Author Topic: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military  (Read 55896 times)

Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #150 on: July 22, 2011, 06:09:58 pm »
But how many packs need an alpha who could be trusted with a young girl?  Most young girls associated with a pack would have a werewolf dad between them and the Alpha.  And there's going to be fireworks if an Alpha tries to do anything that might harm the daughter of one of his wolves, I'd bet!  So the only cases where an Alpha has direct jurisdiction over a young girl would be 1) young female werewolves, which doesn't happen very often, or 2) Alpha with a human daughter, like Adam.  And I'd bet that most Alphas who have daughters are ueber-protective of them, while a young female werewolf would be seen by the Alpha's wolf as just another unmated female pack member.  To Be Protected, but also Useful To The Pack.  And the wolf doesn't have human ethics, right?

Ellyll

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #151 on: July 22, 2011, 07:06:38 pm »
Yes, but I think the implication was that those Alphas wouldn't be considered safe to be trusted with many things, if even a young child can't be safe with them.  Like adult women, for example...
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Kyria

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #152 on: July 22, 2011, 07:30:34 pm »
Yes, but there are a lot of people who don't know how to handle children who are perfectly responsible otherwise.  One might expect a lot of that sort of person in a secretive culture of brutally dangerous adults. 

I'm not saying they ARE otherwise good Alphas or responsible.  Merely that I'm not willing to rule it out.

little gray wolf

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2011, 06:38:14 am »
Didn't Honey mention something when Kara was introduced about her old alpha not being so good?
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CarolKat

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2011, 07:12:38 am »
Honey left her old pack because of some form of abuse was the impression I got.

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DandelionWine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2011, 07:35:35 am »
Well, even though I know there are all kinds of reasons my line of thinking here is not going to make every thing ok, and yes, though Leo managed to force Anna into a corner, and I remember what Honey said too now that you mention it, lets not forget that once a person (male, female, young or old) is changed, they have that wolf in there to help them protect themselves, including keeping the human half safe too.  Part of what kept Anna off balance was she didn't know enough about a pack and how it is supposed to work.  True, there's a certain amount of oppression and potential for bad things happening even in a healthy pack, but the wolf IS a tough creature.

My feeling is that Leo and his pack was SO FAR from healthy that it was on the far far far end of the pendulum swing of how any pack in the States could go wrong.  If we go there, with that pack off the edge, and the distribution of other packs that are whacked on the far edges of the swing in either direction, and Bran's pack and Adam's pack, imperfect though they are as far as individuals go... they have good leadership and are pretty stable, so they are at the middle of the swing. 

Anyway, my point is that even if an Alpha is stuck in the dark ages of how females should be treated, they still have some protections by both their wolf and pack law... skewed though it may be by the Alpha's dominance as well as custom, modern wolves are going to have to settle into some new standards.  A female pack member in this day and age cannot be kept away from modern thinking on her human side, and the wolf isn't dumb either.  She may be more willing to accept pack law for herself, but she's driven to support the human half and her needs and desires too because they are so interdependent.

As younger wolves get incorporated into packs, they are going to start pushing back on some of the oldest customs etc.  Bran is trying to move things as slow as he can to keep them comfortable, but fast enough to keep them all out of trouble with modern law and civilization. too  We've seen that wolves and fae can't get away with the things they used to, and that they're going to have to adapt at least a little.  Not sure I've expressed this well enough, sorry if it's confusing.
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little gray wolf

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2011, 07:44:38 am »
I think I get it. You are saying that as younger wolves become a majority, they will push for more rights, and if they become alphas, they may be able to change the pack anyway
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DandelionWine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2011, 07:59:50 am »
yep, even Adam is young by wolf standards and he's only about 70 or so.  ... but also that even a young female has some protection in a normal pack.  Not as much as we'd think was good enough, but in a normal pack she has some standing.  Those packs other than the 19 or so that Bran said were fairly safe for Kara, are going to have to work their way closer to the middle ground.  I think it'll happen over time, I just hope they have enough time.
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Ellyll

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2011, 08:51:31 am »
Yes, but there are a lot of people who don't know how to handle children who are perfectly responsible otherwise.  One might expect a lot of that sort of person in a secretive culture of brutally dangerous adults. 

I'm not saying they ARE otherwise good Alphas or responsible.  Merely that I'm not willing to rule it out.

Bran's having so few wolves he could trust with a child wasn't about their not being able to handle children.  It was about their not being trusted not to violate and abuse the child.  Two completely different problems. 
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little gray wolf

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2011, 09:08:31 am »
What I want to know... they said Bran was in charge of appointing Alpas. If they aren'y good with women/kids, why did he appoint them?
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DandelionWine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2011, 10:26:51 am »
I don't think he appoints them.  He doesn't micromanage the packs.  Any Alpha who rises to the position must bow to him or risk a visit by him and probably then be forced to either bow or die because he is as dominant as he is, but they must rise on their own, and hold their pack on their own.  Once they do, he has some say so, but not so much that he can dictate everything in their pack.  He can probably sway things the way he wants them to but not dictate. 

Like with Adam and what went on in his pack, or an officer in the military.  He answers to the higher command when things go wrong, but as long as he maintains standards and control, he is in charge.  It's not perfect, but Bran can't be everywhere at all times.  He needs to manage, not dictate.
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gryphon340

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2011, 11:12:09 am »
Not Manage but Lead big big difference
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DandelionWine

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2011, 11:14:34 am »
Bit of both I suspect gryphon!  Wolves are big on dominance and force, the human half respects the leader, the wolf half demands some real dominance.  I think Bran is up to that challenge though.  IMO he's well aware of both needs.  But yeah leading is more important to the modern human half, even if there's some push needed from the wolf half.
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gryphon340

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2011, 11:44:52 am »
Sorta like Ike vs Patton vs Monty vs Bradley vs Powell
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Patti L.

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Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2011, 12:07:45 pm »
I just found this over in "Ask Patty:  Answered", and I've bolded the part about how females are treated in general:

Good question.  Why does anyone put up with abuse?  The answer is usually that they are conditioned to it, expect it, and think they deserve it.

Anna didn't have any way to fight back.  She had no allies and could not go up against the rest of the pack (and remember, part of what makes an Omega an Omega is that they are mostly nonviolent -- unless someone she cares about is threatened).  She was brainwashed, beaten over and over again, and raped in a deliberate attempt to break her -- because Leo knew that as an Omega she was all but immune to the normal controls an Alpha/dominant has over his pack.  So he had to establish his control a different way.  She knew that she was a monster, something extremely dangerous -- and her pack was the only source of information on how to live with it that she had.  She's told that her life is what every unmated female were goes through (and in some places, not under Bran's jurisdiction, that really is the way the females live).

She also knew that anyone she told would be killed, whoever they were.  Going to the police was not an option, as she never knew when she would be watched -- and she was afraid that all she would accomplish is to get a lot of police officers killed.  She wasn't willing to risk someone else's life.
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