Author Topic: Legislation of the werewolves  (Read 19255 times)

Has

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Legislation of the werewolves
« on: January 14, 2008, 10:54:25 am »
While I was skimming over Iron Kissed over the weekend - I was wondering about the aftermath of the video of the rape and how it would affect the legislation of the werewolves. Although it looked like that Adam and Charles cleared things up - I bet the anti-supernatural groups will see this as a way to rile up the werewolves. They must know that riling up a werewolf will show that they can be dangerous and will use that for their own hate agenda- unlike the Fae who are more mysterious and dont have the loss of control a werewolf has.
Its going to be much tougher now especially now that the some of the anti supernatural groups know that this is one of their weaknesses and how dangerous they can be from the damage that Adam did to Tim's corpse- ( I presume that that the policeman who sent that edited tape is a member)

I also dont trust that lawyer that Mercy consulted with in Iron Kissed and she knows Mercy is a coyote- I know she is bound by confidentiality, but hate is a powerful thing especially in context with prejudice and from the sounds of it her own group sounds more insidious than Tim's.
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Lightning

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 11:01:04 am »
good question i think patty is going to work that into the next novel
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2008, 06:11:40 pm »
That does raise problems, but on the other hand, I can kinda see the werewolves going along with a registration of members or somewhat along those lines.  After all, it's more rules to follow. ;)
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2008, 05:21:04 am »
Yes, but it's following rules that are laid down by people who aren't wolves.  I don't think they'd like following rules made by those who are less dominant than even the most submissive werewolf (to a werewolf's way of thinking). 
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2008, 09:48:28 am »
They are already living under rules laid down by non-werewolves, and were before they changed into were.
But additional rules laid down by non-changers for them with no knowledge of how damaging those rules might be, that would definitely get up their noses.  Dominance might be irrelivant.
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Has

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2008, 10:20:21 am »
Yep I agree and what if there was pressure for them to be segregated into enclaves or a reservation like the Fae- but unlike the Fae who are using the reservations as anchors-  I cant see the werewolves living like that. Things are going to get more messy and tense I think.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2008, 06:09:34 pm »
Yes, but it's following rules that are laid down by people who aren't wolves.  I don't think they'd like following rules made by those who are less dominant than even the most submissive werewolf (to a werewolf's way of thinking). 

   Unless of course the Marrock gives the new laws his o.k., then they'd be obligated to follow them.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2008, 06:24:14 pm »
True enough, Grey, but I just can't see Bran agreeing to that.  In my mind (which is a strange place, so take it for what it is  ;) ), forcing the wolves to register would be a bit like what the Grey Lords did, and everyone seems to feel that Bran wouldn't just throw his people to the - uh, wolves - like that.  Just my thought. 
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2008, 06:39:54 pm »
ya but they said that in MC
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2008, 08:59:07 am »
Another factor is this - although they accept the Marrok's rules, werewolves are control freaks and I really dont see them buckling under bureaucratic red tape and especially human created laws. I agree Bran wont go along with that at all and he was adamant that the Bill could not pass in Iron Kissed. But I wonder if there is some kind of compromise has to be made. I also had another thought I wonder if we are going to see this in the Anna and Charles books since they are going to focus more on the werewolves. And did Charles take Anna along with him to calm Adam down in hearing because it must have been very difficult and stressful to see that again especially with the humans who will try to hijack this for political points.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 08:55:47 am »
Bran's money will have bought numerous Politicians to prevent segration to happen.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 11:21:39 am »
I think there is only so much money and power that Bran can give- there are other humans who have the same resources who can try to lobby against him. I also think the fundamentalist religious groups will also try to exert pressure- remember the witch burning mention in Iron Kissed. I think from the sounds of it that things will get even more worse and the Fae will be caught up with it as well which wont make them happy with the werewolves.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2008, 04:48:12 pm »
i was worried about that tape, but if adam was back at the end of IK he must have really made the politicians feel bad and sympathize with mercy's situation. so i don't know what exactly will happen with it but i bet it will be in future books


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Has

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2008, 05:11:46 pm »
I think that tape is going to have consequences- its proof for the bigots and people who want to hijack this for political gains. And although Adam and Charles has smoothed things over I really think it has weakened the werewolves position against some concessions which they may have to accept and not like :-\
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2008, 05:13:32 pm »
yeah, i know it will have something to do in the future.  i just don't know how for sure people are going to twist this exactly.  they will most likey use it against the fae too


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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2008, 10:43:12 am »
The tape was given only to the police and a policeman sent it to the politicians doing the legistlation - so the public shouldn't have seen it. I wonder how long before the police or politicians leak it though.

I don't trust that lawyer either, Has. I think she's not just going to forget that Mercy isn't human.

Has

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2008, 12:59:21 pm »
I know - I think that the tape will leak or perhaps another incident maybe caught on camera, I think the werewolves are going to face a very tough time.
And yep even though she suppose to have the client confidentiality agreement, I wonder if she hears about the incident with Mercy's attack and Adam's freak out on Tim's corpse. The John Lauren society must have links with Washington with some anti supernatural politicians- will she use this against Adam and Mercy especially since she knows that Mercy isn't fully human either?
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2008, 10:32:06 am »
Presumably the problem the fae have in being treated differently in law, including being subject to registration and reservations, is that they are not human and wouldn't want to claim to be human - they are too proud of what they are.  And so far it has worked to their benefit, as through being gathered together in reservations away from humans they have regained their connection with Underhill. 

But all weres are born human, and will surely be able to claim human rights just as any other human.  They just happen to have a virus (think HIV, with the initial reactions and the current ones).  Registration and reservations for weres should be as unacceptable as for any other group of humans.

In Europe, a were would have the same legal rights as any other human, under the European Convention on Human Rights.  Not too sure about the USA though.  Any US lawyers on this board?

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2008, 11:20:13 am »
Faellie, you are being logical and reasonable. However, humans as a whole tend not to react logically or reasonably to those who are different. Remember how people reacted to HIV patients at the beginning? It was, sadly, common practice at one time in the US to commit forced sterilization on mentally retarded people, obese people are still harasses. teased and discriminated against, legally no less. I have faint hope that the were's in Patty's world will fare better.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2008, 11:56:58 am »
I highly doubt it would be possible for the werewolves to live in reservations, etc... because they live in packs seperate from each other, I don't think they would be able to combine packs with two people who were formerly Alphas having to submit to the more dominant one.

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obese people are still harasses. teased and discriminated against, legally no less.

Well, no, not legally, that is in fact considered a hate crime and can be prosecuted as such, but it is rarely done.

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2008, 02:00:04 pm »
Well they are trying to discriminate obese people here and its in Europe- Some experts are advocating that the obese shouldnt be treated on the NHS and that also includes smokers and drinkers. And I know recently in Egypt they are arresting people with HIV and locking them up which is insane and inhumane :(
 
But I think there will be legislators and some factions who will try to remove the human rights of the werewolves - In IK they are trying to label them as an endangered spieces, which implies they are animals rather than humans.
And your right dsgholam there is no way packs could live in reservations - they will tear each other apart.
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Iris101

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2008, 01:35:24 pm »
Sorry but whats the NHS?

BTW its kinda off topic but those are my schools "initials" LOL  Northwest High School = NHS

Ellyll

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2008, 01:40:48 pm »
National Health System in England.  It's their healthcare system. 
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2008, 01:56:24 pm »
Has,  there is actually some similar talk in the US, even though we only have Medicaid and Medicare which only covers the elderly and some others.  If the health insurance companies could get away with it, they would refuse coverage to anyone who wasn't healthy!

But I think it will be in the Mercy Thompsen world how it is in our world.  There are always those who turn on the different.  Hopefully there will also be those who have the courage to stand with the persecuted and successfully defend all of us.

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2008, 02:10:13 pm »
I find that really scary- The whole point about the NHS (sorry Iris about the non explaination) is to treat everyone equally. That was one of the reasons why it was set up about 50 years ago. I cant  not help think that the Government is trying to privitize it - previous Governments have attempted it.
But if they try to this what else could stop them treating other 'undesirables'- What about people with disabilities? Mental illness?
When I read things like this it gives me chills and I like how the Mercy world is highlighting this. This is why I love sci-fi/fantasy. It asks the questions and tries to answer issues/ideas that many people ignore or are afraid to broach.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2008, 07:31:42 pm »
LOL  thats fine.

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2008, 01:25:12 am »
The problem about discrimination is always a difficult one. The NHS doesn't have enough to treat everyone, so they use some discrimination to decide who to treat. For instance they don't give liver transplants to alcoholics unless they have given up for some time, otherwise the transplant gets rejected again in 1-2 years. But it is fair? Should they just use chance / lottery to decide who, or should they give it to the people who would get the most benefit out of it? e.g. Someone whose liver transplant would last for many years, not just 1-2 years?

It is great that books open these questions so we do think about them, and also in a different setting where we're not so personally involved - we might already have strong opinions on obesity / drink / etc, but maybe not on werewolves? Or maybe we do now  :)

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2008, 01:18:21 pm »
I think that once the Fae and the Werewolves came out of the closet I doubt that the rest can hide especially if they could exist then logically it would mean other supernaturals would too. And would the government  and other suspicious bodies would look into that- and if the rest do come out of the closet either by force, accident or on purpose - it looks like things are going to get sticky. Would the government impose a registration scheme like they did with X-men movies/comics - I can see this becoming similar to what the Jews suffered in Nazi Germany. But it doesn't help with organizations like the evil woman lawyer belongs to or Tim's group who will try to incite hatred and violence.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2008, 02:26:12 pm »
But if they try to this what else could stop them treating other 'undesirables'- What about people with disabilities? Mental illness?

I'm doing a current events project it school, and some of the information I've found is about this.
There was a movment in the US and Europe early in the century, I think it was called the neogenetic, when they forcably sterilized 'undesirables', as well as doing other things like that.
 

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2008, 02:48:58 pm »
Yeah and when the Nazi's were in power they also gassed and forcibly sterilized as well performed  experiments on the disabled :(
Its like that film Gattaca where they tested children at birth for prospective diseases or illnesses and children were created in test tubes instead of naturally. I think some experts are stating that babies should be tested at birth but there will def be insurance companies or other organisations who would use this against those who could have disabilities or illnesses. As a disabled person the whole concept of eugenics gives me chills.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2008, 10:38:55 pm »
Actually Has, they're testing before birth.  My OB-Gyn informed me at my last visit that next time he would do the quad-screen, a (not-always-accurate) test that screens for several genetic disorders.  It has a high rate of false positives and if that happens you get to have an amnio (oh, yay).  Interestingly, in my earlier pregnancies the test was either not offered  (when I was 25) or I could refuse it (when I was 29).  Of course this is a different doctor, but now that I'm over 30 (barely, I'll be 32 in March) the test is presented as mandatory.  I'm sure I could refuse it (and we're considering it), but then you get to go through all the doctor lectures.  Sigh.

Plus if the baby fails the APGAR at birth, there is a whole slew of tests, your pediatrician will insist on.  Of course, many times that's good.  It's always better to know so you can start treatment.

Still, prenatal testing does lead to the abortion of disabled children (I'm really not judging here) and considering where our society has gone in the past, that has scary connotations.

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2008, 08:20:12 am »
My sister had all of her kids when she was over 30 and the doctors did just assume that she'd have those tests.  She told them absolutely not.  So you can opt out if you want to, although it is, of course, a personal decision.  I do think it's wrong of the doctors to present it as if it's mandatory; it is, and should remain, a decision to be made by the parents. 
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2008, 08:33:11 am »
Folks, it definitely has scary possibilities.  My brother and SIL had their first child when she was almost 40 (brother was younger, but not a lot).  Their docter tried to insist on an Amnio test simply because of her age.  At the time they asked what good and bad could come of it.  Mostly at the time it was an invasive procedure to detect genetic birth defects that had the possibility of injuring the fetus or aborting the child.  After finding all the Drs could do at the time was to allow an abortion if problems were found, they decided against the test.  They wouldn't have chosen abortion if any of the conditions that could have been diagnosed were found.  It wasn't that they were anti abortion, or that they would condemn others for a different decision, it was just that they decided they would love and raise their child regardless, so the test was an unneccesary risk.  They did do all the non invasive, non risky tests, just not that one.

Now days, I believe we're getting to the point we can correct some birth defects very early due to these tests.  I hope this is the direction things continue to go.

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2008, 01:40:55 pm »
Hmm.  This might go into the to have or not to have children thread, it's getting off topic, but I'll throw in a thought anyway.  Anyone read "The Speed of Dark" by Elizabeth Moon? 
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2008, 04:37:22 pm »
Folks, it definitely has scary possibilities.  My brother and SIL had their first child when she was almost 40 (brother was younger, but not a lot).  Their docter tried to insist on an Amnio test simply because of her age.  At the time they asked what good and bad could come of it.  Mostly at the time it was an invasive procedure to detect genetic birth defects that had the possibility of injuring the fetus or aborting the child.  After finding all the Drs could do at the time was to allow an abortion if problems were found, they decided against the test.  They wouldn't have chosen abortion if any of the conditions that could have been diagnosed were found.  It wasn't that they were anti abortion, or that they would condemn others for a different decision, it was just that they decided they would love and raise their child regardless, so the test was an unneccesary risk.  They did do all the non invasive, non risky tests, just not that one.

Now days, I believe we're getting to the point we can correct some birth defects very early due to these tests.  I hope this is the direction things continue to go.


That's exactly how my sister and BIL felt about it.  From their perspective, it was a potentially dangerous test to no purpose (and, by the way, I know a few people who got false positives and spent months agonizing, only to give birth to perfectly healthy children), since they weren't going to abort their children in any case. 
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2008, 08:43:05 pm »
Hmm.  This might go into the to have or not to have children thread, it's getting off topic, but I'll throw in a thought anyway.  Anyone read "The Speed of Dark" by Elizabeth Moon? 

Veering a bit off topic. I can move these posts over to the Children thread if you all want to continue discussing this issue.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 06:00:18 am by Wicked Witch »
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dsgholam

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2008, 10:46:47 pm »
Going back to the legislature part, it seems to me that the werewolves, vampires, fae, etc... would be covered under the hate crimes enhancement act in the U.S. That would not necessarily protect them from being discriminated against by the government, but it would make anyone who committed a crime against them eligible for harsher punishments than someone who did not commit a hate crime.

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #37 on: February 29, 2008, 01:42:56 am »
PattiL - I read that book and loved it.

I've just started a Elizabeth Moon thread in the authors to open up the chat on it...

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #38 on: February 29, 2008, 09:57:49 am »
Going back to the legislature part, it seems to me that the werewolves, vampires, fae, etc... would be covered under the hate crimes enhancement act in the U.S. That would not necessarily protect them from being discriminated against by the government, but it would make anyone who committed a crime against them eligible for harsher punishments than someone who did not commit a hate crime.

But I don't think that would be the case, although the government will try to use that as a way to control the situation as well as spinning the legislation as good PR; and ensuring that they dont look like they are discriminating against the werewolves/fae. But the fact is although the fae can portray that they are helpless and not dangerous, with the werewolves its much more difficult especially with the situation with Adam getting caught tearing Tim's corpse apart on camera- If the supernatural beings are deemed to be not helpless than they can pose a danger and no spinning/PR can help their cause to the public.
I wonder though  whether the government will use the werewolves for other purposes especially since the werewolves are involved with the military.  I also wonder what the other governemnts will do to their population of werewolves/fae in comparison to what the US one is doing. Will they be discriminated and travel to the States for amnesty or will it be the other way round of the legislation goes through because there will be no way that packs along with Alphas that could live in a territory together.
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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #39 on: February 29, 2008, 12:25:33 pm »
Well, no minority within the United States is completely helpless, yet they are all covered under that act. The exact wording of what constitutes a hate crime under that act is:

Quote
A crime in which the victim was selected ”because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person.”

It seems to me that since werewolves are being looked at as having a disease, they would be covered under the disability part of that act, as well as fae, vampires and werewolves being races of people. Since that is already in place, it seems to me that Bran would be in a situation to take advantage of that and other pre-existing laws, at least within the United States.

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2008, 12:40:10 pm »
But I dont think Bran wants any kind of legislation to pass through - remember in IK Bran was adamant that the bill that classed werewolves as an endanged species should  go through because the werewolves might be forced or encouraged to live in reservations like the fae. That will be a total nightmare because you cant have packs living together because the Alphas would end up with dominance issues with each other.
But I suppose they could be classed with a disability type bill where they might be protected from discrimination but then they may be forced to wear a sign/ or admit they are werewolves which goes back to the earlier argument of what the Nazi's did to the Jews and other minority groups. I can see that happening because whatever the case- there will be certainly some sections in the governement and other social bodies who will demand that all werewolves should be declared one for safety issues.
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jackie

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2008, 06:02:32 pm »
There is often a difference between the law as written and how it is enforced.  The law sets a higher standard, we hope.  As any young  black or hispanic man can tell you, he often gets hassled or even picked up by copswithout any provokation.  My son only looks hispanic and he has had trouble with it.  Luckily it hasn't gone any further for him than a hassle, but we know others who now have records because they were not even in the wrong place, but just convenient.

Patty has already been dealing with the difference between human law and enforcement, and supernatural law and how it's enforced.  Should make for lots of good books.

grommet

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2008, 12:28:55 pm »
Zealith the term which was used early in the twentieth century was eugenics.  Thats my recolection. 

Zealith

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2008, 01:43:59 pm »
Then I was close, thanks.
 

dsgholam

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Re: Legislation of the werewolves
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2008, 11:06:28 am »
Going back to the part about being a werewolf being like a disease, something like HIV, is kind of misleading because I do not believe anyone would willingly elect to be infected by HIV, but almost every werewolf willingly elected to become a werewolf. Sure that doesn't apply to people like Adam and Anna, but it still muddies things legally as to whether werewolves really ought to be treated like anyone infected with a disease. Furthermore, I'm going to go against my own previous point in that while no minorities protected under the Hate Crime Enhancements Act are completely helpless, none that is considered somehow disabled has that disability come in the form of superhuman strength and a longer life span. So, basically it is a very interesting situation and I'll be curious to see how Mrs. Briggs handles it.

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