The Hurog Family

Patricia Briggs' Books => The Weres => Mercy's Garage: General Series Topics & Themes Board => Topic started by: Elle on August 30, 2007, 06:46:32 pm

Title: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Elle on August 30, 2007, 06:46:32 pm
Or Evolution is probably a better word for it.

I'd like to think that no matter what happens with Mercy she triggers some change in the were society. I think that would be fascinating to read about as she subtly manipulates those around her into doing exactly what she wants them to do.

Will we ever in Werewolf society see a female Alpha? Honey is a good example of what could be, she's a fighter, she's better than most of the men. It's even been said in the books that if she were a man she'd be an Alpha because of her fighting skills.

I'd like to think that Kara Beckwith will be an advocate for change in the were society as well. Who knows...maybe she has the potential to be the first.

Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Spryte on August 30, 2007, 07:13:10 pm
Thank you for starting this thread.... ever since I started reading I've been waiting for some shift that will at least put females on equal footing more often. I wonder what will happen to cause that, if it happens at all.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Elle on August 30, 2007, 07:30:18 pm
I've read a couple of times where Mercy says...they're lucky she's not in a pack...cause she'd drag them into the 21st century.

I'd like to think that there's one or two more female lone wolves out there just doing what they do, living a silent revolution.  :D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenglows on August 30, 2007, 09:29:14 pm
I don't see why the females aren't more equal with the men in Were society.  They can't bear children, so they don't have that pregnancy/mom-of-newborn vunerability time at all. I can understand the desire for the big male protector when your raising small children but there is really no reason at all for the females not to be equal if they don't have those responsibilities.

 Go forth Were-revolution!!!

Have any of you read The Left hand of Darkness??
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Morgaine0000 on August 30, 2007, 10:29:23 pm
It actually kind of doesn't make sense.   When Warren was hurt, Mercy thought it should have been instinct to obey Darryl.   Since he didn't, she and Darryl concluded that he wasn't really less dominant than Darryl and had been faking it.   Also, in Alpha and Omega, Charles said if Anna was really a submissive wolf she would not have had to be beaten into acting submissive.  Therefore, shouldn't less dominant wolves  instinctually obey more dominant wolves even if they are female?    What would have happened if Honey had beaten up that wolf that wouldn't let her, Kyle and Mercy into the house?    Maybe she couldn't because he would go challenge her husband and possibly hurt/kill him. But that implies politics instead of instinct. 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Grey Drakkon on August 31, 2007, 05:11:12 am
I'm betting its a good deal more of the human side rather than the wolf side that dictates the females don't get as much power.  Glass ceiling anyone? ;P
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenniwee on August 31, 2007, 08:57:37 am
Actually, what makes this argument interesting is the scene in BB where Honey transforms to show John Beckwith her wolf.  She acknowledges Mercy as dominant in wolf-form, which she never does in human-form.  Mercy is taken aback by it enough to comment that she had always thought that the taking-rank-from-mate was something that the humans tacked onto the wolves, but the scene implies the other way around.  Still, since Mercy isn't a were, and has no instinctive need to fit into the pack, she could cause alot of havoc if she pressed the issue.  Could be lots of fun!  ;D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Elle on September 02, 2007, 04:16:44 pm
I really want to see Mercy shake things up. I know a lot of it is instinct but I think a lot might be learned behaviour as well. I cannot wait to see what she does. :)

jenglows -- I've never read "The Left Hand of Darkness" but I did go and have a look at it. Looks pretty intense with some interesting points on gender politics. Looks pretty relevant to the Werewolf gender issues as well.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenglows on September 02, 2007, 04:48:05 pm
jenglows -- I've never read "The Left Hand of Darkness" but I did go and have a look at it. Looks pretty intense with some interesting points on gender politics. Looks pretty relevant to the Werewolf gender issues as well.
you need to read it ;)  it's classic feminist canon in my opinion ! As well as being just a great fantasy read to boot.  Then we can start the good discussions on how society and gender issues dictate everything we experience from political institutions to our role as mothers.  SF is such a great arena for exploring how our world works,  I just Love it.

Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 02, 2007, 04:51:51 pm
I took a course in college called "women in religion", one of the most challenging classes since the prof actually made us WORK in that class, but also one of the most interesting.  She's a living example of how everything is treated from a man's point of view...She and another prof. were having the same exact symptoms, shortness of breath, fatigue, and so forth.  The other prof. wound up yanked into an emergency room an had heart surgery, while she was told "Oh, you're just having stress."  She went to a woman doctor and found out that her heart was on the verge of collapse and had open heart surgery as soon as they could put her in there.  The difference?  The other prof. was a man, and apparently the same symptoms, body build, medical history means "heart failure" in a man, but "stress" if you're a woman. :P 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenglows on September 02, 2007, 05:00:18 pm
I've heard the same sort of things happen with Strokes.  Heart disease and strokes are big killers for women because they tend not to get early treatment like men.  I've always prefered women doctors, I never understood why some of my friends would only see Male OB's - crazyness! 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Zealith on September 03, 2007, 05:16:34 pm
Hoping for dates with the docs maybe? *grins*
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Grey Drakkon on September 04, 2007, 07:24:53 pm
:: snorts :: That's how one of my docs I used to go to got banned from practicing.  Started dating a client. 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Spryte on September 06, 2007, 04:00:39 pm
Yeah, generally dating a patient is considered a no-no, and it will get your butt kicked right out of the medical field.

I wonder what Bran thinks about Were-ess rights. Would he openly support them, openly oppose, or not take a public stance and just do back stage work for whatever side he's on?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on September 26, 2007, 06:30:15 am
Bran seems like a back stage kinda guy to me.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Iris101 on September 26, 2007, 12:28:22 pm
ya, me too.  Kinda like hes planning something, but doesnt want to attract a lot of attention to whatever it is or that he's the one doing it
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Spryte on September 28, 2007, 01:27:36 pm
Woot! for Bran.... backstage work is one of the most important things... without it the show just doesn't go on. ;)
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on September 28, 2007, 04:33:24 pm
Bran the stage hand.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on September 29, 2007, 07:45:44 pm
I think that Bran might support female weres gaining power and equality but, as has been mentioned, he'd do it quietly, behind the scenes. I see him quietly, subtly manipulating things to his satisfaction.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenglows on October 03, 2007, 11:38:26 am
I'm not sure i agree.  I Love bran ( he's one of my favorite characters)  but I'm not so sure he'd be in suport of female Alphas or an all-girl pack.  I think he deals with women mostly fairly(althoug we don't really know), but that he is still a bit behind the times. 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Iris101 on October 03, 2007, 12:03:00 pm
I agree with you Glow
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on October 03, 2007, 12:20:38 pm
I agree he'd likely be slow to support a female Alpha, certainly to support an all-girl pack (that image conjures up songs from teh 50's & 60's)  but I can def see him supporting bringing females, and the male attitude toward females, into the current century.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenglows on October 03, 2007, 03:47:36 pm
Well, for me the idea of denying women access to power is tied to bringing the 'thinking' into this century ;).  Are we just talking about getting the alphas to information share with the pack females?   Or actually giving females status in the pack  - like rank not based on a relationship to a man ?  ???

If you give them rank you have to allow the option of being in control or you will end up with a situation like Warren is currently holding :(.  I would think that giving women an option of not being under male authority and allowing them to seek pack rank with out mating would encourage/allow a group of women to break from the traditional male-centered pack to form their own. ;D At least until the rest of the community caught up with them socially  :P . They can't even be lone wolves now, everything is dominated by men.  :o
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Grey Drakkon on October 03, 2007, 04:52:53 pm
I'm with Glow on this one, if a female can't go lone wolf, or be an alpha, then she's not being treated as an equal.  Hell, right now they're still being treated like property that has to put out on command, else be raped and nobody seems to think it wrong.  (and that mind set isn't even that old, I've heard grown women say that they tried going to police because their husbands raped them, and were told "no crime has been committed.") 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenniwee on October 03, 2007, 07:21:31 pm
I think part of the problem that we have when we begin talking about feminism and the place of women, is that there are many steps between mysoginy and feminism.  In reality, the packs are less mysoginist and more anti-feminine, though that attitude certainly allows for fairly great abuses of female weres.  Bran would certainly fall short of being a feminist, but he does present a pro-feminine attitude, that could allow him to try to change the accepted treatment of women.
Besides, we tend to forget that the women's fight for equality is well over 200 years old, and most of what the earliest feminists wrote would actually be considered fairly offensive (and even anti-feminine) today.
So, even if Bran is unwilling to consider full female equality, he could be an important step on the way.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Zealith on October 03, 2007, 07:54:13 pm
I don't think they could truely be equal, after all Warren obays Mercy not because she is more dominate, but because he thinks of her as his alpha's mate. That wasn't his human part, that was his wolf.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on October 04, 2007, 10:03:24 am
I woudln't call Bran a feminist but he's definitey a realist. I think he'd want baby steps to changing womens roles and yes, changing the basis of a womans ranking and allowing her basic rights are the first step.

Whether it's Bran or someone else, the wolves will eventually be forced to make changes. Remember, these wolves are bitten not born, they start out as human. Sooner or later teh bitten women will revolt, whether quietly or loudly. We've seen some strong female wolves; how long will they settle for being the power behind the throne?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jackie on October 04, 2007, 10:52:23 am
I think the feminist ideas in packs is one step more complex than feminist ideas in normal, real life.  Points to consider and to explore in future books are:
Like in real life, most men are stronger and more skilled in physical violence and domination. 

There are only so many female weres and it's not surprising that old male dominant patterns are still strong.

I'm sure Bran and his boys aren't the only centenarian wolves.   But they are rare and probably they are alphas in their pack.

But most wovles only last about 10 years after Change, so they should have modern veiws of feminisim and the women in their lives.  I would hope a modern were man would prefer a modern woman and relationship with them.  I sure wouldn't want a relationship where it's ok to treat a person as less than they are.

Then there is all the potentially juicy material in Aspen Creek.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Spryte on October 04, 2007, 11:26:59 am
I don't think an a girl pack would be supported by Bran. I do think that he would support a female alpha, given that she earned that position as any male did. Baby steps would be be neccesary in this situation. It wouldn't be able to happen all at once. Starting with the end of the whole females-can't-be-lone-wolves would be a good place to start.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jackie on October 05, 2007, 06:45:35 am
That would be the best place to start for making it work, I think.   But I could see a really cautionary legend about an all female pack.    Talk about slapping them in the face with too much change!  Or worse yet, a lesbian were!
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on October 05, 2007, 07:09:32 am
I just see a big Catch-22 in trying to get a female Alpha.  No unmated females allowed, female takes rank of mate.  The only way I could see it happening would be if an Alpha male married/mated to a potential Alpha female & died.  Then the second would challenge her for the position, if not simply being assumed to take it.  So she would have to fight him for it.  And if she won, the third, & any other nearby dominant who decided that it was either time to head a pack or that 'a woman can't handle the job', or 'it's just not done'.  So she'd be wounded all the time, thus unable to do the job effectively, thus 'proving' that 'a female can't handle it'.  See Royesse Iselle in 'The Curse of Chalion' for the similar feminist problem.  Well, she didn't actually have that, but what a princess with a brother in a male dominated monarchy can expect.  And darned good storytelling, of course. ;-D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenglows on October 05, 2007, 12:18:49 pm
I'm just not convinced that Bran is all that concerned with the treatment of women at all.  i think his personal behavior is good, but he doesn't seem to be making any moves to address the problems in the rest of the flock. I'm getting this picture because of the way the other Alphas are described when Kara's placement is discussed.  Even in Adam's pack, Honey is hit by another wolf for allowing Mercy in the house, even though we know she can kick butt, she doesn't defend herself(at least that's what I took from the scene).  Allowing yourself to be beaten and not fighting back because you feel like you deserved the punishment is classic abuse-pattern behavior, even in a limited context like the door incident. And I think we agreed that Adam is more enlightened than most Alphas.  ;)
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on October 05, 2007, 08:31:04 pm
Glow, the behavior you describe is classic abuse behavior. In humans. By defintion, Honey is no longer human. While I hope she wouldn't put up with this in a human on human situation, normal behavior is different in the werewolves. I don't like it but does that mean it's wrong?

Now, I want the females to be treated better and have more rights, and I want the packs to become more egalitarian. But let's face it, wolf packs are hierarchical and the males are usually dominant.


So, if werewolf behavior follows, more or less, wolf behavior, can we expect the women to see their treatment as wrong? Have their human patterns of behavior been overwritten by the werewolf instincts? Is it realistic given the world as Patty has set it up?

Sorry if this is confusing. It's late, I'm tired and my eyes are dry.

Edited for many, many typos due to tiredness.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on October 05, 2007, 08:41:24 pm
Booze 'em up & get over to the chat room, Mrs. Briggs has arrived & is expounding, twin.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Spryte on October 08, 2007, 09:46:12 am
arg. I missed the chat because I was forced to go to a party by my parents. grrrrr.

Charmed, you brought up a very valid point. In an all wolf setting, or furry friends are more likely to go with what the wolf tells them instead of by human standards of behavior as they would in their normal life. And we have seen the wolf vs human nature aspect in other areas as well.

I guess that what I really want to see, although a female alpha would be great, is an end to the "no lone female" policy, and there be much much much less of the abuse of female werewolves.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Grey Drakkon on October 08, 2007, 11:03:42 am
Allowing some things to percolate in my morass of a mind, some things bobbed to the surface.  One major one is that what if the males acting as they are has more to do with how their human filters the wolf?  What I mean is, to the wolf there is no right or wrong, no morality.  Humans tend to view violence as "evil", while to the wolf it's a means of communication, and a survival technique.  What if so many of these weres are exacerbating the wolf's behavior by mentally freaking out about it, by repeating in their heads over and over "I'm a bad person because...".  It could be giving them permission in their minds to act even worse than they normally would, because they think "Well I'm already damned, there's no helping it so whatever."  Basically, they have no hope that they can be "good", so just dive headfirst into being rat bastards. 

   From what it sounds like, there are very few trustworthy weres running around, as we saw when they were trying to place that girl into a pack. 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on October 08, 2007, 02:52:30 pm
Allowing some things to percolate in my morass of a mind, some things bobbed to the surface.  One major one is that what if the males acting as they are has more to do with how their human filters the wolf?  What I mean is, to the wolf there is no right or wrong, no morality.  Humans tend to view violence as "evil", while to the wolf it's a means of communication, and a survival technique.  What if so many of these weres are exacerbating the wolf's behavior by mentally freaking out about it, by repeating in their heads over and over "I'm a bad person because...".  It could be giving them permission in their minds to act even worse than they normally would, because they think "Well I'm already damned, there's no helping it so whatever."  Basically, they have no hope that they can be "good", so just dive headfirst into being rat bastards. 

   From what it sounds like, there are very few trustworthy weres running around, as we saw when they were trying to place that girl into a pack. 
I'm not sure that last sentence is right, Drakkon.  It's the Alphas that are problems, not the general pack membership.  And another thing for us to be aware of in this speculation, which is so fun, is that these aren't *wolves*.  They're *werewolves*  Their behavior has always, I  repeat, always been influenced by their human natures.  Because of the tight control that real wolves do on breeding, there isn't anything like the abuse that Anna was subjected to, or Kyra threatened with, in real wolf packs.  First off, male wolves won't be interested in the females unless they're in heat, which happens at most twice a year, unlike humans & werewolves, who may be fertile (if, yes, unable to complete a pregnancy) up to 13 times a year among females, & always ready to jump a female if male (and not the rare gay), so that's clearly a human origin issue.  Second, only the alpha pair breeds.  And third, newer research shows that the whole 'one leader' thing may not be correct for wolves, any more than it was for the american indian tribes.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Grey Drakkon on October 08, 2007, 03:38:31 pm
Ohh I know that the the human comes into play a lot when it comes to sex, that's one of the things I was trying to say.  The "wolf" part of them may cause aggression, but the human is the one that expresses it in violence towards females. 
 
   Another major difference in the pack hierarchy, is from what I read the female alpha picks the male alpha, after all, it's kinda hard for a male wolf to rape the female when she can just tuck her tail down. :P
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on October 09, 2007, 04:50:23 am
I thought in real wolf packs that the female alpha actually had more power then the male...Maybe I'm just nuts after watching a ot of animal planet
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Grey Drakkon on October 09, 2007, 05:13:46 am
From what I've read, it's mostly balanced, the male is in charge of keeping the males in line, and the female does likewise for the females. 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on October 09, 2007, 05:14:41 am
Ah the queen of the wolves
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on October 09, 2007, 07:47:21 am
Why not?  I based the weretiger society in my stories around the lion social structure, although I didn't realize it until just now.  The females hold the territory, & the males come in from outside.  In lion prides, the males will kill immature cubs, especially male ones, to encourage the females to stop lactating & go into breeding mode more rapidly, but the females may refuse the males anyway until they're satisfied that they'll last, not be killed by the next pair (it's usually a pair) to come down the pike.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Spryte on October 09, 2007, 04:41:08 pm
bloody but effective.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 06, 2007, 09:35:59 am
i'm just waiting for mercy to lead the revolution with the women in the pack
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on November 13, 2007, 04:54:14 am
I can see it now all the female weres running around in kilts with blue face paint screaming FREEDOM!
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 13, 2007, 10:13:32 am
ha ha ha that would be interesting
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on November 13, 2007, 01:00:52 pm
Mercy will have to change her name to wallace
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 13, 2007, 01:07:15 pm
ha ha yeah
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Iris101 on November 17, 2007, 12:59:41 am
LOL  Wallace?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 17, 2007, 10:05:35 am
will there ever be a revolution?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Spryte on November 18, 2007, 02:59:37 pm
Hey, now that they've gone public all the female weres in America could go on strike (for lack of a better word.)

Can't you just see it? huge numbers of female (and probably some male) werewolves outside of Bran's house demanding equal rights... ;D

Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Ellyll on November 18, 2007, 05:06:40 pm
LOL  Wallace?

William Wallace, a Scottish hero from way back when (~ 1300).  They made the movie Braveheart about him, in which you had a lot of Scots...

running around in kilts with blue face paint screaming FREEDOM!


He died a gruesome death in the end, but he scared the English first. 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Iris101 on November 20, 2007, 03:39:02 pm
OOOO  I saw that movie
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Talking_Mouse on November 24, 2007, 03:30:01 pm
Hey, now that they've gone public all the female weres in America could go on strike (for lack of a better word.)

Can't you just see it? huge numbers of female (and probably some male) werewolves outside of Bran's house demanding equal rights... ;D



But he is dominant to them.  If he tells them to "go away" they will "go away" not because they want to, but because it is hardwired to obey a more dominant wolf.  The image of all the female werewolves carrying picket signs and chanting outside Bran's house is wonderful (wonder if Leah would join them).
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 25, 2007, 04:29:38 pm
i think mercy would be out there and she wouldn't back down at bran's command, and leah wouldn't go against bran and definitely wouldn't go along with mercy - even if the rights would help her
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on November 27, 2007, 05:48:57 am
she cutting off her nose to spite her face
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on November 27, 2007, 08:42:54 am
Or shooting herself in the foot, unless this is *exactly* what she really wants, & that's making her so cranky.  Mate of uber-alpha is stuck being uber-model 'good little werewolf mate' while coyote girl gets away with (comparatively) everything.  Until the revolution, when they may still detest each other but can work together.
Just a random thought. . .
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on November 27, 2007, 09:14:39 am
Yes she hates Mercy because she wants to be like Mercy. You truely have the mind of an evil genius.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on November 27, 2007, 04:28:58 pm
*says nothing, polishing nails modestly*
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on November 28, 2007, 08:29:32 am
Gah!!!! The fumes!!!!!!
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on November 28, 2007, 08:32:46 am
Another point of my evil genius plot, especially since I was talking more about buffing them, silly wench.
After the revolution, will the shewolves polish their nails?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on November 28, 2007, 08:34:43 am
Yes, blood red to remind their y chromosomed slaves of their wrath. ;D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 30, 2007, 04:36:01 pm
ha ha thats a good point but will strong-headed leah be able to work with mercy without them stepping on each other's toes - so to say
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on December 03, 2007, 09:06:20 am
It's okay if they step on each others toes, Leah just can't eat Mercy.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Iris101 on December 04, 2007, 04:24:51 pm
lol  there might not be any toes to step on....
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on December 04, 2007, 06:12:43 pm
yes she can technically she will just have to live with the consequences
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on December 04, 2007, 06:17:39 pm
Or die.  It's murder.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on December 04, 2007, 06:24:27 pm
yes, but if she doesn't completely kill mercy - which i think some one would have stopped her by then - she will just havfe some sort of punishment
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on December 05, 2007, 08:17:17 am
And then Mercy will have two hairy animals that she can change into, and then she can't have Sam's babies.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on December 05, 2007, 10:19:37 am
P.E.'s hit her half K mark!  500 posts!  But the question of Mercy being Changed has been poked at elsewhere, & Madame has no plans for that to happen.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on December 05, 2007, 10:55:27 am
i dontt know if mercy could be changed also since she already is preternatural also, kind of like the question of her becoming a vampire

congrats PE
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on December 06, 2007, 11:01:51 am
I didn't even realize that I had hit 500. Yay me!

And I know she can't get changed...but it would be funny.
Title: Re: children
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 03:42:00 pm
What I would like to see - a female Alpha who is really dominant. I would love to see how that would play out. I dont think there is one -perhaps because of the fact that women werewolves are rare. But it would be interesting to see one :)
Title: Re: children
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:43:06 pm
I want to see one too. But not in your face, more manipulative.
Title: Re: children
Post by: charmed on March 08, 2008, 03:44:55 pm
Yeah I'd like that too. We better hope the series gets extended so Patty can do all we want, lol
Title: Re: children
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:46:25 pm
We are not at all demanding ::)
Title: Re: children
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 03:47:10 pm
No we are just hungry for more because its a fantastic world to get lost in ;D
I think a female alpha would definitely be more manipulative - and would def be good at mind games as well. But she would also need that dominant factor as well and I suppose brute strength because I bet some weres would use that as a way to make her submit.
Title: Re: children
Post by: Pink Elephants on March 08, 2008, 03:48:53 pm
or she could be just plain mean. Remember little things tend to be vicious.
Title: Re: children
Post by: Has on March 08, 2008, 03:50:34 pm
Fight dirty is a great tactic for little vicious things - It sounds how Leah would fight ;D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: orannia on May 20, 2008, 04:58:24 pm
Thank you for the link Elle.

I've been thinking about the status of female werewolves and I think there are a couple of issues they have to overcome. Firstly, Bran (and I'm assuming a number of the other Alphas) were born and raised in a time in which females weren't considered to be equal with males. I'm not saying they don't treat them with respect, but it's more a question about how they truely see them. (Not sure if I'm quite making the point.) The Alphas are going to have to change how they view females in general.

Secondly, IIRC, females can't be lone wolves because the males won't let them? Now, is that an instinctive wolf response (which it seems to be) or a human response? If it is the former, then why? It's not like the females can carry to term (although they are fertile...and I still think nature will try and find a way around the issue of carrying to term...and I'm wondering if being changed before puberty, like Kyra, will make a difference). And if it is a human response...well then, that can be changed.

The problem I'm seeing is that there just aren't enough female werewolves to force a chance on numbers alone. I hope there will be a change though, as what Anna was forced to go through and what Kyra no doubt would have gone through with the wrong Alpha....why is such behaviour permitted by the Marrok? (Although that is an entirely different question).

orannia
Title: Female werewolf equality (started by orannia)
Post by: Cole on May 20, 2008, 06:03:39 pm
what does everyone think about the position of female werewolves in the pack. They take their position from their mate's position, but Honey (for example) is quite a dominant wolf. Does anyone ever think they might start a suffragette campaign for equality?
Title: Re: Female werewolf equality (started by orannia)
Post by: The Deposed King on May 21, 2008, 08:46:05 pm
what does everyone think about the position of female werewolves in the pack. They take their position from their mate's position, but Honey (for example) is quite a dominant wolf. Does anyone ever think they might start a suffragette campaign for equality?



I would say that we must keep in mind that these are human wolf mixes we are dealing with.  That said, in the wild its the Females who generally control the pack.  The Alpha male is 2nd only to the Alpha Female, but and this is a big but its rare for the alpha male to rule the pack, it can and has happened but its generally the female who rules.  Also in the wild, part of the female's control over the pack is reproductive rights and selecting her mate who becomes the alpha male... unless he's killed by a jealous rival.  However the alpha male has real authority in the pack.

With the werewolves its the opposite and all mixed around.  The males rule and the females take second string and only take position from their mate.  With Mercy there are some questions, if as has been supposed she acts like an Omega in that she helps bring out the human side of the werewolves and is able to combine this with the ability to reproduce, might be able to make some changes.  Based on both human logic and wolf instinct.  With the wolf I think her small size would provokes dominance issue/instincts... if she were to try some sort of sufferage move.  However I think that her ability to reproduce, if she actually does, will kick in a competing instinct and this will help counter the dominance/ smaller female size issue, since in the wild female wolves rule and only they are allowed to reproduce.

In short she has a chance with the pack she's in, adam's pack, to make a change for the females and to a lesser extent she has some influence with the marok.  But while I think a general minor impovement in the rights of females is possible over the north americas, I think its likely that the only real improvments will occur in Adams pack.  I expect great things in that isolated pack.  Or at least the attempt.

On a side note, Adam is 3rd or 4th in the North America.  If Mercy is willing to wait she has a real shot at affecting bigger changes with patiance and luck.  But we all know Mercy.  Patience is not her strong suit.  She knows her limits, but sometimes only because she's forcefully reminded.  I.E. small coyote with human strenght versus big bad werewolf with superhuman strenght.  Gile can take you many places but it only takes you so far.


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on May 26, 2008, 03:21:58 am
Thank you for the link Elle.

I've been thinking about the status of female werewolves and I think there are a couple of issues they have to overcome. Firstly, Bran (and I'm assuming a number of the other Alphas) were born and raised in a time in which females weren't considered to be equal with males. I'm not saying they don't treat them with respect, but it's more a question about how they truely see them. (Not sure if I'm quite making the point.) The Alphas are going to have to change how they view females in general.

I agree on how Bran views things.  I disagree that the Alphas have to change how they view things.  Oh certainly they'd have to change how they view things for more equality to occur.  But as has been stressed throughout the books the werewolf society is by its very nature and structure an unequal society.  I don't think there are enough internal forces to make them change.  Especially at the moment.  Also most changes come from the top down.  To have a big change you'd need Bran to bring it from the top down or else you'd have to have him willing to say its not any business I care to involve myself in and let the individual Alpha's make the changes.  Frankly with females being generally weaker fighters than the males and there being less of them, they are currently an impotent miniorty.  They have no leaders and they'd likely need at least an alpha female to force some changes on werewolf society.  Mercy can help.  But tradition has to be proven wrong in a case in point i.e. female alpha, not just biased in general.


Secondly, IIRC, females can't be lone wolves because the males won't let them? Now, is that an instinctive wolf response (which it seems to be) or a human response? If it is the former, then why? It's not like the females can carry to term (although they are fertile...and I still think nature will try and find a way around the issue of carrying to term...and I'm wondering if being changed before puberty, like Kyra, will make a difference). And if it is a human response...well then, that can be changed.

My understanding is that its mostly the males who take off from the packs.  The females will sometimes leave and join up with some roving males to form a new pack.  So that she can get out from under the domineering female alpha and actually have pups of her own.  Thus starting a new pack.

As far as protecting the females being instinctual... maybe it is.  It could be wolf instinct of human instinct magnified by the wolf way of veiwing thing maybe both.  Or it could also be part of the magic of the packs.  We know the Alpha influences the entire pack.  And just who are the pack alpha's of today?  The same hidebound men who were extensively socialized to believe down to their bones that the females were to be protected and sheltered and taken care of.  They were to throw themselves between women and harm and keep them sheltered.  Then throw in the less gentle outlook of yester year and you'll find the thinking that women are chattel or lesser (which in the physical fighting terms which are the literal life and death of pack life they most certainly are, baring rare exceptions like honey).  So if the pack takes its direction from its leaders and you throw in the magical dominance issue with more dominant wolves literally able to make other were's do things they bald faced just plain disagree with and you have a recipe for the way things are and have always been.

Doesn't mean its right.  Just means its self sustaining.

The problem I'm seeing is that there just aren't enough female werewolves to force a chance on numbers alone. I hope there will be a change though, as what Anna was forced to go through and what Kyra no doubt would have gone through with the wrong Alpha....why is such behaviour permitted by the Marrok? (Although that is an entirely different question).

orannia


I agree there need to be more female to help force a change.  But there also needs to be at least one female alpha IMO.  To prove that females can do it and hold it and lead packs too.  Otherwise its all just whistling in the wind and/or a give me wormed out of 'nice' alpha's who love their mates.  Not something earned by force.  Which is the only way to make things last within a pack.  Cause when a new hidebound male takes power the comeupance will be terrible as all those less dominant, physically weaker females and 'put back in their proper places' vis a vis pack tradition and hierarchy.

As for why Bran tolerates bad behavior towards women by out of control rules breaking Alpha's...  I think the problem in several fold.  First off I think that Bran personally doesn't like such behavior.  But lets ask ourselves how things likely happened during Bran's formative years as a wolf?  Does anyone expect anything other than out of control male behavior (compared to todays mores) in the times of old?  So he could be coming at things from different starting point.  Traditionally females are treated as such.  Good alpha's protect their females.  Bad alpha's who act within the bounds of tradition are personably objectionable but not breaking pack law.  Bran could kill and replace every alpha who he objected to of course.  But if he started doing that, even alpha's who agreed with him would wonder what's going to be his next pet peeve and are they going to be on his hit list next.  If he doesn't act carefully he's likely to start a revolution agianst him.  Which would not only endanger his pack and territory, inviting perhaps another Marrok to edge in but also if he won every battle killing off many of his alpha's and causeing massive pack upheavel.

Better perhaps to keep his feelers out and only kill alpha's who are breaking pack laws.  Then subtly or not so subtly steer the next replacement into better behavior while he's still consolidating power.

I could be all wet though so who knows?


I do have an interesting what if question.  What if a female alpha took power.  Would the males then take their position from their females.  And anyone without a female would be the property of the pack alpha?


The Deposed King


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenniwee on May 29, 2008, 08:50:24 pm
An all male harem?  What fun!!  ;D

Seriously though, I think DK makes a good point about Bran only being able to go after the Alphas who are breaking were law.  Charles says somewhere in A&O that his father needs him to keep his reputation for only going after those he knows are guilty (I think in reference to Justin).  And in regard to were law you again confront the issue of were vs. human instinct and which compels the rules that govern them.

I do hope we see some consequences for the wolves who were abusing Anna.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on May 29, 2008, 08:53:48 pm
An all male harem?  What fun!!  ;D

Oh yeah, sign me up.  ;)

I do hope we see some consequences for the wolves who were abusing Anna.

I agree. There should be consequences. That behavior is inexcusable.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on May 29, 2008, 09:07:32 pm
Maybe that's the main reason Bran showed up, to back Charles up on that?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jenniwee on May 29, 2008, 09:12:32 pm
Actually after reading the excerpt I'm half expecting him to turn around and do something quite awful to the wolf who hits Anna.  While being really calm and scary about it. 
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on June 07, 2008, 09:02:48 pm
Actually after reading the excerpt I'm half expecting him to turn around and do something quite awful to the wolf who hits Anna.  While being really calm and scary about it. 


My take is that is that other wolf pushes things any farther and his own alpha doesn't punish him severely for it the Marrock is likely to kill him.  I think Bran is just being careful not to act to soon, and giving the abusive wolf and his present alpha enough slack to hang with.  Plus he's intersted to see how the Anna handles and interacts with the situation.  Also Bran needs to be careful not to publically come between the new alpha and his control of the pack or he risks undermining the new alpha and causing even more upheavel later on.  But if the abusive wolf pushes things too far that consideration goes out the window and he'll become free to act for his absent sone Charles.


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on June 07, 2008, 09:39:52 pm
I seem to be missing something.  Other than what happened before Charles got to Chicago in 'Alpha & Omega', when was Anna hit?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Elle on June 07, 2008, 09:42:31 pm
The Cry Wolf excerpt has some of the weres pushing boundaries with Anna, if I remember correctly, it's been a while since I've read it.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on June 07, 2008, 10:00:02 pm
Well, she may have been abused, but she's still an Omega who didn't get the usual grounding; she could produce some surprises of her own. <BEG>
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: munkee on June 08, 2008, 06:17:14 am
Also, bran relies on all his subservient alphas to tell him the truth, hense the conferences, the updated pack lists, so on and so forth.
From what I remember, Bran came to chicago because charles was injured. He tends to show up like that. I also agree that bran didn't respond becasue the new alpha needs to assert his power over the young and stupid. Anna as omega and in the midst of changing packs per se, well, we girls tend to get a bit feisty with certian things.

I don't think Bran would be apposed to a female alpha. As long as she were a true alpha. I think he'd be violently apposed to an all female pack. As would I. I'd stop reading and tell everyone the series was trash. AND BEFORE y'all start getting snippy with me about it, realize what you're doing.
7 women trapped in a room for several months. Food, water, every comfort provided. End of several months, there would be deaths, constant hierarchy challenges and changes, friend/enemy ratio would change every hour or so and competition over the stupidest things would lead to serious confrentations. Add werewolf to every female. Watch the world explode.

A true female alpha would have to realize she couldn't control the pack on her own. Not possible. A succesful female alpha would be the one that could keep the peace and the pack happy.  A truely succesful female alpha would be one that didn't emulate that of the male's power, but focus on her own powers and encourage the strengths of the pack. Men are physically stonger, always have been always will be. Forever designd to protect and defend. Women designed to control the home and raise sucessful offspring. (oh boo hiss the ultrafeminist response, stay with me here...) WHY? We're better at it, we micromanage, we're paitent, we organize, comfort, we create calm around us and those we include in our families. A Perfectly sucessful female alpha would need the loyalty of her pack, her entire pack. And she's earn it with her strengths, not with a blustery show of power. Oh aye, she'd have to be strong (it'd be a nice plus), but it'd be up to the rest of her pack to keep the newbies in line and protect her domain. I know it kind of sounds decietful, but if it were completely sincere I think the pack might survive/flourish.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on June 08, 2008, 09:27:56 am
Deceitful?  All politics are, or are accused of it.  And male alphas also have to deal with politics already, consider the situation with Darryl & Warren, or dominant Honey & her lower ranked mate.
There wouldn't be any point in an all female werewolf pack, frankly.  And that's why I don't think Patty Briggs will write one.
Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on June 08, 2008, 09:33:24 am
There wouldn't be any point in an all female werewolf pack, frankly.  And that's why I don't think Patty Briggs will write one.
Just my opinion.

What about teh Amazons? A werewolf version would be interesting.

Why wouldn't there be a point to an all female werewolf pack? I don't think we are likely to see on, in Patty's books or any authors, but why not?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on June 08, 2008, 10:21:02 am
What advantage would it offer to anyone?  The shewolves?  They have to fight harder to try to maintain their independence, causing attrition, shrinking the pack.  There's the infighting Munkee spoke of - the 'leadership' training I was at yesterday, the speaker spent some time on how women are more often competing with each other than their male colleagues/competition, even when they're not really at a point where it's relevant.  They can't reproduce, so it's not a question of keeping control of the children & indoctrinating them to the 'right way' of thinking about male & female roles.  As infrequent as female weres are, the chances that they'll be happy with no men around is limited, and as was pointed out in one of Mary Janice Davidson's stories of her werewolves, a female werewolf is plenty strong enough to permanently cripple a normal human male during passionate embraces.  And they'll be at a point in their life cycle where sexual activity is attractive for a very long time.  Imagine (we'll use Munkee's number) 7 horny teen age girls with no outlet, associating that closely.  For 200 years.
Nope.
And what do male werewolves get from an all female pack?









Yeah.
What does anyone else get from it?





yeah, so; no, I don't see an all female pack as a viable entity.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: munkee on June 08, 2008, 03:57:04 pm
UGH and I almost forgot.

can you imagine a pack of female were's all at "that time of the month" AT THE SAME TIME????? I think that'd go beyond pms.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on June 08, 2008, 04:11:21 pm
Oh, great Ghu, yes, and women who associate closely do have the tendency to synchronize their reproductive cycles.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on June 08, 2008, 10:41:57 pm
Oh, great Ghu, yes, and women who associate closely do have the tendency to synchronize their reproductive cycles.

It'd be a great time to go on the war path though.  Or go out stomping the packs boundaries with a bunch of irritated were's, and watch the sparks fly if any intruders approach.  Turn all that agression into a wolf instinct approved way of dealing with it.  I.E. rip your enemies a new one.


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: DogPatch on June 09, 2008, 03:14:06 am

   I.E. rip your enemies a new one.


The Deposed King

I served in the Navy a few years ago and heard this one:

An all-female assault team was on it's first mission.  Just before the first shot against the all-male enemy, the Officer In Charge said, "Psst.  See those men over there with the guns?  Well, they said that your uniform makes your butt look big."  They won the engagement.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jackie on June 09, 2008, 04:37:27 pm
There is more diversity within individuals than there is between the sexes.  And, no, just as all women aren't good moms or homemakers or whatever, some of them are fantstic leaders and warriors.  I do think it is poosible to have a female pack, just not probable.  But more importantly, can the author make it work as a story?  I think Patty could, but I don't know if she would want to.  I which case it's moot.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on June 09, 2008, 08:21:15 pm
There is more diversity within individuals than there is between the sexes.  And, no, just as all women aren't good moms or homemakers or whatever, some of them are fantstic leaders and warriors.  I do think it is poosible to have a female pack, just not probable.  But more importantly, can the author make it work as a story?  I think Patty could, but I don't know if she would want to.  I which case it's moot.


I think its similar to the number of all female gangs out there.  I'm sure if you looked hard you could find some gang bangin women street thugs.  But by far the prevelant way things go is an all male or mixed male/female gang.  Sure this is a created world and these are super strong werewolves.  But the werewolves patty's created have additional goodies thrown in via instincts and such.

Be interesting to see how things go regardless.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: munkee on June 10, 2008, 07:05:11 am
I don't think patty would go for it. the only tension she could build on would be who would have the net power fight and that would get boring after a while. You need a love interest to keep tension and readers. Or at least speculation of a love interest.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Zealith on June 10, 2008, 09:43:42 pm
I'm afraid I have to agree with you king. Yes, I really love a good love interest, but I also love good adventure. And may I point out that an all female pack wouldn't need to be without romance. First of all, the male werewolves are allowed to take human mates, and manage to not badly hurt them, why shouldn't the females be able to? And of course there are more types of love then just one. Friend love could be interesting too.

However, I find the idea of an all female pack unlikely, mostly because the male werewolves seem too "protective" to let the females do this.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on June 10, 2008, 10:49:48 pm
I'm afraid I have to agree with you king. Yes, I really love a good love interest, but I also love good adventure. And may I point out that an all female pack wouldn't need to be without romance. First of all, the male werewolves are allowed to take human mates, and manage to not badly hurt them, why shouldn't the females be able to? And of course there are more types of love then just one. Friend love could be interesting too.

However, I find the idea of an all female pack unlikely, mostly because the male werewolves seem too "protective" to let the females do this.

But doesn't that just open its own can of worms?  These non-were males.  First off you've got these super strong women who can physically dominate their base rate human men.  Some men wouldn't care but many others would.  So there's going to be some serious heart ache out there for the female were's who are rejected by their men for being too strong and because they're too dominant (heck they're were's).  Still throwing away those losers (from the jilted were's perspective) the Alpha's got to hope her pack mates don't do more then get angry and yell at the losers.  Cause a body count would stink.

But lets say some of the females find genuinely good base human men who love them for the individual person who they are and support them fully and don't secretly desire to join the were world and all that good stuff.  So what happens when one of those stellar husbands gets caught in the crossfire of a pack war and is turned into a werewolf.  Or some female gets caught up in the heat of hte moment and the guy's infected.  Cause you just know its going to happen.

Is the pack going to stand on principle and kick the new interloper out of town?  I mean come on its a male were in a male free territory.  Are they going to require the werefemale to reject her husband or else be exiled from the pack?  Or are they going to change the rules and allow only human husbands who are later turned into were's be part of this 'all female pack'.  Kind of like the little rascals and their 'he-man women hater club' letting the girls join up too, cause they demanded entrance?

Also remember that men are more likely to survive the were transition than women for some mysterious reason.  With the men not wanting to kill their spouses there's a big case in point on why not.  With the women were's their male spouse while still at risk of dying from the turn is more likely to survive than a female spouse.

The Deposed King
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Zealith on June 11, 2008, 12:15:15 pm
I was just saying that the possibilities of romance were there. But you bring up some interesting points.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on June 11, 2008, 06:34:18 pm
Would you like me to split off the last few posts so you can discuss paranormal vs paranormal romances vs romances?
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on June 12, 2008, 08:59:16 pm
I was just saying that the possibilities of romance were there. But you bring up some interesting points.


Oh I certainly agree with you.  The possibilities for romance are most certainly out there.

Being in large part human though, I'd have to say that the possibilities of creating a lot of drama for yourself are out there too.

Just look at normal, quote 'relationships' end quote, and you'll see enough problems to have you pulling your hair out trying to keep track of everything.  Throw in werewolf as part of the equation and the potential for drama just keeps expanding.

'They left the werewolf world that had been created by males and for males and blazed their own trial to free themselves of patriarchal tyranny.  Fighting to make a place for themselves.'

Then someone decided to marry a human male, then that male was turned and they eventually had to chose between kicking out the unwanted male or losing one of the few female were's out there.  And someone I might add who is in many ways as close to you as your own sister.  Because as has been mentioned being part of a pack is like being part of an all inclusive family who looks out for you care for you and sticks its nose into every single part of your personal and private business and just won't ever leave you alone.  Because they care too much.  And just like with families sometimes their 'caring' isn't always of an appropriate or acceptable type.


The Deposed King


The Deposed King

Title: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Kyra_Athena on September 18, 2008, 05:32:26 am
I have been reading several posts about female werewolves and why they are so rare.

I have also read through the werewolf folktales and fairy tales, with the vast majority of stories being about male werewolves. 

Honey in particular strikes me as a good example of why some of the women may choose to not make the initial change, especially if they understood what they were becoming.  As beautiful and self-confident as Honey is, she considers herself a monster.  Was it the first book where Mercy asked her to transform into her wolf and she was reluctant for that reason?

This may sound off topic, but many women choose suicide methods that "don't mess up their faces".  Very few women choose a gunshot wound to the head, but often overdose.  Becoming a werewolf would be the ultimate way to mess up your face. 

The whole domination and rape concept which occurs with new female werewolves is quite brutal.  There were hints of it from Honey's perspective, but Anna's experience was harrowing.  Was there ever any mention of this occurring to Leah? Constant rape as a new werewolf could permanently warp, I would assume.

I don't think physical strength is what matters in this situation.  Women's pain threshhold is often higher than men in actual studies, which goes along with the pains of childbirth and all that.  Certain ethnic groups have higher thresholds, which goes along with the cultural and class expectations of pain and what is socially acceptable. 

Of course, the beast in its initial transformation is in control of the process.  In a way, it seems that it would take a stronger will to determine death is better than becoming an immortal.  It's that Hamlet quote which is used with potential suicides, "To be or not to be". 

The initial transformation may affect each individual's genetics as well, with some individuals having a particular characteristic which makes the change occur and if you don't have it, you just die.  Suppose female humans have less of these genes than the male population at large.  If this were to be "true", the male werewolves may start trying to find the human females who may become werewolves. 

Some of the transformed seem to become unhinged at the transformation while others were always that way and just became worse.   A little off and kind of mean, becoming raving lunatic serial killer.  Anyone who deliberately seeks out a werewolf to be attacked with the hope of being transformed has to be nuts.  If you were attacked in such an extreme way, even if you didn't become a werewolf, it seems reasonable that at the least you'd have post-traumatic stress disorder.

These are just some thoughts on the matter.     
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: wroth on November 04, 2008, 12:54:35 am
I have been reading several posts about female werewolves and why they are so rare.

I have also read through the werewolf folktales and fairy tales, with the vast majority of stories being about male werewolves. 

Honey in particular strikes me as a good example of why some of the women may choose to not make the initial change, especially if they understood what they were becoming.  As beautiful and self-confident as Honey is, she considers herself a monster.  Was it the first book where Mercy asked her to transform into her wolf and she was reluctant for that reason?

This may sound off topic, but many women choose suicide methods that "don't mess up their faces".  Very few women choose a gunshot wound to the head, but often overdose.  Becoming a werewolf would be the ultimate way to mess up your face. 

I just re-read the section you're talking about (Blood Bound, Chapter 6, pg  116) and I didn't get the impression that was Honey's view of herself at all. She simply seems reluctant to show a stranger that she is a werewolf especially since she's not been outed at that time yet.

Quote
I don't think physical strength is what matters in this situation.  Women's pain threshhold is often higher than men in actual studies, which goes along with the pains of childbirth and all that.  Certain ethnic groups have higher thresholds, which goes along with the cultural and class expectations of pain and what is socially acceptable. 

Of course, the beast in its initial transformation is in control of the process.  In a way, it seems that it would take a stronger will to determine death is better than becoming an immortal.  It's that Hamlet quote which is used with potential suicides, "To be or not to be". 

It could be entirely linked to the idea that men are believed to be the more violent and beast-like of the two sexes. It could be that men can show that dark side seemingly easier than women so in stories it's more believable that the werewolf is male.

Quote
The initial transformation may affect each individual's genetics as well, with some individuals having a particular characteristic which makes the change occur and if you don't have it, you just die.  Suppose female humans have less of these genes than the male population at large.  If this were to be "true", the male werewolves may start trying to find the human females who may become werewolves. 

Heh, this reminds me of George Lucas' midichlorians ret-con to how the Force is present in some people. And I apologise for the nerdiness of that comment.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Patti L. on November 04, 2008, 08:55:53 am
No worries, we're pretty much a nerd-herd here.
I'm thinking it's more a y characteristic, so the xy take it better than the xx of females, and you have to have the recessive in both the x & the y - or the rare 2nd x- to let it take.  Just a guess, based on the gender bias.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: OTenshi on November 04, 2008, 03:39:02 pm
The whole domination and rape concept which occurs with new female werewolves is quite brutal.  There were hints of it from Honey's perspective, but Anna's experience was harrowing.  Was there ever any mention of this occurring to Leah? Constant rape as a new werewolf could permanently warp, I would assume.

There's already a discussion thread on rape, but I wanted to mention this here since she brought it up.  Not all female weres are raped, I get the impression that Anna was a truely extreme exception.  Rape and abuse were used to make her submissive, a planned brutilization to stabilize an age crazy mate.  I have noticed allusions to others being raped, but it didn't seem any more than normal human statistics.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Patti L. on November 04, 2008, 04:06:37 pm
We have no clue, for instance, to Leah's past with regard to that.  I don't think she went through it.  Personal guess there.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Carradee on December 04, 2008, 08:53:57 am
Women also have hormones.  I'm guessing that hormone levels affect Change survival.

Which brings up the issue of PCOS, a genetic condition where women end up with male hormones, which I would suspect would increase female chances of survival for the Change.

Okay, so 5-10% of women have it, but most only have mild forms that don't get all the hormone problems.  And those who do have it bad would mainly be affected by age 30-40, assuming the heart disease, diabetes, and cancers that they're high risk for hadn't killed 'em yet.

*glances aside*  You learn a fair bit about hormones when yours like going berserk.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Patti L. on December 04, 2008, 10:05:24 am
I never bothered to learn much about them, but I also didn't get any tests that would have told me if I had any such thing.  Ah, the welfare medical system.  Just treat the symptoms and get 'em out the door.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Tambayo on December 04, 2008, 11:29:09 am
Women also have hormones.  I'm guessing that hormone levels affect Change survival.

Which brings up the issue of PCOS, a genetic condition where women end up with male hormones, which I would suspect would increase female chances of survival for the Change.

Okay, so 5-10% of women have it, but most only have mild forms that don't get all the hormone problems.  And those who do have it bad would mainly be affected by age 30-40, assuming the heart disease, diabetes, and cancers that they're high risk for hadn't killed 'em yet.

*glances aside*  You learn a fair bit about hormones when yours like going berserk.
The werewolf virus has to get past the immune system to be able to change the person bitten. In a woman there is also a barrier to prevent overflow/exchange between her immune system and that of a possible baby.  Could it be that this serves as a second barrier the virus has to get past?

Regarding female werewolves and rape : an unmated female were belongs to the pack alpha. I'm guessing that if the alpha is already mated that would just mean that the others get a keep off sign unless the alpha or the woman herself gives permission. For unmated alpha's i think it depends on the personality, and we know not all of them are going to ask permission of the woman or accept a no.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Has on December 04, 2008, 01:35:28 pm
I think it also depends on the alpha's background- Mercy comments that many of them are old and therefore have sensibilities that date back 100s of years so they wouldnt view women as their equals.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Carradee on December 05, 2008, 06:06:04 am
I'm thinking it's more a y characteristic, so the xy take it better than the xx of females, and you have to have the recessive in both the x & the y - or the rare 2nd x- to let it take.  Just a guess, based on the gender bias.

I think this is a good theory.

But what about XY females?  (They exist, you know--and are perfectly normal.  Except for the detail that they don't have the backup X to fill in where theirs are defective.)  Would an XY female therefore survive?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Zealith on December 05, 2008, 02:55:39 pm
I think you're thinking of women with multiple x's and a y, like XXY. If there is only one x one y, they are male. Just like there are some women with onle one x. An interesting point though.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Carradee on December 08, 2008, 07:02:56 am
If there is only one x one y, they are male.

WRONG!

If something messes up at the point where testosterone is supposed to flood the system--either with the sending or receiving of testosterone, you're female despite the XY.  Or if something's wrong with the... SRY factor on the Y gene, I think it's called.

My first major was biology, genetics emphasis.  I and several friends have rare genetics issues, too, so I'm a bit more informed about all this jazz than you might think.  :)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Zealith on December 08, 2008, 02:05:58 pm
*shrugs* I guess it is possible I remember wrong, though we covered it just a month ago or so in gen bio.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, insane wolves
Post by: Carradee on December 09, 2008, 04:55:57 am
*shrugs* I guess it is possible I remember wrong, though we covered it just a month ago or so in gen bio.

General biology doesn't give all the details.  Genetics classes get into more exceptions.  :)
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Kiomey on May 04, 2009, 11:13:51 pm
Question/random thought process for my lit paper (no rush on responses) and cause I'm curious:
Mercy is not defined by the pack laws/traditions of heirarchy right? So, she's escaping her upbringing from a were-society by choosing a non-typical career for a woman, avoiding marriage/mating and motherhood because it's her choice, not a man's and not a wolf's, not her 'animal instincts'.
 So by my definition she makes a great female lead advocating for feminist ideals.
I considered some female authors having female shape-shifting leads, this series included in my consideration, and found the theme/idea to be to inform the reader of the contemporary views of feminism by way of dire opposition. The battle of natures (which Mercy is nearly excluded from due to her lack of warring internally with 'the beast' or within pack dominance) between their characters internal struggles with 'were' instincts,  is a prime way to express feminism without shoving it down the reader’s throats.  That is to say, by having a strong female lead who acknowledges gender inequalities and works against them, the authors make their point clearly to readers, young and old, without screaming 'femi-nazi' and therefore having the theme of gender inequalities in social, political, sexual and intellectual venues understood as a rational issue.

^^; *sighs* well... I suppose this make little to no sense, since I'm writing this at 3 in the morning and the paper isn't even half hashed out yet... Thanks to any and all who read it though
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on May 05, 2009, 06:18:24 am
Well, to start, Mercy didn't originally choose to be a mechanic; she took her degree in history, and came to the Tri-Cities to become a history teacher, she fell into the mechanic job, and eventually realized she wouldn't give it up for a job as a history teacher if one was offered to her.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on May 06, 2009, 01:36:52 pm
Isn't that what happens to everybody?

My mom went to college to be a doctor and now she's a computer genius

My dad went to college to study fish and he's a carpenter
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: ladylynx on May 06, 2009, 03:39:33 pm
Also I think Charles had a little to do with Mercy being a mechanic as well. After her accident Bran made Mercy spend a whole summer learning how to work on cars as punishment for scaring them. But Patti is right. Mercy didn't become a mechanic because she went to school for it, but because Mercy couldn't get a job teaching. Besides as much trouble Mercy gets in. Could you see her going to school with bruises and broken bones? The kids would think she was being mistreated by her dates and such.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on May 06, 2009, 07:11:00 pm
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee23/goddesssaint/lostthread.gif)
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on May 25, 2009, 05:34:10 pm
Question/random thought process for my lit paper (no rush on responses) and cause I'm curious:
Mercy is not defined by the pack laws/traditions of heirarchy right? So, she's escaping her upbringing from a were-society by choosing a non-typical career for a woman, avoiding marriage/mating and motherhood because it's her choice, not a man's and not a wolf's, not her 'animal instincts'.
 So by my definition she makes a great female lead advocating for feminist ideals.
I considered some female authors having female shape-shifting leads, this series included in my consideration, and found the theme/idea to be to inform the reader of the contemporary views of feminism by way of dire opposition. The battle of natures (which Mercy is nearly excluded from due to her lack of warring internally with 'the beast' or within pack dominance) between their characters internal struggles with 'were' instincts,  is a prime way to express feminism without shoving it down the reader’s throats.  That is to say, by having a strong female lead who acknowledges gender inequalities and works against them, the authors make their point clearly to readers, young and old, without screaming 'femi-nazi' and therefore having the theme of gender inequalities in social, political, sexual and intellectual venues understood as a rational issue.

^^; *sighs* well... I suppose this make little to no sense, since I'm writing this at 3 in the morning and the paper isn't even half hashed out yet... Thanks to any and all who read it though


The thing you have to be careful about is preaching.  No guy wants to sit down and read a book that tells him he's unconsciously oppressing the main character.

Just have your characters go out and presume equality of treatment.  When they are shat upon by overbearing males (see real life equiv.) they can kick butt and take names.  In short don't have your characters take any guff but if you make the story about oppression and the inevitable back lash then it'll likely get too preachy.  Which is okay if you just want a nitch audience.


Also on the Mercy point about not being defined by the wolf hierarchy.  I'd say all her life she's both tried to fit in with the were wolves, as they were the only group she was somewhat like, and at the same time rebelled against cause she didn't want to deal with an alpha's neurotic control issues.  I'd say if anything her coyote heritage with its immunity to magic and magic control, would seem to indicate that her resistance to an alpha might be instinctual or unconscious.

However now that she has joined a pack as the alpha's mate, she is not longer undefined by the pack hierarchy.  By joining the pack, and up right at the top of its structure, she has in some manner willingly submitted herself to the pack hierarchy and its traditions.  Now in native american magic tradition the coyote was a trickster and agent of change, and mercy sure seems to bring change with her.  So sparks will fly.






The Deposed King
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: ladylynx on October 08, 2009, 04:16:15 pm
I think Mercy and Anna might convince the Marrok and the other packs that there are Alpha female wolves. All we now is for some female Alpha from another pack petitioning the Marrok for the rights to the pack she is in.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 08, 2009, 04:23:47 pm
Yeah but didn't Mercy say that the were's need to catch up with modern time?  Maybe female alphas are there but just aren't recognized for what they are.

I don't think it is merely a matter of being behind the times. Wolf instinct appears to drive a lot of this behavior and that won't change.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: Zealith on October 08, 2009, 04:35:34 pm
That and Anna isn't an alpha. It's not in her nature and she has no desire to be. Mercy is an outsider looking in. Neither are good places to be if you expect to change the world.
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: deadfrog on October 08, 2009, 07:27:21 pm
Yeah but didn't Mercy say that the were's need to catch up with modern time?  Maybe female alphas are there but just aren't recognized for what they are.

Would it be even possible for a werewolf not to recognize his own alpha? After all, the alpha holds the pack bonds. Every pack member is connected by this bond to the alpha, and through the alpha to the rest of the pack. In a way, the alpha is the pack. Without an alpha at its center, there is no pack. If there are any female alphas, their pack will certainly know. And even other wolves must be able to identify a pack leader.

I don't think it is merely a matter of being behind the times. Wolf instinct appears to drive a lot of this behavior and that won't change.

Yes. But I don't think that we've been given evidence so far that wolf instinct would rule out female alphas. There just aren't that many female wolves around. The Seattle pack does not have any female members. The older wolves (both male and female) have been born, and grown up, in times when a woman's purpose in life was to find a husband to provide for her, and leave important decisions to men. The belief in male superiority may be even more deeply ingrained in their human selves than in their wolf instincts.


 
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: alan on October 09, 2009, 11:10:44 am
That and Anna isn't an alpha. It's not in her nature and she has no desire to be. Mercy is an outsider looking in. Neither are good places to be if you expect to change the world.

Honey is.  Mercy said she was more dominant and she took down Darryl a couple times.
Then there's Sage who's up there on dominance.  And Kara who we don't know about yet.  Those are just the ones we know about. bOuNcY
Title: Re: Leah vs. Mercy & Anna
Post by: deadfrog on October 09, 2009, 01:54:08 pm
That and Anna isn't an alpha. It's not in her nature and she has no desire to be. Mercy is an outsider looking in. Neither are good places to be if you expect to change the world.

Honey is.  Mercy said she was more dominant and she took down Darryl a couple times.
Then there's Sage who's up there on dominance.  And Kara who we don't know about yet.  Those are just the ones we know about. bOuNcY

I think there is a misunderstanding here: Honey is not an alpha, no more than Darryl is. Honey is a dominant, and more dominant than Darryl.  

And I may be mistaken, but wasn't it mentioned that Sage is submissive?   
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Zealith on October 09, 2009, 02:19:54 pm
Anna thought Sage was more dominant then Leah until Leah made her back down (with Bran's power) So I'd say she's dominant. But not an alpha.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Ellyll on October 09, 2009, 04:04:53 pm
Nobody's an Alpha until they have a pack.  The dominant ones just have the potential to be Alphas.

And, yeah, Sage was more dominant than Leah.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: alan on October 10, 2009, 12:32:57 pm
And, yeah, Sage was more dominant than Leah.

Woot for Sage!!
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: YuleRule on October 11, 2009, 03:49:52 am
With women, it gets all confused with natural dominance, husband dominance, and Omeganess, which doesn't chane because of a mate. I'm not sure how far a revolution can go, because so much of it could just be the werewolve-iness of the woman taking her rank from her husband, and I don't think that will ever change. That is not human politics, that' simply werewolve instinct/nature.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: deadfrog on October 11, 2009, 01:40:22 pm
And then there is the difference between dominance and position in the pack. Dominance is not the only factor that determines a wolf's rank in the pack. This does not only apply to females.

Other wolves hide their own dominance as well. Very dominant older wolves may do this in order to join a new pack, which is why many alphas don't like old wolves joining their packs (according to Charles in Cry Wolf). Darryl was rather rattled to find out that Warren (Warren's wolf, at any rate) was dominant to him. Darryl said that the pack would never accept a gay wolf as second in command. I don't know if that is true because Darryl was obviously waiting for Warren to challenge him for position. Adam thought Warren's control too good for this to happen. So it is not the wolf hiding his dominance but the man hiding the dominance of his wolf, a matter of control
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pendle on October 12, 2009, 10:13:48 am
I thought it more Warren not wanting the hastle.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 14, 2009, 01:52:51 pm

I'd like to think that Kara Beckwith will be an advocate for change in the were society as well. Who knows...maybe she has the potential to be the first.

That's a lot of responsibility for a thirteen year old.  :)




As infrequent as female weres are, the chances that they'll be happy with no men around is limited, and as was pointed out in one of Mary Janice Davidson's stories of her werewolves, a female werewolf is plenty strong enough to permanently cripple a normal human male during passionate embraces. 


Or some female gets caught up in the heat of the moment and the guy's infected.  Cause you just know its going to happen.

I think you two are getting a bit too far into Laurell Hamilton territory. The only example we've seen of a female werewolf having sex is Anna and she isn't exactly a wild thing.  Male weres have sex with human women without inflicting injuries, I can't see why the ladies wouldn't be able to do the same. At worst some sheets and pillows would suffer.
And for extra care there's always handcuffs.  >D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Elle on October 14, 2009, 01:57:39 pm

I'd like to think that Kara Beckwith will be an advocate for change in the were society as well. Who knows...maybe she has the potential to be the first.

That's a lot of responsibility for a thirteen year old.  :)

It is isnt' it? ;) I should have clarified in that I was hoping to see the possiblity of her becoming the first female Alpha when she was an adult. I think she's at the stage now where she's just learning control of what it is to be a were. Who knows what the future holds though.


Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on October 14, 2009, 04:07:09 pm
Perhaps great things lie ahead

*Cue dramatic music*
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on October 14, 2009, 04:23:22 pm
Yeah, Deposed King, out of context, that looks strange; this goes back to this ENTIRE post about the idea of an all female werewolf pack.  I wasn't specifically saying that no female were could have a non-were lover safely; I was saying that as an entire female pack, they wouldn't have the option to try out males who were up for everything they could do, with whom they could let loose in the throes of passion.  Furthermore, the males would be all instinct driven and likely to be deadly in antagonism to humans who came in as lovers to the female werewolves.

What advantage would it offer to anyone?  The shewolves?  They have to fight harder to try to maintain their independence, causing attrition, shrinking the pack.  There's the infighting Munkee spoke of - the 'leadership' training I was at yesterday, the speaker spent some time on how women are more often competing with each other than their male colleagues/competition, even when they're not really at a point where it's relevant.  They can't reproduce, so it's not a question of keeping control of the children & indoctrinating them to the 'right way' of thinking about male & female roles.  As infrequent as female weres are, the chances that they'll be happy with no men around is limited, and as was pointed out in one of Mary Janice Davidson's stories of her werewolves, a female werewolf is plenty strong enough to permanently cripple a normal human male during passionate embraces.  And they'll be at a point in their life cycle where sexual activity is attractive for a very long time.  Imagine (we'll use Munkee's number) 7 horny teen age girls with no outlet, associating that closely.  For 200 years.
Nope.
And what do male werewolves get from an all female pack?









Yeah.
What does anyone else get from it?





yeah, so; no, I don't see an all female pack as a viable entity.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: wiccanmoonchild on October 15, 2009, 05:14:26 am
It may be neat to have a female pack that sort of worked like a lions pride.  The women are in charge, -there are only a few to as little as one male, and the females do the hunting as well.  

. . .just a thought.



Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: gryphon340 on October 15, 2009, 05:20:04 am
I voltuneer to be the one male.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: wiccanmoonchild on October 15, 2009, 05:41:57 am
I voltuneer to be the one male.

 LOL . . . I bet you would!
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: gryphon340 on October 15, 2009, 05:49:35 am
 :D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Patti L. on October 15, 2009, 08:38:28 am
Actually, it's usually 2 or 3 males, usually brothers or half brothers from the same original pride, watching each others' backs.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: jackie on October 15, 2009, 08:56:57 am
That sounds friendlier and better for all involved.  Imagine if lions worked the same way humans do, and their estrus cycles matched up with their pride mates.  all those kittens all at once...
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on October 15, 2009, 11:26:51 am
The PMS would be hell.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Zealith on October 15, 2009, 01:37:32 pm
(http://icanhascheezburger.wordpress.com/files/2008/08/funny-pictures-girl-lion-yells-at-boy-lion.jpg)
That would be fun to see sometime. :D
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: alan on October 15, 2009, 03:06:59 pm
LOL!!  That's kinda what my mum looks like some days.

I voltuneer to be the one male.

 LOL . . . I bet you would!
Somehow I'm not surprised you'd volunteer.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 15, 2009, 03:10:22 pm
I voltuneer to be the one male.

 LOL . . . I bet you would!

That's not even naughty. Imagine what image this brings forth in the male mind:

Imagine (we'll use Munkee's number) 7 horny teen age girls with no outlet, associating that closely.  For 200 years.

Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 15, 2009, 03:37:20 pm
To get back to the main topic, I don't see where the system is unfair. I mean, overall, not fair to every particular individual. Yes, some women get held back when the mate with lower ranking males, but other get a boost when they bond with a higher ranked male.

Poor Honey, so unfair to be held back by her mating with Peter. But I haven't seen any complaints of the unfairness involved in Anna being jumped over nearly everyone's head just because she said "I do" to Charles. Asil has his knickers in a twist because he has to take orders from a 'kid' like Charles. Now imagine how in HG Angus and Tom might feel at being bossed by a twenty three year old who was probably playing with Barbies a dozen years ago. They handled it a lot better because they like Anna but it didn't have to be that way. If they had disliked the situation, too bad, guys, the rules are the rules.

The unfairness seems to be equally spread around.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on October 15, 2009, 03:51:32 pm
Ok, what about the female wolves who are unmated? They are at the very bottom of the pack. And don't forget, that even the mated females are still not equal. The Alpha gives orders to the male members and the unmated females, then mated males pass those orders onto their mates, who are expected to obey. They don't even receive their orders directly but secondhand!
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 15, 2009, 03:56:37 pm
I didn't say the system was perfect, only that it was roughly fair. And the going through the mate thing is probably meant as a courtesy, though it might not always be received that way.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: alan on October 15, 2009, 03:57:47 pm
I don't know if i had anyone bossing me around because i'm a woman there'd be some serious @ss kicking going on. 8)
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on October 15, 2009, 03:59:49 pm
I didn't say the system was perfect, only that it was roughly fair. And the going through the mate thing is probably meant as a courtesy, though it might not always be received that way.

The way Mercy described it, it didn't sound like a courtesy. :P
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Mister from Dresdenland on October 15, 2009, 04:08:43 pm
And Mercy's perceptions are always accurate?

Oh, and the bottom of the pack position looks to be a way to keep them out of dominance fights, which tend to be lethal. I suspect the female weres tend to average a considerably longer lifespan than the males because of it.

Even if they were to relax that rule, how many women would be willing to risk their lives just so someone else would have to look down when their eyes meet? Only guys are that stupid!  9)

I don't think the perks of being ranked ahead of someone are really worth all that much, except for the Alpha and maybe his second.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Avarel on October 17, 2009, 12:37:40 pm
I didn't say the system was perfect, only that it was roughly fair. And the going through the mate thing is probably meant as a courtesy, though it might not always be received that way.

The way Mercy described it, it didn't sound like a courtesy. :P

this is mercy's POV, which despite her experience, is that of an outsider. we have an interpretation of a translation here, kinda like a game of telephone.
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Pink Elephants on October 17, 2009, 02:39:26 pm
I LOVE TELEPHONE!!!!!!
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: The Deposed King on October 31, 2009, 02:00:35 pm
Actually, it's usually 2 or 3 males, usually brothers or half brothers from the same original pride, watching each others' backs.


Preface that statement with 'now' as in the past 2-3 decades and you're spot on.  Thing is 50 years ago the multiple male thing was limited to a small geographical area.  My understanding is that scientists think we are seeing evolution happening before our eyes with the multiple male thing.

And yeah its 2-4 males.  Normally brothers but they did show that males get isolated into all male areas and form coalitions with other males there, mostly but not always with males they grew up around.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on October 31, 2009, 02:02:20 pm
Cool; you know more about it than I do.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: The Deposed King on October 31, 2009, 02:20:23 pm
Cool; you know more about it than I do.


Too much living wild or whatever channel it is. LOL  O) bOuNcY



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Josi on December 22, 2009, 02:06:08 pm
I don't think there will ever be a female run pack.  As humans we give women the same rights as men (well in most places).  But as my Dad once said "Men being protective of women and children is how we keep our population up", he's not ashamed of being sexist.  Most animals i read/watch about have the males are incharge, mostly being that they can be stronger and are able to protect the others.  So the wolves are probably always going to be running on insticts with this. Bran might be able to recognized that a female is dominate but he'd never let them be a lone wolf or be in a position where he couldn't protect them, either by guarding them himself or entrusting them to another strong male.  The part that bothers me is in cases where the female takes position from her mate and the power part.  I understand the alpha's mate being second and being able to draw on his power, but dislike that they can abuse it.  Also sad that when there is a strong female, like Honey, they aren't allowed to be higher ranked, she's probably one of the few females that could take most of the males being that she "fights dirty" and is tuff.  Being that packs seem to run with force probably wont happen *sigh*  :(
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: wiccanmoonchild on December 23, 2009, 07:08:17 am
The absolute fun of fiction is that it can be manipulated and formed.  I think that it would be brave of a writer to try.  It would also open a whole new path to write and get excited about if a female pack were to emerge. 

Take a look at the Amazons.  Whether they were real Warrior Women or Ancient Myth, one could have been turned to were.  The stories of beautiful and bloodthirsty female warrior women thundering across arid battlefields have been told, re-told and speculated over for thousands of years and by many cultures.  Why not make an Amazon Were Warrior Pack.....  ;)

Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Josi on December 23, 2009, 10:47:26 am
ooo Amazon were warrior women, Sounds neat!  :D
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: CarolKat on December 23, 2009, 05:07:30 pm
Could have a place in Alpha and Omega. Since the South American pack had accepted Bran's solution on the bringing out of the wolves.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: The Deposed King on December 24, 2009, 09:52:42 pm
I don't think there will ever be a female run pack.  As humans we give women the same rights as men (well in most places).  But as my Dad once said "Men being protective of women and children is how we keep our population up", he's not ashamed of being sexist.  Most animals i read/watch about have the males are incharge, mostly being that they can be stronger and are able to protect the others.  So the wolves are probably always going to be running on insticts with this. Bran might be able to recognized that a female is dominate but he'd never let them be a lone wolf or be in a position where he couldn't protect them, either by guarding them himself or entrusting them to another strong male.  The part that bothers me is in cases where the female takes position from her mate and the power part.  I understand the alpha's mate being second and being able to draw on his power, but dislike that they can abuse it.  Also sad that when there is a strong female, like Honey, they aren't allowed to be higher ranked, she's probably one of the few females that could take most of the males being that she "fights dirty" and is tuff.  Being that packs seem to run with force probably wont happen *sigh*  :(


I'd caveat this by saying perhaps there will never be a female run 'north american' pack.  But just as there are all female gang banging street thugs.  I'd think that in one of the disorganized continents.  Europe, South America,... Africa maybe?  An all female pack might be able to get going.  Just like all female gangs, they would be smallish and of marginal power or prestige, but I think its possible.  the main thing mitigating against it would seem to be the relative dearth of female were's.  They seem such a minority of the wolf pack members.




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on December 24, 2009, 10:00:36 pm
Exactly, DK, and that is why the extremely male dominated werewolf society would not (in my opinion, your mileage may vary) allow it.  They would forcibly disband the pack and make the females join other packs, eventually making the females take mates from those packs.

Other kinds of were creatures that are more matriarchal might have female run or all female packs/prides, or whatever.  Among Raptors, the females are usually 1/3 to 2/3 bigger than the males, and as I've learned from Reptyle, one of the members here, the same is true of snakes of some breeds.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: The Deposed King on December 24, 2009, 10:15:35 pm
Exactly, DK, and that is why the extremely male dominated werewolf society would not (in my opinion, your mileage may vary) allow it.  They would forcibly disband the pack and make the females join other packs, eventually making the females take mates from those packs.

Other kinds of were creatures that are more matriarchal might have female run or all female packs/prides, or whatever.  Among Raptors, the females are usually 1/3 to 2/3 bigger than the males, and as I've learned from Reptyle, one of the members here, the same is true of snakes of some breeds.

I'd stick with mammals and go hyeana as an example.  They are strictly matriarchal in structure.

I'd agree that over time the female pack would likely face many open challenges and if they survived those, several century long (if necessary) plots to kill their leaders and break them up or absorb them into another pack.

But what do you think would happen if an all female pack moved to the southern border, staked out a territory and petitioned to join as another pack under the Marrok?  He might take them.  Of course if a nearby male alpha challenged their alpha and won... well we don't know the full rules and customs regarding challenges and taking over packs and such and Bran might say the same rules apply to the female pack as the male/mixed ones.  And since females are stated in the books to be inferior fighters as a rule compared to male ones....  I don't know.

An all female pack would be a tough row to hoe.  Head down, viciously protect your territory and live where no one else wants to might work.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on December 24, 2009, 10:20:45 pm
In a "cut off your nose to spite your face" way.
I wouldn't want to be part of a female pack that was taken over by a male alpha.  Given
1. the fact that technically all unmated females belong to the alpha, and
2. werewolf vitality means that at no point does a male werewolf taper off to "once a week or longer" sex urges.  :X
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: pfyffe on December 25, 2009, 07:55:29 am
Maybe I've been reading wrong, but I don't think it's possible for there to be an all-female pack in the Mercy/A&O world without major changes by Patty. It's been made plain on many occasions that female wolves are rare because the transition from human to were is harder for them to survive. I seem to recall that age may be a factor as well (something about human females not being able to make the transition past a certain age, but maybe I'm mixing up my were series). Bran's Marrok Pack has only 3 females: Leah, Sage, Anna. I believe at one point Mercy puts the number of Adam's Columbia Basin Pack wolves at around 30--of those, the female weres are Auriele, Honey, Mary Jo (so again, only 3 females or 1% of the total Pack). Angus's Emerald City Pack has no females. Leo's Chicago Pack only had 2 when it existed (Isabelle, Anna). Patty never mentioned anything about the gender make-up of Jamie's Chicago pack, nor of Everett's Houston pack. And the only other female were, Kara Beckworth (temporarily with the Marrok Pack while she learns control) belongs to a pack somewhere in Virginia. The logical conclusion is that most "mates" are human since there are very few female weres.

So, given that the ratio of male were to female were is extremely lopsided, and couple that with the territorial/protective tendencies of male weres generally, I see no indication that there could ever be enough female weres in existence to form a all-female pack in the Mercy/A&O universe.

 8)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on December 25, 2009, 08:18:22 am
Quote
I believe at one point Mercy puts the number of Adam's Columbia Basin Pack wolves at around 30--of those, the female weres are Auriele, Honey, Mary Jo (so again, only 3 females or 1% of the total Pack).

No, dear.  3 would be TEN percent of a pack of 30. 

Also there WERE other females in the Chicago pack before Isabella killed them.

Are you 100% sure that there are only Leah, Sage, and Anna in the Aspen Creek pack?  Or they simply THE ONLY ONES WE'VE SEEN?  Is there not mention in Moon Called of her influincing the other females of the pack?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: pfyffe on December 25, 2009, 09:44:23 am
Quote
I believe at one point Mercy puts the number of Adam's Columbia Basin Pack wolves at around 30--of those, the female weres are Auriele, Honey, Mary Jo (so again, only 3 females or 1% of the total Pack).

No, dear.  3 would be TEN percent of a pack of 30. 

Also there WERE other females in the Chicago pack before Isabella killed them.

Are you 100% sure that there are only Leah, Sage, and Anna in the Aspen Creek pack?  Or they simply THE ONLY ONES WE'VE SEEN?  Is there not mention in Moon Called of her influincing the other females of the pack?

The 1% was a typo (my math is not THAT bad!) and I was thinking only of the ones that are still alive (which is why I didn't mention newly-turned Kara-the-mercenary who died in Adam's house, though I realize now that I named Isabelle and I probably shouldn't have).

The quick answer is no, I'm not 100% sure. This is all just speculation and we're all just voicing our opinions based on what we understand from reading the books. I assume I'm entitled to my own flawed opinion in this forum, but if you want me to preface my posts each time with IMHO, no worries.

As for Leah influencing other female pack members, yes I do remember that reference ... but 6 books later (if you count both series) and still no new female personalities--so I chalked that up to the other explanation in one of the books that although human female mates are "considered" pack, they aren't brought into the pack with flesh-and-blood because the magic won't work on them. Of course, it's always possible that Patty will include some new females, her preogative as author of the series, but the point I was trying to make is that--IMHO--Patty seems to like keeping female werewolves as a rarity among the species. Ten percent of a population of 3,000+ wolves is really not a lot of females! Given what she's offered us in the past about the process of making humans into weres, I'm taking her at her word (for now) that females don't do well with the transition.

Now, if in one of the next books a female pack makes itself known, I trust that Patty will explain their existence sufficiently to keep me a believer in the logic of her verse ... she has so far!

Cheers!

#;-)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on December 25, 2009, 03:24:13 pm
Oh, I know about those typos!   9)  I blush at some I've committed.

The amount we've seen of the Aspen Creek pack is very, very minimal, so I have no idea yet if there are more females than Leah, Sage, and now Anna in it.  I'm not going to push to insist that there are more, I'm more going by my emotional impression, which could be really really wrong.   LOL  I sure have been before!

We've seen so few packs at all that I have no idea how many female weres there are in any other ones.  Ten percent in Adam's Columbia Basin pack may be high, you're right there. 

I really do not anticipate any female pack any time in the foreseeable Mercyverse future, but that is just my guess, here amid the other speculations.

I read - was it Robert Heinlein's "Lazarus Long"? - where 'anyone who says "in my humble opinion" is not humble at all'. 
I couldn't say about that, but I will say that all of us here are only stating our opinions, wishes, speculations, and not dictating to the author. 
Most of us try to avoid dictating to anybody, even us moderators, and however long we've been reading the books.

Patti L.,
Busymoddy
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Rob on December 25, 2009, 04:30:46 pm
Okay, folks....lets all remember that this is just speculations....this is Patty's universe and we just get to visit.  All that we know for sure is that Patty has not introduced us to many female werewolves, especially when compared to the amount of males.....if you really want an answer on the kind of numbers there are for female werewolves, you might send the question on up to Patty and Mike....

as for a female pack leader?  I think it's unlikely....neither humans or wolves are naturally matriarchal....how easy has it been for women to rise to power in the normal human world even today?  that's just fight one aspect of instinct.  now through in a wolf's instinct, and you are doubling the instinct to be fought against.  Maybe even triple or quadruple it because wolves don't have the sense of social moralism that allows humans who have differing ideas to remain in a postion to influence others, whereas in a wolf pack anyone who doesn't agree with the main pack is either killed or driven off.....

as for an all female pack?  again, unlikely....instinct would take over, even all female gangs still affiliate themselves with male gangs, and in the werewolf world, males who know of those females would try to take them over.  In the human world, whatever the females may say, the female gangs usually give way to male gangs.  It's that pesky thing of thousands of years of instinct.  Yes individual females can be dominant to some males, but as a whole, the female gender still instinctually gives dominance to the male gender.

Could this one day change?  With werewolves, I doubt it.....they are too in touch with their more primal animalistic instincts....they would not except so drastic a change....

....humble or not, just my opinions......
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: Tigerlilly on December 26, 2009, 12:58:48 am
I don't think they could truely be equal, after all Warren obays Mercy not because she is more dominate, but because he thinks of her as his alpha's mate. That wasn't his human part, that was his wolf.
]

Ok so I'm only on page 2 at the moment and therefore a bit behind the conversation  ;) but I read this and it made me wonder.... So lets say the females DO get their place in the pack int he fact that if one wolf obeys the male then that wolf must then obey the mate. However, what if this worked BOTH WAYS. Like if a female was given a recognised position in the pack and later got a mate, what if pack magic forces the wolves who obey the wolf with that position to obey that wolve's mate, regardless of gender. This however has yet to be tested because We have yet to encounter a were-ess who was given her place in the pack as a ranking member (say fifth) befoe being mated to a male werewolf.

Just a thought  :)
Title: Re: Werewolf Revolution
Post by: charmed on December 26, 2009, 06:49:26 am
I don't think they could truely be equal, after all Warren obays Mercy not because she is more dominate, but because he thinks of her as his alpha's mate. That wasn't his human part, that was his wolf.
]

Ok so I'm only on page 2 at the moment and therefore a bit behind the conversation  ;) but I read this and it made me wonder.... So lets say the females DO get their place in the pack int he fact that if one wolf obeys the male then that wolf must then obey the mate. However, what if this worked BOTH WAYS. Like if a female was given a recognised position in the pack and later got a mate, what if pack magic forces the wolves who obey the wolf with that position to obey that wolve's mate, regardless of gender. This however has yet to be tested because We have yet to encounter a were-ess who was given her place in the pack as a ranking member (say fifth) befoe being mated to a male werewolf.

Just a thought  :)

It's explicitly stated in both the Mercy series and the Alpha and Omega series, that female werewolves have NO rank in the pack UNLESS they have a werewolf mate. Then they take his rank. Remember Honey? She is very dominant, and Adam says that if she were male, she'd be ranked 3rd in a pack. But because she's female, she can't be third. Her mate, Peter, is also a werewolf and so her rank is the same as his. If she were unmated, she'd be at the bottom of the ranking.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Pendle on December 26, 2009, 07:17:28 am
It's almost like saying Honey is useless. It's kind of stupid - wolves definatley don't use all of their resources. If Honey wasn't mated and held her own pack rank she'd be handy in a fight.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Tigerlilly on December 26, 2009, 05:57:44 pm
Charmed - Yeah I get you, I was more thinking of the pack magic, like with the way Warren has to obey Mercy's orders because she is mated to Adam. I am just thinking that perhaps if they did let Honey be third then maybe her mate could 'share' that position, (though its not really sharing, since I remember in the books how it was more like the females were a step below their mates in power) just as she currently 'shares' his. Because otherwise it would be hard for females to gain equal rights if the very magic that helps create their pack structure was bias.

Pendle1511 - Yes, it is kind of silly to have an asset be considered less usefull simply because of gender. I think that the problem is equal parts wolf and man personality.... Like the whole 'survival/dominance of the fittest' is looked at as an animalistic way of thinking while the 'females are weaker BECAUSE they are female and therefore we control them' seems to me to be very human in the need to lord power over someone else to a point of disregarding the fact that they are just as capable as you, and using such an archaic (sp?) defence for the double standards.

I think it will take baby steps for female weres to gain equality... a good place to start would be making it possible for females to be lone wolves and giving them equal access to pack information (I remember in Moon Called how Warren was complaining that the other pack members didn't tell him or the females anything unless Adam was there).
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ladylynx on December 27, 2009, 08:08:24 am
It could be that the Wolf nature determines how the policy of a wolf pack is suppose to be. Sure, the man half can say we're not using all our resources, but the wolf side. The part that determines how animals are suppose to act won't budge on it. In nature, you don't have a female leading a wolf pack. It's always a dominate male. So the wolf is saying this is how it is and live with it, while the human half is trying to coop with it. Honey may be dominate and might have been really suited to be the mate of a dominate wolf, but she choose a weaker wolf to maybe boost his strength and encourage him or it could had been that the two wolf halves were made for each other.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Jazzlet on December 27, 2009, 07:50:10 pm
It could be that the Wolf nature determines how the policy of a wolf pack is suppose to be. Sure, the man half can say we're not using all our resources, but the wolf side. The part that determines how animals are suppose to act won't budge on it. In nature, you don't have a female leading a wolf pack. It's always a dominate male. So the wolf is saying this is how it is and live with it, while the human half is trying to coop with it. Honey may be dominate and might have been really suited to be the mate of a dominate wolf, but she choose a weaker wolf to maybe boost his strength and encourage him or it could had been that the two wolf halves were made for each other.
On the contrary, in nature you almost always do have an Alpha female leading a wolf pack, the studies that showed the dominant male were conducted on captive, put together packs and have been discredited ;D
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on December 27, 2009, 07:55:06 pm
Just like lion prides or horse herds; the stallions & male lions have their uses, but the real decision making is done by the females.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ladylynx on December 27, 2009, 08:29:48 pm
I stand corrected, but if you look how the packs are organize. The male wolf is going to dominate how the pack acts. Even the female wolf is going to make sure the other wolves under her, do their job. Now, if Patty felt that Honey down the line or even another female wolf down the line wanted to start a pack with the Marrok's blessings, then it would be a good series. The Carrie Vaughn books has a female wolf leading the pack and also their was a mention of an all female pack in the Sookie Stockhouse series as well.

However some thing tells me, that the Marrok isn't going to let a female pack form. Cause like Patty said, most of the women attacked or even bitten don't survive the process of becoming were's. That's more then likely why, the Marrok prefers to protect the ones who actually survive the process of being turned, instead of making them leaders.

The only other Were-wolf series I know of, that has a female technically leading a wolf pack or started a wolf pack is the character Kitty, the disc jockey series.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Rob on December 27, 2009, 11:19:16 pm
Now lets everyone remember that this is all fictional conjecture.  Everyone's going to have an opinion of their own and there is NO WAY for anyone to be right or wrong.  And thank goodness for that, because if Canadian chicken monkeys are mating with werewolves, like I said in my last post, I don't know about you guys but I'd be freaking out right now....

Lets remember that if the werewolves have a set nature or rules, only Patty really knows them.

None of werewolves I've read about really follow the natural social behavior of wolves, as far as I can tell.  Since Jazzlet pointed out that the idea of alpha males is mistaken....(thank-you by the way, never knew that, and it's always good to get new info. one should never stop learning new things).....anyways, since then I've done a tiny modicum of research.  Low and behold, not only are there no alpha males, but nor are there alpha females.  There are only dominant mating pairs.  Unlike any werewolf pack that I've read about, a wolf pack is usually only made up of one mating pair with their offspring of the last 2-3 years, and as in any HEALTHY family, Mom and Dad are dominant to their children....it is not just a case of the biggest and strongest leading, though that's usually how it ends up because parents are older and bigger than their kids.

All of the 'alpha' stuff was really just developed to help with training dogs....and is usually only of use in dealing with the human psychological part of the equation...

But again, my main point is that none of this is real, everyone has to remember to play nice and friendly and to respect everyone else's opinion, because no one is right and no one is wrong....

....also, if people get mean or condescending or uppity, I will start mauling and those people will have major hospital bills to pay....I am a grizzly bear so I can't be sued for damages or anything like that....

....so play nice peoples....or else....
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: charmed on December 28, 2009, 01:54:29 pm

The only other Were-wolf series I know of, that has a female technically leading a wolf pack or started a wolf pack is the character Kitty, the disc jockey series.

Which has no relevance to this topic or Patty's books. This thread is specifically for her books.

Now lets everyone remember that this is all fictional conjecture.  Everyone's going to have an opinion of their own and there is NO WAY for anyone to be right or wrong.....

Lets remember that if the werewolves have a set nature or rules, only Patty really knows them...

But again, my main point is that none of this is real, everyone has to remember to play nice and friendly and to respect everyone else's opinion, because no one is right and no one is wrong....



What he said. :)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: The Deposed King on December 28, 2009, 06:42:25 pm
Just like lion prides or horse herds; the stallions & male lions have their uses, but the real decision making is done by the females.


Yep.  Without those lazy male lions lording it over the real decision makers, lying around when its sunny and stealing the 'lion's share' from their kills (female lions do most of the hunting) those pesky hyeanas wouldn't have anyone to thin out their numbers or proactively stopping them from eating all those lion cubs.

And yeah, in the wild the dominant female wolf generally picks the male mate of her choice, and if he's a dud and too objectionable to the really real strongest male, then he tends to get axed by the male competition and the alpha female has to make a new pick.  And since wolfs are very social animals too many poor decisions and the beta female might just lead a successful uprising.  And the info about the alpha wolf pair generally being the only pair to mate and bear offspring is also correct.  Sometimes the beta female will mate and have kids but the kids are often hunted and killed by the alpha pair and the beta female generally gets beaten and killed or kicked out of the pack.

We also have to remember that yes the 'instincts' of these were-wolves aren't necessarily based at all upon natural wolves or natural humans nor any combination of the two until we hear it from patty herself.  That said if their instincts are totally estranged from human/wolf real life hybridizations then I personally tend to go with some sort of faery instincts.  Since that's one possible way the were-wolves came into being.





The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Ellyll on December 28, 2009, 06:54:26 pm
Y'know, it's possible you're taking some of these comments a little too seriously, Deposed King.  I don't think the male lions and male wolves are in need of your spirited defense.   ;)

You're right.  It is just wild speculation here.  But it's supposed to be for fun, not something that someone can 'win' by proving everyone else wrong.  I think we should all try to remember that as we go along. 

Especially as it's been stated twice in the last three posts.  ;D
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: The Deposed King on December 28, 2009, 07:01:01 pm
Y'know, it's possible you're taking some of these comments a little too seriously, Deposed King.  I don't think the male lions and male wolves are in need of your spirited defense.   ;)

You're right.  It is just wild speculation here.  But it's supposed to be for fun, not something that someone can 'win' by proving everyone else wrong.  I think we should all try to remember that as we go along.  

Especially as it's been stated twice in the last three posts.  ;D



Sorry if I seemed too serious.  Not my intention.  Just trying to have fun, not necessarily determined to 'win'.

But I certainly don't want to ruin the fun for anyone else, so I'll just go back to lurking in this thread for a little while.  Its fun to watch and participate but I don't want to spoil it for anyone else.

TTFN  Ta, ta for now!


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: MeowMix on April 01, 2010, 03:39:23 pm
I don't understand why the male werewolf wants to protect the female werewolf? (human yes, but not werewolf) It's useless to the speices. I'm more inclined to believe it's human instincts amplified. It was changed by the pressures of society before (another human instinct possibly?), now that werewolves are out, it could happen again. If I were to fight for the cause, I would go to the general public. Bran wants to project werewolves in a positive light. Calling them sexist monsters who rape and abuse women wouldn't be very positive, and it would only grow larger with werewolf hate groups making larger than it is.

As for the all female pack: they would have to be some tough bitches that don't take no for an anwser.  ;)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on April 01, 2010, 04:21:01 pm
Instinctive drives and behaviors can last long after the evolutionary need for them is gone.  Both humans - which all werewolves derive from - and natural wolves - which may be more 'template' than actual genetic or mental contributor to werewolves - have a natural drive to protect females and the young.  The 'protect the cubs' drive, since there aren't (ordinarily) cubs, is transferred to the newly turned werewolves, save in the case of rogues.  There is nowhere for the drive to protect females to go in place of the usual version, regardless that it's not a biological necessity.  Only in the past century, roughly, has the idea that women can be equal to men been moving into force in Europe or European derived societies, and the simple facts that 1. female werewolves are still, in absolute terms, somewhat smaller than males in general just like unchanged humans and 2. the fact that most werewolves spend most of their time in both human shape and human society means that both their original "programming" as children, and the expected behavior that their neighbors would notice demands that they treat the women as lower caste, and to be protected, offspring or no.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: MeowMix on April 01, 2010, 06:25:45 pm
Didn't Sam mention something about evolution of werewolves? Something that has to do with keeping werewolves a secret. I can't remember which book, and I only have the A&O series with me, so...
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: 2shay on April 05, 2010, 12:52:50 pm
I have read some of the posts on this thread and I have a question.  How do we know that Bran isn't promoting equal rights for women within the pack?  He knows Mercy really well and dropped her right on top of Adam.  Adam who just happens to be the most "liberal" of the Alphas.  Bran always seems to take the long view.  I'll just bet he had a plan.  His first thought, of course, was to help Samuel.  But he had to know, if that didn't work out, that Mercy was going to rock Adam's world. :)

Also, Adam has a daughter.  I don't think he would tolerate Jessie being treated as "less" because of gender.

I see a possibility of Adam and Mercy building a safe place for abused female werewolves.  Honey can be their leader....a sub-pack.
Mercy and Mary Jo would be their role-models.

I'm a little serious.....but not too much.  Just having fun.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: _xXx_Tala_xXx_ on April 17, 2010, 06:48:11 pm
 I personally think the women should speak up! Women can be just as dominant as the male werewolves. They can defend themselves and lead. Female packs, female Alphas and Female lone wolves should start to be allowed. I hope Mercy influences them enough so they can convince Bran or whoever they have to convince to bring the packs to the 21st century.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Elle on April 17, 2010, 06:59:22 pm
Hi Tala, I don't think it's as simple as just saying they want to be more dominant. There's a lot of magic involved with the werewolf packs. I think Mercy being added to the Columbia Basin pack has shifted that magic, in what way, or how it will affect the rest of the females in the pack we may not fully know for quite a while. I'm hopeful though, the dominance shifting is a good sign.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Varg on April 18, 2010, 06:24:00 am
There is also the purely physical factors. If fights for dominance are physical fights in human form, the women have a disadvantage over most men due to being smaller. If everything else is equal the male still has an advantage if he is physically bigger than the female.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ladylynx on April 18, 2010, 07:14:46 am
Women may be smaller and don't have the upper body strength that men do, but being small works to their advantage. It allows them to get and do things that men can't do. Also, a woman's strength is int he lower part of her body. Down in her legs and such. A well place kick in the right spot will bring down any big guy.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on April 18, 2010, 09:31:55 am
And they know it, so they guard that place.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Josi on May 05, 2010, 12:10:20 pm
I think that even fighting in a human form some females would move up if it were allowed.  Honey, as Adam had said, fights dirty and has won many matches, she would be someones second or third if she wasnt female.  So even if she can fight, has "the magic" that makes her a dominant, she still isn't up there because she is female. 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ironkitten on June 30, 2010, 05:52:03 pm
Ok, maybe I missed something, but was Jamie the other Chicago Alpha a female or male. It was kind of wierd when I read it in A&O and it made me wonder?
I think with Mary Jo and Paul fight was accepted that might be something that sparks more equality in Adam's pack, but in the last book you kind of get that Adam's pack isn't the norm either, and niether is Bran's for that matter.
In talking to my friend when I read the books to her she is part indian and she loves werewolves and vampire stories so she is in love with these. She was telling me that in Indian culture the lineage goes through the female not the males, but women don't get much say because they aren't the protectors of the tribe, but they are equally respected as the one who care the tribe's heritage and lineage. As for wolves they only take one mate and it's for life and for that I think trying to find that single unmated were's are the responsibility of the Alpha is not the same as making them a harem or play things as Leo did. Although I think that Leo's mate probably was running things and Leo was running damage control. I think Adam's pack might just be what brings the were's into the 21st century though. I don't see the females having issues with the where they get their rank from their mates, because as we saw with Leo and Isabelle that is not a good thing with pack magic, but if Females that were unmated wanted to fight for rank that should be an option. Anway that is my two cents.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: lostbird on July 01, 2010, 08:05:20 am
... was Jamie the other Chicago Alpha a female or male.

Jamie was/is male. Patty used the pronoun "he" in reference to Jamie more than once. But if you're still confused, remember that Anna has a conversation with Charles when Charles wonders aloud about why the Chicago packs have their territories so finely delineated. Anna says she doesn't know whether Isabel wanted to sleep with Jamie and he wouldn't, or whether Isabel had an affair with Jamie and Leo learned about it. Anna has only heard rumors.

Jamie is not an unusual male name (could be short for James or Jameson) and in the Mercyverse, females cannot (as of yet) be alphas.

Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ironkitten on July 01, 2010, 01:04:33 pm
that's true, I think it was just how he was refered to in the books, I figured he was a male from the Mercy novels but I read the A&O and couldn't figure it out, I was fairly certain, but wasn't for sure. I forgot they did refrence "he" in there. Thanks for that clarification.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ironkitten on July 02, 2010, 03:23:41 pm
Women may be smaller and don't have the upper body strength that men do, but being small works to their advantage. It allows them to get and do things that men can't do. Also, a woman's strength is int he lower part of her body. Down in her legs and such. A well place kick in the right spot will bring down any big guy.
I'm not sure that applies with weres. I think it evens out, but I am not sure on that.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on August 16, 2010, 03:48:31 pm
Any guy kicked there would be in a whole lot of pain. >D :D
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: CarolKat on August 16, 2010, 04:30:46 pm
Yep and everyone laughs when it happens and even though they are laughing the guys observing cringe as well!  LOL 9)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on September 10, 2010, 07:47:13 pm
In the fight between Paul and Mary Jo..."Her kick was as simple as Paul's had been.  Straight up, angling between his thighs...He backed up rapidly...every muscle in his torso tensed with sudden pain." (SB p241 in hardback) Right after that, she delivered the nerve strike to the back of the head, but didn't follow up fast enough to defeat him.  So it obviously does hurt them, but doesn't necessarily incapacitate them enough, especially if their opponent's already hurt. 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on September 10, 2010, 08:10:36 pm
This sort of addresses an issue brought up a couple times in this thread.  If I'm repeating what people already know, sorry.  Copy and paste of a FAQ section for werewolves.
The Mercy series, in one book (Moon Called, maybe?), it says females are at the bottom of the pack until they marry, at which point they take their husband's place in the pack. In another book (Iron Kissed?), Mercy thinks that Honey dropped a lot in the pack placement upon her marriage to P. How could she have dropped in the pack if she were already on the bottom? Chat 2008-10-11

    * Ah -- yes. Consistency is tough (and is getting tougher). However, some of this comes because I have a pretty good feel for things in my head. Official pack policy and what really happens are sometimes two different things.
    * Once a female is mated -- there is an actual change in their status -- via the pack magic.
    * Before they are mated. Their status "official" is traditional -- but a dominant female can still back off a less dominant male


I was going to say something more, but I'm too tired.  I'll take another look tomorrow.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on September 10, 2010, 08:22:33 pm
That sounds exactly how I think of it working, Kkat07.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 11, 2010, 01:21:51 pm
Perhaps if the wolves came out of the Stone Age, maybe a female can have her rank because of her dominance instead of her mate's.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on September 11, 2010, 07:09:34 pm
I'm sure some, if not all, of the female werewolves would like that.  If I were one, I certainly would.  If the pack magic is at least partially responsible for the women taking their rank from their mate, what would it take to change that?  And can it be changed?  Any ideas?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 12, 2010, 10:08:59 am
Well I think some types of magic can be changed. Mercy stopped that death spell in MC.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on September 12, 2010, 03:38:16 pm
Could be.  Hopefully we'll find out something in River Marked.  Until then, that's what speculation and debate is for.   :-whistle
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: charmed on September 12, 2010, 04:29:15 pm
Could be.  Hopefully we'll find out something in River Marked.  Until then, that's what speculation and debate is for.   :-whistle

And we even have a speculation thread for "River Marked" :) http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4289.0
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: charmed on September 12, 2010, 04:30:31 pm
Perhaps if the wolves came out of the Stone Age, maybe a female can have her rank because of her dominance instead of her mate's.

Well, now, if you look at the thread title and the posts, that's one of the things that we have been discussing here. :)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 13, 2010, 02:45:53 pm
Still, gotta love  america. But it anoys me that women are look at as prized "things". Hello! Women are people/wolves too!
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: charmed on September 13, 2010, 02:52:25 pm
If you are not interested in actually participating in and contributing to the discussion, you are not obligated to post. If you want to chat, we have an entire, separate baord for that. :)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 14, 2010, 11:05:47 am
I did :( The whole "women are looked at as prized things" comes from one of the Mercy Books.And does anyone know if female wolves are treated the same in Europe as in America(Pack wise)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Pendle on September 14, 2010, 03:00:17 pm
Probably. And remember the Europe packs are erratic anyway.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on September 14, 2010, 06:07:07 pm
Since the werewolves immigrated from Europe to America, and their social structures and mindsets don't change easily, if at all, things are probably the same in Europe.  I could be wrong on this, but I'd hazard a guess that the women in Adam's pack probably get at least a little more equal treatment than in other packs, from Adam and Warren if from no one else.
In Moon Called, I don't have the book in front of me so I can't give the page number, Warren says something about Aurielle having called him to say that Adam was missing, and something about the women in the pack are usually left out of things if Adam's not around.
In Iron Kissed, after Honey asks Mercy if she really thinks that Adam would have let her go after the sorceror if she were his mate, and Jesse says that Adam won't stop her if there's something she really needs to do, because he doesn't waste his resources that way. (pg 117 paperback)
"But Adam didn't really see women as the weaker sex, and he knew how to organize and how to recognize organization when he saw it" (Silver Borne pg 220 hardback)
Both Warren and Adam approved of Mary Jo choosing to challenge Paul in Silver Borne, and they're willing to use the women as well as the men in a fight.  And that was a long post.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 15, 2010, 03:25:15 pm
Long, but useful. In Europe, Before the end of HG the French pack leader scared most of the European woplves and that might of changed things.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Ellyll on September 15, 2010, 03:43:55 pm
Might've changed what?  ???  I don't get what you mean there.  :-\
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on September 15, 2010, 04:53:09 pm
I think she means that the treatment of females in werewolf packs might have changed between the time Bran came to the US and the time of the action in these books, when the Beast of Cha-whosit killed off all the strongest European alphas.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on September 15, 2010, 05:23:22 pm
It'd be interesting to find out.  Unfortunately, we haven't met any of the female werewolves in the current European packs.  I was wondering if Honey was changed in Europe, since it said somewhere she was changed outside of Bran's territory, and Europe seems the most likely choice, but we don't know for sure, or how long ago she was changed.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Pendle on September 16, 2010, 09:08:40 am
I don't remember that, but definitely a point of interest. Why did she move? How did she move?

I know women can move to different packs but still there must be a story there.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 16, 2010, 10:56:55 am
It hinted in BB that her former Alpha abused her...hmm
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on September 16, 2010, 06:17:48 pm
Topic of forced changes in the Ask Patty answered questions: "Only in Bran's territory (which is admittedly huge) is it absolutely forbidden to Change someone against their will.  In, for instance, Europe, as long as the pack Alpha doesn't care, it is not forbidden.  Just a really bad idea if you are trying to avoid capture.

Honey is older than she looks and was not Changed in Bran's territory.  Both Adam and David were Changed in Asia, during the Vietnam war.  And you can add Ben to your list of people who were Changed against their will."

Women can request to change packs.  Another possibility is that she was mated to Peter before she came to the U.S., and they came over at the same time.  We know from Iron Kissed that Peter has an accent that sounds similar to German when he is stressed/frightened/angry; Honey could be from the same region.  Hard to say, because we don't know how long they've been in America, or how long they've been mates.  I've been curious for a while as to how they ended up in America, whether they were together or separate.  Whoops, veering from topic ever so slightly. 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Janilee on September 16, 2010, 06:22:04 pm
Honey says Peter was much older than she in one of the later books.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Zealith on September 16, 2010, 08:14:09 pm
I remember that too, Iron Kissed I believe.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 17, 2010, 11:02:53 am
It was. but didn't it say Peter was changed aroungd the revolution?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on September 17, 2010, 11:30:09 am
Okay, this can go in character threads rather than women's rights, right?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 17, 2010, 06:46:04 pm
Yep! Has anyone thought of why more men are changed that women that survive? Kind of random, but I've been wondering.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Carradee on September 18, 2010, 02:03:41 am
I've always figured that it's hormonal.  Like the Change magic interacts better with testosterone than estrogen or progesterone.  About 5-10% of women have a condition that usually results in increased testosterone levels, though most don't know they have it.  (I do.)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: CarolKat on September 18, 2010, 04:30:08 am
That's an interesting thought Caradee, I wonder if an older woman might survive the change easier because of the lower estrogen levels.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ArtAngel on September 18, 2010, 04:33:51 am
Huh, that's a neat idea!
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on September 18, 2010, 11:17:43 am
And then they;d be "young" again, hmmm
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Victorymon on September 30, 2010, 04:25:13 am
I dont know if this is working for werewolve-packs too, but there was a post about wolf-packs somewhere...
when the alpha dies and his mate is still there its possible that she is in control

 ;D a werewolf-pack lead by a real dominant she-wolf. oh boy, the poor guys
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on September 30, 2010, 09:48:34 am
I wonder if there are submissive - not less dominant, but truly submissive - female werewolves.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Victorymon on September 30, 2010, 11:05:42 am
I wonder if there are submissive - not less dominant, but truly submissive - female werewolves.
you mean like in religios families? where there cant be any dominant woman? (you know what I mean... right?)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on September 30, 2010, 11:20:15 am
No, I mean like Alan of the Emerald City pack (Hunting Ground) or Peter from Adam's pack, truly submissive; no desire to be Alpha, doesn't join dominance fighting.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Victorymon on September 30, 2010, 11:30:19 am
ahh, ok. In other words someone like me  ;)
so yes, I think there really are such kind of werewolves. they were in love with a wolf, get changed and decided that its better to stay away from the fights.
makes the life much easier
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on September 30, 2010, 12:05:50 pm
Sounds as though there is bad translation regarding that, too.

So, with Honey & Mary Jo being pretty dominant, I wonder if there are females who have the same mindset as Peter or Alan, who survived being changed.  That's what I was asking about.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Varg on September 30, 2010, 12:09:11 pm
Interesting. Even if they had no need or internal drive to engage in the dominance struggles they would still have to have strong wills and minds in order to survive the change.  Submissive does not always equal weakness.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Zealith on September 30, 2010, 12:11:08 pm
I bet there could be. I remember another series where a woman became a vampire in order to allow her to watch over her children easier, I think a submissive woman might do something similiar with being turned into a werewolf for similiar reasons.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on October 01, 2010, 06:28:01 pm
There probably are some submissive female wolves, although probably not that many, since most women don't survive the change, and there just aren't that many submissive wolves to begin with.  Put the two conditions together, and the probability is very small.  Okay, I'm having horrible flashbacks to statistics classes. 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on October 02, 2010, 11:39:32 am
If there can be female omegas(wich are rarer than subs.) I'm sure there are female subs. That and in A&O, It said that Charles thought that ana was very submisive when he first looked at her
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on October 21, 2010, 04:43:48 pm
Post by Kyria copied from Alphas/dominance/military thread:
" >D
They're all ruled by women.  Many of them are more circumspect about letting the men KNOW that they're in charge, though.  a la Charles and Anna... or Mercy and Adam... Who gets the Alpha to do what she wants, even when he doesn't want to do it?  his mate.


If I had to guess, I would guess that Pack magic is influenced by the conventions held by the wolves.  For instance, Sam says Mercy is his Pack (which is how he borrowed energy from her) and when she protests that Pack magic doesn't work like that, he says that there has been Pack much longer than there have been ceremonies.  I don't think most of the younger wolves could have done without the ceremony, because they don't know that it could be done without the ceremony.
Similarly, the wolves have all been taught that the flow of power is one way... maybe it doesn't have to work that way, but it can't work the other way without them collectively believing that it should." 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on October 23, 2010, 06:54:47 am
The way I understand it is that an Alpha can draw on the pack and give energy to the pack members if the need it. In one of the A&O books Charles asks Bran for energy and Bran does
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DandelionWine on February 06, 2011, 06:21:39 pm
I just re-listened to SB and after the Mary Jo / Paul fight, Honey was very upset that MaryJo was allowed to fight Paul that way, and said something about the women getting involved in dominance fights now and NOT being happy about the idea...  To me that means that even though she's tough, she seems to be dominant in some ways, and has good fighting skills, she's not at all interested in fighting past her current position.   

That's her choice, and I've known plenty of people like that both male and female.  If they're comfortable in their 'spot' they aren't all that ambitious to move up.  It was said somewhere (sorry not sure where, probably in IK after the fight with the Fideal? Fidaelious? ??) that it's not that submissives won't or can't fight, just that they aren't interested in challenging the hierarchy.   Maybe the pack magic after a true mating reduces the desire for dominance challenges for females?  Not fair maybe, but hey, it's magic, not equal-rights.  I'd think the magic is all about pack protection, not protection of individual rights.

Also, I can't imagine much more boring than an all female werewolf pack, the opposite sex may be a bit of a pain but most people choose to stay 'in the mix'.  I don't deny that some females might be qualified to be an alpha in some or even many ways in theory, considering the numbers of female werewolves, there's just not a big pool to select from so that cuts down on the option too. 

Bran has already instigated a LOT of changes as far as how American packs are run as compared to those in Europe, so the customs have already changed and are probably going to change more.  But the whole "Pack Magic" thing is a big issue when it comes to women's status changing all that much IMO, though I know my opinion matters little.   Bran is letting Adam handle things mostly the way he chooses as long as no major laws are broken... i.e. no forced changes etc.  If Mary Jo were to move to a different pack, she shouldn't expect another Alpha to allow that fight she had!  Bran is letting... maybe encouraging change at a pace that everyone can handle IMO, Adam is secure as a male and doesn't feel threatened by letting Mary Jo have some leeway.  A few other packs are letting homosexual wolves join now remember?  Bran seems to treat females in his own pack quite well from what little we've seen so far and as far as we can tell, wasn't upset about Mary Jo getting into that fight... things ARE changing if you ask me, but it's not going to happen over night, just a little faster thanks to the Trickster!

Just so ya'll know, I'm retired military, and had enough rank to supervise a fair number of folks of both sexes.  Not a problem in the military, but we didn't have pack magic, just the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) as well as all the other written rules and regulations.  Did I still have a few males who resented me giving orders?  Sure.  Did I care?  Depends.  Did they follow orders?  Yep. ...oh yeah, and a few females who thought they could get away with less work because I was in charge, that didn't work either.   ;D 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Rob on February 06, 2011, 06:36:07 pm
I just re-listened to SB and after the Mary Jo / Paul fight, Honey was very upset that MaryJo was allowed to fight Paul that way, and said something about the women getting involved in dominance fights now and NOT being happy about the idea...  To me that means that even though she's tough, she seems to be dominant in some ways, and has good fighting skills, she's not at all interested in fighting past her current position.   

I am of the opinion, just my opinion, that she was probably more upset about the instability that this is likely to cause....werewolves don't seem to like change in the first place, and this is likely to cause a LOT of trouble in addition to causing change.....
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on February 09, 2011, 05:39:19 pm
Old wolves don't like change much and i think that honey is happy where and how she/the pack is
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Cerulean on February 19, 2011, 03:52:09 pm
I was thinking that she's not as worried about fighting her way to the top as she is about being targeted herself by others wanting to have higher status.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: L.A. Alpha on February 20, 2011, 10:30:35 am
I dont know if this is working for werewolve-packs too, but there was a post about wolf-packs somewhere...
when the alpha dies and his mate is still there its possible that she is in control

 ;D a werewolf-pack lead by a real dominant she-wolf. oh boy, the poor guys

I've been wondering about this too since I started reading the Mercy series. So far, I haven't found an answer. Also, what happens when a lower ranked female's mate dies? They would then be an 'unmated female' right? And unmated females belong to the Alpha. So, would a female whose mate died belong to the alpha?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on February 20, 2011, 11:12:19 am
My guess is that she would, technically, yes.  Don't get upset that Patty hasn't answered your question in "Ask Patty" about the same subject; there are questions from 2008 if not 2007 that she's declined to answer, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: L.A. Alpha on February 21, 2011, 08:06:55 am
Thanks. I'm not upset that she hasn't answered. I know how busy authors get when they're writing.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DarlingWolfEyes on February 27, 2011, 04:49:02 pm
Regarding Honey, I don't think that she's totally happy with how things are. In Iron Kissed Mercy says this about her...

Quote
I'd turned down everything that she'd wanted out of life--status, both in the werewolf world and the human one, and money.

I take this to mean that Honey wants more status within the pack.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on February 28, 2011, 06:46:35 pm
I think Patty made a statement somewhere in a chat or something that Honey wasn't happy where she was, that dominant wolves didn't like taking orders.  I can't find it though, so take it with a grain or two of salt.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ElefiNecol on March 01, 2011, 09:21:15 am
She did.  It's from the 2007-11-03 chat; the information can also be found in the WeresFAQ area.

http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3152.0


Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Kkat07 on March 02, 2011, 03:37:40 pm
Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Gerd D. on March 21, 2011, 11:11:18 am
This blog post seems to fit right in here:
http://www.whatifbooksetc.com/2011/03/feminism-in-mercy-thompson-promising.html
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Cerulean on March 21, 2011, 11:35:30 am
This blog post seems to fit right in here:
http://www.whatifbooksetc.com/2011/03/feminism-in-mercy-thompson-promising.html

Very interesting, Gerd. Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Ellyll on March 26, 2011, 10:50:08 am
Interesting essays.   :)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: CarolKat on March 26, 2011, 12:32:18 pm
Thanks for the link, Gerd. The articles showed an interesting point of view.  :)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on March 27, 2011, 07:16:14 am
And a lot to think about
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Cerulean on March 28, 2011, 10:04:48 am
I'm quite pleased with the reviewer's comments on feminism and Mercy Thompson series. While I may quibble with one or two interpretations, I it on many of the same things she did. I especially like the way Patty has a fairly egalitarian relationship between Mercy & Adam. And I love how they communicate with each other - explicitly describing their boundaries with give-and-take, as we saw in River Marked.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on March 30, 2011, 11:18:23 am
what is egalitarian? ???
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Spryte on March 30, 2011, 11:21:52 am
"asserting, resulting from, or characterized by belief in the equality of all people, especially in political, economic, or social life."
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on March 30, 2011, 03:51:22 pm
Thank you
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Marroksoul on April 30, 2011, 11:42:44 am

My first post. i beleive but can't remember the page that something was missed in moon called that fit here. someone should look that over or remind me if someone already has but i read the whole thing and nothing fit so try again hopefully it works out. if it helps it was in the middle somewhere between 5 and 10 i think. oh and the name does fit how much of your soul can you use.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on April 30, 2011, 11:44:28 am
What?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Marroksoul on April 30, 2011, 11:45:53 am
i read the book like a week ago here was something about this that was missed i could almost swear it

typo there not here

Don't take it the wrong way either. I hate it when that happens.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on April 30, 2011, 11:55:45 am

My first post. i beleive but can't remember the page that something was missed in moon called that fit here. someone should look that over or remind me if someone already has but i read the whole thing and nothing fit so try again hopefully it works out. if it helps it was in the middle somewhere between 5 and 10 i think. oh and the name does fit how much of your soul can you use.

What about "how much of your soul you can use" is regarding female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?

And, by the way, look at the upper right of your posts.  There's an option there to "modify"; you can use that so you have one post instead of two or three in a row.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Marroksoul on May 06, 2011, 04:07:02 pm
As I said don't take it the wrong way that part was defense of my name.

I really hate it when people take it the wrong way. I'm not fully normal myself if you want the truth, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on May 07, 2011, 09:45:20 am
i'm confused... ???
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Elle on May 07, 2011, 10:17:48 am
Let's just move on. ;) Keep to topic everyone, thanks.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on May 08, 2011, 04:04:58 pm
Alright, so has anyone asked if the young wolf in BB found a role in the marok's pack, or if she has moved packs?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Elle on May 08, 2011, 04:08:29 pm
A few people. She's still with Bran and the Aspen pack and has her own thread here:

Kara Beckworth (http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=256.0)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Fleetwolf on May 08, 2011, 05:16:32 pm
Looking over the conversation of female werewolves, rights and so forth, I seem to recall through out the Mercy Thompson books and the Alpha and Omega books that female werewolves are rare. They don't survive being Changed like males are. So, with this indicated, I would say it's hard to give female werewolves rule of a whole pack much less a pack of only female werewolves. The logistics don't support the idea. Female rights for the female werewolves could very well be enforced if Bran were to impose rules on challenging for power. Limit the challenges to just the first three dominant males that take issue with this, and once the female wins this fight she cannot be challenged for a year. That would give the female werewolves to prove themselves further and gain more power within the ranks.

Though all of this can be changed or taken a different way if other weresocieties are not following Bran's methodology.

I hope I am making some sense.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Gerd D. on May 09, 2011, 07:14:45 am
So, with this indicated, I would say it's hard to give female werewolves rule of a whole pack much less a pack of only female werewolves. The logistics don't support the idea.
Numbers of availability don't influence the capability to rule (other than there being fewer females who are capable to lead, statistical spoken).
Also, they don't need females in their ranks, so the females being fewer and therefore rarer wouldn't cut it as an argument either.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Cerulean on May 09, 2011, 10:54:16 am
True, Gerd. Female werewolves can't have children and that has historically been one of the most prevalent rationales for keeping women out of power. Female werewolves aren't limited to hearth and home because of children or child-bearing ability.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on May 09, 2011, 03:56:35 pm
I think that it is because females are so few, that it means fewer mate bonds. There is also the fact that rare things are usually treasured, no matter their value.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Gerd D. on May 10, 2011, 07:45:37 am
Nah, I would think it has more to do with the complication that comes with immortality, that they can't adapt to new ideas as fast as a regular human could/would.

Just put yourself in Brans shoes, the man's how old?
As old as the dark ages or more.
Centuries probably don't hold much meaning to him, they just make a lovely swishing sound when they pass by. :)

And due to the limited number of new wolves rising up in the ranks old ideas will become really old ideas before anybody dares to contest them. Hell, common people with their comparative short lifespan still cling like madmen to ideas already outdated two thousand years ago when they were first conceived... what do you expect immortals would do?
The very mention of "change" must send them into a frenzy.*

*Makes you wonder how they took to Obama's campaign, doesn't it?   LOL
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on May 10, 2011, 08:35:12 am
I doubt the centuries pass like wind blown leaves, even for Bran & Asil, although individual decades might have until about the 20th century.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Cerulean on May 10, 2011, 10:04:24 am
I doubt that they're truly treasured, as the prevalence for raping them is abnormally high. And that's saying something. Mercy could only find one or two alphas that she could send (Kacy?) to that she felt confident would not abuse or rape her.   
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on May 10, 2011, 10:06:52 am
Kara, and there were a few more.  However, "treasured" is a relative term, not absolute.  Many treasures are meant to be used, and otherwise lose their status as treasures.
And let's face it; werewolves are trapped in their mid-twenties by their biology.  That means that the males have testosterone poisoning all the time.  A female werewolf will heal from whatever they do to her (witness Anna) and is unlikely to complain to the human authorities, even if they aren't ordered to not do so by their alphas.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Marroksoul on May 10, 2011, 01:03:19 pm
So I was told to bring it up here but Mary Jo belongs to Adam. What exactly does that mean? For both of them it really doesn't get told by the story very well if at all. It confuses me a bit.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on May 10, 2011, 02:11:08 pm
iI'm pretty sure it means that, since Adam is dominant and domanants see things this way, since Adam "owns" her, he is there to protect her, until she gets a mate that can protect her more.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on May 10, 2011, 02:16:35 pm
It tends to mean what the alpha in question thinks it means... until Bran finds out, anyway.
For Adam, it means he's in charge of protecting her as much as is required - she being a werewolf and fairly dominant herself, and tough beyond "I have strength 'cause I'm a werewolf, neener neener", since she does working out & stuff, he doesn't have to do much.  If she had been less dominant, or even submissive, he might have had to do more to protect her.
Obviously, other alphas don't have as... modern a view of the subject.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Marroksoul on May 10, 2011, 02:22:05 pm
That works.  Thanks
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Cerulean on May 10, 2011, 03:18:06 pm
I have to disagree somewhat, Patti. I do think there are a lot of relative terms, but I do think being treasured and being abused/raped truly are mutually exclusive. I would also say that we are more than the sum of our biology and biological (opposed to chronological) age. While testosterone-poisoning sounds catchy, it's largely an excuse for poor behavior that doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. Testosterone does have a cause and effect relationship with dominance, somewhat with aggression, and actually with sexual arousal for both males and females. But it is far from the only relevant hormone that shapes behavior, and there are stronger forces that shape such behavior than hormones.

There is a concept in psychology called benevolent sexism - the idea that women have their opportunities restricted and are oppressed as a group supposedly for their own good. "Don't worry your pretty little head about it - I'll take care of everything" thinking. It infantalizes women and reveals an actual lack of respect when women are put on such pedestals that they'll break their necks trying to move around. They're limited to range of the box they're put into. The opposite of benevolent sexism is hostile sexism, the kind that is so often attributed to Ben, for example. Just like in the real world, both types would exist in werewolves, especially as a long-lived race. Benevolent sexism is one of the things that Mercy fights with Adam about - to let her live her life and make her own choices without being smothered to death with overprotectiveness. A reasonable amount of protectiveness, yes, but not overwhelming amounts.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on May 10, 2011, 03:58:27 pm
Oh, this is an interesting discussion, Cerulean!

I don't approve of the idea of " "treasured" is a relative term, not absolute.  Many treasures are meant to be used, and otherwise lose their status as treasures." - - - Let's be straight about that, right off the bat. 
I think that you and I are in accord in general, it's more a matter of my... historical? view of the practice, as I'm thinking about it.

People are perfectly able to have 180 degree opposite views of the same person, object, or action, and without seeing that they're being inconsistent.  That's the core of what I'm saying here.

To... slave owners, for instance, during the period this continent was being colonized from Europe - Please, no debates on the general subject, it's an example; other slave owners elsewhere had much the same behaviors, at different times and places, but some did not - there were conflicting views regarding their slaves.  There had to be, or none could ever have been freed in their own lifetimes, and some were.  They were chattel, like the cattle and horses, and to be worked hard, and (if the owner so desired) bred early and often.  And yet they were trying to convert them to Christianity... which is useless with cattle and horses, so what's the difference? 
I doubt there were many free people (white or otherwise) having sex with the barnyard animals, let alone bringing them into their homes & beds, but they did so with the slave women.  They sometimes had children by the slave women, but wouldn't acknowledge them; fell in love but would/could not marry the women.  Wanted women/girls (or I dare say sometimes men or boys) in their beds, but treated them like animals, chaining, whipping, selling them, breaking up families.
Or, we could look at the views of priests as having supposedly been anointed by the successor to the successor to (etc.) Peter, who was anointed by the son of God... but we still not only tell jokes about fallible priests, but have cynical views regarding pedophile priests who have been unmasked, and those who have not.

So, yes, the female werewolves may be seen as "treasures", and, as you said,  "There is a concept in psychology called benevolent sexism - the idea that women have their opportunities restricted and are oppressed as a group supposedly for their own good. "Don't worry your pretty little head about it - I'll take care of everything" thinking. It infantalizes women and reveals an actual lack of respect when women are put on such pedestals that they'll break their necks trying to move around. They're limited to range of the box they're put into."

The long held blind belief that women need to be protected, and yet laying heavy burdens on them, ignoring evidences of both strength and intelligence. 
In the end of the 19th century & beginning of the 20th, women weren't allowed to swim; the uterus was considered a weak organ.  Riiiight.  It holds the baby for 9 months, then pushes it out, and it's weak?

Or how about the way that harness racing horses used to be raced?  Harness her up, have her trot her first heat, unfasten the sulky, and put her in her box stall.  Half an hour or an hour later, bring her out, fasten the sulky up, and make her trot her fastest again.
No walking, no wiping off sweat, no blanket, just stuff her in a stall.

So I do maintain that, like a "treasured" draft mare, the females might be treated abominably.  And the wolves wouldn't see the contradiction.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Gerd D. on May 11, 2011, 06:25:49 am
I have to disagree somewhat, Patti. I do think there are a lot of relative terms, but I do think being treasured and being abused/raped truly are mutually exclusive.
Morally spoken, absolutely.

But as a historic fact, quite the opposite was/is true. Here much rather the terminology of "treasured" goes hand in hand with the practice of rape and abuse.
Women are "treasured" in the sense of being "of worth", status symbols, like race horses, with no rights of their own.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Cerulean on May 11, 2011, 11:19:45 am
I think Patti, that you're using the technical term of "treasured" = something that has value. To me, more like an actual treasure chest would have value. Of possessions having value. As Gerd suggests, I was using it in the verb form, not a noun form :) To treasure something/someone is to take care of it, honor and respect it; treat it with dignity. When people talk about treasuring someone/something, I'm going to say this is what they actually mean. It's kinda like the difference between the letter of law and the meaning of it. You're using the letter definition and I'm using the meaning one. So in that sense, I think we're agreeing.

I think about how people think about women as being delicate and weak. Women actually have a higher tolerance for pain than do men (interestingly enough, handedness and hair color also matter), for example, and think about all the things women have historically had to endure. Here's a great reading of Sojurner Truth's "Ain't I a Woman?" speech  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vr_vKsk_h8) the Seneca Falls Women's Convention in 1851.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: alan on July 10, 2011, 06:57:03 pm
I wonder if Mrs. Briggs will bring this subject up in later books with Mercy.  She's sort of blown up all the rules that she's come across.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on July 12, 2011, 03:52:41 am
Almost every single one. Maybe women will be able to be chalenged.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: alan on July 12, 2011, 12:19:08 pm
It would only be fair it they were. 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on July 12, 2011, 12:56:26 pm
that would be cool, but we all know the males wouldn't alow it
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: alan on July 12, 2011, 01:13:42 pm
Has that ever stopped Mercy before?   LOL
I don't see their stone age rules lasting much longer.  With so many younger people Changing all the time it's only a matter of time before one woman jumps in and calls them out.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on July 12, 2011, 01:22:24 pm
True, but Bran is in charge... :-\
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: alan on July 12, 2011, 03:07:55 pm
Yes, but he's only one man.  If women get him to realize how much stronger he could make packs by letting the women fight too he'd be smart to use their abilities.  Yes, there is the problem of women dying more but if there isn't a change things could get worse for packs that don't modernize.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on July 12, 2011, 03:30:19 pm
My point was that if he disagrees, then he can just give an order and the debate would be closed
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: alan on July 12, 2011, 05:35:12 pm
 :-' Yeah, there is that.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on July 13, 2011, 08:27:30 am
maybe if Sam and Charles argue with him. Anna could help
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: alan on July 13, 2011, 05:55:26 pm
Yeah she is technically outside of the whole rank thing. 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: little gray wolf on July 14, 2011, 03:47:47 am
my point is that she wouldn't have to listen to Bran's comand
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DebF on February 13, 2013, 01:33:02 pm
Hi, neewbie here, so apologies if I'm covering ground that's already been raked over.

I've just skimmed through most of the thread, and while there are a number of references to un-mated female wolves being at the bottom of the pack, when I read Silver Borne, I took notes. I then returned it, so I can't guarantee they're accurate. Apologies for any transcription errors, but here's what I wrote down about the fight (spoilers!)

Mercy points out another problem. Paul doesn't stand within three of Adam.
Adam, Mercy, Darryl, Auriele, Warren, Honey, Paul.
The official code of conduct for the pack (which Ben has to memorise before he joined the pack - does that make it specific to EACH pack?) says challenge 'within three men'. It doesn't say the challenger has to be a man.
Mercy also says she has too high a stake, and passes the decision to Darryl, Auriele and Warren.
Darryl says that women are too precious to risk in challenges, Auriele says that would be true if they were child-bearing, but they aren't.
...

Her mate Peter is submissive, so Honey was considered the lowest member of the pack except for Mary Jo. (Notes End)


That begs the question: Does the ruling on MJ's involvement in the fight mean that the pack have realised that Honey has her own place in the pack, independent of Peter? Or is that just how Mercy is seeing the dominance relationships?

My main question though, is:
When I read 'River Marked', I found this:
"He (Darryl) and his mate, Auriele, had become Jesse’s de facto babysitters when her mother left because female
werewolves were few and far between: Adam’s pack only had two."

SO does that mean that something happened to Mary Jo and/or Honey between the two books? Did I miss something? Was the statement meant to be that Adam's pack had only two female werewolves APART from Auriele?
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DebF on February 13, 2013, 01:35:23 pm
Also there was some earlier discussion about Omegas and where they fit into the Pack structure.
Not sure of the etiquette about posting large quotes, but I found this incredibly fascinating and revealing:

In 'Hunting Ground' where Anna and the young Austrian Omega have a conversation in the office,
He says 'I get that I am the bottom of the pack - but how am I different from the submissive wolves?'
Anna: 'Did they tell you that you were on the bottom?'
'Not exactly'
Anna: 'Good, because you aren't. You are outside the pack structure. You're the only one who can defy the Alpha. ...
Most werewolves have a built-in meter that tells them whether a wolf is dominant to them or not. If the meter doesn't tell them right away.. well, they usually fight it out'
'This I have seen'
Anna: 'Right then. That's something you and I are missing. ... I can still tell - even with humans - who is in charge and who isn't. But it doesn't have anything to do with their relationship with me.'
..
Anna: 'Dominant wolves - their instincts tell them to protect with violence and control their environment. They are ready to kill. The more dominant the wolf, the quicker he is to kill. Less dominant wolves cede the authority to protect to the more dominant wolf. An Alpha is the ultimate control freak, ready to kill anyone who threatens his pack. He protects the weaker from the strong and suffers no defiance of his will'
'Submissive wolves are the kinder, gentler wolves. They are missing the killing instinct. That doesn't mean they won't kill under the right circumstances, just that it is not their first answer to every problem. They don't need to control everyone around them. With a submissive wolf, a dominant wolf will relax because the lesser wolf is no threat'.

>>> Here's the kicker <<<
'An Omega wolf is an Alpha wolf who is extremely zen.'
...
'No one gives Omegas any crap either, and our job is to protect our packs, even from themselves. The zen part comes because we don't have to kill anyone to get our way.'
'Alpha, Minus most of the tough stuff, and our magic is different. With our magic, we make our pack happy'.
...
'Omega doesn't mean weak'
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ElefiNecol on February 13, 2013, 06:22:06 pm
My main question though, is:
When I read 'River Marked', I found this:
"He (Darryl) and his mate, Auriele, had become Jesse’s de facto babysitters when her mother left because female
werewolves were few and far between: Adam’s pack only had two."

SO does that mean that something happened to Mary Jo and/or Honey between the two books? Did I miss something? Was the statement meant to be that Adam's pack had only two female werewolves APART from Auriele?

Welcome! You can find the answer to your question in the Corrections/Mistakes (http://www.hurog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3076.0) section of the WeresFAQ -  It's actually an error and there are indeed still 3.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on February 14, 2013, 12:02:32 am
The question of where Honey stands in the pack hasn't been resolved yet, nor Mary Jo.  Curiously, nobody seems to feel a need to figure out where Auriele stands...
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Prince of Pain on April 03, 2013, 04:47:24 am
The question of where Honey stands in the pack hasn't been resolved yet, nor Mary Jo.  Curiously, nobody seems to feel a need to figure out where Auriele stands...

There is the Pack Leader, the Pack Rivals and those so far down the Dominance scale that they are relatively unimportant... until they come out of no where with a knife to the back!!!



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on April 03, 2013, 09:06:40 am
Yeah, but they're not going to be able to hold the position, usually.  Arthur of Britain was an exception.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DandelionWine on April 08, 2013, 05:01:02 am
Very interesting point about Auriele's status!  She's not only high in the pack because of Daryl's position, but because she's a dominant personality herself...  Question is, could she keep a fairly high level (if not the second) without Daryl there if it became accepted for women to do so?  Would women WANT to climb higher in the pack?  I'd say so, and Auriele just might.  Mary Jo probably would, Honey not so much.  She's happy being lower in the pack, perhaps because it's how she was raised as a human, it sounds like she is older than either Mary Jo or Auriele, and she's been a wolf longer than the others so that's the tradition she's accustomed to.  (or so it seems to me)

I'm thinking that the mate rules are actually good for the most part, because if any pack member is upset or worried about the positon of their mate, it's going to upset the whole balance and someone could challenge say Mercy, or any other Alpha's mate to unbalance the pack as a whole.   Same for any other pack member's mate really.  I guess that's a consideration in the decision process of mating with another wolf.  Honey who is a pretty dominant personality seemed plenty happy with Peter and many other combinations are as likely.  Perhaps the rule needs to apply in both directions though, whichever of the mated pair is higher?

It seems to me that the rules for single females are likely to change gradually though.  Bran is plenty able to make sweeping rules, but he doesn't seem to be all that eager to micro-manage things.  He's a dictator who seems to pick his battles well and if some pack starts to allow single females more leeway, (this doesn't have to be Adam's pack don't forget) that Alpha can enforce his will within his pack, some who don't like it can leave, and some who hear about it might petition to join that pack because they might like it.  I'm thinking that's kind of interesting!

Pack position depends on more than physical ability, and if Honey doesn't want to participate in the jockeying for position, she can stay where she's at now as an un-mated female, which was approximately where she was at as Peter's mate.  I think she's going to feel judged if Mary Jo rises on her own, but that is an unfair thing IMO.  I know plenty of older women who are personalities to be reckoned with, and strong physically too, but we are all products of our upbringing, and though she's a strong personality and a physically strong person/wolf, if she doesn't have the drive, that's all there is to do about it.  I suspect she'll find she's more able to compete than she knows, but that doesn't mean she's going to like it or want to do anything about it.  I'd be ok with that.  Testosterone poisoning isn't a factor for us after all.   :-whistle 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on April 08, 2013, 08:38:49 am
Remember that testosterone & estrogen aren't that far apart chemically, though. ;)
It might turn out more like how couples decide on religious matters for the household, eventually.  Each pair just sits down and thrashes it out for themselves, presents that decision to the pack/world and calls it done.
Title: Why not an Female Alpha
Post by: Mel on August 26, 2013, 08:31:40 am
Hello guys. I’ve gone through the frequently asked questions and hopefully this is a fresh topic for you!
As already noted the European wolves have no Alpha of Alphas, the wolves left are not the most dominant. So why not have a new dominant female appear and shake the ranks up a bit. I’ve chosen some female figures from ancient history to show that women can be powerful, bloodthirsty & great leaders too. Wolf packs always have a dominant pair, one of which will be replaced in cases of fatality. But who says that among werewolves it should always be a man as the individual leader? Yes the females are rare but surely a strong willed individual with a healthy dose of craftiness would be able to rule? Most of the women below died at a ripe old age.
Boudicca AD 60 England
Empress Wu 625AD China
Tomyris 530BC Iran
Hatshepsut 1479BC Egypt
Catherine the Great 1762 Russia
Queen Nzinga 1583 Angola
Empress Wu 625AD China
I hope this question is not deemed as a “spoiler”, love the books & this is my first ever forum so sorry for being so lengthy!
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DandelionWine on September 07, 2013, 07:24:13 am
Plenty of females have filled the shoes of despots over the ages, but werewolves have their own customs and history, not to mention the whole pack magic thing.   I suspect the changes would need to be much more gradual, especially in Europe where traditions haven't moved as much as in the US where Bran has been somewhat laid back about changes within packs.  He doesn't obviously push them, but doesn't block them either.  If Adam has Warren in a fairly high spot in his pack, that's ok.  If he brings a Coyote shifter into the pack, that's ok since the magic allowed it.  He balances the outside influences with tradition and I kinda think he does do a little gentle influencing. 

I actually doubt Patty wants to get too far removed from her storyline so the focus doesn't get too diluted, though I guess I'd like to hear word about a few other packs' experiences have changed as far as modern stuff goes... but the focus is on Adam's packs in the MT books, and lately on how the general public is getting along with the packs in the A&O books.  (also on Charles and Anna and the Marrok pack of course too)...

I know we like to discuss a lot of things here, but really, getting too far afield in the books would not be true to the storylines!  Going to Europe with this would be an awful stretch.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Prince of Pain on September 07, 2013, 08:48:05 pm
Plenty of females have filled the shoes of despots over the ages, but werewolves have their own customs and history, not to mention the whole pack magic thing.   I suspect the changes would need to be much more gradual, especially in Europe where traditions haven't moved as much as in the US where Bran has been somewhat laid back about changes within packs.  He doesn't obviously push them, but doesn't block them either.  If Adam has Warren in a fairly high spot in his pack, that's ok.  If he brings a Coyote shifter into the pack, that's ok since the magic allowed it.  He balances the outside influences with tradition and I kinda think he does do a little gentle influencing. 

I actually doubt Patty wants to get too far removed from her storyline so the focus doesn't get too diluted, though I guess I'd like to hear word about a few other packs' experiences have changed as far as modern stuff goes... but the focus is on Adam's packs in the MT books, and lately on how the general public is getting along with the packs in the A&O books.  (also on Charles and Anna and the Marrok pack of course too)...

I know we like to discuss a lot of things here, but really, getting too far afield in the books would not be true to the storylines!  Going to Europe with this would be an awful stretch.

Plus the other thing you've got to remember about Bran is that he's an Alpha's Alpha.  And all Alpha's are control freaks.  He's used to male domination of the packs.  It doesn't effect him personally (too much) since he's the Marrock and he can give any women in his vicinity basically whatever power he wants whenever he wants and who's going to say boo?  Also remember male domination is something he's grown up with and grown used to.  Inertia and Control.  With the inertia actually helping to increase his control.

So he might be on the female rights band wagon in an intellectual/ethical level.  But anything that threatens his control of North America is going to have to take a back seat.  Such as revolutionary enfranchisement that potentially threatens his position making him or north america look weak to outsiders.  On the other hand, taking as much of a hands off position on his Individual Alpha's and how they run their packs really adds to his 'benevolent dictator' role, versus say lots of those euro-top dog alpha's and even local NA alpaha who come across as tyrannical dictators.  As long as he limits his changes inside subordinate alpha's packs to the removal of those alphas who challenge or offend him and the occasional tyrannical alpha leader whose own pack is singing the Marroks praises afterwards, then he limits his challenges from below and enhances North America's werewolf happiness levels.  All of which helps him stay in power and helps him eliminate the excesses such as they are experiencing in europe.

Plus I suppose its one thing to say those dominant females like Honey should have their shot at the brass ring, and another entirely to look around and see that because of the size factor the majority of the females (even if they had to right to) don't want to get killed in dominance challenges they know they can't win and then push the female rights bolder up hill.  Not when they have so few females in the packs as it is.

I think it would be hard enough to make equal rights an equal right for the girls, when the females are so low in numbers to begin with and would get slaughtered in pack dominance challenges (assuming Adam's pack and Honey are any guide stick) with possibly a lower ranking werewolf challenging some higher ranking male werewolf's mate in order to kill her and destabalize the pack.  Say if his brother was killed and he wanted revenge or any of another hundred things that might happen.

Making some more complicated separate but equal charter for the ladies would also be a big headache.  With all the special butterfly provisions.  As people naturally try to pick and choose the parts that would beneift them the most.  Definitely a headache even if successful so I suppose he probably is looking at it much like the Federal Government was originally set up to look at the various States.  The lower level packs beneath the Marrock are the test beds of innovation and he can poiint to something that works and something that doesn't and then pick and chose.  With a pilot program already up and running to emulate.  If and when he gets around to it.



Prince of Pain
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Mel on September 17, 2013, 12:37:38 am
I think I am missing something, from reading the books it is mentioned that dominance fights take place when the ranking between two wolves is undefined, when the two wolves are closely matched. Most dominance issues are settled with a face down (otherwise I think that brother wolf would be scraping every five minutes’).
So setting aside Europe for the moment if there was a dominant female as Alpha in the North America’s the challenges she would get would be from neighbouring Alphas who wanted to expand their territory. Seeing as the Alphas are not constantly already trying to encroach on each other’s territory should we presume it is because of the Marrock or because they are closely matched & already have enough on their plate?
Challenges would take place to begin with until dominance and ability to rule/lead had been established. Brans wolf it has been mentioned is small so maybe size doesn’t matter (just forget his age for the moment!) And let’s not forget that challenges don’t always end fatally.
I really don’t think a female Alpha either in Europe or in North America would make Bran look weak. The European wolves are low in numbers and do not pose a threat, there are low numbers in Australia & Africa and one possible wolf in Asia who changed Adam.
The Fae only appear to discriminate against the weak and the Vampires just don’t seem to have the numbers or the desire to work together. The female I agree would have to at least appear to be Brans Idea and I concede that at the moment within the story lines of the books this would not be a good time for yet more change. However I still stand by what I said before “why not”!.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: catchmeifyoucan on September 17, 2013, 02:22:19 am
Until Adam brought Warren into his pack and let him gain position, gay weres were abused and killed whenever possible by other packs.  It didn't take Bran to make that change.  He just had to support it after the fact by not having Warren removed and killed.

I think the same situation would apply to women pack members.  If one has the ability to take a role in the pack (and I might be mixing my authors here, but wasn't there a mention that some other pack had a woman as third?) and Bran didn't step in to stop it, I think the change would start to happen. 

Size isn't the deciding factor in a dominance fight since Bran is a very small wolf and he has built quite an empire in America.  I think it is the innate strength of will and dominance of the person in the battle as much as anything else.  And we've already seen several dominance fights where the weaker person did not get killed.  In fact, I think the only times we've seen battles where people have died it has been a punishment fight where Charles has had to kill the other wolf (at least I can't think of another situation off the top of my head) so that might be one of the things that slowed down as the wolves have come out.

I think we just need to have more women want to step out of the submissive role they've been placed in by were society for it to become acceptable for women to lead.  Lets not forget that a lot of the women that are currently weres are probably as old as the men (or older since they haven't been involved in much fighting) so they were probably raised to believe that women should submit to men.  More modern women such as Anna, Mercy and Mary Jo (Honey prefers to submit to men even though she is dominant, if I remember correctly) will be interested in giving all women the chance to be more powerful and ranked within the pack.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: laurel97 on February 08, 2015, 04:54:48 pm
I'm waiting for a lone Female Wolf to enter the stage. I think Bran might half support female rights, because he knows that he's the medium between the genders. I think the problem in the books is that women seem content with their situation, and aren't openly rebelling. And it is a dominance thing, if a person was to openly rebel against the Marrok, it would be a long struggle and require series guts.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: ironkitten on February 09, 2015, 12:37:01 pm
I forget which book, but Bran already took on a stray female were. Plus as previously stated Adam's pack and the Marrock's pack usually take the more delicate cases. A lot of the dominance thing is just that - an animal instinct that has served to preserve certain animal species. In very few rare cases there is the female alpha out there. I think Anna since she is an omega would be a fun pack leader - all the things that could go wrong with that situation would be right up coyote's alley.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Patti L. on February 09, 2015, 10:49:54 pm
I forget which book, but Bran already took on a stray female were. Plus as previously stated Adam's pack and the Marrock's pack usually take the more delicate cases. A lot of the dominance thing is just that - an animal instinct that has served to preserve certain animal species. In very few rare cases there is the female alpha out there. I think Anna since she is an omega would be a fun pack leader - all the things that could go wrong with that situation would be right up coyote's alley.

Anna is Omega, not Alpha.  Not happening.  Mercy, on the other hand... She hasn't the physical attributes, but like an Alpha or an Omega, she has a strong desire to protect those around her, her 'pack'.   She tends to see the not-horrible people in the world as her pack.

Also, many animal species have matriarchies, where a particular female is In Charge, if not technically the alpha.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DandelionWine on March 08, 2015, 03:45:21 pm
 Agreeing with Patti L. and with much of the other things said here, such as Anna absolutely would NOT be interested in any sort of dominance fight, for one thing she doesn’t need to dominate anyone and she doesn’t feel any big need to ‘submit’ to Charles OR Bran or anyone else, even if she does defer to them a lot of the time because well… reality!  It seems to me that the dominant personality of the wolf and person much overrides size or sex.  I didn’t always agree with my boss, but I knew the boss had more than what I could see to manage, and different aspects of the job to manage. 

I have to wonder how many of the women weres feel the need to rise in the hierarchy.  I imagine that mostly depends on their personality and for that matter, IMO, most women I know may want to get to a better place at work, but it’s not for ALL the same reasons men do. In both sexes it seems to me that they both may want better pay, more stability, think they can do a better job, as well as some I’ve probably missed, but I’ve watched men try to get positions they don’t really want all that much, and perhaps aren’t even all that well suited to, just so they can be the ‘boss’.  Not trying to pick a fight on that, it’s just my opinion, and I’m old. 

Mary Jo is bugged by her need to downplay her strength and attitude at her mundane job as a firefighter, and she doesn’t much like her place in the pack as a were, so to me she clearly wants to take her place dominance wise in the pack.  Honey is happy with things as they are.  I’m not sure that’s a conflict. It looks like Mary Jo is likely to continue her struggle through the levels if she chooses just as any male were may do and Honey can accept a lower rank just as any male were can choose to do by not challenging anyone for a higher place.  Warren is not asserting his position as second even though he could force the issue with Daryl if he chose to after all.  It seems to me that he’s not doing this partly for the good of the pack overall, partly because to push the issue would cause a lot of problems for Adam, and partly because it would make his life needlessly complicated.   

As far as the Were packs go otherwise, Omega means ‘outside’ the dominance structure, while still being within the pack.  Since members of the pack are both human and wolf to some degree, no matter which form any or all are in, they include human AND wolf aspects all the time, luckily the submissive Weres have a respected spot in the Were pack as opposed to a wild pack.

In a true wolf pack the Omega wolf is FAR from what it means in Patty’s Were packs.  What biologists call an omega in a wild wolf pack is more what Patty calls a submissive wolf, only even lower in some ways if you are going to anthropomorphize them.  We may not appreciate it in a wild pack, but it is what it is. 

I don’t personally think Bran is either for or against women in the packs having a different role in any pack, it’s more a case of him not interfering with the decisions of any pack’s Alpha as long as said pack is solidly under the Alpha’s control and functioning well in society so neither his pack nor any other packs are in danger.  Bran isn’t big on change, he just recognizes that it is sometimes unavoidable and will probably need to be managed.

 A Were pack isn’t like an organization where talent or ability should be recognized fairly.  It’s about magic, instinct, (animal and human instinct) concern about humans and the society outside the pack which means enforcing best behavior from BOTH sides of the pack members, and a lot of other things which I’m not coming up with at the moment.  Probably, different pack members have differing levels of wolf instinct behavior issues too.  We’re NOT going to *convert* wolf packs to modern sensibilities, for one thing, they’re Patty’s creations.  If we are going to pretend they were a real situation though, I’d guess that time would take care of the issues and most of the wolves after all would have a lot of time to work it out eventually
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Prince of Pain on March 23, 2015, 05:29:19 am
I forget which book, but Bran already took on a stray female were. Plus as previously stated Adam's pack and the Marrock's pack usually take the more delicate cases. A lot of the dominance thing is just that - an animal instinct that has served to preserve certain animal species. In very few rare cases there is the female alpha out there. I think Anna since she is an omega would be a fun pack leader - all the things that could go wrong with that situation would be right up coyote's alley.

Anna is Omega, not Alpha.  Not happening.  Mercy, on the other hand... She hasn't the physical attributes, but like an Alpha or an Omega, she has a strong desire to protect those around her, her 'pack'.   She tends to see the not-horrible people in the world as her pack.

Also, many animal species have matriarchies, where a particular female is In Charge, if not technically the alpha.


You know I agree.  That said.  I always thought that if you had say 3-4 submissives and a disfunctional Ben type minor low powered dominant all thrust together in an Anne story, where Charles and other dominant weres weren't present and they had to spent a significant amount of time together away from other werewolves.  That the very 'zen alpha' which is our Omega might be forced to jolly everyone along together and defacto take over the minipack, 'for the good of the pack' wherein the dominant isn't very stable and knows it.  Where the submissives 'can't' stand up to him if he cycles off the bulkhead for internal reasons exacerbated by fear of the stressful position.  She might find her 'zen' state causing her some mental pain.

I do think that if she did get put in charge in such a situation that it wouldn't look much like she was a temporary Alpha right up until she found herself at the top of a the miniature pack bonds.

That said yes its a contrived situation.  But I do honestly think there is a situation out there where her Omega qualities could force her to take over.  I.E. a lot of submissives and one dysfunctional dominent that's minor on the dominance scale and honestly doesn't want to hurt anyone but might not be able to help it in certain circumstances.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: lostbird on March 23, 2015, 06:02:04 am
You know I agree.  That said.  I always thought that if you had say 3-4 submissives and a disfunctional Ben type minor low powered dominant all thrust together in an Anne story, where Charles and other dominant weres weren't present and they had to spent a significant amount of time together away from other werewolves.  That the very 'zen alpha' which is our Omega might be forced to jolly everyone along together and defacto take over the minipack, 'for the good of the pack' wherein the dominant isn't very stable and knows it.  Where the submissives 'can't' stand up to him if he cycles off the bulkhead for internal reasons exacerbated by fear of the stressful position.  She might find her 'zen' state causing her some mental pain.

I do think that if she did get put in charge in such a situation that it wouldn't look much like she was a temporary Alpha right up until she found herself at the top of a the miniature pack bonds.

That said yes its a contrived situation.  But I do honestly think there is a situation out there where her Omega qualities could force her to take over.  I.E. a lot of submissives and one dysfunctional dominent that's minor on the dominance scale and honestly doesn't want to hurt anyone but might not be able to help it in certain circumstances.



I guess I'm not seeing this because I've been under the impression that submissives, while not rare, are not abundant in a pack, either. So for me, your premise doesn't work. After Peter died, there are mentions of Adam's pack having lost it's heart--which is what a submissive is.


Not saying there can't be 3 or 4 in a pack. Just that I think 1 or 2 is probably the paradigm in the Mercyverse.


Also, this is just my subjective opinion. Based on nothing more than a feeling.


lb ...  8)
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Mel on April 17, 2015, 11:08:51 am
In a true wolf pack the Omega wolf is FAR from what it means in Patty’s Were packs.  What biologists call an omega in a wild wolf pack is more what Patty calls a submissive wolf, only even lower in some ways if you are going to anthropomorphize them.  We may not appreciate it in a wild pack, but it is what it is. 



 Hello, I think you might find this article interesting: http://www.felixho.be/en/canineSquad/wolf_2.html
I like yourself always thought Omega meant bottom of the pack but apparently not! I have also attached a quote from Shaun Ellis (not sure how it will turn out!), a really fascinating read.
I have to say loving the new wolf in "Dead Heat", I think Chelsea is a step towards a future female Alpha, can't wait to see where Patricia Briggs is going to do with her creations next  LOL
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Mel on April 17, 2015, 11:10:59 am
I do apologise, I've tried to quote Dandelionwine :-whistle but mucked up :-LOVE
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DandelionWine on April 23, 2015, 02:05:45 pm
I do apologise, I've tried to quote Dandelionwine :-whistle but mucked up :-LOVE

No need to apologize Mel, it's a bit of a challenge sometimes!  To actually quote just a part of someone's post you'd need to click on the quote symbol on their post, which will quote the entire post, then highlight and delete the parts you don't want to include on your post!  Bit of a pain, but it's effective enough once you get the hang of it.

I read what that link took me to, and it's interesting, and possibly or even probably absolutely correct, but not possible for us to check on really, and I'm just not feeling the urge to research the person doing the research (yeah, lazy me!). In the case of the Alpha and Omega series, it sort of fits in and I'm willing to go along with it or at least allow for the possibility.  Anna IS on the 'outside' of the pack structure, and protected by the higher ups, but also by pack magic, which we can't study or confirm since few if any of us have access to either a real wolf pack to study let alone a pack Patty's of weres to study! 

(still saying that Anna just doesn't have any desire, or the drive or need to become an Alpha though! ;) )
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Holo on June 09, 2015, 07:02:05 pm
I've always wondered why Bran allows this sexism in werewolf society to persist. I mean, he saw what happened to Anna, and I'm sure he's seen worse. He even has difficulty finding a suitable pack for the 13-year-old Kara because he doesn't trust more than half his alphas to not abuse/rape a young girl. More so that some werewolves who hunt down and kill a child molester, I feel that he should be telling his wolves to treat their female packmates with respect or deal with Charles.
When it is clear that female werewolves can be just as dominant as males, this system of giving them bottom rank in the pack just doesn't make sense. What is worse is that the narrative implies this is the natural way of things, as female werewolves draw their power from their male counterparts but not vice versa. Anna has relied on Charles' dominant power multiple times to get herself out of sticky situations. But never has Charles drawn from her omega power.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: pondhawk on June 09, 2015, 08:00:19 pm
Charles relies on Anna's Omega magic to help him keep an even keel. And the narrative does not imply that the sexism is normal. Why do you think the heroines are commenting on it frequently in their internal dialogues? Over the arc of a long-running series like this, the author has the opportunity to explore ways that unjust systems can be recognized, challenged, and changed over time. To have that happen in one book would be completely unrealistic and not nearly as interesting as exploring the implications and options throughout the course of the series. Look at all the societies which have non-discrimination laws on the books, and show me one where those laws are not routinely broken. Even if he were so inclined, Bran is not naive enough to make a law until he has some confidence that he won't have to ask Charles to kill more than half his alphas for breaking it.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Prince of Pain on July 27, 2015, 05:36:32 pm
Females make up what 10% of the population... maybe less.  Males make up the other 80-90% and that's not likely to change in the short term (in any reasonable non-young wolf's mind), as the wolves have been working on the problem for millenium giving it their best efforts.  So its not like the females can say stop muzzling half your population!!!  But the males can say females are a precious and vanishing resource if we kill them off they won't suddenly start reappearing!

And while the women can be just as dominant as the males, they can't fight in their weight class against equally dominant males.  Its been commented on repeatedly that the women aren't as physically large as the males and thus 'most' dominance challenges (which are based on dominance and sheer unadulterated muscle power) would end with the female wolf dead.  See again the vanishing recourse.

Finally a two fold impact.  One Bran is the Merrok of a werewolves who choose their leaders by challenges (often to the death) and if even a significant fraction of his alphas and top dominant wolves in the packs are are strongly against something he 'imposes' on them from the top, then this isn't like in a democracy.  They'll challenge him and keep on challenging him until he's purged all such thinking from his packs or he's dead and an anti-feminist of the first rank takes over, thus leading us to our second problem either the women will feel a back lash like you wouldn't believe or the werewolves in america will have lost such strength in their individually best wolves as well as damaged pack cohesion to the breaking point, that they'd be ripe for an attack by say... the Fae (specifically certain grey lords) or the vampires or any other rogue group, like witches that moved against them.  Causing casualties that could be terrible.

Can they really afford to destabilize the entire organization over a point of principle that many would not believe in, when it could cause countless casualties and maybe even the subjugation of the american packs?  I'd think that a lot of people who do believe in the equal right to get yourself killed in a pack challenge, might reluctantly agree with the females should be protected group and keep the laws that have worked for millenium (if poorly or without enough liberty), if only to keep everyone from being killed.   Its the whole question of, do I risk the death of 10-30% of my pack (if we win or 70%+ if we losee) over the (enhanced) rights of 10-20%?  At that point you'll find many leaving behind the principle and embracing the practical.

That said as long as there is the free movement of individuals between the packs (or at least the option if you want it bad enough and are willing to burn a few bridges along the way) then you actually have what the founding fathers of the united states started with.  States rights.  If you don't like the state you're in, go to another state with different laws or rules or atmosphere.  And in this case state=pack.  But I'd think that if literally no pack out there felt the way you do, then that says something about what you want.  Add in the fact that new packs can be formed... say on an island for instance (if you didn't want to start off picking a fight and killing a bunch of other werewolves in order to start your organization off the ground) that again, if no women or male led packs are out there trying to do this (including you the agitator).  Then that also says something about the atmosphere and I'd argue the constituency you represent.

If enough females wanted a different kind of pack.  You can't tell me that they couldn't go out and get it, even if they had to found one themselves.  Even at 10% there are enough females, to forget about potential doting, loving or just plain principled mates along side a big fraction of them, to make a go of it if they really wanted it.

That it hasn't been, to this point (despite an ever increasing non-pre-sufferage era population and thus increasing non-pre-sufferage alpha's and females).  Maybe because of killing pack alphas but equally or more likely because of outside forces such as the Fae or Vampires, who would attack them.

All that said I fully expect to start seeing some kind of social changes in the books as they go along.  But probably not a sweeping top down dictatorial proclamation but rather a ground level swell that will be recognized and codified (with some limitations imposed at the Alpha and Marrock level) such as say.  Females who wish to join the dominance challenges must formally remove themselves from the protected female status.  They must give at least a month's notice (so that they're not staying protected until a dominant wolf is injured and then jump him from the proverbial dark with a knife in hand) and if they have a mate the mate must be in full agreement with her decision.  And I'm not sure how it would work with dominance deaths.  I mean you killed my mate must be bad enough when a physically weaker female see's her bigger male mate die.  What would happen if the female died and the male went berserk.  Hardly a fair fight if the Alpha or other dominant wolf just fought off his now dead mate.  Maybe the mate gets to watch over live camera feed but cant challenge the wolf who killed his mate for a week or so in order to let the other wolf heal up?

Lots of implications that you 'could' try to sweep away with dictatorial dictates from above.  But which if you didn't account for would cause disaffection in large segments of the population.  From my mate died because of your laws Marrock.  Die!  To I just lost a quarter of my pack because of your changes in our working fine traditional rules Marrock.  Die! Die! Die! etc.




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: DandelionWine on August 01, 2015, 12:43:28 pm
 Well stated Oh Prince!  One other thing is, it shouldn’t be forgotten that it’s not just the older Alphas, or the more misogynistic newer wolves who may not want the status quo to change!  As Catchmeifyoucan said, there are older females like Honey who aren’t entirely sure that THEY want too much change too soon either!   Mary Jo was certainly willing to get in the ring in Silver Born though to be fair, while death may have been a risk, she actually knew her opponent didn’t really want to kill her too.   Adam allowed the fight in a subtle way simply by not objecting to it, which he probably could have even in the poor position he was in with his pack, but by letting it happen, he actually gave female pack members the chance to continue the forward momentum if they really want to, without forcing it down anyone’s throat.
 
This is not a thing that can be easily dictated, and anyone who thinks it can be is probably fairly young in wolf years and even in human life experience.  It needs to grow and develop organically, with some nurturing along the way, including some fertilizer and proper pruning.  Bran can prune some of the worst abusers and offenders, but Alphas like Adam with Mercy by his side is helping to nurture the best behavior too. 
 
Oh yeah, we shouldn’t forget that Bran is a very old wolf.  We see him as pretty darn forward thinking, but I bet he’s not exactly positive HE wants things to change too much either.  The fact that he’s allowing it to happen may just be all he can manage.  My best guess is that he’s adopting a wait and see attitude, holding the option to act if and when it’s necessary.
 
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: Prince of Pain on October 05, 2015, 12:43:43 am
On the Bran front while I tend to think that he's sympathetic to the pro-you-can-die-in-challenges-too movement.  I'm not exactly sure how sympathetic he really is.  I mean he could be all like, yeah I wish with all my heart that Santa was real too but since I have yet to see him this millenium... Or communism for werewolves makes a great argument in theory but fails spectacularly in every real live test...

If the later is the case then I tend to think that we come to the second facet of his personality.  Which is he's the Marrok but he knows that holding a bunch of Alphas together isn't all gum drops and lolipops either.  Which is why he's take a really big hands off policy to date.  I mean Anne the Omega was in a really disfunctional pack with a dictatorial Alpha who had an insane mate and it was only when they started flagrantly violating pack law 'and' the pack began to destabalize in a bigger and bigger way that he took action.

If he's willing to put up with a certain amount of bad behavior from the non-touchy feelly packs (read violent and brutal law of the jungle packs), I could totally see him (out of fairness) pulling the same move with the pro-right-to-get-yourself-killed packs.  I.e. so long as your pack is stable and there's not a lot of violent oppression of its members I'll monitor and see, even if just like Santa Clause I have yet to see such an animal, or like communism for werewolves, I have yet to see that social system succeed for us in practice.

Wait and see and strongly advise and then if he has to send in Charles to clean up the mess afterwards.




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: lostbird on October 05, 2015, 05:35:27 am
... I don’t personally think Bran is either for or against women in the packs having a different role in any pack, it’s more a case of him not interfering with the decisions of any pack’s Alpha as long as said pack is solidly under the Alpha’s control and functioning well in society so neither his pack nor any other packs are in danger.  Bran isn’t big on change, he just recognizes that it is sometimes unavoidable and will probably need to be managed.
... we shouldn’t forget that Bran is a very old wolf.  We see him as pretty darn forward thinking, but I bet he’s not exactly positive HE wants things to change too much either.  The fact that he’s allowing it to happen may just be all he can manage.  My best guess is that he’s adopting a wait and see attitude, holding the option to act if and when it’s necessary.
I don't think these sentiments can be stressed enough. I can't remember where, but I do remember that at some point Bran likened his role to that of a prime minister more than a king. I see him as more of a benevolent dictator (as someone else has mentioned). A close read of all the MT and A&O books shows that he tends to listen carefully and observe as much as possible before he makes a decision. NO decision he's made has EVER been made on the spur of the moment or just because there seems to be growing consensus. Using the Warren example, Bran (and Charles) had to have known for some time that Warren was gay. Yet he left it up to Adam--an alpha he trusts--to deal with this 'problem' within his own pack on Adam's own terms. It's pretty clear that Bran is not going to just step in and upset the NA alphas apple cart for the sake of human-centric social/political correctness.


Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: chloe on October 08, 2015, 09:08:05 am
Yes, I agree. Bran's main goal is to protect his wolves and keep them alive (note: alive, not necessarily happy).  If any action in the packs causes deaths or may cause deaths (except legal dominance fights) he steps in.  But only after careful observation and evidence that yes, wolves are dying.  His forward thinking and willingness to change is also shown in his relationship with Mercy.  I mean, she is a coyote!  And now she's Adams mate/wife, so almost like an Alpha of a pack.  Of course, she is a useful tool too, ridding Bran of problems in the Tri-cities area.  Sometimes I liken Bran to the fey.  They will let you live if you are interesting and don't cause too much trouble for them.  I liked the beginning of Fair Game where Anna argues with Bran about Charles.  I'd like to see more interaction between Bran and Anna.
Title: Re: Female werewolves, women's rights, and female pack?
Post by: chloe on October 09, 2015, 07:04:57 pm
Mel said in april:
Quote
I have to say loving the new wolf in "Dead Heat", I think Chelsea is a step towards a future female Alpha, can't wait to see where Patricia Briggs is going to do with her creations next 

I am in total agreement about Chelsea being a future female alpha.  That's the first thing I thought of when she was turned.  She is witchborn, so is Bran.  I seriously suspect that part of Bran's power is due to his part witchiness, even though he supposedly suppresses it.  She is also super protective of her family, to the extent of hurting herself over them.  Another big Alpha characteristic.  I really hope Patty does something like this with Chelsea!

Also, this is a great thread.  I've really enjoyed reading everyones well thought out arguments about female power in the packs.  So great to know others have the same thoughts as me!  :)