Author Topic: Can witches become werewolves?  (Read 12301 times)

Holo

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Can witches become werewolves?
« on: April 27, 2013, 08:37:11 am »
I know Bran was able to turn Charles's mother, but it was also stated that she was not a technical witch. Can witches be turned into werewolves? Do they lose their powers if they do and just become normal werewolves? Or do they have extra abilities ordinary werewolves don't have?

Patti L.

  • Administrator
  • Hostess of Hurog
  • *
  • Posts: 12619
  • Not PattY Briggs. Keeper of the fluffy vortex.
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 09:37:16 am »
If I recall, Charles had some musings on the subject in "Fair Game", about how the three most dominant/powerful werewolves known (the Cornicks, surprise, surprise) are witchborn, and how it's not coincidence, and that it's forbidden to turn those of witchblood.
So my guess would be that, like Omega qualities, the witch powers probably increase for werewolves.
It's a leap year. Sanity is in short supply.  You can't have mine.

DandelionWine

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 04:30:25 pm »
And in Frost Burned it says that Adam avoids reminding Elizaveta about the way wolves don't age because he doesn't want to create a situation where she'd demand he changes her.
Sometimes you have to look reality in the eye - and deny it

big city wolf

  • Grease Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2013, 07:43:15 pm »
I believe in the last book Adam says that anyone who is another kind of supernatural cannot be turned into a werewolf. And it's because the three most powerful werewolves are witchborn (Bran, Samuel and Charles).  Bran and Charles could have become witches if they had studied witchcraft but did not want to do that.  So I think the answer is yes.

Has

  • Global Moderator
  • Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1989
    • Patricia Briggs Fans groups facebook page
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2013, 04:30:26 pm »
I think Mariposa gave a hint of what a witch could do by being linked with Sarai's wolf. She used the mate/pack bonds and that's pretty scary if a witch could somehow do the same in another pack.
-You aren't scary.  You are a good rabid fan-Courtesy of another rabid bookpusher called E something ;D

DandelionWine

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 06:35:21 pm »
I believe in the last book Adam says that anyone who is another kind of supernatural cannot be turned into a werewolf. And it's because the three most powerful werewolves are witchborn (Bran, Samuel and Charles).  Bran and Charles could have become witches if they had studied witchcraft but did not want to do that.  So I think the answer is yes.

Cannot, as in should not.  Not that it isn't possible, just that no one is supposed to knowingly do so.  Doesn't mean it can't happen by accident, my mistake, or by someone who thinks it'd be a good thing to do for some foolish or malicious reason.
Sometimes you have to look reality in the eye - and deny it

Patti L.

  • Administrator
  • Hostess of Hurog
  • *
  • Posts: 12619
  • Not PattY Briggs. Keeper of the fluffy vortex.
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 08:21:35 pm »
--as, for instance, Littleton among vampires, yes?
It's a leap year. Sanity is in short supply.  You can't have mine.

DandelionWine

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2013, 08:20:00 am »
Yep, and I also think there's a difference between someone who is witch-born, vx already a witch.  I mean, Bran obviously knew that his children had witch blood, but I am going to presume that Samuel never showed any desire to explore that avenue of his abilities before he was changed.  It seems to me from what has been said in Cry Wolf and from what has been said about Elizaveta and her family, the witches need to be raised in the tradition starting very young, not just have the blood. 

Charles of course was born a wolf, but Bran knew he'd be raised among his mother's people, and so would have that to fall back on and no access to any training in his Grandmother's path.  Seems to me that knowingly changing someone who is already a practicing witch would be a very risky thing. 
Sometimes you have to look reality in the eye - and deny it

lachapakhan

  • Tool Wrangler
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2014, 07:28:47 pm »
how about half-fae?

Zealith

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Pack Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2140
    • dragcaves
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2014, 09:48:47 am »
Probably depends on just how much fae magic they have in them.

Jabulani

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 128
  • Life is waaayyy too short to be grumpy...
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2015, 04:03:38 pm »
The question I have is whether witches are a separate species or just human bloodlines with magical potential? This would answer the question, I think.
I'd rather enjoy life...besides, it costs nothing to smile!!!

Patti L.

  • Administrator
  • Hostess of Hurog
  • *
  • Posts: 12619
  • Not PattY Briggs. Keeper of the fluffy vortex.
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2015, 11:23:03 pm »
Er, again, Bran, Charles, and Samuel are the son & grandsons respectively of a witch, and it's in one of the books that if Charles had taken European training, he could have been a witch, so why are we asking this question again?
It's a leap year. Sanity is in short supply.  You can't have mine.

Jabulani

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 128
  • Life is waaayyy too short to be grumpy...
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 11:28:08 am »
It's a legitimate question, Patti. They all tie in together. If witches are a separate species, then clearly it isn't just humans that can become werewolves. Call it a different approach to or perspective on the question. Or simply call it my need to put in my two cents' worth after such a long absence.
I'd rather enjoy life...besides, it costs nothing to smile!!!

Itsy-Cat

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2015, 12:28:10 pm »
You know, technically, a species is defined as a group of organisms that can interbreed to produce viable, fertile offspring.

Which means that humans, walkers, werewolves, witches and fae are all the same species.
At least, all of the supernatural types can interbreed with regular humans to produce fertile offspring. I'm not sure about the interbreeding between different supernatural groups.  ???

So far, the only examples of offspring of two different supernatural groups are Charles (werewolf+witch and werewolf+native magic) and possibly Bran, (child of a witch an a werewolf) (assuming that his dad was a werewolf before Bran was born, which we don't know.)
I kind of wonder what happened with Bran's parents etc; from the shifting shadows anthology story, it seemed that Bran's mother didn't used to have complete power over her family (were they all her family?) and Bran's father used to be under his own control, not the witch's, so why did he want to stay with a nasty witch like that anyway? Maybe it started as a relationship something more like the one with that werewolf alpha from Fair Game, (don't remember his name, the one with the dark witch girlfriend, who doesn't think it's a serious relationship, but was warned that the witch wouldn't like the idea of letting a powerful partner go or something?), then got worse and worse? Anyway, I guess that's getting off topic.

But, going back to original point, I don't think that the witches count as a separate species.


        

pondhawk

  • Big Bad Wolf
  • ***
  • Posts: 3120
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2015, 01:48:12 pm »
Species definitions can be a little fluid. Dogs and wolves can interbreed to produce fertile offspring. But witch blood sounds more like a breed distinction, analagous to something like a border collie. The herding instinct is usually but not always innate in that breed, and usually but not always requires training to be expressed appropriately.

Itsy-Cat

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2015, 08:39:03 pm »
Good point. Thinking about it, the fae probably consider themselves a separate species, despite technically being able to interbreed with humans, and they probably always have done, (from the time when they were in power and humans were puny unimportant magicless people, to the iron-filled world where they tried to hide, then tried coming out, to the more recent retreating to reservations...) they always are...sort of like humans and able to interbreed, but they're not humans. So I guess the fae and humans are like wolves and dogs?

And I think the analogy of witches being a sort of breed of humans fits too.

        

pondhawk

  • Big Bad Wolf
  • ***
  • Posts: 3120
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 07:35:40 am »
I think probably so. It's hard to see fae thinking of themselves as the same species, and frankly it's hard for me to see them as the same species, as humans or even in some cases as other fae. Maybe humans and different types of fae fall under the same genus, like wolves and coyotes and dogs are all canids.

Or maybe it's just, you know, magic.

Kkat07

  • writers
  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2015, 05:58:26 pm »
I always got the impression that witches are human magic users. So they could be turned into werewolves-but considering most witches are black witches, most wolves wouldn't want to turn them, and if they were in Bran's territory, at least, he'd probably have Charles kill a black witch who'd been turned into a werewolf. I forget which book it's in, I think Frost Burned, where Adam is thinking that if Elizaveta realized how old he was, she'd try to make him turn her and he'd kill her first.
I think Samuel stated in  Silver Borne that if Ariana had been human, she'd have been turned to werewolf, but since she was fae she only suffered. Someone who's of fae blood but mostly human probably could be turned, but someone who is genetically more fae than human probably couldn't.
Since fae is such a broad category, it probably also depends on the type.
WAKE THE SANTAMIND. -Eric James Stone

Itsy-Cat

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 10:47:48 pm »
For white witches, who aren't likely to be looking for extreme ways to get power, I'd guess they probably wouldn't be interested in becoming werewolves anyway, (unless it's for the same sort of reasons a human might, like Mercy's foster mother trying to become a werewolf because of that whole problem with the ageing human mate of a werewolf thing.) And as someone who'd already be a supernatural type etc, a witch mate may be even more aware of how dangerous the attempt to change into a werewolf is than a human mate might be? Or maybe they'd be about the same? ???

Anyway, with white witches, (assuming that the wolves are certain that they ARE a white witch), the risks and dangers are probably about the same as for regular humans.


I agree that Bran would not accept a dark witch turned werewolf, and would probably send Charles to kill them. Or do it himself if he felt it was too dangerous.
I suspect a dark witch's reasons for wanting to turn would be different to a human or white witch's reasons, with the exception of all of them possibly being interested in the immortality aspect.

The dark witches might be attracted to the idea of power (if the top three werewolves in the US are witchborn, but also male, and so weaker potential witches, and completely untrained in witch magic, then exactly how much more powerful could a well trained, female dark witch turned werewolf be?)
But then, they have the problem of the werewolves not accepting or wanting to create a dark witch turned werewolf (Adam mentioned that thing about never, ever turning Elizavita etc, so they are aware of the dangers, even if the witches themselves might not be aware of the fact that the three most powerful werewolves are witchborn etc, or might not have considered the implications).

So, if a dark witch did realise all this stuff, and considered the implications, realised how much power they could potentially have etc, they'd probably also realise that the werewolves would not be willing to turn them. And since the process of being turned involves being savaged to near death, but managing to survive, a dark witch who wanted to attempt the change wouldn't be able to be in control of the situation.
Even if they managed to convince a wolf to savage them in an attempt to change them, the wolf would likely make sure that the witch was killed in that attack.

So the dilemma for the witch would be how to get the wolf to savage them enough to turn, but not actually be killed. So... maybe find a wolf too stupid to understand the risks and agree to pay them a lot of money if the witch survived the change, and maybe spell them to never tell anyone about it? Or something like that.

Even then though, the whole process would still be very dangerous, and would a dark witch be willing to let themselves be that vulnerable at the time of being changed, even with the potential power they could get if they survived? I suspect that most of them wouldn't, unless they were desperate (e.g. getting old, like Elizavita, or suffering from some disease that becoming a werewolf could cure). I'd guess that they wouldn't consider it worth the risk while they were still healthy and powerful.

I do wonder though... from what we've seen in the series, witches in general do seem to know about the Marrok and his sons, and that the Marrok is the head wolf in the US and his sons high up in the hierarchy too. (Moira, the white witch mate of the Emerald city pack second, (I think?), knew, and so did the witches in Fair game that consulted for that other pack.) But do the witches know that those three most powerful werewolves in the US, possibly the world, are witchborn, or not?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 10:57:43 pm by Itsy-Cat »
        

pondhawk

  • Big Bad Wolf
  • ***
  • Posts: 3120
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 07:56:30 am »
That's a really good question. You would think it would be very strictly kept need to know information, but over the centuries even need to know information has a tendency to get known, or at least rumored.

Kkat07

  • writers
  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2015, 02:41:30 pm »
Some of them probably know that Charles has magic, but they might not know that he gets it from both sides of the family. Bran's mother has been dead for over a thousand years. Time enough for stories to turn into legend.
Most witches-excepting Bran's mother and Mariposa as far as we know-live a human life span, and the wars between the witch families apparently killed a lot of witches. So even if there are rumors about Bran being witch born,very few people could verify it. The fae know who he is, but the fae generally don't like witches and they don't share information without a price.
In Fair Game, Anna tells that witch Caitlyn or whatever her name is that Charles has magic on both sides of his family, come to think of it. So even though they don't broadcast it, I doubt Bran is overly worried about it. Now he would not want them to know that his mother held a pack of wolves under her control, or that it allowed her to live for centuries, but they can't do much with the knowledge that he is witchborn.
WAKE THE SANTAMIND. -Eric James Stone

Itsy-Cat

  • Mechanic
  • ****
  • Posts: 169
Re: Can witches become werewolves?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 01:57:41 am »
I'd forgotten that Anna told the witch in Fair Game about that, (though that witch was pretty scared of Charles at the time, so might not have really been listening, or processing what she was hearing, other than the fact that the wolf in front of her was scary and powerful.)
I think Adam said (about Elizavita) something about how if she ever really processed what she already knew about werewolves, she'd hunt him down and try to get him to turn her, and he'd kill her before he did that. So maybe it is not so much that the witches don't know, and more that the witches tend not to think through what they know about the wolves and what it might mean for them if they were changed?

On the other hand, the two witches we know of who did figure out how to control werewolves and gain their immortality, Mariposa and Bran's mother... well, they knew a lot about the wolves, and they had wolves under their complete control... but neither of them tried to become werewolves themselves.

Maybe that's because they'd have been too vulnerable during the actual change, and their enslaved wolves might have been able to break free during that time? Or maybe they figured they already had the power, immortality and the control over the wolves that they wanted, so why put themselves through the pain and suffering of the change if it wasn't really going to gain them anything more of what they wanted? I guess that would make sense.

So, maybe a dark witch who'd want to try and become a werewolf would be somewhere imbetween? So, one who had thought through and processed what they knew about werewolves, had somehow gotten over the fear of the Marrok and his sons, and realised they could gain power and immortality from becoming a werewolf, but didn't have the kind of knowledge that Bran's mother or Mariposa had, to get that power and immortality without actually becoming a werewolf themselves?
Maybe that's even happened in the past, but... a witch like that, (no longer scared enough of the Marrok, and with less knowledge about the wolves than Bran's mother or Mariposa,) well, they probably wouldn't last long. Even if they did manage to force/bribe/blackmail a wolf into turning them, they'd then be hunted down and killed as soon as the Marrok found out about it, and probably before the witch managed to learn to use the new abilities they had as a wolf?

« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 02:04:33 am by Itsy-Cat »