Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military

[Shipa]

In one of the first books (Blood Bound, I think), Ben mentions that if it weren't for the two submissive wolves in the pack, he would be at the bottom. Did he mean Peter and Honey? I always thought that Adam's pack had another submissive wolf, since Honey is not a submissive wolf.

Actual dominance ranking:
Adam + Mercy, Darryl + Auriele, Warren (+ Kyle), Honey, Paul, Henry, Mary Jo, Alec, ...... Ben, Peter.

At the end of Silver Borne, Honey seemed worried that she might get caught in dominance fights--what are the chances?

[Addicted Gamer]

In one of the first books (Blood Bound, I think), Ben mentions that if it weren't for the two submissive wolves in the pack, he would be at the bottom. Did he mean Peter and Honey? I always thought that Adam's pack had another submissive wolf, since Honey is not a submissive wolf.

Actual dominance ranking:
Adam + Mercy, Darryl + Auriele, Warren (+ Kyle), Honey, Paul, Henry, Mary Jo, Alec, ...... Ben, Peter.

At the end of Silver Borne, Honey seemed worried that she might get caught in dominance fights--what are the chances?

That's what I also thought, as I have always placed Honey at the top, even though Peter is submissive.
But being submissive is not always weak, it's just that they never feel the need to fight for dominance.
Of course this would make them targets for ugly bullies =____=

And yeah, even though the pack has been healed for the most part, the stupid people (besides that upstart Henry) are still
at large.

[Kyria]

There was a comment in the SB spoilers thread about the fact that the submissives count has changed, and that Ben might have been counting Mary Jo or Honey as a submissive (Mary Jo as an unmated female, Honey as a submissive's mate), but
1. I wouldn't see Ben counting one or the other, but not both, and that leaves us with three submissives.
2. In Silver Borne Ben refers to Mary Jo as more dominant than him, so even in Ben's mind, rank and dominance are separate in the case of females. 

[Shipa]

It seems from Mary Jo and Alec's conversation during the alpha challenge that wolves instinctively have a sense of who is dominant regardless of their gender. The same reason I think Ben has always been aware that all three women in the Pack are more dominant than him even though by the official rules Mary Jo is an unmated female and thus at the bottom of the Pack hierarchy and Honey, being Peter's mate is also at the bottom.

I'm not saying that being a dominant/submissive is better or worse. My theory is that there has to be another submissive wolf (like Peter) in Adam's Pack that we haven't met yet.

[Addicted Gamer]

It seems from Mary Jo and Alec's conversation during the alpha challenge that wolves instinctively have a sense of who is dominant regardless of their gender. The same reason I think Ben has always been aware that all three women in the Pack are more dominant than him even though by the official rules Mary Jo is an unmated female and thus at the bottom of the Pack hierarchy and Honey, being Peter's mate is also at the bottom.

I'm not saying that being a dominant/submissive is better or worse. My theory is that there has to be another submissive wolf (like Peter) in Adam's Pack that we haven't met yet.

I hope so too >__<

[Kyria]

So I had this idea when thinking about and discussing Sam (that being Samuel's wolf)  and how much better behaved he is than say, Bran's wolf. 
We talk a lot about dominance when it comes to wolves, but obviously, there are a lot more dimensions than that.  In this case, I had the idea to plot dominance as a "y-axis" as it seems natural to visualize dominance on a vertical scale.  On the "x-axis" we then have a measure of how crazy the wolf is when in control. 



Most wolves, Mercy says, are more-or-less dominant.  So most wolves who survive the Change are in the upper right hand quadrant, with alphas and Charles and Sam at the top and Bran as the upper right hand corner (At least for American wolves).

Submissive wolves exist in the lower right hand corner (Although perhaps they actually belong in the lower left, now that I think about it.  I would have to see some with the wolf in control to know).

Omegas take up the upper left.  Note: I don't know exactly where to put Rick and Anna.  I don't think there are enough omegas out there to really decipher the spectrum of "omega-ness," and being omega makes it hard also to assess dominance.  But to the left of the line is the "zen zone," either way, and if they were below the x-axis in submissive territory I don't think they would be inclined to refuse orders from the other wolves.

My theory is that the anyone whose wolf would be in the fourth quadrant, would not survive the Change.

If we look at this on an algebraic scale, the +,+ wolves have a need to protect any wolf who falls into a quadrant that has at least one negative.

If I could, I would plot another dimension, related to the human's control... all wolves with a negative "z-axis" value have to be killed for the safety of others, but in the positives you seemingly have a pretty good range.

[ArtAngel]

Interesting! You put a lot of thought into it Kyria!

[jackie]

I think you've got the X axis not quite right.  I think what you are trying to measure is not Beserker - Omega, but Monsterness and Calm of the wolf.  Charles' Brother wolf is actually more towards middle of the x axis, and Sam is even further into the calm as well.  You are right about needing a z axis for human control of the wolf.   I think figuring out how Dr Wallace fits in would actually tell you how well this is working, and what needs to change to get the model to work well.  I wonder if Patty has used something like this to think about werewolf charactaristics?

[Kyria]

Thanks
  I briefly considered setting up a diorama type graph for the 3D "control" dimension I wanted to add
but I am NOT that ambitious.  
I like your labels, jackie.  I couldn't think of the words I wanted, so I used Berserker-Omega, knowing it wasn't quite what I wanted. 
Remember that I am suggesting that my x-axis 0 point is the break between omegas and regular dominant wolves... can't move Sam too much left, because he's definitely not Omega. 
See I think Brother Wolf isn't any more calm than average.  Remember how Charles starts to go crazy when Anna leaves and he's injured?  Charles and Brother Wolf have a special relationship in the Control category, but left completely to his own devices I think Brother Wolf would go crazy.  Hmmm... maybe move him to just left of Warren? 

[YuleRule]

See, the problem with Charles is that his Brother wolf is just too different. He can actually talk with his wolf, and that Charles going crazy when Anna leaves and he's injured is due to his unusual reaction to silver, not his wolf. I wish you could also put a 4th dimension, intelligence of wolf. (Well, it seems to be related to time. Bran's wolf is mentioned as cunning, (before going into berserker mode) Sam's is definitely intelligent (to some extent) and Charles's wolf is also smart. And they are all old wolves. Maybe "smart wolf" gene?)

[Patti L.]

What do you suppose Asil's wolf's intelligence is like?  He's the next oldest wolf we know of, but we haven't seen enough of him in either form to have any idea what his wolf is like.

[Pheodora]

Asil seems *scary* brilliant, and still not stable enough, nor for long enough, for me to feel comfortable or trusting of him. He has had such a long and tragic, even horrendous past, poor guy. But some wounds never heal, they just bleed less. I guess I see him in the far upper right corner...very very dominant, but seriously broken/wounded, and not capable of consistently performing at what should be his natural level, if that makes sense. 

Pheo

[The Deposed King]

Hi all first time poster and just finished the books.
and i was struck with some thoughts about the wolves in the military.
rank and dominance and how they would conflict

a bit of history, I spent 12 years in in the Army '92-'04, and most of them as a Military Police.
in the MP corps we have to deal with rank and authority all the time, where some stuffy officer tries to pull his rank on you the patrolman, it is one of the first things a new Private has to learn and get over. but at the end of the exchange they were both human.


wolves and the military,

Branches:
Navy/Marines: no wolves in these branches, to much water and time on ships.
Army: perfered
Air Force: possible but what self respecting wolf would be in the AF... thats just silly

The majority of wolves i see as in the military are lone wolves. Now i don't see the military as being a great carrier path for a wolf, due to many factor. The first being training time and deployed time: there have been many time when i was in the field where looking at the full moon on guard duty. How would a moon called wolf cope, i have not seen them as being able to resist the call. and  if they change in the field well that could be bad, even if they didn't eat some on, the SGT of the Guard walks around and doesn't find one of his people they are gonna have a bad day once they are found, and if they are still not out of the closet well, the military takes it personal when one there guys is not guarding his brothers while they are sleeping. Also with the wolf natural need to dominate lesser, this can also lead to altercations, but i will talk about that in  min.

The military how would they act, well that is a big thoughts i believe the they would form a wolf company, take all the outed wolves and stick them in once central area, to either 1) be a show piece or 2) buried, in some back water post.

the Company: now here is where the wolf and the military really collide, if the army sets all the outed wolves in one company and tells them to play nice and sit and stay.
what would happen if the command is of lesser dominance than a subordinate, wooo that would chap some wolfs tail.
how would a bunch of lone wolves react to forced pack, and a weak alpha, but not have to ability to challenge for pack dominance, due to rank structure.

What to do with them, well that is grand question, will they pull them out as a show piece
" Look here is our tame wolf pack, see them sit  see them stay, good dog, there is nothing to be afraid of here."
that will not be a good thing for them
ok thats all for now,

discuss


EDIT: edited spelling in title, charmed, books mod

I think that dominance/rank with military wolves and their dissatisfaction would likely be as different from 'American' wolves as american wolves are different from 'European' wolves.

I think I'm making a hash of things.  Look at the females.  They are forced to accept lower dominance wolves as having higher rank than themselves their entire un-mated life and possibly into their mated life when they mate with low dominance males.  Sure there is discontent and shenanigans but on the whole they are functional.

What you would really need, if you had a low dominance commanding officer, is some high dominance sub-officers or seargents.  Put the troublesome bad eggs under a high dominance platoon leader.  So long as teh commanding officer had the respect of his subordinates (willing to face combat, not a pencil pushing beuracrat), and all or most of the wolves come from a military background before the turn, things could work out.  Ideally you'd have a high dominance commander.  High enough at least that wolves like Warren with Daryl as #2 or Aisl with Bran/Charles, could chose to be under him as an alpha.

'Maybe' a lower dominance alpha commander would be a disaster.  But for sure and certain if you had a high dominance alpha, you could organize everyone under according to military ranks and disregard alot of the the 'whose higher stuff' on a functional day to day basis.

Certainly like every other pack there'd be problems.  I'd just say don't throw mixed service were's into one big pack.  There human prejudices would ensure that were-wolf blood was soon spilled.  And their increadible healing powers would only make the confrontations more certain.



The Deposed King

[The Deposed King]

Well, so he can move up in rank...isn't that how it works? you kill or beat a dominant wolf and you get their position. And why not Ben? We already know Adam, Darryl and Warren could do it no real drama there! Of course, Adam being weak and previously injured made that action packed BUT! if he had been 100%...there would have been no big fight, right?  I thought the fight between Paul and Mary Jo was GREAT!  And I have to say I appreciated the fact that he didn't want to hurt her. I love it when Patti goes into detail about how the pack works together, the heirachy and all that....I find it very interesting.

I have an oddball question:  What happens to the mate of a defeated wolf? where does she go?
and if the unmated females belong to Adam...what EXACTLY does that mean? Does he play the role of dad or what???

Re: Mate of a defeated were-wolf.  Unless the were-wolf that was defeated is dead... I'd say the mate goes wherever the defeated were-wolf goes.  So if the defeated mate goes down in status so does teh female mate.  If the male mate is kicked out of the pack... that would be a kicker.  I expect she could break the mate bond and stay or keep the mate bond and leave with the exiled mate....

Now if the male mate was killed.  I'd expect that in a functional pack the female would probably leave for another pack.  In a disfunctional pack maybe Bran would have to step in and take a look at things.




The Deposed King

[ironkitten]

Ok, this has some spoilers in it but this would have a lot of black bars in it and it would look wierd. So just eaier to warn ya.I think the miltary is an interesting twist for the were's Maybe a special forces unit that moved where needed.


Onto the ranks and what not. My friend I was reading to we were talking - technically Paul was not in  a postion to challenge Adam, but Adam accepted - why? Because of the state of his pack from the "hole" that Mercy had left, her not being his mate when he declared here made a mess of the pack and Adam needed to start reapplying his authority and show that he is still in charge. Also the part on Warren it is already known that the pack would not accept Warren as second, however, we know that Warren is more dominate than Daryl. Paul is within 3 ranks of the third's postion, but females don't get counted in the dominance fights, thus since they allowed Mary Jo to fight that scared Honey, because she would rank higher if she were male and if they start looking at where everyone (females included) then she would be in danger of dominance fights and could effectively out rank her husband. I don't see that happening though since I think the fight with Adam and Paul was a bit of a harsh thing and there were a lot of extenuating(sorry spelling there)  circumstances, I think again that Adam took Pauls challenge as a show for his pack that he was still in charge, accepted Mary Jo to challenge - since Adam and Mercy didn't decide if Mary Jo fought or not, but seeing Adam hurt and trying to make reparations and it did even things up for Adam with Paul without showing weakness that , Mar Jo was allowed to fight.
I also don't see Ben moving in rank anytime soon thanks to the after math of Mercy's rape and the whole - he has issues to deal with otherwise I could see Ben being higher up in the rank - not at the top mind you but maybe in the middle. But if you were trying to show what the weakest pack member is capable of vs the strongest I think that Ben  vs Adam is a good way to demonstrate it otherwise you or me as the reader wouldn't be able to gage the power or dominance as well. Look at Honey and her mate as well. In Alpha and Omega they explain the importance of those submissives in the pack. We gad Paul at 6 unless you counted females.

ETA: I added the spoiler bars, just to be safe. charmed, books mod