Author Topic: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military  (Read 74066 times)

Patti L.

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #120 on: October 21, 2010, 07:56:34 am »
In nature there are plenty of species where the female is larger or in charge of the family.  Shoot, stallions protect the herd, but there's a 'lead' mare who decides things like changes of grazing, when they go to water, which way to run from predators.
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little gray wolf

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #121 on: October 21, 2010, 10:48:36 am »
I know this is kinda random, but it fits in with the whole woman dominance issue, some ancient civilizations were actualy ruled by women.
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Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #122 on: October 21, 2010, 02:43:01 pm »
 >D
They're all ruled by women.  Many of them are more circumspect about letting the men KNOW that they're in charge, though.  a la Charles and Anna... or Mercy and Adam... Who gets the Alpha to do what she wants, even when he doesn't want to do it?  his mate. 


If I had to guess, I would guess that Pack magic is influenced by the conventions held by the wolves.  For instance, Sam says Mercy is his Pack (which is how he borrowed energy from her) and when she protests that Pack magic doesn't work like that, he says that there has been Pack much longer than there have been ceremonies.  I don't think most of the younger wolves could have done without the ceremony, because they don't know that it could be done without the ceremony. 
Similarly, the wolves have all been taught that the flow of power is one way... maybe it doesn't have to work that way, but it can't work the other way without them collectively believing that it should. 

Kkat07

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2010, 04:40:52 pm »
That makes sense.  I'm going to copy that post over to the thread about female pack members if you don't mind.  It applies there as well. 
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Jabulani

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #124 on: November 05, 2010, 11:30:25 pm »
Well, so he can move up in rank...isn't that how it works? you kill or beat a dominant wolf and you get their position. And why not Ben? We already know Adam, Darryl and Warren could do it no real drama there! :) Of course, Adam being weak and previously injured made that action packed BUT! if he had been 100%...there would have been no big fight, right?  I thought the fight between Paul and Mary Jo was GREAT!  And I have to say I appreciated the fact that he didn't want to hurt her. I love it when Patti goes into detail about how the pack works together, the heirachy and all that....I find it very interesting.

Hi there. I absolutely agree with you re. Patty's generous descriptions of pack dynamics. As for the way that Adam kept his alpha spot, I suspect that at least some of an alpha's position probably depends on the pack's will - I mean, if a pack didn't want a specific alpha, because of his cruelty or whatever, I could envisage the whole pack coming together to depose their alpha.
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Patti L.

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2010, 04:32:58 am »
It sure should work that way, but since they're human at the base, it often doesn't seem to work that way, and I can give you two specific examples; Leo in Chicago, and Jean Chastel in Europe.
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Ellyll

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2010, 09:10:56 am »
But those are special, and quite different, cases.  Jean Chastel was like the anti-Bran: a very old, very powerful werewolf who could dominate or kill pretty much anyone around him, only Chastel was evil. 

Leo seems to have been a good pack leader/Alpha before his mate went crazy.  That probably bought him a lot of pack support, which wouldn't vanish right away.  And when things got to be that bad, he'd loaded his pack with the crazies, so I expect the pack couldn't reach a proper consensus to fight against him, or even to leave, or in any way withhold support.
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Patti L.

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2010, 09:17:58 am »
Can anyone say "Hitler" or "Suddan Hussain"?  Same idea; if enough of them had clubbed together to bring the rabid man or werewolf down, it would have happened.  The problem is that it turns into mob rule like that.  Not easy to figure out.
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little gray wolf

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #128 on: November 09, 2010, 06:00:10 pm »
good speakers/dominant folks= many followers
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Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #129 on: November 10, 2010, 08:58:31 am »
Charisma.  As in, "I don't think charisma is necessarily a good thing.  Hitler had apparently had a lot of charisma."

Victorymon

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #130 on: November 10, 2010, 09:08:22 am »
so what makes a good leader? or whats the difference between an officer and a normal soldier?
for what I know they got charisma, the ability to lead people and they are really smart/brave
one example is something my friend from the german Bundeswehr told me... he is an officer

on the first morning there were 30 guys, ready to make a test to be a officer. so their training-officer came, he said hello... and then he throwed a grenade at the recruits. over 20 of them jumped away within a second

the 10 guys left were able to get to the next test. everyone took a grenade, walked to a small wall (there was a slope behind the wall) and then they had to arm the grenade, then put it at the top of the small wall (somewhat over 1 meter high) and after three seconds they gave the grenade a little push

only 3 passed. and every one of them is an officer now, after a long training time

I bet werewolves have harder tests  ;) but thats fiction
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Patti L.

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #131 on: November 10, 2010, 10:15:07 am »
My point was that with or without charisma, sometimes a lack of effective leadership or cohesive...maybe courage...plain, mean/evil people can dominate a lot of good people for far longer than you would think the good folk would tolerate it, and there are a lot of reasons, beginning with the lack of effective opposing leadership, and going on to the fact that either misguided good folk, or sadistic or power hungry bad ones will flock around the bad leader and protect him or her.  Usually it's a combination of all of them.

What makes an officer?  Several things, and many of them can't be tested for short of actual combat conditions (and not all officers are or should be combat leaders, IMO, so this is a fuzzy area; I'll stick to talking about combat for now.) so it's a tough call to try & figure it out. 
First, yes, personal physical courage; the ability to assess whether the danger is such that a retreat is the best option. 
Second, the ability to make that assessment for others, and weigh; 'can we afford to lose some of the fighters to make this win, or is it a waste of lives?'
Third, the ability to get others to accept those orders.  It doesn't have to be innate, but that helps...although as pointed out earlier,
Charisma.  As in, "I don't think charisma is necessarily a good thing.  Hitler had apparently had a lot of charisma."
this is not and should not be the only/main issue.
Fourth comes training, I suspect.  Obviously, a lot of people are or become leaders without any, so it really does come low on the list.  Any military person (or corporate manager) who got a field promotion, and kept it, proves this, I think.  Napoleon supposedly said that every soldier in his armies should metaphorically carry a marshal's baton in his backpack, meaning all of them should be prepared to lead if the chain of command broke down. 
Not everyone is built for it; some of us are indians, not chiefs.  Which is good, actually, because remember the trouble that can be caused by "Too many chiefs, and not enough Indians".
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Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #132 on: November 10, 2010, 03:23:30 pm »
Not everyone is built for it; some of us are indians, not chiefs.  Which is good, actually, because remember the trouble that can be caused by "Too many chiefs, and not enough Indians".

You're right that leadership takes many complex traits to make it work. And a person who is a good leader in certain situations, may not be an effective leader in all situations. 
And for the "Too many chiefs, not enough Indians," I am reminded of an anecdote from long ago, of a man whose daughter was applying to a prestigious college.  He was asked to write a letter including an answer to the question, "Is your son/daughter a good leader?"  and after some thought, he answered, "I do not know whether or not she is a good leader, but I know that she is an excellent follower."  The reply he received stated, "As our incoming class next year will include several hundred leaders, we congratulate ourselves that we can be assured of one good follower."

Hence the need for at least a few submissive wolves.  If EVERYONE finds it necessary to make waves, somebody's gonna drown. 

little gray wolf

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #133 on: November 14, 2010, 03:45:48 pm »
Nice quote Kyria. The subs also calm the dominants, which is always a good thing :)
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Marroksoul

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #134 on: May 10, 2011, 09:25:44 am »
I'm still on page 6 so I haven't read everyting but  doesn't  Mary Jo belong to the Alpha as an unmated female