Author Topic: The Spirit Tides  (Read 20084 times)

Grey Drakkon

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The Spirit Tides
« on: December 10, 2007, 09:13:16 pm »
Actually there's a place in Canada that has something like that super tide, I think.  From what I remember, it's an unusually shallow area that's normally underwater for a long way out into the ocean, so what looks like "beach" becomes "wall of water" very suddenly. 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

Taranis

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2007, 10:13:45 pm »
Random question, but since the moon is so closely linked to the tides, does the moon influence this super tide?  Or is there no connection at all for this super tide?  I'm really fascinated by this subject...

Grey Drakkon

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2007, 10:24:21 pm »
Well being from RI, a state that is closely tied to the water, I can tell you that the moon definitely influences the tides, as well as the sun.  Once or twice a year we get "neap tides" and "spring tides".  One is a super high and low tide, and the other is an extremely weak tide where there's barely any change. 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

Taranis

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2007, 10:26:05 pm »
Oh, I know the moon controls the tides, but I was wondering if there would have to be a special phenomenon in the moon's appearance for there to be a supertide...or is it something that happens outside of the moon's natural influence?

Mike Briggs

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2007, 10:40:08 pm »
Random question, but since the moon is so closely linked to the tides, does the moon influence this super tide?  Or is there no connection at all for this super tide?  I'm really fascinated by this subject...

Taranis:
It's been long enough that I don't remember how I had it worked out!  The moon played a role, certainly, as it's the primary cause of all tides.  I remember what I was trying to do was modify conditions so that the spring tides (which are normally every two weeks, roughly), would trigger something spectacular involving a seawall and an offshore current. The idea was that the current would be cut off during the ebb of the spring tide, resulting in a MUCH lower than usual tide, and a subsequent redirection of water around a partial seawall would fairly suddenly divert a huge volume of  back when the returning tide reached a critical height. For some reason, it worked out that only one of the two monthly spring tides would actually trigger the huge tide -- though I recall that that that required some "tweaking".  It would be much more likely for the spirit tide occur every fortnight rather than once a month.  On the other hand, it COULD happen on a monthly basis, and that's what Patty was trying to ascertain!

EDIT:
Oh, by the way, the spring and neap tides are influenced by both the sun and the moon.  If the sun and the moon are effectively "in line" along the ecliptic then their gravitational attraction is additive, and the tides are unusually high (spring tide), if they are at mazimal offset (first and third quarter) the sun and moon work to cancel each other, resulting in relatively smaller tides.  The really big tides you see once or twice a year have to do with the fact that the earth's orbit around the sun isn't quite circular.  When we're closer to the sun, it's influence on tides is enhanced, so the spring and neap tides are MUCH more noticable.   

Oooh -- I remember why the "Spirit Tide" was a monthly rather than a bi-weekly event.  Since it was a fantasy book, not necessarily set on this earth, I added a bit of eccentricity to the moons orbit.  Basically, one spring tide each month would occur with the moon at apogee (closest approach) and this would trigger the Spirit Tide.  The other spring tide would occur at perigee, and be substancially weaker, failing to trigger the Spirit Tide.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 10:54:35 pm by Mike Briggs »
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Ellyll

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2007, 05:58:09 am »
Oooh -- I remember why the "Spirit Tide" was a monthly rather than a bi-weekly event.  Since it was a fantasy book, not necessarily set on this earth, I added a bit of eccentricity to the moons orbit.  Basically, one spring tide each month would occur with the moon at apogee (closest approach) and this would trigger the Spirit Tide.  The other spring tide would occur at perigee, and be substancially weaker, failing to trigger the Spirit Tide.


Very clever.   :D
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Zealith

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2007, 07:51:19 pm »
Wow, that's amazing! I can't believe you went to the trouble to work that all out!. However, I think it's very interesting. Any other projects of Patty's that you had to do alot of research for?

Taranis

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2007, 07:52:31 pm »
Wow, thanks for the explaination, Mike!  Sounds fascinating, you really put a lot of work into that!  :)

Grey Drakkon

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 08:14:28 pm »
EDIT:
Oh, by the way, the spring and neap tides are influenced by both the sun and the moon.  If the sun and the moon are effectively "in line" along the ecliptic then their gravitational attraction is additive, and the tides are unusually high (spring tide), if they are at mazimal offset (first and third quarter) the sun and moon work to cancel each other, resulting in relatively smaller tides.  The really big tides you see once or twice a year have to do with the fact that the earth's orbit around the sun isn't quite circular.  When we're closer to the sun, it's influence on tides is enhanced, so the spring and neap tides are MUCH more noticable.   

   Heh, you beat me to explaining that.  My guy was nudging me off the computer so I'd go to bed so I was a bit hurried. ;)  Thanks for doing the work for me. 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

Mike Briggs

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 08:37:44 pm »
Wow, that's amazing! I can't believe you went to the trouble to work that all out!. However, I think it's very interesting. Any other projects of Patty's that you had to do alot of research for?

Well, the fantasy books generally require a pretty good knowledge of how medieval societies functioned. Patty's a history major with an emphasis in European history, and we've managed to assemble a pretty good collection of scholarly works on everything from farming to weaponry which she consults on a fairly regular basis.  We've also have good sections on Fae/Fairies/legendary creatures and we're getting to have a number of books on magic. . . .   Actually, let me talk about that for a minute.  This is a fairly delicate topic, and I'm hoping not to offend anyone, so PLEASE don't start a flame war.  Actually, this is exactly the sort of thing Patty would just refuse to talk about in a public forum -- she's probably smarter than me!  :D

Frankly, the magic/occult books make me a little nervous -- I'm perfectly comfortable with our various Wiccan/Pagan friends, but we're actually pretty conservative Christians (Mormons).  Somehow the magic books seem out of place with all our other religious texts, and I'm not sure how the bishop would react if he saw them . . . :-\   

Actually, the magic books are strange in another way.  I used to live in Venezuela, and I've seen a fair bit of witchcraft -- not all of it as friendly as Wicca.  I believe there's real power there, and some of it is dangerous, especially to people who don't have any idea what they're doing.  For the record, all of it scares me witless, and I've never tried even the whitest of magic myself.   We've tried to insure that the magic systems in Patty's world capture an authentic "feel", without actually including anything that could be real.  If some kids find a summoning ritual in one of Patty's books and go act it out, I don't want ANYTHING to happen -- how's that for backwards research? :P

Other than that -- lets see . . . My son and I did martial arts pretty seriously (about 6 hours week formal training, plus lots of practice hours) for about five years.  This comes in real handy when blocking out fight scenes -- I've made every dumb mistake in the book at one time or another, and have the dings, dents and scars to prove it.

We've owned a string of aging VW's, and I've kept them all running one way or another for years.  Does that count as research, or just writing what you already know???  ;D

Oh yes, toxins and medical stuff.  All good writers should have a doctor in the family.  Patty's sister is a very good doctor, and has fielded some VERY strange requests.   If someone's wrist is crushed, what would it look like?  What would they feel?  How badly impaired would their use of it be?  These are all great questions to pass by an expert, because the details aren't always intuitive.

Mostly, we just try to make sure that whenever Patty writes about something she doesn't know much about, we take the time (and possibly spend the money) to either talk to an expert or actually get her some experience in that field.  It's generally fun!

Mike
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 09:15:31 pm by Mike Briggs »
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Mike Briggs

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 09:12:02 pm »
   Heh, you beat me to explaining that.  My guy was nudging me off the computer so I'd go to bed so I was a bit hurried. ;)  Thanks for doing the work for me. 

Hey there Grey!
Actually, I'm going to side with your guy.  I know all about trying to nudge the fair bride off the computer and into the bedroom!  ;)    Seems like that's something all married blokes struggle with <grin>.
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Grey Drakkon

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 10:01:24 pm »
Har, except a bride I'll n'eer be! 
"Sometimes its hard to tell the difference between existentialism and a bad mood."  ~Kris, "Blade of Tyshalle"

Patti L.

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 11:16:50 pm »
Second the motion, with better punctuation. <grin>
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jackie

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2007, 08:44:40 am »
Mike - the restraint on magic systems is wise IMO.  It is possible to write anything, and I generally don't like public censoring at all.  But just because you can say or write it doesn't mean you should.   I think it is each individual's responsibility to censor what is allowed into their life, but that doesn't mean we all do it well. 

I also think we won't know what's going on with the left, right, up or down wing nuts out there unless we listen to them.  And it's hard to do that if we are all plugging our ears!

Patti L.

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Re: Silver Bullets?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 10:32:05 am »
I'll throw my 2 pfennigs in on magic in books too.  Did you hear that originally Mercedes Lackey's 'Diana Tregarde' books were stand alones, not connected to any of her other work?  Then she found out that people were trying to do some of the rituals she wrote about for them, and stopped writing them, appalled at the idea. (she's got some really nasty villians)  She only decided she could write more of them when she got the idea to connect them to the other urban fantasies that involved elves.  That way, you had to swallow the whole package, and it's just too big a lump for the wannabe black magicians who were reading & trying out her rituals.  I'd say that Madame is safe on that count, both because she started from a base of the 'fae reservation' and werewolves, and because she's (I assume carefully, or perhaps with the same distaste as Mr. Mike expresses) made sure that there are no details of magic specific enough IN WRITING to copy.  They may be in the research material, the notes, even the rough drafts, but they aren't in what goes to print.

Second thing is, the leaving out of at least one key element.  They did that on the Magyver tv show, for much the same reason.  Keep people from doing it out in the real world & maiming or killing themselves because they weren't competent enough to pull it off.

If the publishers are now offering the chance to put a blurb 'about the author' on/in the books, nothing I know says you can't put in a short disclaimer to maintain your good standing with your bishop. And fellow Morman Orson Scott Card does fantasy too.
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