Author Topic: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military  (Read 74068 times)

saberhack

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2008, 11:27:13 am »
Hi all thanks for the typo fix, :) spelling and I were never good friend also my wifes cat keeps moving the keys while i am not looking.  i am gonna get that cat one day.

thank you all for replying to the posts, now for the counter points  :)

you asked why they would be moved in to one unit, on a whole i could see it done because of the general fear of the humans to some thigh they don't understand, the military being the military i am not seeing a don't ask don't tell fitting this group.

gryphon340

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2008, 01:46:56 pm »
Rangers, always remeber respect the rank, not the man
life is terminal

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wolverine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2010, 12:24:23 pm »
I know we can't make Patti write what we want but.....

I'd like to see Ben kicks Paul's butt! first he challenges Warren and then Adam! ICK. :)

Ellyll

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 12:44:51 pm »
Since Ben is one of the least dominant wolves in the pack, that seems unlikely.  Why Ben?
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wolverine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2010, 12:50:40 pm »
Well, so he can move up in rank...isn't that how it works? you kill or beat a dominant wolf and you get their position. And why not Ben? We already know Adam, Darryl and Warren could do it no real drama there! :) Of course, Adam being weak and previously injured made that action packed BUT! if he had been 100%...there would have been no big fight, right?  I thought the fight between Paul and Mary Jo was GREAT!  And I have to say I appreciated the fact that he didn't want to hurt her. I love it when Patti goes into detail about how the pack works together, the heirachy and all that....I find it very interesting.

I have an oddball question:  What happens to the mate of a defeated wolf? where does she go?
and if the unmated females belong to Adam...what EXACTLY does that mean? Does he play the role of dad or what???

ladylynx

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2010, 12:55:15 pm »
That's is a good question. I hadn't thought of that.

Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2010, 01:12:25 pm »
Am I the only Ben lover here? I think he could be a great character to develop more.  I see changes in him already! he saved Medea!!!!!
:D No, I love him too. I definitely have a soft spot for him. Warren too.

Well, since Samuel has now been claimed (*sigh*... OK I want him to live happily ever after with a wonderful woman and so on)... Ben's the next most lovable single man in the pack.   He just keeps growing on me.  

wolverine- What I've understood is that yes, in order to move up in the pack, a wolf has to challenge and beat a higher-ranking wolf.  However, somewhere it was noted that within a well-run pack, the hierarchy is fairly stable... that weres can usually tell who is higher or lower ranking, so there is a little bit of jockeying with a new member of the pack until they find a position, and then they mostly don't change.  
According to Mercy in either MC or BB, Warren isn't very good at giving the types of non-verbal cues that signal dominance to other wolves, and he holds the Third position because Adam says so, probably influencing Paul's decision to challenge him; Henry convinced him that with Adam injured, he might be able to win a confrontation... and Paul is apparently not too bright if he thought that, even if he managed to kill Adam, he would survive the retaliation of Darryl and Warren, when Warren beat the crap out of him once already.  
So, as much as I would love to see Ben beat Paul to a bloody pulp, it seems that Ben accepts his standing in the pack hierarchy and, as he is so low ranking, it would be supremely idiotic for him to challenge Paul.  Paul may have been unwilling to kill Mary Jo - a woman - but I'm not so sure the same extends to Ben.  

wolverine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 01:21:32 pm »
That is a good point. However, as Charles said to Anna in Cry Wolf.  All wolves are aggressive more or less or they wouldn't be able to handle the change, right? And that is why the submissives are so valuable because they don't want to compete. That makes me wonder they can't all be happy with their standing all the time some have to be waiting for their chance to move up....that's kinda the point isn't it? who wants to be on the bottom of anything? Am I making sense? I"m typing at work and having to be very quick and sneaky! LOL 

Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2010, 01:30:57 pm »
Yes but in order to move up it has to be a sanctioned fight; approved by the Alpha.  Ben might want to move up, but besides understanding where he stands in the pack order, he would have to pass it through Adam to get a fight with Paul, and I don't think Adam would let Ben risk himself that way... I think Ben has been growing on Adam, too, besides the Alpha's need to protect lower ranking wolves. 

And he would have to be ranked within three males of Paul's standing (Ben's the one who quotes this rule).  I don't remember how many wolves are in Adam's pack, but is somewhere in the 20 to 30 range at least.  Lets take 20 for demonstration purposes.  Three are women, lets take them out of the ranking.  That leaves 17.  There is one male, Peter the submissive, ranked below Ben.  That puts Ben at #16.  Paul was able to challenge Adam, so he's ranked 4th, MAYBE 5th if we want to stretch the rules.  That still leaves 10 ranks between... and I'm pretty sure there's more than 20 wolves in Adam's pack. 

So Ben wouldn't be allowed to challenge Paul. 

Patti L.

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2010, 01:33:09 pm »
It's not all about fighting skill; some of it is about force of personality.  I think that, due to the issues Ben brings with him, that we glimpsed in Iron Kissed, he doesn't have the mental dominance he would need to be a high ranked wolf.

Good analysis of the rules, Kyria!
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wolverine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2010, 01:41:12 pm »
I'll be honest.  I can't keep up with all the details...I just know what I feel.  And I want Ben ranked higher! LOLOLOL

skipaliforus

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2010, 01:44:22 pm »
so far as i know the pack has 30 ppl in it, was 31 with mercy then Henry left so back to 30.

Rank to the best of my knowledge is Adam + Mercy, Darrel + Arielle, Warren, Paul, George, Mary Jo, Alec,lots of ? marks. Then at the end, Ben then, Peter + Honey.
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wolverine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2010, 01:46:49 pm »
But Ben has to be important somehow....we read about him alot...Patty has to have a bigger plan for him! PLEASE PATTY I'M BEGGING! lol

I'd be satisfied if he met a nice female wolf, I guess  O)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 01:50:32 pm by wolverine »

Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2010, 01:50:56 pm »
aw, as much as I'd love it if he were higher up... SOMEBODY has to be ranked at the bottom.  and it makes for a more realistic cast, if not every one of the main characters is the top 5 of the pack.  

Besides, I think it would ruin Ben, if he had a higher rank.  He would lose his vulnerability and without that, I wouldn't like him much.  Remember how he was a jerk in the beginning before we found out that he was deeper than that?  Imagine that plus the "I'm a very dominant wolf and you WILL do as I say" attitude.  I shudder to think.  

Skipaliforus, thank you for clarifying pack ranks.  That looks correct to me. 

Patti L.

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2010, 01:53:00 pm »
You do realize he's basically brought in as someone Adam wants to keep his eye on - I half wonder if Bran is trying Adam out as someone who can take over the job of shaking up/retraining 'problem' wolves so they can go into 'normal' packs, instead of having to do it himself - and that's why we keep seeing him.  Of the 30 wolves in the pack, we've seen only about 40 percent.  

Adam, Darryl & Arielle, Warren, Paul, George, Mary Jo, Alec, lots of ? marks. Then at the end, Ben then, Peter & Honey.
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