Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military

[Patti L.]

So... Leah isn't naturally dominant, but pulled on - you know; this is actually Omega talk more than anything else.  I think I'll take it over there.

[ironkitten]

well it's omega at the moment but in relation to dominance and this thread has brought up some neat points to consider.

[Loleczka]

At the outset, I'm sorry for my English. Maybe you don't understand, but I have to ask this question.

Suppose that Adam children born to Mercy. Remember that this is only an assumption.
Such a child that grew to a certain time and then cease to grow old, right? At least so it was with Charles. Therefore, I am curious if the ruling hierarchy in the herd. Does the child would have the same hierarchy as its parents? Or have a small child would be compelled to fight for dominance?
 I'm just curious.

Loleczka.

P.S. I'm very sorry for my English.

[Patti L.]

I doubt the child would inherit high rank.  If he or she has the right personality, he or she might be alpha, but if they don't have the innate drive to lead, no.  Neither (most) human societies nor wolf ones assume genetic leadership as an absolute; after all not every child of a king or queen rules, and ALL the offspring of the alpha pair of wolves are in their pack, and not all of them become alphas.

[Kyria]

Real wolf pups are very submissive, and human children are expected to follow directions from the adults in their life.  I would guess that at least until puberty, children born as werewolves would have no real dominance in the Pack, but of course... if anybody does anything unpleasant to them, they have the parents to contend with.

Werewolf teenagers would then be a million times worse than human teenagers, as they transition not only from childhood to adulthood (and struggle for independence from their parents), but also from 'puppy' to having a rank in the Pack. 

[ironkitten]

oh that could get nasty really quick - makes me think of Warren perhaps as a teenage werewolf, and some idiot says something stupid and BANG! fist to face. - LMAO......sorry random thought.


I would think like Kyria that when they hit puberty or the end of it they would strike off on their own or stay put and fight for rank. I mean Charles is the offspring of Bran and he stayed put so go fig.

[Kyria]

I mean Charles is the offspring of Bran and he stayed put so go fig.

Charles is also one of the three most dominant wolves at least in the USA, and I didn't get the impression that any of the other alphas around the world rivaled him either...

But Charles is unique, because of his position as the Marrok's Executioner.  I don't know if, had things progressed differently, he might have become a powerful Alpha, if he might have gone lone wolf, or if he would have stayed with his father's pack anyway... but I don't see Charles as the Alpha type.  He separates himself from others too much.  That may be largely due to the 'don't make friends with someone you might one day have to kill' theory... but it may also be partly just his personality. 

[charmed]

He certainly has the protective instincts of an Alpha. He doesn't seem to have a desire to be Alpha of a Pack, even though he doesn't like being the Marrok's enforcer. He strikes me as too dominant to be a lone wolf.

I do think that even if he weren't Bran's enforcer, I think he would have become Bran's second. He is strong and as Angus put it, (I may have it muddled slightly) "a cold, rat bastard fighter". He would not settle for being low in the pack.

[little gray wolf]

But you know Sam went lone wolf and he's one rank below Charles.

[CarolKat]

Sam is dominant but he's a doctor and while he does what needs doing it doesn't rest well with him at all, and while technically he is a lone wolf he has Mercy, she is his pack. We'll see what happens with that one. 

[The Deposed King]

But you know Sam went lone wolf and he's one rank below Charles.

He was and could again be in the future 3rd in the Marrok's pack.  But as of right now has removed himself from that pack and started going crazy/lone wolf.  but technically as of right now while he still is as dominant as ever he's got no ranking.  That said i'm sure his rank would be instantly returned should he do anything as simple as show back up at the aspen creek pack and Bran nod's hello to his son.



The Deposed King

[The Deposed King]

Sam is dominant but he's a doctor and while he does what needs doing it doesn't rest well with him at all, and while technically he is a lone wolf he has Mercy, she is his pack. We'll see what happens with that one. 

Right well... He's not in an officially approved were-wolf pack or pack relationship.  And unofficially he's got something wrong inside and part of its manifested in a twisted form of a pack relationship to Mercy.  She's the alpha female of Adam's pack, and Samuel still considers her a pack member.  Yet he doesn't consider himself a part of Adam's pack which by the way is also as of now Mercy's pack.  Its unclear that he considers himself the superior pack member in his little pack of two, and still treats Mercy as if she's mostly out of the dominance game.  So either he's given her superior pack status in his mind or else he's still thinking of her on some level as he would a mate, where dominance stuff normally doesn't come into play as much.  Plus he clearly doesn't consider himself the Marrok, the marrok has two packs but Samuel doesn't so that doesn't apply.

IMO Samuel just needs a good woman to give his life some purpose.  The addition of a few kids and even if the woman went 6 feet under and he'd still have a purpose in life.  Hopefully the fae broad pans out for him.

A second thought.  Samuel could actually believe down to his core, what the official pack position is regarding females, basically that they are outside of pack dominance.  Maybe the reason he's not done more dominance stuff with Mercy is partly a near instinctual uber chauvanism?  Especially if he knows he's sick he might unconsciously say, here's your pedestal there you sit.  And ignores reality to the contrary while refusing to harm the one he's pedestalized.  Just a thought.





The Deposed King

[charmed]

Umm, females are not outside of pack ranking. Matied females have their mate's ranking and unmated females are at teh bottom, right along with the submissives.

As for Sam just needing a good wife and kids: Well, that's the problem, he had them and they died. Both Patty and Mercy have repeatedly said that his depression and obsession with Mercy as a mate have to do with those facts so clearly it's not as simple as Sam finding a little woman and having a passel of kids.

[The Deposed King]

Umm, females are not outside of pack ranking. Matied females have their mate's ranking and unmated females are at teh bottom, right along with the submissives.

As for Sam just needing a good wife and kids: Well, that's the problem, he had them and they died. Both Patty and Mercy have repeatedly said that his depression and obsession with Mercy as a mate have to do with those facts so clearly it's not as simple as Sam finding a little woman and having a passel of kids.

I must beg to differ with you.  As it regards 'Dominance' pack females are officially outside of pack dominance issues.  You are entirely correct about pack 'Ranking', they are ranked with their mates or stuck firmly at the bottom of the heirarchy.  But dominance and ranking have been repeatedly shown to be two separate albeit related issues.

As far as finding a little woman and getting kids being a simple solution.  I agree its not.  However I contend that without at the very least a little woman entering his life Samuel is as good as dead in the mid-term.  Sure having a little woman and kidlets around would increase the risks to the stablility of a healthy Samuel should anything happen to them as did with his previous mates.  Even if its as simple as them dying of old age and leaving him alone and lonely.  But do we honestly believe this unhealthy samuel of today is likely to find a reason to stabilize himself and go on living if something in his life doesn't significantly change?  Mercy is clearly not enough keep him stable all by her lonesome.

So I contend that with increased exposure could come increased stability for Samuel.  I don't currently see an alternative way of stabilizing him from his suicidal self, and given his chauvenistic personality, the return of a former fae woman he's had feelings for (thus bypassing his refusal to form 'new' relationships that might hurt him or others around him) and I might add a women he cares about who is in need of some help and protection (dominant wolf instincts unavoidably kicking in anyone) combined with the fact that this one isn't able to just up and die on him from old age...  I think a little woman in his life might be just what the doctor ordered.



The Deposed King

[Ellyll]

TDK - "little woman" - really?   

I must beg to differ with you.  As it regards 'Dominance' pack females are officially outside of pack dominance issues. 

Not anymore.  Events in Silver Borne have changed that, don't you think?