Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military

[spencerharper]

When you're looking at the pack page here it shows the order of the pack is
Bran, Leah
Charles, Anna
Asil
Sage
Is it in a random order or is Asil actually 3rd in the pack? And if he is, is Sage 4th (probably not)?

[CarolKat]

When you're looking at the pack page here it shows the order of the pack is
Bran, Leah
Charles, Anna
Asil
Sage
Is it in a random order or is Asil actually 3rd in the pack? And if he is, is Sage 4th (probably not)?

Bran's Pack top 4 are
Bran, Leah
Charles, Anna
Samuel, (Ariana?)
Adam, Mercy

[Elle]

Other than the Bran/Leah, Charles/Anna pairings the others are random, only because we haven't met all the members of Bran's pack. Asil, I think should be the Marrok's pack 3rd because he's so powerful but that's not anything official.

CK, I'm not sure why you have Sam and Adam/Mercy there?

I'm not sure where Sage would fit in the scheme of things, she is more dominate than Leah. That has to be frustrating for her with the extra power boost Leah gets from being Bran's mate.

[CarolKat]

Elle, I was thinking of Moon Called when Mercy went down the Top 5 of the Pack that her stepfather made her memorize. Or was that only for the Alphas?

[Kyria]

It was top five wolves in North America - not just alphas, but overall, because if I remember right, Sam and Charles were both on the list and neither is Alpha; but Adam was right behind them, and he's not in Bran's Pack, although he is one of Bran's wolves - one of his Alphas.  Does that make sense? 

[The Deposed King]

It was top five wolves in North America - not just alphas, but overall, because if I remember right, Sam and Charles were both on the list and neither is Alpha; but Adam was right behind them, and he's not in Bran's Pack, although he is one of Bran's wolves - one of his Alphas.  Does that make sense?

When I think of the power structure of the werewolves in north america I use a feudal template to keep track.

In a feudal kingdom you have the King and his heirs ruling the premier and most powerful area, call them Duchies.  The King controls the most powerful duchy.  So the heir to the most powerful duchy should inherit control of that duchy as well as control of the kingdom as a whole.  But remember the most powerful duchy is still a duchy among duchies.  If one of the dukes over throws the current order of things then his duchy becomes the most powerful and he's now king.

Which is my way of saying, the ranking order for the most powerful were's in North Americas Were Kingdom are: King Bran followed Princes Charles and Samuel, followed by Duke Adam and Duke etc, etc, etc.

Not a perfect fit, but if you know about how feudal kingdom's work it gives you a decent template to keep track of things.

Also with Bran.  I tend to think of his as basically having two packs.  The first is his Aspen Creek Pack with all the normal werewolves, Second is his North American Alpha Pack.  He can in theory draw upon the power of both his regular pack and every alpha in north america.  But I think that as has been shown with the mate bond versus the pack bond, Pack Magic has different types of magic bonds available between were-wolves, so I'm unsure if the bond the Marrok has with his pack are different from the the bond he has with his Alpha's.




The Deposed King

[Patti L.]

Not a bad analogy; as in the Miles Vorkosigan books; Emperor Gregor is also Count Vorbarra, with a Count's vote as well as the Imperial vote.

[ironkitten]

I like that analogy and it does seem to fit. I know Samuel isn't technically an Alpha and is officially lone wolf I don't think Bran thinks of it that way. I like that feudal thing - that makes sense too.

[crazedcrusader]

Hi, all. Kind of new to the boards, and I've been thinking a lot about this question lately - I posted it in 'Ask Patty' but I'd like to get ya'll's thoughts on the subject, if I can:

Mated females take their rank in the pack hierarchy from their mates - unless it's a female Omega like Anna, who's outside of the pack hierarchy. Charles stays as Bran's Second, she lives happily outside of the whole thing ruffling fur and arranging them to her satisfaction, and all is well.

But what about male Omegas like the one from Hunting Ground? What happens if he takes a mate? Does she live happily outside of the hierarchy with him, or is she still stuck down on the bottom as if she weren't mated?

Since this thread addresses dominance questions I thought it would be the right place to ask. Apologies if I'm wrong!

Also - since things are done differently in Europe, do you think that a wolf like Ben, being forced to move from England to America, would have trouble adjusting to a whole new set of rules, and thus have trouble settling in with the pack? It seems like it would be difficult - maybe less so for a young wolf like Ben than it would be for an older wolf, since we know they have trouble dealing with changes, but I would think even someone Ben's age would find it challenging.

[Janilee]

Hmmmm... That may have been part of why they required Ben to memorize the rules before being allowed to join the pack. As he says in the discussion of Mary Jo's dominance claims in Silver Bourne.

[The Deposed King]

Hi, all. Kind of new to the boards, and I've been thinking a lot about this question lately - I posted it in 'Ask Patty' but I'd like to get ya'll's thoughts on the subject, if I can:

Mated females take their rank in the pack hierarchy from their mates - unless it's a female Omega like Anna, who's outside of the pack hierarchy. Charles stays as Bran's Second, she lives happily outside of the whole thing ruffling fur and arranging them to her satisfaction, and all is well.

But what about male Omegas like the one from Hunting Ground? What happens if he takes a mate? Does she live happily outside of the hierarchy with him, or is she still stuck down on the bottom as if she weren't mated?

Since this thread addresses dominance questions I thought it would be the right place to ask. Apologies if I'm wrong!

Also - since things are done differently in Europe, do you think that a wolf like Ben, being forced to move from England to America, would have trouble adjusting to a whole new set of rules, and thus have trouble settling in with the pack? It seems like it would be difficult - maybe less so for a young wolf like Ben than it would be for an older wolf, since we know they have trouble dealing with changes, but I would think even someone Ben's age would find it challenging.

I think that in north america a female mate of an omega would likely have a rough go of it.  To wit, she'd be outside pack dominance stuff... which most females already are in a legal sense.  But as has been shown with Anna she can draw upon Charles's dominance at times.  So I'd say the female mate would have to avoid the temptation to miss use her mate's powers.  She'd have to use the omega powers only for good.  Or else seriously torque off her mate.  And as has been shown, omega's can reduce the... urge for dominance among wolves but its range specific, and as such if you use it on one wolf before the other further out in teh room chaos could ensue.

As far as europe.  I think its clear that the europeans have a hazy idea of just what an omega is.  Likely none of their members have actually had any extended contact with another omega, and anna is the first example of an omega whose pack has some idea about what an omega really is.

But as far as the euro guy taking a mate....  well I'd say she'd be outside pack heirarchy just like him.  Now the euro's had him kind of as a super special submissive, to wit at the bottom of the pack ranking.  But I think as was shown in the last alpha and omega book he has plans to change this view of his omega-ness.  So likely she'd be in a sort of nebulous authority ranking somewhere around beta.  Uber-zen Alpha or not an Omega simply doesn't want to compete in ranking and dominance fights and in my mind would only engage in somthing like that for the good of the pack.  Since Omega's want to make the other wolves happy and since most dominant wolves are happiest when they are in charge....  The Omega is going to let the Alpha and Beta and so on and so forth be in charge unless they are clearly taking the pack down a dead wrong direction.  In which case I think the omega could zonk anyone but a dominant alpha into line.


The Deposed King

[ironkitten]

oh that is a good twist too - I didn't think of an omega male mate. That would be an interesting theory. A good thought process there. That would be a little weird to get used to too, I would think as the female trying to get used to those feelings and then they wouldn't have that power naturally. Although it could go that the power just soothes the female and doesn't spread to the others around her when the omega is not there either though. Anyway that is a very interesting thought.......hmmmmm

[CarolKat]

In which case I think the omega could zonk anyone but a dominant alpha into line.
The Deposed King

 I think an Omega can "Zonk" even the most dominant alpha, Remember Anna did calm the beserker(Bran).  An Omega brings peace to the wolf. The only time this could be an issue is when the dominant really needs to be in control of a situation Like when Anna was calming the Alphas in the restaurant and Charles sent her out. This is part of what needs to be controlled so that dominance can handle what it needs to without interference from the Omega.

[The Deposed King]

In which case I think the omega could zonk anyone but a dominant alpha into line.
The Deposed King

 I think an Omega can "Zonk" even the most dominant alpha, Remember Anna did calm the beserker(Bran).  An Omega brings peace to the wolf. The only time this could be an issue is when the dominant really needs to be in control of a situation Like when Anna was calming the Alphas in the restaurant and Charles sent her out. This is part of what needs to be controlled so that dominance can handle what it needs to without interference from the Omega.

I'm not disputing that an Omega can forcibly bring peace to the wolf.  I guess my point is that dominant's don't become dominant because the wolf is strong and the human side is a push over.  Just because you zonk some dominant alpha's wolf side, doesn't mean that the human side isn't in total agreement with its wolf on the current subject at hand.  It'd be like taking away all the emotional pleasure of a bad action, but leaving the intellect still determined to carry out a now much more distasteful task. 

I think that with less dominant wolves being 'zonked' would take all or most of the wind out of their sails and the Omega could step right in and push them back onto the path of reasonable behaviors.  But I think that with many Beta's and most Alpha wolves, zonking the wolf side would still leave the human side with the potential determination to keep on trucking.  The force of the human side personality might demand action even if the wolf side has been put on a sort of happy catnip hour.



The Deposed King

[Varg]

>znip<...The force of the human side personality might demand action even if the wolf side has been put on a sort of happy catnip hour.



The Deposed King

I like your imagery!

Also I agree.