beloved character has to succumb. Writers do this to their fans all the time. Sacrifice for the sake of continuing the story. We don't have to like it, but sometimes, darn it, it's just necessary. I don't want Medea or Zee or Warren to die. I kinda' don't want Leah to die, either, because I like the tear in the fabric she brings to the tablecloth. If I had to choose though, hands down, I'm gonna choose Leah.

But ... that doesn't mean that the story will unfold with Leah's death as a foregone conclusion. Patty has made it clear that she follows her muse, primarily, not the other way around. Her characters talk to her. So I guess we'll just have to wait and hear what they say in the next few books....


bj


Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on October 29, 2010, 04:00:59 pm
I believe Patti is correct...Bran would avenge her, if for no other reason than he'd see it as his duty...Remember he comes from the day's that chivalry was a lifestyle and then some.

Actually, Bran predates chivalry by a few centuries, at the very least.   :)

He'd probably also feel some angst over the fact that he never loved her the way he loved Blue Jay Woman, which would add to the emotional drama of the whole story.

This part I completely agree with, though.  And you're right: it would be fun.  :D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on October 29, 2010, 04:34:07 pm
I wasn't thinking 'chivalry' myself, I was thinking the "My mate is an extension of myself and my authority.  If you disrespect her, you disrespect me.  This is a challenge to my authority.  I kill u."
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on October 29, 2010, 05:04:03 pm
That works, too.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on October 29, 2010, 05:20:01 pm
Uh huh!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: HavParker on October 29, 2010, 09:42:56 pm
I'm a firm believer that writers shouldn't fight to keep well loved characters alive - or kill the hated ones, for that - because I think story takes precedent.
That's why saying which character I'd miss the least if one had to die is just a little weird for me. I don't want to anticipate the death of any character. If I see it coming, then... Its ruined.

As for Leah, I don't think she's going anywhere. There's too much unexplored territory with her character.

But, hey, that could just be me not anticipating her death. ;)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Chalger on October 30, 2010, 04:18:49 am

As for Leah, I don't think she's going anywhere. There's too much unexplored territory with her character.


I agree.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Midangel on November 02, 2010, 10:22:59 am
Leah is a character that definitely inspires like or dislike. I'm firmly in the dislike :D.

I just don't feel as if I can respect her as Bran's mate for life (HEA) after all she has done. As I said before, taking it out on others, abusing her power, and trying to kill Mercy, I pretty much think that is her character down to a tee. If there was any hint of goodness within her, it would have shown by now. I don't buy that she's secretly hurting , hence why she acts like she does because of the distance kept between her and Bran. Bran chose her for a reason because he knew he could never love her.

I have a feeling that Leah will definitely cause trouble in the future, and hopefully she dies and falls off a cliff or something along those lines :P so Bran manages to have love again without the berserker showing up.

Die Leah, dieeeeee.

 

 

Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on November 02, 2010, 10:56:45 am
 LOL  you sound like Damnd of Hell with Marsilia.

Actually, my suspicion is that if she doesn't resist entirely, and Anna and maybe some solid Buddhists or other gentle theists (Quakers or Amish, for instance) could get hold of her and help her cleanse some of her pains, point out to her that she's causing some of her own pain (a lot of it.  I'm reminded of a book where a bitting harness was used to teach the horse to not yank on the reins), she might, with time and many a relapse, improve.  She'll never be a love the likes of Blue Jay Woman, but they could be a lot happier than they are now, and Leah could be much less of a destructive/divisive force in every part of Bran's life.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: dee on November 02, 2010, 11:49:03 am

As for Leah, I don't think she's going anywhere. There's too much unexplored territory with her character.


or maybe her character is what it is, and there's nothing more to her....some people are plane mean, they think they are above everyone and tent to have a condescending behavior. i mean so a few tears came and she lashed at blue jay woman that doesn't mean that the reason she is the way she is is because of a pain. if she started acting mean after her and bran were together it will explain it but she was like that even before they were together. it might have contributed to it
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Rothshaan on March 17, 2011, 04:05:16 am
I have to agree that I don't buy Leah 'woe unto me, I'm really a good girl and my life is so hard' story.

Leah is jealous of any female that she seems to meet. Mated, unmated, wolf or not, it doesn't seem to matter. That doesn't seem like she is taking females as a threat to her 'used and abused' aspect (if there really is one), to me that seems she just takes other females as a threat to her status and power.
I also think that Leah especially doesn't likes females who have something more unique going for them than she has for herself. That makes them more powerful, in a way.

Yes, Bran might have chosen her to appease his wolf side, but on some level Leah probably would have had some insight towards that. Especially after the death of Blue Jay Woman, I can't see him stringing some unwilling participant along. It seems more like a mutual agreement between them. He knows it would cause trouble if his mate required his love, but he couldn't return it.
Charles and Sam have both said that as wolves, they are a wonderful pair, but as humans they are a disaster. Which is the real problem, they are not just human so a lot of human applications may not fit them. They are also wolves.

I think Leah needs a female that will stand up to her, not challenge her and put Bran in an awful position, but show Leah that for all her 'power' and territorial actions, she can still be taken down a notch.
She really seems to get off on her power and the fact that Bran does give her so much slack, which also makes me think she isn't bitter because he is cold to her.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 17, 2011, 07:30:28 am
 Well, we haven’t seen all THAT much of her, so it’s pretty hard to say.  I’m not so sure it’s just women/females either she resents, though probably more so than men/males.  She seems to be bitter about anyone that Bran loves, or maybe even just cares about?  I wonder if she also resents his dedication to keeping both the Marrok pack safe as well as ALL the wolves in NA as it’s been mentioned that he is driven to do?  As has been said, a dominant is driven to protect, and there’s no one more dominant than Bran after all.

She appears to resent both of his sons, and Mercy… and anyone else Bran may care about but it seems to me she must see Mercy as more weak and so a better target for her spite and anger too.  She didn't want him to go to Doc Wallace's funeral and probably dislikes any move he makes that reflects his care for the pack or any individual in it.

Bran seems to regret to some degree his relationship with her, but obviously felt it necessary for reasons we (somewhat) normal people could never understand.  He feels he can’t afford to love, and so to possibly lose that love, and give the ‘beast’ within him a crack which might allow it to escape again.

To my mind, since he searched for a mate who would be “so selfish and stupid he was certain he would never really love her.”  It’s what he’s prepared to just live with for his own reasons.  He doesn’t seem to want to feel any tenderness towards her, and IMO his impressive self discipline makes it possible to see to it there’s no more than a sort of indifference, possibly balance with some possessive instinct and maybe some rough affection, but little more than that from what I got from what's been written so far.  What a human may feel for a casual lover, though the wolf probably has a bit stronger possessive streak… that bit’s just conjecture on my part.

I wonder… if something were to happen to Leah, if she were to get killed, would he feel any more remorse for that loss than he’d feel for the loss of any other average pack member.  I really think it would be barely more than that, by his own choice.

//EditToAdd//  forgot this last bit, IMO she’s selfish, plain and simple.  That is a behavior that in my experience is common in the stupid people out there, so he and his wolf seem to have gotten what they were looking for.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on March 17, 2011, 07:59:50 am

!!! River Marked spoiler alert !!! <-- MODS: please feel free to move if you think it's in the wrong place

I find it interesting that Leah didn't accompany Bran to Mercy's wedding. Another important event that she declined to attend, or maybe she just wasn't invited or was banned from attending???Mercy noticed Charles and Anna there. It makes sense that Ari probably wasn't there given all the wolves in attendance. But the mate of the Marrok not at the wedding of his daughter?


In CW, Leah tells Anna that she didn't go to the funeral because she wasn't going to support Bran's hypocrisy (I'm paraphrasing, of course). So Leah chose not to be there. Pretty nasty dis, if you ask me.


So what we know of Leah so far: she's never around during the big events in Bran's life.. She's not even cooperating for the good of the whole anymore (if she ever did), so I just don't understand how this relationship can continue. It seems to me that something's got to give!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Rothshaan on March 17, 2011, 08:16:45 am
She does seem to resent most weres... probably humans for that matter, but it does seem like she is more willing to take it out on the female members than males. Do you think part of her resentment towards the sons and Mercy could be the fact that it would be very difficult to near impossible for her to have her own children? Adopted or otherwise? (I can't imagine an adoption agency would be willing to give up a child to a were.)

Bran may regret it to a degree, but does his human half and wolf half regret it, or just the human? Not much has been said about the relationship between the human and wolf half, or the influence one has over the other. IK delved into it a little bit more, but I'm sure it's meant to be kept vague for at least a little while longer. Maybe throughout both series.

Another note about Bran, he is obviously afraid of the 'beast' that still resides within him. He has done his best to alienate his mate, but he cannot do the same with Mercy or his own sons. I think he might lose himself if he were to lose any of them. It would be impossible, even for Bran, to completely close himself off to such strong emotions and the loss of one of those three. Makes you wonder if he will eventually be forced to confront his beast and try to reach an understanding with the darker side of his nature, or face his own destruction or that of his pack.

His human half might not mourn Leah too much, but I think his wolf half would still be hit hard. Not like Blue Jay Woman hard, but more than the death of an average pack member. Possibly more out of regret and guilt.

I'm not sure I'd ever be able to find a likable within Leah, unless she were to truly have some sort of life endangering epiphany and reform. Highly doubtful though.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Rothshaan on March 17, 2011, 08:23:57 am

!!! River Marked spoiler alert !!! <-- MODS: please feel free to move if you think it's in the wrong place

I find it interesting that Leah didn't accompany Bran to Mercy's wedding. Another important event that she declined to attend, or maybe she just wasn't invited or was banned from attending???Mercy noticed Charles and Anna there. It makes sense that Ari probably wasn't there given all the wolves in attendance. But the mate of the Marrok not at the wedding of his daughter?


In CW, Leah tells Anna that she didn't go to the funeral because she wasn't going to support Bran's hypocrisy (I'm paraphrasing, of course). So Leah chose not to be there. Pretty nasty dis, if you ask me.


So what we know of Leah so far: she's never around during the big events in Bran's life.. She's not even cooperating for the good of the whole anymore (if she ever did), so I just don't understand how this relationship can continue. It seems to me that something's got to give!

Well, it would be interesting if Leah did show up! Can you imagine if she tried to get an attitude with Mercy, what Margi might have done about it? even though Mercy and her mother might not be the best of pals, I can't imagine Margi would let Leah mouth off to her daughter.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 17, 2011, 09:32:39 am
Quote
IMO she’s selfish, plain and simple.  That is a behavior that in my experience is common in the stupid people out there, so he and his wolf seem to have gotten what they were looking for.

This is the telling part as far as I'm concerned; she's stupid and selfish.  This condenses to "evil" with enough time.  There's a definition of "evil" in Mercedes Lackey's "Arrows Fall" where, to paraphrase, the Herald asked to explain it says "the evil person can not see something beautiful or fine without wanting to own it, and if they can't own it, they will spoil it so no-one else can have it."
That's Leah to at T.  She wants all attention on her.  Not just Bran's, although he's her main focus, but everyone else has to consider her before anyone or anything else.  She doesn't see that anyone could have any other concerns.  She's too stupid to see that other people can feel the same about themselves.  And too self-centered.

As for Margi... During past time, she just didn't have the physical or mystical oomph to stand up to Leah, and she knew it.  She might have the upper hand at Mercy's wedding if they were both there, but I don't see that happening; first, Bran probably recognizes the potential for disaster & would forbid Leah partaking of such behavior.  Second, for all the steamroller behavior Margi is exhibiting toward the wedding, I don't see her letting such a thing REALLY ruin the day, and third, Leah is too bitterly jealous to go to an event that is focused almost exclusively on another woman, especially one she already hates.  So she wouldn't go if she got an invitation.

Now that Mercy & Adam are mated, Mercy's power & status are very close to Leah's, which rubs off on Margi to some extent, making her a less safe target for Leah.  But more important, there's no reason for Leah & Margi to come into contact any more, no more than there has been the past decade and a half or two decades since Mercy left Aspen Creek.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Rothshaan on March 17, 2011, 11:03:17 am
If Leah were to show up at the wedding, or any event that would have her, Mercy and Margi in the same room, it would probably depend on the severity of the comment or actions involved.
I can certainly see Margi being cheeky, not directly confronting Leah but making a comment to Mercy or Adam that would show her disproval of the woman... to which Leah might be within earshot.

Makes me wonder if eventually Leah might get a case of the crazies too and need to be put down, in which Bran might end up getting another life lesson.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Elle on March 17, 2011, 12:54:48 pm
If Patty ever does a short story anthology I think I'd really enjoy a Leah/Bran one, just to get a better understanding of their dynamic. I kind of waffle between feeling really bad for her and not feeling bad for her at all.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: lostbird on March 17, 2011, 02:19:34 pm
Elle, I second your emotion! I don't like Leah and I want to hate her all the time and be done with it--but life (as we all know) is seldom that black and white. I'd feel better if she was more than just the caricature that she is now, or if there was at least more background than Charles's explanation of how Leah came to be the mate of the Marrok.


Not a criticism, just an observation....
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on March 18, 2011, 05:47:29 pm
Maybe if we find out about her past maybe we can find out more about why she does what she does
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Spryte on March 18, 2011, 07:17:42 pm
Indeed Elle! I really hate to come to a decision about Leah before knowing a bit more about her motivation. Hard to like the lady at this point, but I feel kinda bad for her too.
So here's hoping for a Bran/Leah short story!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 18, 2011, 07:25:49 pm
Spryte!  OMG!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Spryte on March 18, 2011, 09:11:24 pm
Hey Patti! Oh, how sweet it is to once again grace these virtual halls.
May the games begin.  >D

Seriously though, Bran/Leah short story = I wants one.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Has on March 19, 2011, 01:22:37 pm
Hi Spryte!!! :D Good to see you back!

I don't know about Leah being misunderstood because although I do feel sorry for her being stuck in a loveless marriage - she also revels in the power she gains from being Bran's mate and for me that brings out the warning signs because craving power like that is not healthy. Her antagonism against Bran's sons and Mercy is another sign because it is not their fault that Bran wont let himself open to her. I don't think their relationship is healthy even if their wolves are in sync and I do think it will end unhappily.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Elle on March 19, 2011, 06:40:17 pm
What I get from Leah reveling in the power that she gets from being Bran's mate is that's all she gets from being Bran's mate. She doesn't have love or it seems respect from many people but she has power, that she abuses that power now is unfortunate and that may have later repercussions but I understand her desire to gather it.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Has on March 19, 2011, 07:19:36 pm
I think that is a part of that and at this moment she is content with it because I suspect that is the only thing that is consoling her right now. But I do think the main reason why she accepted Bran was the power and prestige of being his mate, I know Bran is using her to contain the Berserker but I do think he may have laid it out to her that it wouldn't be a full marriage - She may have thought she could change that (with that in mind I do feel for her) but then again if she did she should have thought of the full consequences of living in a marriage/mating like this.

I had an interesting thought - with the way Adam's pack views mated females and how they view their rankings to dominance - it would be very interesting if this spreads to other packs. If this is the case it might affect Leah and that WOULD so put the cat amongst the pidgeons because this is the very thing that she has relied upon and has value with her mating with Bran.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 19, 2011, 07:31:30 pm
It would be interesting, and there would be some odd effects.  But just because you (metaphorically, being 'some werewolf') could beat Leah, would it be a good idea, for yourself or for the pack?  Bran would still be her mate, and he doesn't allow his sons to get away with 'disrespect', even when she's pushing their buttons to cause it.  Chances are that after wiping the mat with Leah, you'd find yourself being thrashed by Bran, for disrespect.  And Leah would only be angrier, and more bitter.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Has on March 19, 2011, 07:38:44 pm
But it would depend on why someone would beat her though? Its not like she hasn't attacked people far weaker than she is because of disliking them. She may confront and attack the wrong person and Bran may not be able to defend her because morally she pushed the wrong person?
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Midangel on March 20, 2011, 06:08:19 am
Die Leah dieeeeeee.

*runs away from thread*
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 20, 2011, 06:44:27 am
Nah, she's stupid and selfish and somewhat malicious but she's needed as a foil for other actors.  She's pretty much beyond our understanding because who among us would put up with it?

Perhaps day to day, she's more consistent, less abrasive.  We only get to see her on a few days out of the year when things are very stressful or odd, and what about back when they first got together, she was insulated and so was happy to have a nice house, probably plenty of money, had power within the local pack of course.  The pack could go wolf quite a bit because of where they are and she seems to revel in that...  Less outside distraction then, now Bran is away more, (or so it seems to me), he's more distracted by outside things and she's less the center of attention so maybe she's more restless and nasty...  not sure about most of this, it's just my thinking on it. 

Bran doesn't want to love her, and she's totally not-lovable, so it's a match made in ... purgatory?

Besides, I've seen other marriages where I've wondered how in the world one of them wound up with that other one.  It's not up to anyone but them though!  It's not up to us to 'fix' things either in those RL situations or here... no werewolf marriage councilors either!  Yikes!  What a thought, sorting through the human AND the wolf issues!  AHHHHH!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Spryte on March 20, 2011, 08:05:49 am
...no werewolf marriage councilors either!  Yikes!  What a thought, sorting through the human AND the wolf issues!  AHHHHH!

 LOL
Sounds like a good way to get eaten to me...
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on March 20, 2011, 08:18:43 am
Yeah, dealing with tempermental wolves and living is silm to none(shudders,I'd quit the job) but back to the topic, I really think we should give Leah a chance we havn't seen much of her and I'd be unhappy in her position too
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kate on March 21, 2011, 06:34:11 pm
Die Leah dieeeeeee.

*runs away from thread*
ROTFL. I wish there was a "Like" button on Hurog. LOL
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 21, 2011, 06:38:19 pm
Next best alternative is a poll, with some options.
"Die, Leah die!"
"Leah explained, we now have more sympathy."
"Leah redeemed."
"I don't know about the rest of you, but I like Leah!"
Like that.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Spryte on March 21, 2011, 06:45:39 pm
 bOuNcY Oooh... That is fun!
Let's do one!
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Lady_Inari on March 26, 2011, 11:28:03 am
Thanks for the insight into Bran, as well as his and Leah's relationship, Patty!






*shrugs*   Life to me is always a series of on going development, learning and growing.  Leah isn't likeable now, but she has an expansive, copious amount of room for growth and learning - and learning doesn't stop till one dies -  who know, perhaps she does become a better person but then becomes faced with other challenges to learn from.  *lol*   She does make me curious and want to know more about her life though, what makes her tick. *hehe*   On my personal perspective, it'd be interesting to see her mend fences with Mercy - then again, I'd love to see Mercy and Anna have some   'girl' time too *lol*   I think they'd really be thick as thieves.    Can you just see it?  They go out minding their own business and wind up getting into an adventure?   *snort*  Gotta wonder what Charles and Adam's reactions would be.  :D   

Hm....on the other hand, I kind of see Bran's choice as 'sticking his head in the sand'   Love isn't always easy, but even with pain involved is priceless -  I'd love to see him learn to fall in true love again and who knows, perhaps someday he will -  wonder if he loved his first wife from when he was human or if that was an arrangement?  And did his mother kill her or did something else happen to her?   Bran also makes me curious. :D    I still say I'd love to see his story someday.  ;)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on March 27, 2011, 07:34:54 am
Well, I'm guessing that after around 7 centuries, Bran has what he and his wolf wants and needs pretty well figured out.  People with romantic ideas for him but don't understand what he's got to deal with considering his years as the berserker in Wales as well as his arrangement with his wolf, aren't likely to change his mind.  (of course, I don't understand it either, but it's established pretty well in the books that he's keeping that relationship in the compartment it's in)

I think the real danger that Samuel would be lost in Silver Born, (and he was obviously well aware of Samuel's emotional instability even before that around the time Mercy left Aspen Creek and Sam headed for Texas)... that brought home even further the danger of losing those he loved, his telling Charles (in Hunting Ground?) that he didn't want to lose both his children, and now it seems clear, to me at least, that he loves Mercy like his own child too, from what he said to Adam at the wedding ceremony, and she keeps putting herself in harms way. 

No, it seems to me that it's unlikely that he'll want to change his situation with Leah anytime soon.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Ellyll on March 27, 2011, 07:43:07 am
I tend to agree, DandelionWine.  I think his age is critical.  He's a good bit more than 700 years old, and maybe more than a thousand.  That's going to make him a bit more alien to our understanding, I think. 

And I think we've barely touched the surface of what Bran is in his berserker state.  The choices he's making (with Leah) are most definitely cold ones, but they're based on his fear of what he can become (and remember, if Bran goes berserk, then so, eventually, will every werewolf in NA), and I don't think they'll change any time soon.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 27, 2011, 09:15:25 am
Third person on that opinion tab, here.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on March 28, 2011, 04:42:52 pm
I tend to agree, DandelionWine.  I think his age is critical.  He's a good bit more than 700 years old, and maybe more than a thousand.  That's going to make him a bit more alien to our understanding, I think. 

And I think we've barely touched the surface of what Bran is in his berserker state.  The choices he's making (with Leah) are most definitely cold ones, but they're based on his fear of what he can become (and remember, if Bran goes berserk, then so, eventually, will every werewolf in NA), and I don't think they'll change any time soon.


Charles told Anna in Cry Wolf that Asil is around 1300 years old, and it sounded like Bran was maybe older. Asil heard the tales about Bran during his first century as a werewolf, if I'm remembering right.  And I'm another person on the opinion tab.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Lady_Inari on March 28, 2011, 10:19:17 pm
Also have to take into account, he most likely came from a time where marriage and love were not synonomous (where the heck is spell check on here?) because the idea of marrying for love historically speaking is relatively a young idea as opposed to marriages made based on other things -was it station in life and wealth?  Love wasn't necessary but could develop as the couple got to know eachother.   I don't forget about the berserker, but I also think love could be a strength, because while nothing in life is certain, a strong love bond could also add dimension to his control and ability rather than detract.  Put another way...if he lost his children, wouldn't he be just as likely to go berserk?  It's not the same type of love, but it is still a type of deep loving bond (a parent for his children and family) and it isn't the love that makes him go berserk (at least in my opinion) but the deep seated grief.  If that is the case, then would that mean he'd try to distance himself from his children too?

P.S.  I love playing devil's advocate. :P
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on April 10, 2011, 05:10:15 pm
Bran already keeps himself distant from most people, pack and otherwise.  If he didn't have a close relationship with someone, he probably wouldn't have survived this long.  I think he knows that he needs his sons.  Besides, I don't think Samuel and Charles would let him distance himself, not if they could help it. 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on April 10, 2011, 05:40:40 pm
He loves them and they love him
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: kairos on April 16, 2011, 09:41:32 pm
I think you're right, Zealith.  And no-one has been encouraging/pushing her to grow out of it.

I wonder if somewhere inside her she wants to, but doesn't know how or have the confidence to ask for help?  If that's part of why she's so anti-Mercy, because Mercy doesn't need to cling, and was raised to believe she could do for herself, and doesn't have to have a mate, not being a were, and required to have a mate, or suffer through 'belonging' to the alpha?

What was Leah's life like before she was changed?  Was she force-changed too?  How long was she were before Bran's wolf chose her?  What did she suffer?  How long has it had to dig ruts the depth of Bryce Canyon?

Okay, I know that post was a long time ago. But it just seems like...maybe she also resents Mercy a lot because they could have been in the same situation?
Like if you think about it, Sam was about to do the same thing to Mercy, that Bran did to her? With the, "oh gosh, I want to marry you for some [insert selfish reason], except I don't really love you" and it's even worse for her.
I feel like if I were in that situation, I'd totally resent Mercy, if only because Bran cared enough to save/warn Mercy?
It seems a bit hypocritical of him.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 16, 2011, 09:48:48 pm
Maybe it was his experience with Leah that led him to prevent Mercy from going through the same thing?  Although, he knew Mercy since she was in diapers, I doubt he knew Leah from such a vulnerable age, from what's been said.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: kairos on April 22, 2011, 11:52:54 pm
Maybe it was his experience with Leah that led him to prevent Mercy from going through the same thing?  Although, he knew Mercy since she was in diapers, I doubt he knew Leah from such a vulnerable age, from what's been said.

At the same time, assuming you're over say 500..."vulnerable age" becomes somewhat relative :D, even if she was 22 (median age of marriage in 1890 apparently?), I feel like that would still be a loosing proposition? Especially if he's your alpha and uber-dominant and all.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 23, 2011, 10:18:30 am
I rather disagree, Kairos, for a few reasons.
First,
Quote
Okay, I know that post was a long time ago. But it just seems like...maybe she also resents Mercy a lot because they could have been in the same situation?
Like if you think about it, Sam was about to do the same thing to Mercy, that Bran did to her? With the, "oh gosh, I want to marry you for some [insert selfish reason], except I don't really love you" and it's even worse for her.
This is not the case.  It's been stated clearly that Bran told Leah that he did not and would not love her, and what she would get in return for mating him.  Samuel did not tell Mercy what she was/would have been getting into.  She purely thought Samuel loved her, and she loved him.  He did NOT tell her that love/no love, he wanted children who would live.  Full stop.
So it wasn't the same situation.  Leah was/had been an adult for anywhere from... what, if she was changed as young as Kara, 6 years to 60(although the latter is unlikely).  Bran most specifically did NOT tell her he loved her.

Second,
Maybe it was his experience with Leah that led him to prevent Mercy from going through the same thing?  Although, he knew Mercy since she was in diapers, I doubt he knew Leah from such a vulnerable age, from what's been said.

At the same time, assuming you're over say 500..."vulnerable age" becomes somewhat relative :D, even if she was 22 (median age of marriage in 1890 apparently?), I feel like that would still be a loosing proposition? Especially if he's your alpha and uber-dominant and all.
Pardon my language, but, BS.  Evidence suggests that a mature mind may develop as early as ... ten?  Or never in the whole lifetime of an individual, regardless how many centuries the person may live.  Mercy has a grown up mindset, Leah doesn't.  She's stuck in "I'm the center of the universe, and I should get what I want" mindset.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on April 23, 2011, 03:54:51 pm
X2 with Patti L!   At the end of Cry Wolf when Bran was thinking about things, he clearly thought back on how he had searched long and hard to find a woman selfish and stupid enough so he could never love her.  That's what he wanted, that's what he got. 

Now maybe he regrets it to some extent, maybe he doesn't.  I just think he has accepted things as they are and is not one to look back. 

Also, while he has chosen his own path with a clear sight, and is willing to stay on that same path... I think he interfered with Mercy and Samuel back in the day because he knew that she wasn't aware of the facts.  He respected that she was a pretty smart and independent kid/woman child, but my opinion is that while he protected her from some mistakes (Samuel) he's been around enough to know that Mercy needed to make some other mistakes for herself.

He also possibly considered that Mercy is neither selfish nor stupid... she may have learned to be happy with Samuel, but it was probably more likely that she'd resent him and their life if not given time to learn some things for herself first.  Also, because she is neither selfish nor stupid, she'd find her way well enough given the chance, which was what he gave her by sending her back to her Mother's.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on April 23, 2011, 05:25:21 pm
I don't think Leah is so stupid, she knows enough to figure out Bran doesn't love her the way he should
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 23, 2011, 05:30:55 pm
What figure out?  He told her from the word "go" that he wasn't going to love her.  She didn't NEED to figure it out.  ???
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on April 24, 2011, 07:44:20 am
But in CW, she said something along the lines of that she was just a replacement for his first mate
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 24, 2011, 12:44:26 pm
So?  He still told her.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on April 24, 2011, 02:20:49 pm
Yep, and besides, it's a fairly modern idea that marriage is supposed to be about love.  For centuries it was an arrangement that was hopefully a benefit to both parties.  Admittedly sometimes the woman came in second place, but not always.  We assume that it was always the case but that is not likely to be true.

She got safety, security, shelter, protection, sometimes status (though not always a necessity) and a family, which really is a desire for plenty of women, both now and then.  He got a homemaker, children to carry on his line, a home to come to at the end of the day, if the couple is poor, he got what could be considered a servant, though life was generally hard for people a couple of centuries ago no matter what.  He was out in the fields or out working his butt off too generally speaking.

Some literature and media makes it sound like it was always a brutal or one sided thing, but that isn't likely to be true... it just makes for good drama.

If they got together shortly after Blue Jay Woman died, a marriage of convenience would be totally normal.  I cannot imagine that it became an issue till fairly recently when "love" started to become popular in marriages.  That would be not till the fairly early 1900's in truth, contrary to the so-called "historical fiction" of today... the most important part of that title is FICTION.  Marriage was a convenience for both parties and love had little to do with it.  Assuming both parties were fairly well suited, they might well develop a fondness or affection for each other, and occasionally actual love.  I'd be willing to bet that with weres that idea actually started to become an issue much later than with mundanes truth be told, since they are much less prone to change with the times than 'humans'.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 24, 2011, 02:25:04 pm
[contrary]Or, since if they didn't die in dominance fights the men (and their mates) could live centuries, it's possible that weres were instrumental in bringing the idea of love into marriage?[/contrary]
Which doesn't mean that either Bran or Leah would have been raised to expect love in marriage.
But, over the past century, as love has become more important in marriage, at least in the "first world" rather than so called "third world" countries, Leah could have started feeling cheated that she doesn't have that.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on April 24, 2011, 03:21:47 pm
Hmmm, that's got some ring of truth to it too Patti L.  The mate bond brings a certain amount of... if not love then at least quite a bit of devotion and protectiveness to it.  That is not far from love unless it becomes too far into obsessive possessiveness.  With the human part of the bond in the equation, that might have a lot of influence.  ...well, I guess I/(you've) talked me back around to considering love as a possible part of the expectation.   

Still... I don't think that since it likely wasn't part of the human world's expectation back then, and from what's been said, it's not necessary for the mate bond between the wolf halves of the pair to be reflected in the human side, if she got the idea that Bran the human would fall in love with Leah the human, it's no one's fault but her own. 

He's not cruel about it no matter what modern thought says, he respects her, and demands respect for her from everyone else in the community and the pack, and it seems that he tries to treat her with what compassion he can manage.  I don't think it's unfair in the long run.  Her problems with it are just that IMO, hers.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: kairos on April 25, 2011, 07:49:16 pm
So?  He still told her.

Eep wait..sorry, when did he tell her? Did I miss a post in this thread or was it in a FAQ? *goes hunting*
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 25, 2011, 07:53:22 pm
I'm not sure if it's in FAQ or "canon", but I'm pretty sure it was stated in at least one of the books, quite specifically.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: kairos on April 25, 2011, 08:03:42 pm
I'm not sure if it's in FAQ or "canon", but I'm pretty sure it was stated in at least one of the books, quite specifically.

Hm..I've gone through the Ask Patty forum and I haven't seen it (unless Mike answered it...*goes back to digging*).
I don't remember it from any of the books...of course, that could just be because I feel like it'd be in Cry Wolf if it were in any of them, and I don't think it's in there for sure...and I'm blanking on the rest of the books.

I'm not sure how much of a difference it'll make on my perception of the issue. I mean, I'd still totally be right behind her if she decided to up and leave (not that that seems like it's in her personality), so...probably not much of a difference.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on April 25, 2011, 08:09:07 pm
Might be easier to find in the character ID card area rather than Ask Patty.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Kkat07 on April 26, 2011, 05:41:50 pm
It is in her ID card.  Useful things, those.  :)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on May 23, 2011, 12:07:48 pm
I also would really like to see Bran with a new love interest at some point in the future.  Between the Mercy Thompson books and the A & O books, Leah has been made out to be such a cold, jealous and spiteful woman that I find the idea of real romance and love between she and Bran as unlikely.  What can I say, I'm a romantic. ;D

I've been a long time lurker on these boards, and remember reading somewhere that Patty probably won't be doing a book with Bran as the main character-she likes him mysterious.  (I can't remember if it was a post or a linked to interview).  Since this is the speculation board for Fair Game though, I suppose it is possible that the serial killer could take out Leah.  Imagine the impact killing the mate of the Marrok would have...

That being said, I hope it doesn't happen.  I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, but I think Patty should leave Leah and Bran together.  I don't like Leah's personality, but she is a great character (if that makes sense).  The conflict she brings makes the books more realistic.  (now trying to get back on topic about speculation before the moderators catch me ;D ) I think it would be interesting to see what developments, if any, have occurred to the relationship between Leah and Anna since the scene in Cry Wolf.


I thought I'd bring this over here, since it's the sentence about "I don't like Leah's personality, but she is a great character (if that makes sense)." that I wanted to respond to.

I think this is a very good point.  It's like you pretty much had to have Moriarity with Holmes; there's a fascination in the villains, or even just ambiguously motivated but not nice characters, and that's Leah to a T.

In fact, by comparing her to Moriarity, I goosed myself into one of those "what would happen if...?" thoughts.  What if Leah became an honest to goodness villain, instead of simply an unhappy side character?  Like Isabelle, the mate of Leo the pack Alpha in A&O?   >D
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on May 23, 2011, 03:51:12 pm
Then Charles would have to kill her. ( I don't think he'd have that much of a problem.)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on May 23, 2011, 03:58:51 pm
I don't know if Bran would allow/slough that off on Charles.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on May 24, 2011, 10:05:21 am
I also would really like to see Bran with a new love interest at some point in the future.  Between the Mercy Thompson books and the A & O books, Leah has been made out to be such a cold, jealous and spiteful woman that I find the idea of real romance and love between she and Bran as unlikely.  What can I say, I'm a romantic. ;D

I've been a long time lurker on these boards, and remember reading somewhere that Patty probably won't be doing a book with Bran as the main character-she likes him mysterious.  (I can't remember if it was a post or a linked to interview).  Since this is the speculation board for Fair Game though, I suppose it is possible that the serial killer could take out Leah.  Imagine the impact killing the mate of the Marrok would have...

That being said, I hope it doesn't happen.  I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, but I think Patty should leave Leah and Bran together.  I don't like Leah's personality, but she is a great character (if that makes sense).  The conflict she brings makes the books more realistic.  (now trying to get back on topic about speculation before the moderators catch me ;D ) I think it would be interesting to see what developments, if any, have occurred to the relationship between Leah and Anna since the scene in Cry Wolf.


I thought I'd bring this over here, since it's the sentence about "I don't like Leah's personality, but she is a great character (if that makes sense)." that I wanted to respond to.

I think this is a very good point.  It's like you pretty much had to have Moriarity with Holmes; there's a fascination in the villains, or even just ambiguously motivated but not nice characters, and that's Leah to a T.

In fact, by comparing her to Moriarity, I goosed myself into one of those "what would happen if...?" thoughts.  What if Leah became an honest to goodness villain, instead of simply an unhappy side character?  Like Isabelle, the mate of Leo the pack Alpha in A&O?   >D

Ok, I'm quoting a quote that quotes another quote and I hate doing that but in this case, here goes.

I agree that this is a very applicable point, and that Leah is a necessary sharp to contrast with the sweet.  There are annoying people all over and we just have to deal with it!  I have a sweet relative who is happily married to an unpleasant woman.  We don't exactly understand it, but we all socialize and deal with it because that's just how things are sometimes.  She's not to the level of Leah, but then, she isn't a werewolf either... at least I'm pretty sure she isn't!

As far as her going as bad as Isabelle did in the Chicago pack, I think that was age-related, and I'm not sure how old Leah is.  Still, it seems to me that age being a relative thing, it can happen to one wolf at 100 and to another at 1000.  (ok, I exaggerated to make the point of it depending on the individual.)  Leah possibly could go bad but that's just too easy a solution IMO.  She's a good character for a reason. 

Oh, and no, Leo may have been plenty dominant, but he was weak where it came to Isabelle and  Bran wouldn't let anyone handle the situation but himself. (IMO of course)
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: Midangel on May 24, 2011, 12:00:29 pm
My personal opinion is that I think Leah might go over to the 'dark' side. From what I've read of her so far, I can't see any goodness in her character.

Whilst I can understand there are unpleasant characters in books, Leah went that step further and attempted to kill Mercy. Even if she is a werewolf, trying to kill a woman that Bran regards as a daughter pretty much has my warning bells ringing a dinging in alarm. Also, I had never seen any of the pack members in the Mercy world (except for the bad ones) try to kill an innocent person (Mercy in this case) for their own selfish reasons.

Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: magique on May 25, 2011, 08:18:11 am
I think this is a very good point.  It's like you pretty much had to have Moriarity with Holmes; there's a fascination in the villains, or even just ambiguously motivated but not nice characters, and that's Leah to a T.

In fact, by comparing her to Moriarity, I goosed myself into one of those "what would happen if...?" thoughts.  What if Leah became an honest to goodness villain, instead of simply an unhappy side character?  Like Isabelle, the mate of Leo the pack Alpha in A&O?   >D

Leah going mad/turning evil... hmmm... That could be quite interesting... 

I agree with DandelionWine and PattiL though that if that happened Bran would take care of it himself.  Especially since I imagine he'd want to take care of a situation like that before it went to far and there was a chance of his berserker breaking out.



edit:  I just looked at Leah's ID card and it negated my other comment, so I deleted it.
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on May 25, 2011, 09:42:52 am
I disagree that she tried to kill Mercy.  She THREATENED to do so, and would probably love to try, but Mercy isn't around her all that much anymore.  She is aggressive towards Mercy, and is definitely a nasty piece of work, but to a were, that threat isn't the same as actually attempting to kill her, though it probably feels darn close.  Maybe she'd go through with it, maybe she wouldn't... that's part of the tension of the whole thing. 

I personally suspect that if things went beyond the posturing, and got so far that there was an actual fight, she'd lose all control and try for it, but again, that's part of the tension in the story line.  As long as Mercy is smart enough, and quick enough to get out of her way, it shouldn't come to that.  If it ever does, I do think between Adam and his pack, and Bran's need to enforce discipline, there'd be a world of trouble.  But really, what with all the other monsters out there, Mercy has better things to worry about!  Mercy can outrun her and knows to avoid her most of the time.
 
Title: Re: Bran & Leah Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on May 25, 2011, 11:35:20 am
Sigh the foundation would crumble in the middle and brother would be against brother so to say
Title: Re: Fair Game - Alpha & Omega (#3) Speculation
Post by: Kyria on June 22, 2011, 07:32:12 pm
Also, she's used to being able to throw around Bran's Alpha-ness.
And Anna can't be forced to follow directions. 

Just a spoiled brat princess werewolf.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Omega on June 22, 2011, 07:39:03 pm
maybe shes jealous of that ? because Anna literally takes orders from no one?? That would make sense for Leahs personality she'd be jealous because of the fact Anna is an omega therefore shes kinda like the ultimate female. Perhaps Leah sees a power she cant have in Anna?
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on June 23, 2011, 04:16:55 am
I think it is because Anna doesn't take Leah's ordera. If you think about it Leah seems to like giving comands, and having them followed without question
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Omega on June 23, 2011, 05:05:17 am
thats true I can understand that :)
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on June 23, 2011, 06:31:16 am
Maybe there is a chance for Leah, now that Anna is there... She helped Asil
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on June 23, 2011, 08:11:02 am
But Asil wanted help, whether to die, or to actually get better.  Leah doesn't want to change, I don't think.  You know the mindset; "I'm perfect, it's the rest of the world that needs to change."
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Janilee on June 23, 2011, 09:56:10 am
Leah's problems would be there if she wasn't a werewolf. The calm Anna can give a werewolf wouldn't (in my opinion) help with the issues Leah has.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on June 23, 2011, 02:10:09 pm
perhapse not, only Leah (maybe not even her) knows
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: HavParker on June 24, 2011, 06:13:06 pm
Leah's problems would be there if she wasn't a werewolf.

You could argue that some of her problems arose when she became a werewolf, though, honestly I don't know much about her before she was changed to really argue this.

The closest thing I have is that she almost broke down in front of Anna when they first met, and she seemed to be frustrated with her current life...

How long has she been a werewolf exactly? Do we know? When in her wolf life did she mate with Bran?

Contrary-wise: was Leah in Bran's pack when they mated? Does that mean that something was a little wrong with her before? The wolves in Bran's pack are ones that need a little more support, am I right?

{Those are a lot of questions :o. Sorry...}
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on June 24, 2011, 06:22:21 pm
Not all the wolves in Bran's pack are nutso.  Finding out more about Leah's background somehow becomes more interesting now that you've mentioned the possibility of her having come from somewhere in his territory; "Aspen Creek" territory, rather than North America.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Kyria on June 24, 2011, 07:25:43 pm
I really can't see Bran choosing to mate with someone who was actively unstable.  He mated with Leah because her personality makes her unlikeable, and he couldn't afford to have a mate who he loved as much as Charles's mom (whose name escapes me for the moment.  Bluebird Woman?).  But if she was actually crazy or unstable I would think it would be too much risk for him, in case that insanity leaked through the mate bond.  So while being a wolf may make some of her issues worse, I would guess that it's probably just her personality to be a spoiled brat. 

That said, she has to know that Bran doesn't truly love her, so that would make things worse, too.

As for her reaction to Anna, think about all that Anna has that she doesn't:
A loving mate (And I seem to remember it being suggested somewhere that she particularly resents Charles, as Blue Jay Woman's son... so she'd resent Anna for making Charles happy).  The power to refuse orders from anyone, including Bran.  The respect, affection, and protection of most of the wolves she meets. 
AND, Anna doesn't have to take orders from Leah, either, so Leah's going to resent her even more because she can't push Anna around in retribution for the stuff that makes her jealous. 
Also, there's probably some internal conflict when it comes to Leah and Anna.  Leah personally doesn't like her, but her wolf's instincts say that Anna is To Be Protected and Loved; and A Safe Packmate. 
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Zealith on June 24, 2011, 10:34:09 pm
I would guess that Leah was part of Bran's pack, if he had one, before they mated. Mostly because he had to have known her well enough to know that he would never fall in love with her.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on June 25, 2011, 01:29:58 am
So many true points to all of you/questions. I never thought about Leah's wolf being protective of omega
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on June 25, 2011, 04:28:28 am
I have to agree with LGW, very good points all around! 

I think at the end of Cry Wolf Bran 'thinks' about how long it took him to 'find' the right mate that his wolf would approve as acceptable but was stupid and selfish enough so his human self wouldn't fall in love with her... totally paraphrased so jump in and correct me if you wish, no worries there.  That leaves me thinking she wasn't in his pack at the time, though considering the population of the time after Blue Jay Woman's death, I don't know where he would have found her.  Possibly as white settlers came west?  It wasn't clear how long after Charles' mother's death he found Leah.  Blue Jay Woman's father was still alive though, so he didn't have her in his life for very long at all before he lost her.

I agree with the wolf/human conflict within Leah over her protection instinct and the resentment of that need by the human side.  VERY likely an issue, and if she resolves it enough to become decent, I wonder if it will make her more likable to Bran?  In which case I wonder if Bran will find that an issue.  Hmmmmm.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on June 25, 2011, 06:43:08 am
hmmm... some people want Leah to get nicer/better, but it might effect bran and his con trol as well. Makes you think.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Omega on July 01, 2011, 05:21:21 pm
personally i dont think leah will get any nicer...her character is more narcassistic than anything...or historonic...one of the two :)
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on July 02, 2011, 12:27:07 am
could you dumb that down a little, please ???
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on July 02, 2011, 04:16:02 am
She's too egotistical, vain and selfish to want to change, and probably sees no reason why she should anyway.  If she can't get her way for some reason she loves to kick up a fuss of some sort (histrionics).  If it's because Bran puts his foot down, she probably sorts to sulking and small malicious things, (can a wolf be passive aggressive?)  if it's some pack member who is under other orders of Bran's etc, (like when Sage could refuse her because of Bran's orders) she throws a hissy fit and becomes a drama queen...  Her options with an Omega around will be limited though, she's not going to like it one bit and there's darn little she can do about it so I think she'll end up causing a lot of stress within the pack, and trying to manipulate other pack members to spite anyone she can to prove she's more important that some stray Omega that Charles found.  I think she'll bring trouble to her own doorstep over it all... though exactly what sort, I'm just not sure.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on July 02, 2011, 04:27:56 am
Thank you, you have good points, but Leah may still have some decency left, we don't really know
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: DandelionWine on July 02, 2011, 05:26:13 am
Having those traits doesn't make her bad or evil, just annoying.  It's her personality and that's just that.  Not everyone is motivated by being considerate of others, or by wanting to be nice or decent.  Such people function just fine in society (whatever their society is) for the most part.  It's just not what most people think of as a happy existence, but who's to say really?  High powered business people?  Probably not as narcissistic as Leah, but selfish?  IMO, almost assuredly, of course people like Donald Trump are pretty darned narcissistic!  Movie stars? Yeah, often quite sure that they are too important to follow rules or live by standards of polite behaviour.

A lot of people are self centered and have overblown images of their importance.  It takes all kinds in this world, I just feel that she really needs to handle her insecurities better.  Come to terms with her position as the Marrok's mate and deal with it.  She's got a darn powerful position and she should really be used to the facts of her life by now.   She could be arrogant and selfish without pulling dirty little tricks to undermine the cohesion of the pack.  Bran's handled a lot of it with pure strength, she could do a LOT more to help him which would cement her position better and make life more pleasant all around... but maybe that would make Bran like her too much and she doesn't have the inner strength and loyalty (IMO) that Charles and Samuel have to make her a safe person for him to care too much about.

That's what bugs me the most I guess... her insecurities in the position she's in could cause a lot of trouble in the pack.  She resents too much of what makes the Marrok pack so strong.  Charles, Anna, even Samuel who may currently be a lone wolf, still holds Bran's and by virtue of that the entire NA pack structure in high regard.  She needs to realize that all these people (wolves) are part of Bran's stability and support system and so part of HER support.   She's so busy being jealous of their place in Bran's life that she doesn't see that he, and so the pack as a whole as well as herself, need them and their support.  If it weren't Charles or Samuel, it'd be someone or something else she'd be jealous and insecure about.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on July 02, 2011, 05:31:09 am
She may be selfish, but something had to have made her that way
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: lostbird on July 02, 2011, 06:29:50 am
She may be selfish, but something had to have made her that way


"Selfish" people are usually raised that way. All children start out with the potential to be Mother Teresa, but they also have their own very unique set of personality traits that are either enhanced or made worse by their environment. Meaning:  how they are parented, what it's like to live in their homes, attend their schools, what kinds of friends they make, their relationships with other adult role-models. How all of those things affect them emotionally and psychologically is the key difference. This is the basic nature vs. nurture argument. It takes both to form an individual but everyone is different. This doesn't mean that a person can't change. Just that, in order to change one has to first recognize that it's something they do (being selfish, for instance) and then they have to WANT to be less so.


The story of the Marrok needs the tension that Leah brings on some level, so I don't see Leah's basic nature changing anytime soon. Maybe Patty will flesh her out more over time, but remember, this is really the Mercyverse, not the Marrokverse. Bran is a supportive character, not the main event. I seem to recall that the Marrok's wolf had decided he needed a mate around the time that Charles was +/- 50 years old (forgive me, but I can't recall what book that's in). This means that Leah is at least old enough to take to mate, so she's been raised by someone somewhere. When Bran finds Leah, both Samuel and Charles really object (the assumption being that they have the opportunity to meet her and realize almost immediately that she's not the kind of mate they would want for their father or to join their family)--but Bran goes ahead and takes Leah as his mate anyway because he needs someone. He's rejecting love because losing it takes him too close to rampant destruction and death. He wants to go on living and in order to do that, he needs something very basic to help him maintain control over his wolf and his berserker. Sex is about as basic a need as it gets. It's instinctual, which is a lot of what the berserker in him responds to. In fact, as we learned in CW, sex is usually all it takes to seal the mating bond. But Bran also needs someone who won't take him to the brink (someone he can't/won't love) when she's gone. Right now, Leah fits this bill.


 :-\
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on July 02, 2011, 06:33:52 am
Your thoughts and mine are parallel
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on July 02, 2011, 08:42:56 am
Good summations.
To point up what DW was saying, in the grumbles & gripes thread someone, I think Zealith, was talking about a gal in her circle of friends & acquaintances, who was on FB or the phone with her, and Z (or whoever) was going "yeah...uh-huh...sure" with the "I'm paying attention but ready to go on to something else" implication, and the other person accused her of drawing the subject out, but if Z had cut them off herself, she would have gotten reamed for that.  This person is like Leah.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on July 03, 2011, 12:41:20 am
blame everybody, sounds right
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: HavParker on July 09, 2011, 07:23:46 pm
Bit of a side note but, I thought Bran's wolf chose Leah.... or did he just force Bran to choose someone?
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Zealith on July 09, 2011, 10:14:03 pm
That's what Sam and Charles believ, however in CW Bran revieled that he had searched for some one like her.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: lostbird on July 10, 2011, 04:59:43 am
...but I think he prefaces that by saying something like his wolf had decided they'd been without a mate for long enough. Six of one, half a dozen of another. I think his wolf may have forced the issue, and Bran knew enough about survival that he couldn't ignore his own wolf. So he split the difference and searched for someone he couldn't love.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: little gray wolf on July 12, 2011, 03:58:41 am
He knew that he couldn't risk losing control, so his wolf and he agreed(my version)
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Midangel on February 15, 2012, 04:07:30 pm
Hey guys,

I came across this and thought I would share. It's a letter addressed to Bran, and he responds! He shares a little tidbit about Leah. Makes for interesting reading ;).

http://vampirebookclub.net/love-letter-to-bran-patricia-briggs-mercy-thompson-and-alpha-omega/ (http://vampirebookclub.net/love-letter-to-bran-patricia-briggs-mercy-thompson-and-alpha-omega/)
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on February 15, 2012, 04:25:04 pm
The comments are interesting too.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Elle on February 15, 2012, 04:51:04 pm
Really makes me wonder if Leah will do something that gets her, if not replaced then out of the AP pack. No love lost there on either side. I guess just how much Bran can live with things she's done.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: CarolKat on February 15, 2012, 05:23:20 pm
I loved Bran's response.  Maybe someday he can be happy again... Ambush Leah maybe?  ;D :-whistle
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Janilee on February 16, 2012, 01:24:44 am
As per the letter, you better make sure you did it right. LOL
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Midangel on February 16, 2012, 11:54:14 am
Really makes me wonder if Leah will do something that gets her, if not replaced then out of the AP pack. No love lost there on either side. I guess just how much Bran can live with things she's done.

There must be a limit to what Leah is able to do. I think Leah will either betray the pack if someone just as strong as Bran comes along, or she does something that will get her kicked out or even killed perhaps.

It would be awesome for Bran to finally have his happy days with a nice lady.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on February 16, 2012, 11:57:11 am
I have a sort of response, linked to the "love letter to Bran", but it's more Bran-centric, so I'm going to move it to the more Bran oriented thread.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Midangel on March 18, 2012, 08:04:55 am
Posted a link over at the Odds and ends. Info about Leah, and it pretty much puts a stop to a HEA between Bran and Leah.

http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6852.new#new
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 18, 2012, 08:23:52 am
Yeah, it's a "heads I win, tails, you lose" situation for her.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Arianwen on March 27, 2012, 10:40:29 am
Random thoughts, after reading the whole thread today (since I finished AO last night.... again).  Their relationship questions have nagged me all day.

Bran is loyal, I can't see him breaking his relationship with Leah unless she does something really bad.  He needs somebody for balance, because he hasn't found a way to ease the berserker in him any other way.  He is still a guy, and  sex is an answer for a lot of frustrations.  I don't think it would help pack stability for him to get those needs fulfilled by a succession of different women.  Women tend to get jealous and resent being replaced (& therefore cause trouble).  I just don't see Bran as a bed-hopper.  Therefore- keep Leah as mate.

I'm not sure how much Leah would want to protect Anna (being an Omega) if Leah already doesn't like her, especially if Anna helps her "feel".  I also don't know if she would be able to- her dislike may override her instincts.

I do not think anyone is "unredeemable", given the impetuous to change.  I would like to see her grow as a person.  I think it is possible that she & Bran could grow a better relationship, but it would take a lot of work on both of their parts to go in that direction.  I can't imagine overcoming a century+ of bad relationship habits.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: misspiggy4ever on March 20, 2016, 09:10:54 pm
I'm pretty sure Leah is just a miserable wretch. She doesn't really care about Bran, Sam, or Charles. I think she is more affronted that Bran is still in love with his wife. I think she is just insulted that he isn't enamored with her.  And thanks for that link to the open love letter. I'd never read that before. It was a fun little fan extra.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: pondhawk on March 21, 2016, 06:15:37 am
To her endless credit, Ms. Briggs doesn't write many cardboard, black or white characters. As a reader, when I see one that looks all good or all bad, I start looking for where the grey parts might be. This is useful in real life as well.

As a 50something adult, I have had the opportunity to meet women from my younger days, some of whom were bullies and some who knew those bullies better than I did. In every single case where a woman was a bully when they were younger, it turns out that they were living in horrifying conditions at home, to the point where relatives really should have gone to jail. In one case, the relative did, though about forty years too late. Some of these women had turned out much better than could have been expected, and some were still train wrecks.

We do have a right to expect better behavior from an adult than we do from a child or adolescent. What happens to you as a child is not your fault, but once you understand the problem, your choices are on you. In some cases, though, the damage goes so deep that the person may not be able to recognize the problem or how to fix it. Those are the ones that challenge us to practice compassion, the same compassion we hope others will grant us when we don't live up to their ideals, or even to our own.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: lostbird on March 21, 2016, 07:16:08 am
[...] I have had the opportunity to meet women from my younger days, some of whom were bullies and some who knew those bullies better than I did. In every single case where a woman was a bully when they were younger, it turns out that they were living in horrifying conditions at home, to the point where relatives really should have gone to jail. In one case, the relative did, though about forty years too late. Some of these women had turned out much better than could have been expected, and some were still train wrecks. [...]
And from my own experience I would like to add that sometimes those women have been spoiled rotten as children and grow up to be singled-minded and entitled; sometimes, the home is beautiful but the parents are emotionally distant and such a woman can turn out to be starved for attention and affection. It is not always the case that someone comes from obvious abuse. There are so many things that could have contributed to Leah being the selfish wolf that she is.

There are moments, however, where we are told things like Leah is protective of Kara (the young female were), and when Charles was going through his internal battles during FG, Bran (felt confident enough to) turned the pack finances over the Leah. Even in MC, when we first meet Leah, she is out helping new wolves learn how to hunt with the pack. So she's not so selfish that she walks around in a perpetual snit with a pout on her face. In this way, she reminds me of Mary Jo in Adam's pack. Mary Jo has moments when I'd like to shoot her, but her motivation comes from a place of low self-esteem (Adam deserves better than her or Mercy) and unrequited love (she's always been in love with Adam). Imagine if Mary Jo, given her temperament, was the unloved mate of Adam!

So until Patty drops a story on us that tells us more about Bran's hunt for a mate and how he came upon Leah, we're really never going to know Leah's motivations. I'm inclined not to hate her or bash her all the time for her actions. I find myself intrigued by a character who chooses to stay with someone whom she knows does not love her. It could just be for power. But it could also be because she loves him and is determined to wait him out. In reality, this kind of thing happens all the time.

Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: lostbird on March 21, 2016, 08:13:35 am
Hey guys,

I came across this and thought I would share. It's a letter addressed to Bran, and he responds! He shares a little tidbit about Leah. Makes for interesting reading ;) .

http://vampirebookclub.net/love-letter-to-bran-patricia-briggs-mercy-thompson-and-alpha-omega/ (http://vampirebookclub.net/love-letter-to-bran-patricia-briggs-mercy-thompson-and-alpha-omega/)


I'm catching up with the forums so I've only just discovered this link, read it and Bran's response. I love Bran ... but ... the more I get to know him, the less I like what I'm learning. He can be a bit of a jerk.


Not unlike a lot of men, Bran is sometimes completely clueless about how women feel and overly confident that he gets them. He doesn't. We see this all the time in his relationship with Mercy and his attitude toward her human foster mother (she checks him on this). We saw it clearly as he argued with Anna at the beginning of FG. Bran felt Anna didn't know what she was talking about where Charles was concerned, even going so far as to call her "stupid" and "little girl" to try to shut down the conversation, when in Mercyverse reality he was the one in denial about Charles's mental state, because Bran was responsible for putting Charles in the situation in the first place--doing so served his purposes. Anna is Charles's mate and she loves him and HE LOVES HER! Of course she knows what all this killing is costing Charles.


In Bran's response to the open letter when he says about Leah, rather flippantly, "It's not that she loves me...," according to him and everyone who knows him, he (supposedly) doesn't give a rat's ass about Leah--therefore, I'm not convinced that he has a clue how Leah truly feels, pack bonds be damned. It serves his purpose that she not love him. He won't allow himself to care how she feels--she just serves the wolf to keep his berserker asleep. But to say something like this, not only is this patronizing in the worse kind of way, it's also openly disdainful, disrespectful, and belittling. It's an attitude about Leah that he would not tolerate coming from the mouth of anyone else in his pack, including his own sons. She is his mate. An Alpha's mate. Period. She deserves at least the respect of that rank from him as well as everyone else.


I do like Bran most of the time, but I'm not blindly in love with this character. And in the relationship department, I have to agree with Cyna who asked in the comments of the open letter: "...Bran chose to marry someone 'selfish and stupid' so that he could dump his negative feelings on her to free up his emotions. So doesn't that kinda make Bran the asshole, here?" I'm starting to ask myself that same question.


It is a testament to Patty's skill as a storyteller that she has been able to portray Bran as a more rounded character even though we readers don't have much interaction with him. I hope this continues because it makes him more interesting. Nobody's perfect. In this same vein, however, Leah is probably not as bad as Bran makes her out to be. She's probably more interesting, too.







Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: pondhawk on March 21, 2016, 04:49:39 pm
I believe the term we're looking for here is "unreliable narrator". All of these characters see the world through the filters of their own biases and experiences. Given that we readers do the same thing, it behooves us to remember that no character or reader is omniscient, however ancient or appealing they may be.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: pondhawk on March 21, 2016, 05:07:51 pm
Posted a link over at the Odds and ends. Info about Leah, and it pretty much puts a stop to a HEA between Bran and Leah.

http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6852.new#new

I just read this link from a few posts back, and some of the things Patty says about Bran and Leah are pretty close to what lostbird is saying.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: mellinatre on March 22, 2016, 03:58:59 am
With Patricia Briggs I can't 100% hate most of the characters or supposedly villians... LOL probably this is what make me enjoy so much her books

I don't hate as much as some of you Leah because I am not sure about how much she is in this situation by her own doing, the point for me is that we don't know a lot about her and what we see it's like only a tiny % of what we should.

Oh don't get me wrong, I can and definetly do hate the majority of her actions but I can't find a point of view were I can say that she is only a bad person...like somone said before me she have done some little things that point out that she is capable of doing good deeds.

And like I already said about Bran and his relationship with Mercy, he is not the super-kind-and-totally-lovable-fella that the majority of the readers feel him to be....and if Bran have make so many bad decisions about Mercy or even Anna who am I to dismiss the thought that he could have make wrong decisions about Leah?
Taking in account that they had a longer relationship and so had many more occasions to actually do mistakes???

Bran is not the perfect mate for Leah so it is only understandable that Leah is not the good little wife for him..or so I think

there is a way of say here in my country that is "Volere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca"...I try to translate it the best I can "Pretend to have the wine bottle full and the wife drunk"...naturally you can't have both things and this is simply a musterful example of this way of say....the relationship between Leah and Bran work because they both have take in account what they needed to give up some things to make things work...and put 100% of the problems on Leah's end of the bargain is actually unreasanable fo me...also because she wasn't the one in need to a mate to remain stable...

Their marriage was made necessary for Bran's sake, and Bran actually sometimes, and more and more lately, treath Leah like an unwanted intruder....he can't pretend to have a good little wife at his back or a decent relationship till they both don't try to work on what they can do to make things better

Bran need to change his actitude as much as Leah...and for me think that only Leah is in the wrong always is a too semplicistc view of the most complex reletionship that I have ever read in a book
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 22, 2016, 06:23:11 am
This is a good view; not 100% Leah's fault; and we already know Bran makes mistakes, and isn't always nice, so simplistic black and white won't do it. 
In fact, forget 50 shades of gray, there needs to be a set of rainbows for who did/didn't do what right/wrong/contrary here.  We may need unnatural colors to lay it all out.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: lostbird on March 22, 2016, 06:39:43 am
Well said by all and agreed! I think I'm going to have to start pestering Patty about some Leah/Bran background. Not that she'll listen ...  LOL  ... but I think that Leah has been maligned enough. We know more about Sage's background (she was brutalized by her former pack) and she isn't mated to anyone yet (though, I've got my fingers crossed for her and Asil). The mate of the Marrok, given that she seems to cause so much trouble and ill-will by others, deserves some context.


As they say in divorce court, there are 2 sides to everything!
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: pondhawk on March 22, 2016, 06:34:34 pm
In fact, forget 50 shades of gray, there needs to be a set of rainbows for who did/didn't do what right/wrong/contrary here.  We may need unnatural colors to lay it all out.

I absolutely love this.

Can I nominate octarine?
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: Patti L. on March 22, 2016, 07:13:12 pm
I don't know, can you?
Lots and lots of nuance, and some bold bits.
Title: Re: Leah & Other Characters Discussion
Post by: YuleRule on March 28, 2016, 07:45:14 pm
I'm actually curious we know that the only person Bran's Beast-Beserker did not hurt was Samuel and he was pretty confident it would not hurt Charles either. However, for most wolves the only "safe" person is their mate. So would Bran's Beast-Beserker hurt Leah? Would it have hurt Blue Jay Woman?