Author Topic: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?  (Read 121007 times)

Patti L.

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2007, 07:09:32 am »
I just see a big Catch-22 in trying to get a female Alpha.  No unmated females allowed, female takes rank of mate.  The only way I could see it happening would be if an Alpha male married/mated to a potential Alpha female & died.  Then the second would challenge her for the position, if not simply being assumed to take it.  So she would have to fight him for it.  And if she won, the third, & any other nearby dominant who decided that it was either time to head a pack or that 'a woman can't handle the job', or 'it's just not done'.  So she'd be wounded all the time, thus unable to do the job effectively, thus 'proving' that 'a female can't handle it'.  See Royesse Iselle in 'The Curse of Chalion' for the similar feminist problem.  Well, she didn't actually have that, but what a princess with a brother in a male dominated monarchy can expect.  And darned good storytelling, of course. ;-D
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jenglows

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2007, 12:18:49 pm »
I'm just not convinced that Bran is all that concerned with the treatment of women at all.  i think his personal behavior is good, but he doesn't seem to be making any moves to address the problems in the rest of the flock. I'm getting this picture because of the way the other Alphas are described when Kara's placement is discussed.  Even in Adam's pack, Honey is hit by another wolf for allowing Mercy in the house, even though we know she can kick butt, she doesn't defend herself(at least that's what I took from the scene).  Allowing yourself to be beaten and not fighting back because you feel like you deserved the punishment is classic abuse-pattern behavior, even in a limited context like the door incident. And I think we agreed that Adam is more enlightened than most Alphas.  ;)

charmed

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2007, 08:31:04 pm »
Glow, the behavior you describe is classic abuse behavior. In humans. By defintion, Honey is no longer human. While I hope she wouldn't put up with this in a human on human situation, normal behavior is different in the werewolves. I don't like it but does that mean it's wrong?

Now, I want the females to be treated better and have more rights, and I want the packs to become more egalitarian. But let's face it, wolf packs are hierarchical and the males are usually dominant.


So, if werewolf behavior follows, more or less, wolf behavior, can we expect the women to see their treatment as wrong? Have their human patterns of behavior been overwritten by the werewolf instincts? Is it realistic given the world as Patty has set it up?

Sorry if this is confusing. It's late, I'm tired and my eyes are dry.

Edited for many, many typos due to tiredness.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2007, 07:23:12 am by charmed »
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Patti L.

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2007, 08:41:24 pm »
Booze 'em up & get over to the chat room, Mrs. Briggs has arrived & is expounding, twin.
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Spryte

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2007, 09:46:12 am »
arg. I missed the chat because I was forced to go to a party by my parents. grrrrr.

Charmed, you brought up a very valid point. In an all wolf setting, or furry friends are more likely to go with what the wolf tells them instead of by human standards of behavior as they would in their normal life. And we have seen the wolf vs human nature aspect in other areas as well.

I guess that what I really want to see, although a female alpha would be great, is an end to the "no lone female" policy, and there be much much much less of the abuse of female werewolves.
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Grey Drakkon

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2007, 11:03:42 am »
Allowing some things to percolate in my morass of a mind, some things bobbed to the surface.  One major one is that what if the males acting as they are has more to do with how their human filters the wolf?  What I mean is, to the wolf there is no right or wrong, no morality.  Humans tend to view violence as "evil", while to the wolf it's a means of communication, and a survival technique.  What if so many of these weres are exacerbating the wolf's behavior by mentally freaking out about it, by repeating in their heads over and over "I'm a bad person because...".  It could be giving them permission in their minds to act even worse than they normally would, because they think "Well I'm already damned, there's no helping it so whatever."  Basically, they have no hope that they can be "good", so just dive headfirst into being rat bastards. 

   From what it sounds like, there are very few trustworthy weres running around, as we saw when they were trying to place that girl into a pack. 
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Patti L.

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2007, 02:52:30 pm »
Allowing some things to percolate in my morass of a mind, some things bobbed to the surface.  One major one is that what if the males acting as they are has more to do with how their human filters the wolf?  What I mean is, to the wolf there is no right or wrong, no morality.  Humans tend to view violence as "evil", while to the wolf it's a means of communication, and a survival technique.  What if so many of these weres are exacerbating the wolf's behavior by mentally freaking out about it, by repeating in their heads over and over "I'm a bad person because...".  It could be giving them permission in their minds to act even worse than they normally would, because they think "Well I'm already damned, there's no helping it so whatever."  Basically, they have no hope that they can be "good", so just dive headfirst into being rat bastards. 

   From what it sounds like, there are very few trustworthy weres running around, as we saw when they were trying to place that girl into a pack. 
I'm not sure that last sentence is right, Drakkon.  It's the Alphas that are problems, not the general pack membership.  And another thing for us to be aware of in this speculation, which is so fun, is that these aren't *wolves*.  They're *werewolves*  Their behavior has always, I  repeat, always been influenced by their human natures.  Because of the tight control that real wolves do on breeding, there isn't anything like the abuse that Anna was subjected to, or Kyra threatened with, in real wolf packs.  First off, male wolves won't be interested in the females unless they're in heat, which happens at most twice a year, unlike humans & werewolves, who may be fertile (if, yes, unable to complete a pregnancy) up to 13 times a year among females, & always ready to jump a female if male (and not the rare gay), so that's clearly a human origin issue.  Second, only the alpha pair breeds.  And third, newer research shows that the whole 'one leader' thing may not be correct for wolves, any more than it was for the american indian tribes.
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Grey Drakkon

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2007, 03:38:31 pm »
Ohh I know that the the human comes into play a lot when it comes to sex, that's one of the things I was trying to say.  The "wolf" part of them may cause aggression, but the human is the one that expresses it in violence towards females. 
 
   Another major difference in the pack hierarchy, is from what I read the female alpha picks the male alpha, after all, it's kinda hard for a male wolf to rape the female when she can just tuck her tail down. :P
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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2007, 04:50:23 am »
I thought in real wolf packs that the female alpha actually had more power then the male...Maybe I'm just nuts after watching a ot of animal planet
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Grey Drakkon

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2007, 05:13:46 am »
From what I've read, it's mostly balanced, the male is in charge of keeping the males in line, and the female does likewise for the females. 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2007, 05:14:41 am »
Ah the queen of the wolves
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Patti L.

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2007, 07:47:21 am »
Why not?  I based the weretiger society in my stories around the lion social structure, although I didn't realize it until just now.  The females hold the territory, & the males come in from outside.  In lion prides, the males will kill immature cubs, especially male ones, to encourage the females to stop lactating & go into breeding mode more rapidly, but the females may refuse the males anyway until they're satisfied that they'll last, not be killed by the next pair (it's usually a pair) to come down the pike.
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Spryte

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2007, 04:41:08 pm »
bloody but effective.
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Kiersten Walks Funny

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2007, 09:35:59 am »
i'm just waiting for mercy to lead the revolution with the women in the pack


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Pink Elephants

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Re: Werewolf Revolution
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2007, 04:54:14 am »
I can see it now all the female weres running around in kilts with blue face paint screaming FREEDOM!
And now to the feast of Capulet, where Romeo is doomed to meet his Juliet. And where, in a scene of timeless romance, he tries to get into Juliet's pants.