Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military

[wolverine]

You're right K.  And the fact that he is ranked low does make him vunerable....and Adam is good to him so I guess that is good enough for me.  If Mr. Adam was a mean Alpha like Leo....I'd have a real problem!

[wolverine]

Patti,

But hasn't Ben proven himself several times.  Adam even explains this to Mercy. 

[Patti L.]

That doesn't (to me) mean he doesn't still need some retraining.  That foul mouth of his, and his hate of women.  He (barring dominance fights) could live centuries; he needs to get over hating more than half the human race.  He doesn't have to turn into a gentleman, but he should be able to deal with women without the chance of being slapped, literally or with lawsuits.  Adam, with his values, might be the best person to do that.

[wolverine]

True! Adam is such a gentleman.  However, I guess I want to see Ben differently.  We know Ben was also abused when he was younger....so, once that was explained to us  I just assumed that his behavior was a way to "mask" all these things he's been carrying with him. I"m thinking maybe his anger of women is directed towards his mother??? Maybe he's mad about becoming a Were.  I totally understand the foul language talk....I don't like it either ( especially the *c* word he almost used) but just like in the real world, there are some people who don't always know how to say the right thing....but they do the right thing.  At this point, I would much rather keep company with Ben, who despite his foul language and attitude problems, is pretty straight forward.  I think Paul is way more snarky than Ben. It REALLY irked me he challenged Warren while he was hurt and then Adam! What a creep!

[Patti L.]

I agree on that, Wolverine!

[skipaliforus]

I agree that Ben needs to be more level headed when it comes to women. But with what happened to him it's not so easy, he will never fully heal. He will never see women the same as he did when he was little, or worse he has never seen the better side of them at all. just always seen the worst (deceitful, manipulative, exploitative)   He will never trust them, even the ones he likes, he will only see the bad things first or every thing they do will be tainted by (in his head) evil schemes or fallacious motives

It wouldn't be very realistic if he did find a mate. Charles stated that you don't have to love someone to mate. You don't even have to like them, but the one thing you must be able to do is trust them.

The one thing Ben can't do.

I don't see that changing any time soon. To work past those issues is more likely to take decades then it is to take a mere few years. I can definitely see him finding a bed buddy and maybe a short term lover, but even a somewhat serous girlfriend isn't very possible before he starts to accept what happened, and realize it was one woman who betrayed him, not the whole female species.

[wolverine]

Well, I have another ranking question.  I didn't get any answers on where or what happened to the mates of wolves that lost their rank, if that should ever happen? I"m sure it does, somewhere. Or what the real definition of "unmated females" meant for Adam in his sense of responsibility.

My next question is:  I know the wolves are ranked by dominance but is that all? I mean,  Ben, Peter and Honey ranked lowest because of that, I thought I understood Honey to be quite strong.  I guess my question is this:  Are the wolves ranked soley on that OR does it matter how and when they enter the pack?  Is Ben ranked low because he came from London and is new to this pack or is it soley based on his dominance.  Is Samuel, Charles and Adam ranked high because Charles and Samuel are the sons of a Alpha? Did Adam make Alpha because of his own strength or was he the sone of an Alpha? or because he has natural dominance as well?  Am I making sense?

[Patti L.]

You're asking what the whole dominance process is.
Adam is clearly NOT the son of an alpha, no inheritance if there are no children, remember?
Dominance is partly physical prowess, thus Paul thinking he could challenge.
It is also very largely about character.

[wolverine]

Thanks Patti!  I can't keep all the details straight sometimes. It doesn't help that I read other Were stories and their authors relay things differently.  I agree and understand about the character part.  Who wouldn't trustBran, Charles, Adam or Samuel to be their leader? I guess I"m torn or confused about rank because in the Mercy novels we are told Warren in third because of his sexual prefence, and Darryl is second althought he's really not more dominant than Warren but because the other memebers would accept that first.  If pack rank is soely based on character, strength and dominance then Adam wouldn't need to declare who goes in what order, right?  So, if this is the case, why can't the Alpha move a lower ranking wolve up IF he sees fit and demote another? 

[Patti L.]

Because the demoted wolf would have every right to challenge to regain his rank.  And it could well be to the death.
Also because it would mess with the pack dynamics, like the whole "Mercy has been declared mate by Adam but hasn't accepted the position" issue.

And remember, this is in Mercyverse; LKH, Kelley Armstrong, Whatsername with Kitty, their fictons all have different werewolf rules.

And it doesn't even ALWAYS work that way in Mercyverse; just under Bran as the Marrok.  Europe has different rules.

[wolverine]

I think it would be a great story to have some of the European Wolves show up and stir the pot!  I know how wrong that sounds...but I would love to see some mayhem! more than what we already get I guess!

[skipaliforus]

traits that make Samuel and Charles dominant:

I believe that it's more of a nature and nurture kind of thing. just like a man who who is a mechanic will likely pass on that natural mechanical thought process to his children. Then further develop it by them observing him and following his methods. Raising your children to be leaders and dominant is not too different. Some of it is thanks to genes. The rest is do to the kind of mentality you instill in them when they are young, and the traits they adopt into them selves from observation, as they grow into adults.

With Adam i think it was largely the military that made him into the kind of man who becomes an Alpha. The Armed Forces tend to make people into leaders, and he was a Sgt. in Vietnam which means he was responsible for their lives, and leading men in war also tends to make you very protective of those who are under your command. From there it isn't hard to see him becoming an Alpha pretty easily.

P.S. Patti- Carrie Vaughn writes the Kitty series

[wolverine]

good points!

[Mike Briggs]

The whole dominance thing seems to be terribly complicated to explain.  Patty and I have talked about this at length, and it just seems to get more complicated not less.It is more than physical prowess, though that's certainly part of it.  The wolves depend on the Alpha for leadership and safety in a world that's pretty hostile.  New wolves, without leadership, would be dangerous to everyone around them, and easy prey for darker things at the same time.  

The pack functions a little like a military unit getting new recruits.  To start with they scare the newbies half to death, and tell them when to brush their teeth, when to sit and when to sleep.  Those who can't adapt die.  Those who survive become part of the pack.  Think about the sort of characters you'd like to see in a military commander, and that's what a good alpha needs.  Sure, you'd like him to be tough, but you also want him to be smart, and fair, and charismatic.   The kind of person people follow willingly.

The dominance thing is as much about personality as fighting ability. Many dominance questions are solved without a fight, or with only a token fight.  For instance, lets pretend that one fine day the wolves all got over their homophobia.  Warren and Darryl might well agree to switch places, with Adam's blessing.  If a formal challenge were required (I can't remember the rules about that -- Patty set it up such that the top positions required a formal challenge, mostly to insure that the whole pack was aware of any change in rank), then it might be as simple as Warren entering the ring and Darryl formally yielding.  It doesn't have to be bloody.

Ben may be a good fighter (I don't think Patty has ranked fighting ability by itself -- she just makes stuff up!), and he's loyal.  But would the pack follow him into battle?  Could they trust him to put them first, and himself second?  Is he a LEADER?  That's what makes a good dominant wolf.  The pack bonds allow the pack members to strengthen those they support.  A perfect alpha has the unanimous support of the pack -- which makes him virtually impossible to defeat.  Successful challenges for top positions usually mean that the pack was itself divided on whom to support.  Usually, just violence isn't enough to get a wolf to the top of a healthy pack.  Remember, Adam was not only wounded, the pack wasn't healthy, which is the only reason Paul had any chance at all.

 You can rise in rank through sheer violence, but a pack ruled by an Alpha whose only virtue is his fighting prowess is in serious trouble . . . and probably due a visit from Bran and/or Charles,  like Leo.   Ben is probably due to rise in rank, but he has several personality flaws that effectively weaken him and make it harder for the pack to support him.   Ben is a work in progress -- but he doesn't belong in the top ranks yet.  

Does that make any more sense?

[Addicted Gamer]

Yes, Mike it makes perfect sense.

I think that Ben, if you have his loyalty, would be perfect for back-up, at the moment (see Blood Bound)

As for Warren and Darryl:
Warren is just glad to have an Alpha who accepts him for who he his and will support him, and to finally be
part of a pack. He's not going to make trouble for the rank of 2nd, that would only unbalance the pack more.
Darryl is 2nd and very loyal, we need him there as he is dominant and alpha enough to keep the order for
Adam (when he's not around). Furthermore his mate is also able to keep things in check. I didn't like Auriele
first, but she has mellowed and now I like how she has turned out (she's nicer towards Mercy now )