Author Topic: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes  (Read 74660 times)

Zealith

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2011, 07:52:27 pm »
Yeah, but that doesn't mean the government couldn't find a way to take it out of their control, at least a little

DandelionWine

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #151 on: February 10, 2011, 07:13:04 am »
but don't the weres have a system to moniter the new changes?

Not THAT well!  They know only about it if a pack or Alpha is responsible and follows the Marrok's laws, but if someone takes a left turn like Leo did and covers it up, then no, they don't have some psychic WW sensing thing so they can track them.

Actually, it doesn't even have to be an Alpha like Leo.  Some generic pack member who travels for his non-were job or who goes to a business convention, and looses control one night and doesn't report it?  Yeah, someone might figure it out later, but now there's these victims who are left to struggle, and they may not have ever seen the human form.  I think all the police are going to start tracking descriptions of any wolves and try to match them to humans... even if they aren't "out" yet.  *dunh dunh daaaaa!*
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little gray wolf

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #152 on: February 10, 2011, 12:49:18 pm »
since the time they did that with the fae went soooooo well 9)
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Patti L.

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #153 on: October 12, 2011, 10:29:54 am »
but don't the weres have a system to moniter the new changes?

Not THAT well!  They know only about it if a pack or Alpha is responsible and follows the Marrok's laws, but if someone takes a left turn like Leo did and covers it up, then no, they don't have some psychic WW sensing thing so they can track them.

Actually, it doesn't even have to be an Alpha like Leo.  Some generic pack member who travels for his non-were job or who goes to a business convention, and looses control one night and doesn't report it?  Yeah, someone might figure it out later, but now there's these victims who are left to struggle, and they may not have ever seen the human form.  I think all the police are going to start tracking descriptions of any wolves and try to match them to humans... even if they aren't "out" yet.  *dunh dunh daaaaa!*

Isn't there a mention in one of the books that there is an instinctive desire by a werewolf who has changed someone else to stay close to them at first and teach them?  It obviously doesn't work on all werewolves - see Kyra, Adam, Ben... - but usually the werewolf will have one or more mentors in the usual course of events.  A very few (see Walter) can gain control of themselves, but they don't learn the "rules" and a lot of the other things that being "raised" in a pack offers.  They may not know or realize (although Walter did) that they CAN change other than at full moon, the "silence" pack magic sure wouldn't be apparent, the official ranking of unmated females at the bottom of the pack might not be obvious, especially for dominant females like Honey.

And here's a new question:  Would the gov't now consider outed werewolves who are drafted or volunteering for armed services 4F; do they think of the fae that way?  Certainly as mentioned previously, the Navy, the Coast Guard and possibly the Marines would consider werewolves ineligible because of their inability to float, let alone swim, but what about land based/air based services?  What about Secret Service, DEA - really handy there - ATF, CIA, Homeland Security in the US?  What about various government services in other countries, mostly Europe, since "werewolves are European monsters"?
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DandelionWine

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #154 on: October 12, 2011, 11:43:37 am »
Isn't there a mention in one of the books that there is an instinctive desire by a werewolf who has changed someone else to stay close to them at first and teach them?  It obviously doesn't work on all werewolves - see Kyra, Adam, Ben... - but usually the werewolf will have one or more mentors in the usual course of events. 

I think it'd be like so many other things, it may be instinctive for a responsible WW to stay and mentor a new wolf, or see to it that someone does, but if a WW is generally a jerk, or a fool, or a ne'er do well, and knew they had screwed up and lost control they may decide to slip away and leave the victim.  He may feel a little bad about it, but depending on the WW, he (she? though less likely of course) he may decide it's best to beat feet and leave town and hope he doesn't get caught. 

Seems to me that it's quite as possible that the individual can be as responsible or irresponsible as anyone else, just depends on the situation and the individual.
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lostbird

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #155 on: October 12, 2011, 12:22:53 pm »
And here's a new question:  Would the gov't now consider outed werewolves who are drafted or volunteering for armed services 4F; do they think of the fae that way?  Certainly as mentioned previously, the Navy, the Coast Guard and possibly the Marines would consider werewolves ineligible because of their inability to float, let alone swim, but what about land based/air based services?  What about Secret Service, DEA - really handy there - ATF, CIA, Homeland Security in the US?  What about various government services in other countries, mostly Europe, since "werewolves are European monsters"?


I guess I don't think so. I think the military would see weres as assets. Okay, they can't swim, they can't float. However, on land, it's like having a super soldier. In fact, didn't someone in one of the books mention that some weres' families were being threatened into cooperating with the military? I think it may have been more implied than anything. But I think Charles has alluded quite strongly to the fact that the government knows weres exist and they just haven't really found a way to capitalize on that information ... yet. One of the many reasons Bran felt it necessary to bring the wolves "out."

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2011, 12:32:36 pm »
Yes, in "Hunting Ground" there was mention of weres in other countries being pressured with extortion against their families if they didn't cooperate, & there was the moment when Charles had told Anna that he got followed sometimes.  She had the practically cartoon image of them in their black suits trying to follow him.

But given that Mercy went into that whole riff about how Brownies - Very Good teachers of small children - have been forced out of the schools, I can see either governmental or popular pressure making the rules reject "Very Good" soldiers & agents from what they're equipped for.  Besides, given the temper issues that werewolves have, and the whole "scent of blood = food" or "running creature = prey" reflexes... they could - if not chosen very carefully - be a worse liability in the situations they're theoretically best suited for, than they are help.  Consider a scenario with captured diplomats, or even one or more working with the "kidnappers", and one or more of the prisoners either bleeding or reacting aggressively when the "Wolf Team Bravo" comes in and starts savaging the bad guys.  Suddenly, it turns into a bloodbath, and few or none of the prisoners survive.
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lostbird

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2011, 12:44:21 pm »
I'm thinking there would be either something like a "don't ask/don't tell" thing going on for a while, or there would be a super secret group of elite soldiers that would be made up of werewolves. I think the government would *say* that werewolves were not suitable for the military, but I think what they would do behind the scenes would be very different.


And I do kinda think that once a were has his control in order, and has a strong alpha to keep him in line, he can be an unstoppable force. Perhaps they would get an alpha to head up that elite group of soldiers....

Victorymon

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2011, 06:43:49 pm »
one thing I guess is really important here: I dont think that the world is ready to know all the power and weakness of a werewolf. Bran will keep that stuff as a secret. yes, maybe a small group of govermental guys might know about it, but not many people.
even some werewolves dont know too much about themself if not teached correctly, right?
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Moonbeam

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #159 on: April 08, 2013, 03:38:39 am »
Quote
And here's a new question:  Would the gov't now consider outed werewolves who are drafted or volunteering for armed services 4F; do they think of the fae that way?  Certainly as mentioned previously, the Navy, the Coast Guard and possibly the Marines would consider werewolves ineligible because of their inability to float, let alone swim, but what about land based/air based services?  What about Secret Service, DEA - really handy there - ATF, CIA, Homeland Security in the US?  What about various government services in other countries, mostly Europe, since "werewolves are European monsters"?
If there is even a remote possibility that foreign governments may view weres as any type of weapon or asset, then you can bet your eyeteeth that the US government will not want to be left behind.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean they will want weres in the regular military ranks - but they surely would find a place for them, a way to (in their minds) control them, and a use for them.

So the real question isn't so much whether they would be allowed into government agencies or the military - It is  more like, "Would they be treated as individuals with earned rank an privilege like others, or would they be treated as mindless weapons who are there to be used as the government sees fit?"

And honestly, in real life - our government sometimes treats people as nothing more than human resources who are there to be exploited and used for the benefit of the agency and/or our country.

DandelionWine

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #160 on: April 08, 2013, 04:19:01 am »
WereWolves -IN- the military would be a very iffy thing IMO.   Better perhaps if they are changed later in the military life where there is at least a little more autonomy allowed and their value as an individual is established.  As a raw recruit, the troop is constantly challenged, faced down, forced into situations that ARE threatening in both physical and mental ways, and challenged with face-to-face, eye contact type scenarios.  Military protocol means that you don't make eye contact if in formation, you focus away from the TI, DI or whatever instructor or officer is getting in your face, but THEY make eye contact while giving you your talking to (shouting at you).  There may be WWs that would put up with that, but.... I seriously doubt it.

There would have to be a WW unit leader, and he better be good because I can't even see Adam being willing to take orders the way you have to in the military anymore, even though he maintains a lot of military structure in his job and in the pack.  There isn't room for WW pack politics in the military, at ALL.  After a task is done, or a situation handled, he makes room for things like challenges within the pack or such.  That would be expressly illegal in the military and I don't see such extreme allowances being made.

I could see a unit of WWs or partly WWs working WITH the military though, something similar to David Christianson's mercenary unit, but being under the UCMJ seems pretty impossible.  If any government tried to engineer a unit of this sort on their own, (maybe by taking volunteers to be changed?), I'm guessing they'd be buying a bushel and a half of trouble.
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Baum Diggity

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Re: Wannabe werewolves & forced versus voluntary changes
« Reply #161 on: April 08, 2013, 09:23:53 am »
I know it's a tidbit out of the Mercyverse, but Carrie Vaughn explores this concept in some of her later books. It certainly leans into the territory of "not a good idea", but it tends to be due primarily to poor management and debrief rather than it's a bad idea to give orders to something you really can't control. Though both sides are a problem.
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