Author Topic: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?  (Read 176817 times)

Prince of Pain

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #315 on: September 07, 2013, 08:48:05 pm »
Plenty of females have filled the shoes of despots over the ages, but werewolves have their own customs and history, not to mention the whole pack magic thing.   I suspect the changes would need to be much more gradual, especially in Europe where traditions haven't moved as much as in the US where Bran has been somewhat laid back about changes within packs.  He doesn't obviously push them, but doesn't block them either.  If Adam has Warren in a fairly high spot in his pack, that's ok.  If he brings a Coyote shifter into the pack, that's ok since the magic allowed it.  He balances the outside influences with tradition and I kinda think he does do a little gentle influencing. 

I actually doubt Patty wants to get too far removed from her storyline so the focus doesn't get too diluted, though I guess I'd like to hear word about a few other packs' experiences have changed as far as modern stuff goes... but the focus is on Adam's packs in the MT books, and lately on how the general public is getting along with the packs in the A&O books.  (also on Charles and Anna and the Marrok pack of course too)...

I know we like to discuss a lot of things here, but really, getting too far afield in the books would not be true to the storylines!  Going to Europe with this would be an awful stretch.

Plus the other thing you've got to remember about Bran is that he's an Alpha's Alpha.  And all Alpha's are control freaks.  He's used to male domination of the packs.  It doesn't effect him personally (too much) since he's the Marrock and he can give any women in his vicinity basically whatever power he wants whenever he wants and who's going to say boo?  Also remember male domination is something he's grown up with and grown used to.  Inertia and Control.  With the inertia actually helping to increase his control.

So he might be on the female rights band wagon in an intellectual/ethical level.  But anything that threatens his control of North America is going to have to take a back seat.  Such as revolutionary enfranchisement that potentially threatens his position making him or north america look weak to outsiders.  On the other hand, taking as much of a hands off position on his Individual Alpha's and how they run their packs really adds to his 'benevolent dictator' role, versus say lots of those euro-top dog alpha's and even local NA alpaha who come across as tyrannical dictators.  As long as he limits his changes inside subordinate alpha's packs to the removal of those alphas who challenge or offend him and the occasional tyrannical alpha leader whose own pack is singing the Marroks praises afterwards, then he limits his challenges from below and enhances North America's werewolf happiness levels.  All of which helps him stay in power and helps him eliminate the excesses such as they are experiencing in europe.

Plus I suppose its one thing to say those dominant females like Honey should have their shot at the brass ring, and another entirely to look around and see that because of the size factor the majority of the females (even if they had to right to) don't want to get killed in dominance challenges they know they can't win and then push the female rights bolder up hill.  Not when they have so few females in the packs as it is.

I think it would be hard enough to make equal rights an equal right for the girls, when the females are so low in numbers to begin with and would get slaughtered in pack dominance challenges (assuming Adam's pack and Honey are any guide stick) with possibly a lower ranking werewolf challenging some higher ranking male werewolf's mate in order to kill her and destabalize the pack.  Say if his brother was killed and he wanted revenge or any of another hundred things that might happen.

Making some more complicated separate but equal charter for the ladies would also be a big headache.  With all the special butterfly provisions.  As people naturally try to pick and choose the parts that would beneift them the most.  Definitely a headache even if successful so I suppose he probably is looking at it much like the Federal Government was originally set up to look at the various States.  The lower level packs beneath the Marrock are the test beds of innovation and he can poiint to something that works and something that doesn't and then pick and chose.  With a pilot program already up and running to emulate.  If and when he gets around to it.



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« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 08:50:10 pm by Prince of Pain »
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Mel

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #316 on: September 17, 2013, 12:37:38 am »
I think I am missing something, from reading the books it is mentioned that dominance fights take place when the ranking between two wolves is undefined, when the two wolves are closely matched. Most dominance issues are settled with a face down (otherwise I think that brother wolf would be scraping every five minutes’).
So setting aside Europe for the moment if there was a dominant female as Alpha in the North America’s the challenges she would get would be from neighbouring Alphas who wanted to expand their territory. Seeing as the Alphas are not constantly already trying to encroach on each other’s territory should we presume it is because of the Marrock or because they are closely matched & already have enough on their plate?
Challenges would take place to begin with until dominance and ability to rule/lead had been established. Brans wolf it has been mentioned is small so maybe size doesn’t matter (just forget his age for the moment!) And let’s not forget that challenges don’t always end fatally.
I really don’t think a female Alpha either in Europe or in North America would make Bran look weak. The European wolves are low in numbers and do not pose a threat, there are low numbers in Australia & Africa and one possible wolf in Asia who changed Adam.
The Fae only appear to discriminate against the weak and the Vampires just don’t seem to have the numbers or the desire to work together. The female I agree would have to at least appear to be Brans Idea and I concede that at the moment within the story lines of the books this would not be a good time for yet more change. However I still stand by what I said before “why not”!.

catchmeifyoucan

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #317 on: September 17, 2013, 02:22:19 am »
Until Adam brought Warren into his pack and let him gain position, gay weres were abused and killed whenever possible by other packs.  It didn't take Bran to make that change.  He just had to support it after the fact by not having Warren removed and killed.

I think the same situation would apply to women pack members.  If one has the ability to take a role in the pack (and I might be mixing my authors here, but wasn't there a mention that some other pack had a woman as third?) and Bran didn't step in to stop it, I think the change would start to happen. 

Size isn't the deciding factor in a dominance fight since Bran is a very small wolf and he has built quite an empire in America.  I think it is the innate strength of will and dominance of the person in the battle as much as anything else.  And we've already seen several dominance fights where the weaker person did not get killed.  In fact, I think the only times we've seen battles where people have died it has been a punishment fight where Charles has had to kill the other wolf (at least I can't think of another situation off the top of my head) so that might be one of the things that slowed down as the wolves have come out.

I think we just need to have more women want to step out of the submissive role they've been placed in by were society for it to become acceptable for women to lead.  Lets not forget that a lot of the women that are currently weres are probably as old as the men (or older since they haven't been involved in much fighting) so they were probably raised to believe that women should submit to men.  More modern women such as Anna, Mercy and Mary Jo (Honey prefers to submit to men even though she is dominant, if I remember correctly) will be interested in giving all women the chance to be more powerful and ranked within the pack.

laurel97

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #318 on: February 08, 2015, 04:54:48 pm »
I'm waiting for a lone Female Wolf to enter the stage. I think Bran might half support female rights, because he knows that he's the medium between the genders. I think the problem in the books is that women seem content with their situation, and aren't openly rebelling. And it is a dominance thing, if a person was to openly rebel against the Marrok, it would be a long struggle and require series guts.

ironkitten

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #319 on: February 09, 2015, 12:37:01 pm »
I forget which book, but Bran already took on a stray female were. Plus as previously stated Adam's pack and the Marrock's pack usually take the more delicate cases. A lot of the dominance thing is just that - an animal instinct that has served to preserve certain animal species. In very few rare cases there is the female alpha out there. I think Anna since she is an omega would be a fun pack leader - all the things that could go wrong with that situation would be right up coyote's alley.
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Patti L.

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #320 on: February 09, 2015, 10:49:54 pm »
I forget which book, but Bran already took on a stray female were. Plus as previously stated Adam's pack and the Marrock's pack usually take the more delicate cases. A lot of the dominance thing is just that - an animal instinct that has served to preserve certain animal species. In very few rare cases there is the female alpha out there. I think Anna since she is an omega would be a fun pack leader - all the things that could go wrong with that situation would be right up coyote's alley.

Anna is Omega, not Alpha.  Not happening.  Mercy, on the other hand... She hasn't the physical attributes, but like an Alpha or an Omega, she has a strong desire to protect those around her, her 'pack'.   She tends to see the not-horrible people in the world as her pack.

Also, many animal species have matriarchies, where a particular female is In Charge, if not technically the alpha.
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DandelionWine

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #321 on: March 08, 2015, 03:45:21 pm »
 Agreeing with Patti L. and with much of the other things said here, such as Anna absolutely would NOT be interested in any sort of dominance fight, for one thing she doesn’t need to dominate anyone and she doesn’t feel any big need to ‘submit’ to Charles OR Bran or anyone else, even if she does defer to them a lot of the time because well… reality!  It seems to me that the dominant personality of the wolf and person much overrides size or sex.  I didn’t always agree with my boss, but I knew the boss had more than what I could see to manage, and different aspects of the job to manage. 

I have to wonder how many of the women weres feel the need to rise in the hierarchy.  I imagine that mostly depends on their personality and for that matter, IMO, most women I know may want to get to a better place at work, but it’s not for ALL the same reasons men do. In both sexes it seems to me that they both may want better pay, more stability, think they can do a better job, as well as some I’ve probably missed, but I’ve watched men try to get positions they don’t really want all that much, and perhaps aren’t even all that well suited to, just so they can be the ‘boss’.  Not trying to pick a fight on that, it’s just my opinion, and I’m old. 

Mary Jo is bugged by her need to downplay her strength and attitude at her mundane job as a firefighter, and she doesn’t much like her place in the pack as a were, so to me she clearly wants to take her place dominance wise in the pack.  Honey is happy with things as they are.  I’m not sure that’s a conflict. It looks like Mary Jo is likely to continue her struggle through the levels if she chooses just as any male were may do and Honey can accept a lower rank just as any male were can choose to do by not challenging anyone for a higher place.  Warren is not asserting his position as second even though he could force the issue with Daryl if he chose to after all.  It seems to me that he’s not doing this partly for the good of the pack overall, partly because to push the issue would cause a lot of problems for Adam, and partly because it would make his life needlessly complicated.   

As far as the Were packs go otherwise, Omega means ‘outside’ the dominance structure, while still being within the pack.  Since members of the pack are both human and wolf to some degree, no matter which form any or all are in, they include human AND wolf aspects all the time, luckily the submissive Weres have a respected spot in the Were pack as opposed to a wild pack.

In a true wolf pack the Omega wolf is FAR from what it means in Patty’s Were packs.  What biologists call an omega in a wild wolf pack is more what Patty calls a submissive wolf, only even lower in some ways if you are going to anthropomorphize them.  We may not appreciate it in a wild pack, but it is what it is. 

I don’t personally think Bran is either for or against women in the packs having a different role in any pack, it’s more a case of him not interfering with the decisions of any pack’s Alpha as long as said pack is solidly under the Alpha’s control and functioning well in society so neither his pack nor any other packs are in danger.  Bran isn’t big on change, he just recognizes that it is sometimes unavoidable and will probably need to be managed.

 A Were pack isn’t like an organization where talent or ability should be recognized fairly.  It’s about magic, instinct, (animal and human instinct) concern about humans and the society outside the pack which means enforcing best behavior from BOTH sides of the pack members, and a lot of other things which I’m not coming up with at the moment.  Probably, different pack members have differing levels of wolf instinct behavior issues too.  We’re NOT going to *convert* wolf packs to modern sensibilities, for one thing, they’re Patty’s creations.  If we are going to pretend they were a real situation though, I’d guess that time would take care of the issues and most of the wolves after all would have a lot of time to work it out eventually
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Prince of Pain

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #322 on: March 23, 2015, 05:29:19 am »
I forget which book, but Bran already took on a stray female were. Plus as previously stated Adam's pack and the Marrock's pack usually take the more delicate cases. A lot of the dominance thing is just that - an animal instinct that has served to preserve certain animal species. In very few rare cases there is the female alpha out there. I think Anna since she is an omega would be a fun pack leader - all the things that could go wrong with that situation would be right up coyote's alley.

Anna is Omega, not Alpha.  Not happening.  Mercy, on the other hand... She hasn't the physical attributes, but like an Alpha or an Omega, she has a strong desire to protect those around her, her 'pack'.   She tends to see the not-horrible people in the world as her pack.

Also, many animal species have matriarchies, where a particular female is In Charge, if not technically the alpha.


You know I agree.  That said.  I always thought that if you had say 3-4 submissives and a disfunctional Ben type minor low powered dominant all thrust together in an Anne story, where Charles and other dominant weres weren't present and they had to spent a significant amount of time together away from other werewolves.  That the very 'zen alpha' which is our Omega might be forced to jolly everyone along together and defacto take over the minipack, 'for the good of the pack' wherein the dominant isn't very stable and knows it.  Where the submissives 'can't' stand up to him if he cycles off the bulkhead for internal reasons exacerbated by fear of the stressful position.  She might find her 'zen' state causing her some mental pain.

I do think that if she did get put in charge in such a situation that it wouldn't look much like she was a temporary Alpha right up until she found herself at the top of a the miniature pack bonds.

That said yes its a contrived situation.  But I do honestly think there is a situation out there where her Omega qualities could force her to take over.  I.E. a lot of submissives and one dysfunctional dominent that's minor on the dominance scale and honestly doesn't want to hurt anyone but might not be able to help it in certain circumstances.



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lostbird

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #323 on: March 23, 2015, 06:02:04 am »
You know I agree.  That said.  I always thought that if you had say 3-4 submissives and a disfunctional Ben type minor low powered dominant all thrust together in an Anne story, where Charles and other dominant weres weren't present and they had to spent a significant amount of time together away from other werewolves.  That the very 'zen alpha' which is our Omega might be forced to jolly everyone along together and defacto take over the minipack, 'for the good of the pack' wherein the dominant isn't very stable and knows it.  Where the submissives 'can't' stand up to him if he cycles off the bulkhead for internal reasons exacerbated by fear of the stressful position.  She might find her 'zen' state causing her some mental pain.

I do think that if she did get put in charge in such a situation that it wouldn't look much like she was a temporary Alpha right up until she found herself at the top of a the miniature pack bonds.

That said yes its a contrived situation.  But I do honestly think there is a situation out there where her Omega qualities could force her to take over.  I.E. a lot of submissives and one dysfunctional dominent that's minor on the dominance scale and honestly doesn't want to hurt anyone but might not be able to help it in certain circumstances.



I guess I'm not seeing this because I've been under the impression that submissives, while not rare, are not abundant in a pack, either. So for me, your premise doesn't work. After Peter died, there are mentions of Adam's pack having lost it's heart--which is what a submissive is.


Not saying there can't be 3 or 4 in a pack. Just that I think 1 or 2 is probably the paradigm in the Mercyverse.


Also, this is just my subjective opinion. Based on nothing more than a feeling.


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Mel

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #324 on: April 17, 2015, 11:08:51 am »
In a true wolf pack the Omega wolf is FAR from what it means in Patty’s Were packs.  What biologists call an omega in a wild wolf pack is more what Patty calls a submissive wolf, only even lower in some ways if you are going to anthropomorphize them.  We may not appreciate it in a wild pack, but it is what it is. 



 Hello, I think you might find this article interesting: http://www.felixho.be/en/canineSquad/wolf_2.html
I like yourself always thought Omega meant bottom of the pack but apparently not! I have also attached a quote from Shaun Ellis (not sure how it will turn out!), a really fascinating read.
I have to say loving the new wolf in "Dead Heat", I think Chelsea is a step towards a future female Alpha, can't wait to see where Patricia Briggs is going to do with her creations next  LOL

Mel

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #325 on: April 17, 2015, 11:10:59 am »
I do apologise, I've tried to quote Dandelionwine :-whistle but mucked up :-LOVE

DandelionWine

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #326 on: April 23, 2015, 02:05:45 pm »
I do apologise, I've tried to quote Dandelionwine :-whistle but mucked up :-LOVE

No need to apologize Mel, it's a bit of a challenge sometimes!  To actually quote just a part of someone's post you'd need to click on the quote symbol on their post, which will quote the entire post, then highlight and delete the parts you don't want to include on your post!  Bit of a pain, but it's effective enough once you get the hang of it.

I read what that link took me to, and it's interesting, and possibly or even probably absolutely correct, but not possible for us to check on really, and I'm just not feeling the urge to research the person doing the research (yeah, lazy me!). In the case of the Alpha and Omega series, it sort of fits in and I'm willing to go along with it or at least allow for the possibility.  Anna IS on the 'outside' of the pack structure, and protected by the higher ups, but also by pack magic, which we can't study or confirm since few if any of us have access to either a real wolf pack to study let alone a pack Patty's of weres to study! 

(still saying that Anna just doesn't have any desire, or the drive or need to become an Alpha though! ;) )
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Holo

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #327 on: June 09, 2015, 07:02:05 pm »
I've always wondered why Bran allows this sexism in werewolf society to persist. I mean, he saw what happened to Anna, and I'm sure he's seen worse. He even has difficulty finding a suitable pack for the 13-year-old Kara because he doesn't trust more than half his alphas to not abuse/rape a young girl. More so that some werewolves who hunt down and kill a child molester, I feel that he should be telling his wolves to treat their female packmates with respect or deal with Charles.
When it is clear that female werewolves can be just as dominant as males, this system of giving them bottom rank in the pack just doesn't make sense. What is worse is that the narrative implies this is the natural way of things, as female werewolves draw their power from their male counterparts but not vice versa. Anna has relied on Charles' dominant power multiple times to get herself out of sticky situations. But never has Charles drawn from her omega power.

pondhawk

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #328 on: June 09, 2015, 08:00:19 pm »
Charles relies on Anna's Omega magic to help him keep an even keel. And the narrative does not imply that the sexism is normal. Why do you think the heroines are commenting on it frequently in their internal dialogues? Over the arc of a long-running series like this, the author has the opportunity to explore ways that unjust systems can be recognized, challenged, and changed over time. To have that happen in one book would be completely unrealistic and not nearly as interesting as exploring the implications and options throughout the course of the series. Look at all the societies which have non-discrimination laws on the books, and show me one where those laws are not routinely broken. Even if he were so inclined, Bran is not naive enough to make a law until he has some confidence that he won't have to ask Charles to kill more than half his alphas for breaking it.

Prince of Pain

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Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
« Reply #329 on: July 27, 2015, 05:36:32 pm »
Females make up what 10% of the population... maybe less.  Males make up the other 80-90% and that's not likely to change in the short term (in any reasonable non-young wolf's mind), as the wolves have been working on the problem for millenium giving it their best efforts.  So its not like the females can say stop muzzling half your population!!!  But the males can say females are a precious and vanishing resource if we kill them off they won't suddenly start reappearing!

And while the women can be just as dominant as the males, they can't fight in their weight class against equally dominant males.  Its been commented on repeatedly that the women aren't as physically large as the males and thus 'most' dominance challenges (which are based on dominance and sheer unadulterated muscle power) would end with the female wolf dead.  See again the vanishing recourse.

Finally a two fold impact.  One Bran is the Merrok of a werewolves who choose their leaders by challenges (often to the death) and if even a significant fraction of his alphas and top dominant wolves in the packs are are strongly against something he 'imposes' on them from the top, then this isn't like in a democracy.  They'll challenge him and keep on challenging him until he's purged all such thinking from his packs or he's dead and an anti-feminist of the first rank takes over, thus leading us to our second problem either the women will feel a back lash like you wouldn't believe or the werewolves in america will have lost such strength in their individually best wolves as well as damaged pack cohesion to the breaking point, that they'd be ripe for an attack by say... the Fae (specifically certain grey lords) or the vampires or any other rogue group, like witches that moved against them.  Causing casualties that could be terrible.

Can they really afford to destabilize the entire organization over a point of principle that many would not believe in, when it could cause countless casualties and maybe even the subjugation of the american packs?  I'd think that a lot of people who do believe in the equal right to get yourself killed in a pack challenge, might reluctantly agree with the females should be protected group and keep the laws that have worked for millenium (if poorly or without enough liberty), if only to keep everyone from being killed.   Its the whole question of, do I risk the death of 10-30% of my pack (if we win or 70%+ if we losee) over the (enhanced) rights of 10-20%?  At that point you'll find many leaving behind the principle and embracing the practical.

That said as long as there is the free movement of individuals between the packs (or at least the option if you want it bad enough and are willing to burn a few bridges along the way) then you actually have what the founding fathers of the united states started with.  States rights.  If you don't like the state you're in, go to another state with different laws or rules or atmosphere.  And in this case state=pack.  But I'd think that if literally no pack out there felt the way you do, then that says something about what you want.  Add in the fact that new packs can be formed... say on an island for instance (if you didn't want to start off picking a fight and killing a bunch of other werewolves in order to start your organization off the ground) that again, if no women or male led packs are out there trying to do this (including you the agitator).  Then that also says something about the atmosphere and I'd argue the constituency you represent.

If enough females wanted a different kind of pack.  You can't tell me that they couldn't go out and get it, even if they had to found one themselves.  Even at 10% there are enough females, to forget about potential doting, loving or just plain principled mates along side a big fraction of them, to make a go of it if they really wanted it.

That it hasn't been, to this point (despite an ever increasing non-pre-sufferage era population and thus increasing non-pre-sufferage alpha's and females).  Maybe because of killing pack alphas but equally or more likely because of outside forces such as the Fae or Vampires, who would attack them.

All that said I fully expect to start seeing some kind of social changes in the books as they go along.  But probably not a sweeping top down dictatorial proclamation but rather a ground level swell that will be recognized and codified (with some limitations imposed at the Alpha and Marrock level) such as say.  Females who wish to join the dominance challenges must formally remove themselves from the protected female status.  They must give at least a month's notice (so that they're not staying protected until a dominant wolf is injured and then jump him from the proverbial dark with a knife in hand) and if they have a mate the mate must be in full agreement with her decision.  And I'm not sure how it would work with dominance deaths.  I mean you killed my mate must be bad enough when a physically weaker female see's her bigger male mate die.  What would happen if the female died and the male went berserk.  Hardly a fair fight if the Alpha or other dominant wolf just fought off his now dead mate.  Maybe the mate gets to watch over live camera feed but cant challenge the wolf who killed his mate for a week or so in order to let the other wolf heal up?

Lots of implications that you 'could' try to sweep away with dictatorial dictates from above.  But which if you didn't account for would cause disaffection in large segments of the population.  From my mate died because of your laws Marrock.  Die!  To I just lost a quarter of my pack because of your changes in our working fine traditional rules Marrock.  Die! Die! Die! etc.




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A: Get yourself turned into a werewolf and go back to rip their freaking heads off.

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