The Hurog Family

Patricia Briggs' Books => The Weres => Mercy's Garage: General Series Topics & Themes Board => Topic started by: Elle on August 20, 2007, 09:26:22 pm

Title: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Elle on August 20, 2007, 09:26:22 pm
I came across this line in Blood Bound:
Quote
Being Alpha was more than dominant. There is magic in the bindings of a pack that gives power to their leader, he can draw on their strength and give some of it back to them.

I find the whole idea of pack magic to be fascinating. We've talked a bit about how Bran in full force would be like. Could he draw on all the packs of North America? That would be a pretty drastic last resort. Would he be even able to? You have to wonder if there's a distance limit...or no limit at all to the need.

We've seen it a couple of times with Adam. The pack both healing him...and he lending his power to Warren's healing process.

I'm definitely interested in seeing more of pack magic, and I can't help but speculate that we'll see some variation of it, either Bran or Adam, in the upcoming Charles and Anna books...or the third Mercy installment.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Spryte on August 22, 2007, 01:31:53 pm
I really want to know what happens if Bran ever calls on his Alpha Power. The results could be amazing. With power from all the packs in the US, what could you do with that?  :o
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on August 22, 2007, 09:06:03 pm
Hmm, how much could he push it out, too?  Would it filter through the other Alphas?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Spryte on August 23, 2007, 02:32:31 pm
I know have this odd country wide picture in my head of all the alphas in the US kind of cocking their head, and then in Montana, bran begins to glow (hey, it is a lot of power).
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Pink Elephants on September 20, 2007, 11:25:11 am
I know have this odd country wide picture in my head of all the alphas in the US kind of cocking their head, and then in Montana, bran begins to glow (hey, it is a lot of power).

he he glowing. Someone should scratch behind his ear with a foot...while human. ;D
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Spryte on September 20, 2007, 11:40:10 am
Ha Ha!  ;D
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Iris101 on September 20, 2007, 01:38:34 pm
LOL :)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 05, 2007, 04:40:38 pm
thats great
hopefully we'll learn more in Iron Kissed about the dfference between alpha and dominant wolves
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Grey Drakkon on November 05, 2007, 04:51:40 pm
To paraphrase Highlander "There can be only one." ;) 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 05, 2007, 04:52:39 pm
ha nice, but i wonder what futre problems these differences pose for adam and samuel and mercy's decision
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Ellyll on November 05, 2007, 05:54:31 pm
If it ever came to a fight between Samuel and Adam, it might make a difference. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kiersten Walks Funny on November 05, 2007, 08:44:32 pm
especially with adam being able to call from the pack, plus since he is so dominant to begin with - being right after sam
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: saberhack on October 11, 2008, 01:56:20 am
Hi all first time poster and just finished the books.
and i was struck with some thoughts about the wolves in the military.
rank and dominance and how they would conflict

a bit of history, I spent 12 years in in the Army '92-'04, and most of them as a Military Police.
in the MP corps we have to deal with rank and authority all the time, where some stuffy officer tries to pull his rank on you the patrolman, it is one of the first things a new Private has to learn and get over. but at the end of the exchange they were both human.


wolves and the military,

Branches:
Navy/Marines: no wolves in these branches, to much water and time on ships.
Army: perfered
Air Force: possible but what self respecting wolf would be in the AF... thats just silly

The majority of wolves i see as in the military are lone wolves. Now i don't see the military as being a great carrier path for a wolf, due to many factor. The first being training time and deployed time: there have been many time when i was in the field where looking at the full moon on guard duty. How would a moon called wolf cope, i have not seen them as being able to resist the call. and  if they change in the field well that could be bad, even if they didn't eat some on, the SGT of the Guard walks around and doesn't find one of his people they are gonna have a bad day once they are found, and if they are still not out of the closet well, the military takes it personal when one there guys is not guarding his brothers while they are sleeping. Also with the wolf natural need to dominate lesser, this can also lead to altercations, but i will talk about that in  min.

The military how would they act, well that is a big thoughts i believe the they would form a wolf company, take all the outed wolves and stick them in once central area, to either 1) be a show piece or 2) buried, in some back water post.

the Company: now here is where the wolf and the military really collide, if the army sets all the outed wolves in one company and tells them to play nice and sit and stay.
what would happen if the command is of lesser dominance than a subordinate, wooo that would chap some wolfs tail.
how would a bunch of lone wolves react to forced pack, and a weak alpha, but not have to ability to challenge for pack dominance, due to rank structure.

What to do with them, well that is grand question, will they pull them out as a show piece
" Look here is our tame wolf pack, see them sit  see them stay, good dog, there is nothing to be afraid of here."
that will not be a good thing for them
ok thats all for now,

discuss


EDIT: edited spelling in title, charmed, books mod
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: OTenshi on October 11, 2008, 02:07:16 am
I have to agree that any wolf in the Navy or Marines would have to have been Changed after passing the swim quals, but there are plenty of Marine and Navy personnel who don't go on ships on a regular basis.  The whole 'first in, last out' thing with Marines would appeal to some werewolves, though.  Marines are netorious for having rank drilled into them, if he were Changed after being through bootcamp I don't see any reason that his wolf wouldn't understand that, even if he didn't like it, just like Asil went along with his Alphas even when he was more dominant.  The full moon would be a difficult thing to get around, though, no matter what branch they were in.  I tend to agree with the AF thing, but then again what better branch for setting your own days off?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on October 11, 2008, 09:14:35 am
Welcome, Saberhack!
First, while I've got the power, would you mind if I take that 'c' out of "Ranck"? 
Second, yeah, not going to be a lot of Navy werewolves, not with the water.  Marines are iffy; if they can stay away from water, or if they wear lifejackets relitiously, they should be all right.  I don't know any statistics, but don't a lot of Marines go through their whole careers not serving aboard any ships or boats of any kind?

Third, I don't see sticking all the werewolves into one company as a good solution at all.  That's like sticking all your snipers or all your SEAL teams into one company.  They need to be spread around, where their special abilities can be shared out to those who don't have them, quicliy & efficiently.  What good is a company of werewolves, either being filmed by the press or guarding a hole in the ground, when you need 6 stealthy, low tech hostage rescue teams in South America, Iran, Iraq, Afganistan?  Why turn them into parlor poodles when they could be guarding the President, ambassadors, etc.?  And since you generally can't tell by looking who is or isn't were, how about including them on negotiation teams, to sniff out lies?  Shoot, how about doing away with torture for information, long known to lead to the victim lying, just to stop the pain?  Just get a werewolf in to question the person, and know when they are or aren't lying? 

You had other questions/points, but I don't have your post in front of me, so I'll stop now.

Good debate points!  You're fitting in!
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: saberhack on October 11, 2008, 11:27:13 am
Hi all thanks for the typo fix, :) spelling and I were never good friend also my wifes cat keeps moving the keys while i am not looking.  i am gonna get that cat one day.

thank you all for replying to the posts, now for the counter points  :)

you asked why they would be moved in to one unit, on a whole i could see it done because of the general fear of the humans to some thigh they don't understand, the military being the military i am not seeing a don't ask don't tell fitting this group.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: gryphon340 on October 11, 2008, 01:46:56 pm
Rangers, always remeber respect the rank, not the man
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 12:24:23 pm
I know we can't make Patti write what we want but.....

I'd like to see Ben kicks Paul's butt! first he challenges Warren and then Adam! ICK. :)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Ellyll on April 05, 2010, 12:44:51 pm
Since Ben is one of the least dominant wolves in the pack, that seems unlikely.  Why Ben?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 12:50:40 pm
Well, so he can move up in rank...isn't that how it works? you kill or beat a dominant wolf and you get their position. And why not Ben? We already know Adam, Darryl and Warren could do it no real drama there! :) Of course, Adam being weak and previously injured made that action packed BUT! if he had been 100%...there would have been no big fight, right?  I thought the fight between Paul and Mary Jo was GREAT!  And I have to say I appreciated the fact that he didn't want to hurt her. I love it when Patti goes into detail about how the pack works together, the heirachy and all that....I find it very interesting.

I have an oddball question:  What happens to the mate of a defeated wolf? where does she go?
and if the unmated females belong to Adam...what EXACTLY does that mean? Does he play the role of dad or what???
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: ladylynx on April 05, 2010, 12:55:15 pm
That's is a good question. I hadn't thought of that.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on April 05, 2010, 01:12:25 pm
Am I the only Ben lover here? I think he could be a great character to develop more.  I see changes in him already! he saved Medea!!!!!
:D No, I love him too. I definitely have a soft spot for him. Warren too.

Well, since Samuel has now been claimed (*sigh*... OK I want him to live happily ever after with a wonderful woman and so on)... Ben's the next most lovable single man in the pack.   He just keeps growing on me.  

wolverine- What I've understood is that yes, in order to move up in the pack, a wolf has to challenge and beat a higher-ranking wolf.  However, somewhere it was noted that within a well-run pack, the hierarchy is fairly stable... that weres can usually tell who is higher or lower ranking, so there is a little bit of jockeying with a new member of the pack until they find a position, and then they mostly don't change.  
According to Mercy in either MC or BB, Warren isn't very good at giving the types of non-verbal cues that signal dominance to other wolves, and he holds the Third position because Adam says so, probably influencing Paul's decision to challenge him; Henry convinced him that with Adam injured, he might be able to win a confrontation... and Paul is apparently not too bright if he thought that, even if he managed to kill Adam, he would survive the retaliation of Darryl and Warren, when Warren beat the crap out of him once already.  
So, as much as I would love to see Ben beat Paul to a bloody pulp, it seems that Ben accepts his standing in the pack hierarchy and, as he is so low ranking, it would be supremely idiotic for him to challenge Paul.  Paul may have been unwilling to kill Mary Jo - a woman - but I'm not so sure the same extends to Ben.  
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 01:21:32 pm
That is a good point. However, as Charles said to Anna in Cry Wolf.  All wolves are aggressive more or less or they wouldn't be able to handle the change, right? And that is why the submissives are so valuable because they don't want to compete. That makes me wonder they can't all be happy with their standing all the time some have to be waiting for their chance to move up....that's kinda the point isn't it? who wants to be on the bottom of anything? Am I making sense? I"m typing at work and having to be very quick and sneaky! LOL 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on April 05, 2010, 01:30:57 pm
Yes but in order to move up it has to be a sanctioned fight; approved by the Alpha.  Ben might want to move up, but besides understanding where he stands in the pack order, he would have to pass it through Adam to get a fight with Paul, and I don't think Adam would let Ben risk himself that way... I think Ben has been growing on Adam, too, besides the Alpha's need to protect lower ranking wolves. 

And he would have to be ranked within three males of Paul's standing (Ben's the one who quotes this rule).  I don't remember how many wolves are in Adam's pack, but is somewhere in the 20 to 30 range at least.  Lets take 20 for demonstration purposes.  Three are women, lets take them out of the ranking.  That leaves 17.  There is one male, Peter the submissive, ranked below Ben.  That puts Ben at #16.  Paul was able to challenge Adam, so he's ranked 4th, MAYBE 5th if we want to stretch the rules.  That still leaves 10 ranks between... and I'm pretty sure there's more than 20 wolves in Adam's pack. 

So Ben wouldn't be allowed to challenge Paul. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on April 05, 2010, 01:33:09 pm
It's not all about fighting skill; some of it is about force of personality.  I think that, due to the issues Ben brings with him, that we glimpsed in Iron Kissed, he doesn't have the mental dominance he would need to be a high ranked wolf.

Good analysis of the rules, Kyria!
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 01:41:12 pm
I'll be honest.  I can't keep up with all the details...I just know what I feel.  And I want Ben ranked higher! LOLOLOL
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: skipaliforus on April 05, 2010, 01:44:22 pm
so far as i know the pack has 30 ppl in it, was 31 with mercy then Henry left so back to 30.

Rank to the best of my knowledge is Adam + Mercy, Darrel + Arielle, Warren, Paul, George, Mary Jo, Alec,lots of ? marks. Then at the end, Ben then, Peter + Honey.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 01:46:49 pm
But Ben has to be important somehow....we read about him alot...Patty has to have a bigger plan for him! PLEASE PATTY I'M BEGGING! lol

I'd be satisfied if he met a nice female wolf, I guess  O)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on April 05, 2010, 01:50:56 pm
aw, as much as I'd love it if he were higher up... SOMEBODY has to be ranked at the bottom.  and it makes for a more realistic cast, if not every one of the main characters is the top 5 of the pack.  

Besides, I think it would ruin Ben, if he had a higher rank.  He would lose his vulnerability and without that, I wouldn't like him much.  Remember how he was a jerk in the beginning before we found out that he was deeper than that?  Imagine that plus the "I'm a very dominant wolf and you WILL do as I say" attitude.  I shudder to think.  

Skipaliforus, thank you for clarifying pack ranks.  That looks correct to me. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on April 05, 2010, 01:53:00 pm
You do realize he's basically brought in as someone Adam wants to keep his eye on - I half wonder if Bran is trying Adam out as someone who can take over the job of shaking up/retraining 'problem' wolves so they can go into 'normal' packs, instead of having to do it himself - and that's why we keep seeing him.  Of the 30 wolves in the pack, we've seen only about 40 percent.  

Adam, Darryl & Arielle, Warren, Paul, George, Mary Jo, Alec, lots of ? marks. Then at the end, Ben then, Peter & Honey.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 01:53:25 pm
You're right K.  And the fact that he is ranked low does make him vunerable....and Adam is good to him so I guess that is good enough for me.  If Mr. Adam was a mean Alpha like Leo....I'd have a real problem!
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 01:54:51 pm
Patti,

But hasn't Ben proven himself several times.  Adam even explains this to Mercy. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on April 05, 2010, 02:26:24 pm
That doesn't (to me) mean he doesn't still need some retraining.  That foul mouth of his, and his hate of women.  He (barring dominance fights) could live centuries; he needs to get over hating more than half the human race.  He doesn't have to turn into a gentleman, but he should be able to deal with women without the chance of being slapped, literally or with lawsuits.  Adam, with his values, might be the best person to do that.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 04:02:43 pm
True! Adam is such a gentleman.  However, I guess I want to see Ben differently.  We know Ben was also abused when he was younger....so, once that was explained to us  I just assumed that his behavior was a way to "mask" all these things he's been carrying with him. I"m thinking maybe his anger of women is directed towards his mother??? Maybe he's mad about becoming a Were.  I totally understand the foul language talk....I don't like it either ( especially the *c* word he almost used) but just like in the real world, there are some people who don't always know how to say the right thing....but they do the right thing.  At this point, I would much rather keep company with Ben, who despite his foul language and attitude problems, is pretty straight forward.  I think Paul is way more snarky than Ben. It REALLY irked me he challenged Warren while he was hurt and then Adam! What a creep!
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on April 05, 2010, 04:09:54 pm
I agree on that, Wolverine!
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: skipaliforus on April 05, 2010, 05:30:34 pm
I agree that Ben needs to be more level headed when it comes to women. But with what happened to him it's not so easy, he will never fully heal. He will never see women the same as he did when he was little, or worse he has never seen the better side of them at all. just always seen the worst (deceitful, manipulative, exploitative)   He will never trust them, even the ones he likes, he will only see the bad things first or every thing they do will be tainted by (in his head) evil schemes or fallacious motives

It wouldn't be very realistic if he did find a mate. Charles stated that you don't have to love someone to mate. You don't even have to like them, but the one thing you must be able to do is trust them.

The one thing Ben can't do.

I don't see that changing any time soon. To work past those issues is more likely to take decades then it is to take a mere few years. I can definitely see him finding a bed buddy and maybe a short term lover, but even a somewhat serous girlfriend isn't very possible before he starts to accept what happened, and realize it was one woman who betrayed him, not the whole female species.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 05:32:18 pm
Well, I have another ranking question.  I didn't get any answers on where or what happened to the mates of wolves that lost their rank, if that should ever happen? I"m sure it does, somewhere. Or what the real definition of "unmated females" meant for Adam in his sense of responsibility.

My next question is:  I know the wolves are ranked by dominance but is that all? I mean,  Ben, Peter and Honey ranked lowest because of that, I thought I understood Honey to be quite strong.  I guess my question is this:  Are the wolves ranked soley on that OR does it matter how and when they enter the pack?  Is Ben ranked low because he came from London and is new to this pack or is it soley based on his dominance.  Is Samuel, Charles and Adam ranked high because Charles and Samuel are the sons of a Alpha? Did Adam make Alpha because of his own strength or was he the sone of an Alpha? or because he has natural dominance as well?  Am I making sense?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on April 05, 2010, 05:39:24 pm
You're asking what the whole dominance process is.
Adam is clearly NOT the son of an alpha, no inheritance if there are no children, remember?
Dominance is partly physical prowess, thus Paul thinking he could challenge.
It is also very largely about character.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 05:49:05 pm
Thanks Patti!  I can't keep all the details straight sometimes. It doesn't help that I read other Were stories and their authors relay things differently.  I agree and understand about the character part.  Who wouldn't trustBran, Charles, Adam or Samuel to be their leader? I guess I"m torn or confused about rank because in the Mercy novels we are told Warren in third because of his sexual prefence, and Darryl is second althought he's really not more dominant than Warren but because the other memebers would accept that first.  If pack rank is soely based on character, strength and dominance then Adam wouldn't need to declare who goes in what order, right?  So, if this is the case, why can't the Alpha move a lower ranking wolve up IF he sees fit and demote another? 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on April 05, 2010, 05:51:54 pm
Because the demoted wolf would have every right to challenge to regain his rank.  And it could well be to the death.
Also because it would mess with the pack dynamics, like the whole "Mercy has been declared mate by Adam but hasn't accepted the position" issue.

And remember, this is in Mercyverse; LKH, Kelley Armstrong, Whatsername with Kitty, their fictons all have different werewolf rules.

And it doesn't even ALWAYS work that way in Mercyverse; just under Bran as the Marrok.  Europe has different rules.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 06:03:33 pm
I think it would be a great story to have some of the European Wolves show up and stir the pot!  I know how wrong that sounds...but I would love to see some mayhem! LOL more than what we already get I guess! :)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: skipaliforus on April 05, 2010, 06:05:14 pm
traits that make Samuel and Charles dominant:

I believe that it's more of a nature and nurture kind of thing. just like a man who who is a mechanic will likely pass on that natural mechanical thought process to his children. Then further develop it by them observing him and following his methods. Raising your children to be leaders and dominant is not too different. Some of it is thanks to genes. The rest is do to the kind of mentality you instill in them when they are young, and the traits they adopt into them selves from observation, as they grow into adults.

With Adam i think it was largely the military that made him into the kind of man who becomes an Alpha. The Armed Forces tend to make people into leaders, and he was a Sgt. in Vietnam which means he was responsible for their lives, and leading men in war also tends to make you very protective of those who are under your command. From there it isn't hard to see him becoming an Alpha pretty easily.

P.S. Patti- Carrie Vaughn writes the Kitty series
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: wolverine on April 05, 2010, 06:08:31 pm
good points!
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Mike Briggs on April 05, 2010, 10:35:39 pm
The whole dominance thing seems to be terribly complicated to explain.  Patty and I have talked about this at length, and it just seems to get more complicated not less.It is more than physical prowess, though that's certainly part of it.  The wolves depend on the Alpha for leadership and safety in a world that's pretty hostile.  New wolves, without leadership, would be dangerous to everyone around them, and easy prey for darker things at the same time.  

The pack functions a little like a military unit getting new recruits.  To start with they scare the newbies half to death, and tell them when to brush their teeth, when to sit and when to sleep.  Those who can't adapt die.  Those who survive become part of the pack.  Think about the sort of characters you'd like to see in a military commander, and that's what a good alpha needs.  Sure, you'd like him to be tough, but you also want him to be smart, and fair, and charismatic.   The kind of person people follow willingly.

The dominance thing is as much about personality as fighting ability. Many dominance questions are solved without a fight, or with only a token fight.  For instance, lets pretend that one fine day the wolves all got over their homophobia.  Warren and Darryl might well agree to switch places, with Adam's blessing.  If a formal challenge were required (I can't remember the rules about that -- Patty set it up such that the top positions required a formal challenge, mostly to insure that the whole pack was aware of any change in rank), then it might be as simple as Warren entering the ring and Darryl formally yielding.  It doesn't have to be bloody.

Ben may be a good fighter (I don't think Patty has ranked fighting ability by itself -- she just makes stuff up!), and he's loyal.  But would the pack follow him into battle?  Could they trust him to put them first, and himself second?  Is he a LEADER?  That's what makes a good dominant wolf.  The pack bonds allow the pack members to strengthen those they support.  A perfect alpha has the unanimous support of the pack -- which makes him virtually impossible to defeat.  Successful challenges for top positions usually mean that the pack was itself divided on whom to support.  Usually, just violence isn't enough to get a wolf to the top of a healthy pack.  Remember, Adam was not only wounded, the pack wasn't healthy, which is the only reason Paul had any chance at all.

 You can rise in rank through sheer violence, but a pack ruled by an Alpha whose only virtue is his fighting prowess is in serious trouble . . . and probably due a visit from Bran and/or Charles,  like Leo.   Ben is probably due to rise in rank, but he has several personality flaws that effectively weaken him and make it harder for the pack to support him.   Ben is a work in progress -- but he doesn't belong in the top ranks yet.  

Does that make any more sense?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Addicted Gamer on April 06, 2010, 01:39:23 am
Yes, Mike it makes perfect sense.

I think that Ben, if you have his loyalty, would be perfect for back-up, at the moment (see Blood Bound)

As for Warren and Darryl:
Warren is just glad to have an Alpha who accepts him for who he his and will support him, and to finally be
part of a pack. He's not going to make trouble for the rank of 2nd, that would only unbalance the pack more.
Darryl is 2nd and very loyal, we need him there as he is dominant and alpha enough to keep the order for
Adam (when he's not around). Furthermore his mate is also able to keep things in check. I didn't like Auriele
first, but she has mellowed and now I like how she has turned out (she's nicer towards Mercy now LOL )
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Shipa on April 06, 2010, 04:30:16 am
In one of the first books (Blood Bound, I think), Ben mentions that if it weren't for the two submissive wolves in the pack, he would be at the bottom. Did he mean Peter and Honey? I always thought that Adam's pack had another submissive wolf, since Honey is not a submissive wolf.

Actual dominance ranking:
Adam + Mercy, Darryl + Auriele, Warren (+ Kyle), Honey, Paul, Henry, Mary Jo, Alec, ...... Ben, Peter.

At the end of Silver Borne, Honey seemed worried that she might get caught in dominance fights--what are the chances?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Addicted Gamer on April 06, 2010, 05:30:10 am
In one of the first books (Blood Bound, I think), Ben mentions that if it weren't for the two submissive wolves in the pack, he would be at the bottom. Did he mean Peter and Honey? I always thought that Adam's pack had another submissive wolf, since Honey is not a submissive wolf.

Actual dominance ranking:
Adam + Mercy, Darryl + Auriele, Warren (+ Kyle), Honey, Paul, Henry, Mary Jo, Alec, ...... Ben, Peter.

At the end of Silver Borne, Honey seemed worried that she might get caught in dominance fights--what are the chances?

That's what I also thought, as I have always placed Honey at the top, even though Peter is submissive.
But being submissive is not always weak, it's just that they never feel the need to fight for dominance.
Of course this would make them targets for ugly bullies =____=

And yeah, even though the pack has been healed for the most part, the stupid people (besides that upstart Henry) are still
at large.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on April 06, 2010, 07:17:50 am
There was a comment in the SB spoilers thread about the fact that the submissives count has changed, and that Ben might have been counting Mary Jo or Honey as a submissive (Mary Jo as an unmated female, Honey as a submissive's mate), but
1. I wouldn't see Ben counting one or the other, but not both, and that leaves us with three submissives.
2. In Silver Borne Ben refers to Mary Jo as more dominant than him, so even in Ben's mind, rank and dominance are separate in the case of females. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Shipa on April 07, 2010, 08:08:54 pm
It seems from Mary Jo and Alec's conversation during the alpha challenge that wolves instinctively have a sense of who is dominant regardless of their gender. The same reason I think Ben has always been aware that all three women in the Pack are more dominant than him even though by the official rules Mary Jo is an unmated female and thus at the bottom of the Pack hierarchy and Honey, being Peter's mate is also at the bottom.

I'm not saying that being a dominant/submissive is better or worse. My theory is that there has to be another submissive wolf (like Peter) in Adam's Pack that we haven't met yet.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Addicted Gamer on April 07, 2010, 10:52:50 pm
It seems from Mary Jo and Alec's conversation during the alpha challenge that wolves instinctively have a sense of who is dominant regardless of their gender. The same reason I think Ben has always been aware that all three women in the Pack are more dominant than him even though by the official rules Mary Jo is an unmated female and thus at the bottom of the Pack hierarchy and Honey, being Peter's mate is also at the bottom.

I'm not saying that being a dominant/submissive is better or worse. My theory is that there has to be another submissive wolf (like Peter) in Adam's Pack that we haven't met yet.

I hope so too >__<
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on April 30, 2010, 04:39:11 pm
So I had this idea when thinking about and discussing Sam (that being Samuel's wolf)  and how much better behaved he is than say, Bran's wolf. 
We talk a lot about dominance when it comes to wolves, but obviously, there are a lot more dimensions than that.  In this case, I had the idea to plot dominance as a "y-axis" as it seems natural to visualize dominance on a vertical scale.  On the "x-axis" we then have a measure of how crazy the wolf is when in control. 

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/4566974012_d77645a9b7.jpg)

Most wolves, Mercy says, are more-or-less dominant.  So most wolves who survive the Change are in the upper right hand quadrant, with alphas and Charles and Sam at the top and Bran as the upper right hand corner (At least for American wolves).

Submissive wolves exist in the lower right hand corner (Although perhaps they actually belong in the lower left, now that I think about it.  I would have to see some with the wolf in control to know).

Omegas take up the upper left.  Note: I don't know exactly where to put Rick and Anna.  I don't think there are enough omegas out there to really decipher the spectrum of "omega-ness," and being omega makes it hard also to assess dominance.  But to the left of the line is the "zen zone," either way, and if they were below the x-axis in submissive territory I don't think they would be inclined to refuse orders from the other wolves.

My theory is that the anyone whose wolf would be in the fourth quadrant, would not survive the Change.

If we look at this on an algebraic scale, the +,+ wolves have a need to protect any wolf who falls into a quadrant that has at least one negative.

If I could, I would plot another dimension, related to the human's control... all wolves with a negative "z-axis" value have to be killed for the safety of others, but in the positives you seemingly have a pretty good range.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: ArtAngel on April 30, 2010, 04:53:35 pm
Interesting! You put a lot of thought into it Kyria!
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: jackie on April 30, 2010, 04:59:37 pm
I think you've got the X axis not quite right.  I think what you are trying to measure is not Beserker - Omega, but Monsterness and Calm of the wolf.  Charles' Brother wolf is actually more towards middle of the x axis, and Sam is even further into the calm as well.  You are right about needing a z axis for human control of the wolf.   I think figuring out how Dr Wallace fits in would actually tell you how well this is working, and what needs to change to get the model to work well.  I wonder if Patty has used something like this to think about werewolf charactaristics?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on April 30, 2010, 05:06:58 pm
Thanks
 LOL I briefly considered setting up a diorama type graph for the 3D "control" dimension I wanted to add
but I am NOT that ambitious.  
I like your labels, jackie.  I couldn't think of the words I wanted, so I used Berserker-Omega, knowing it wasn't quite what I wanted. 
Remember that I am suggesting that my x-axis 0 point is the break between omegas and regular dominant wolves... can't move Sam too much left, because he's definitely not Omega. 
See I think Brother Wolf isn't any more calm than average.  Remember how Charles starts to go crazy when Anna leaves and he's injured?  Charles and Brother Wolf have a special relationship in the Control category, but left completely to his own devices I think Brother Wolf would go crazy.  Hmmm... maybe move him to just left of Warren? 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: YuleRule on May 22, 2010, 05:04:40 pm
See, the problem with Charles is that his Brother wolf is just too different. He can actually talk with his wolf, and that Charles going crazy when Anna leaves and he's injured is due to his unusual reaction to silver, not his wolf. I wish you could also put a 4th dimension, intelligence of wolf. (Well, it seems to be related to time. Bran's wolf is mentioned as cunning, (before going into berserker mode) Sam's is definitely intelligent (to some extent) and Charles's wolf is also smart. And they are all old wolves. Maybe "smart wolf" gene?)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on May 22, 2010, 05:06:50 pm
What do you suppose Asil's wolf's intelligence is like?  He's the next oldest wolf we know of, but we haven't seen enough of him in either form to have any idea what his wolf is like.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Pheodora on May 30, 2010, 07:20:40 am
Asil seems *scary* brilliant, and still not stable enough, nor for long enough, for me to feel comfortable or trusting of him. He has had such a long and tragic, even horrendous past, poor guy. But some wounds never heal, they just bleed less. I guess I see him in the far upper right corner...very very dominant, but seriously broken/wounded, and not capable of consistently performing at what should be his natural level, if that makes sense. 

Pheo
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on June 27, 2010, 07:17:54 am
Hi all first time poster and just finished the books.
and i was struck with some thoughts about the wolves in the military.
rank and dominance and how they would conflict

a bit of history, I spent 12 years in in the Army '92-'04, and most of them as a Military Police.
in the MP corps we have to deal with rank and authority all the time, where some stuffy officer tries to pull his rank on you the patrolman, it is one of the first things a new Private has to learn and get over. but at the end of the exchange they were both human.


wolves and the military,

Branches:
Navy/Marines: no wolves in these branches, to much water and time on ships.
Army: perfered
Air Force: possible but what self respecting wolf would be in the AF... thats just silly

The majority of wolves i see as in the military are lone wolves. Now i don't see the military as being a great carrier path for a wolf, due to many factor. The first being training time and deployed time: there have been many time when i was in the field where looking at the full moon on guard duty. How would a moon called wolf cope, i have not seen them as being able to resist the call. and  if they change in the field well that could be bad, even if they didn't eat some on, the SGT of the Guard walks around and doesn't find one of his people they are gonna have a bad day once they are found, and if they are still not out of the closet well, the military takes it personal when one there guys is not guarding his brothers while they are sleeping. Also with the wolf natural need to dominate lesser, this can also lead to altercations, but i will talk about that in  min.

The military how would they act, well that is a big thoughts i believe the they would form a wolf company, take all the outed wolves and stick them in once central area, to either 1) be a show piece or 2) buried, in some back water post.

the Company: now here is where the wolf and the military really collide, if the army sets all the outed wolves in one company and tells them to play nice and sit and stay.
what would happen if the command is of lesser dominance than a subordinate, wooo that would chap some wolfs tail.
how would a bunch of lone wolves react to forced pack, and a weak alpha, but not have to ability to challenge for pack dominance, due to rank structure.

What to do with them, well that is grand question, will they pull them out as a show piece
" Look here is our tame wolf pack, see them sit  see them stay, good dog, there is nothing to be afraid of here."
that will not be a good thing for them
ok thats all for now,

discuss


EDIT: edited spelling in title, charmed, books mod


I think that dominance/rank with military wolves and their dissatisfaction would likely be as different from 'American' wolves as american wolves are different from 'European' wolves.

I think I'm making a hash of things.  Look at the females.  They are forced to accept lower dominance wolves as having higher rank than themselves their entire un-mated life and possibly into their mated life when they mate with low dominance males.  Sure there is discontent and shenanigans but on the whole they are functional.

What you would really need, if you had a low dominance commanding officer, is some high dominance sub-officers or seargents.  Put the troublesome bad eggs under a high dominance platoon leader.  So long as teh commanding officer had the respect of his subordinates (willing to face combat, not a pencil pushing beuracrat), and all or most of the wolves come from a military background before the turn, things could work out.  Ideally you'd have a high dominance commander.  High enough at least that wolves like Warren with Daryl as #2 or Aisl with Bran/Charles, could chose to be under him as an alpha.

'Maybe' a lower dominance alpha commander would be a disaster.  But for sure and certain if you had a high dominance alpha, you could organize everyone under according to military ranks and disregard alot of the the 'whose higher stuff' on a functional day to day basis.

Certainly like every other pack there'd be problems.  I'd just say don't throw mixed service were's into one big pack.  There human prejudices would ensure that were-wolf blood was soon spilled.  And their increadible healing powers would only make the confrontations more certain.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on June 27, 2010, 07:26:51 am
Well, so he can move up in rank...isn't that how it works? you kill or beat a dominant wolf and you get their position. And why not Ben? We already know Adam, Darryl and Warren could do it no real drama there! :) Of course, Adam being weak and previously injured made that action packed BUT! if he had been 100%...there would have been no big fight, right?  I thought the fight between Paul and Mary Jo was GREAT!  And I have to say I appreciated the fact that he didn't want to hurt her. I love it when Patti goes into detail about how the pack works together, the heirachy and all that....I find it very interesting.

I have an oddball question:  What happens to the mate of a defeated wolf? where does she go?
and if the unmated females belong to Adam...what EXACTLY does that mean? Does he play the role of dad or what???


Re: Mate of a defeated were-wolf.  Unless the were-wolf that was defeated is dead... I'd say the mate goes wherever the defeated were-wolf goes.  So if the defeated mate goes down in status so does teh female mate.  If the male mate is kicked out of the pack... that would be a kicker.  I expect she could break the mate bond and stay or keep the mate bond and leave with the exiled mate....

Now if the male mate was killed.  I'd expect that in a functional pack the female would probably leave for another pack.  In a disfunctional pack maybe Bran would have to step in and take a look at things.




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: ironkitten on June 30, 2010, 05:03:13 pm
Ok, this has some spoilers in it but this would have a lot of black bars in it and it would look wierd. So just eaier to warn ya.I think the miltary is an interesting twist for the were's Maybe a special forces unit that moved where needed.


Onto the ranks and what not. My friend I was reading to we were talking - technically Paul was not in  a postion to challenge Adam, but Adam accepted - why? Because of the state of his pack from the "hole" that Mercy had left, her not being his mate when he declared here made a mess of the pack and Adam needed to start reapplying his authority and show that he is still in charge. Also the part on Warren it is already known that the pack would not accept Warren as second, however, we know that Warren is more dominate than Daryl. Paul is within 3 ranks of the third's postion, but females don't get counted in the dominance fights, thus since they allowed Mary Jo to fight that scared Honey, because she would rank higher if she were male and if they start looking at where everyone (females included) then she would be in danger of dominance fights and could effectively out rank her husband. I don't see that happening though since I think the fight with Adam and Paul was a bit of a harsh thing and there were a lot of extenuating(sorry spelling there)  circumstances, I think again that Adam took Pauls challenge as a show for his pack that he was still in charge, accepted Mary Jo to challenge - since Adam and Mercy didn't decide if Mary Jo fought or not, but seeing Adam hurt and trying to make reparations and it did even things up for Adam with Paul without showing weakness that , Mar Jo was allowed to fight.
I also don't see Ben moving in rank anytime soon thanks to the after math of Mercy's rape and the whole - he has issues to deal with otherwise I could see Ben being higher up in the rank - not at the top mind you but maybe in the middle. But if you were trying to show what the weakest pack member is capable of vs the strongest I think that Ben  vs Adam is a good way to demonstrate it otherwise you or me as the reader wouldn't be able to gage the power or dominance as well. Look at Honey and her mate as well. In Alpha and Omega they explain the importance of those submissives in the pack. We gad Paul at 6 unless you counted females.


ETA: I added the spoiler bars, just to be safe. charmed, books mod
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: spencerharper on July 09, 2010, 01:20:20 pm
When you're looking at the pack page here it shows the order of the pack is
Bran, Leah
Charles, Anna
Asil
Sage
Is it in a random order or is Asil actually 3rd in the pack? And if he is, is Sage 4th (probably not)?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: CarolKat on July 09, 2010, 02:09:28 pm
When you're looking at the pack page here it shows the order of the pack is
Bran, Leah
Charles, Anna
Asil
Sage
Is it in a random order or is Asil actually 3rd in the pack? And if he is, is Sage 4th (probably not)?

Bran's Pack top 4 are
Bran, Leah
Charles, Anna
Samuel, (Ariana?)
Adam, Mercy
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Elle on July 09, 2010, 03:39:11 pm
Other than the Bran/Leah, Charles/Anna pairings the others are random, only because we haven't met all the members of Bran's pack. Asil, I think should be the Marrok's pack 3rd because he's so powerful but that's not anything official.

CK, I'm not sure why you have Sam and Adam/Mercy there?

I'm not sure where Sage would fit in the scheme of things, she is more dominate than Leah. That has to be frustrating for her with the extra power boost Leah gets from being Bran's mate.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: CarolKat on July 11, 2010, 07:38:07 am
Elle, I was thinking of Moon Called when Mercy went down the Top 5 of the Pack that her stepfather made her memorize. Or was that only for the Alphas?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on July 11, 2010, 07:33:33 pm
It was top five wolves in North America - not just alphas, but overall, because if I remember right, Sam and Charles were both on the list and neither is Alpha; but Adam was right behind them, and he's not in Bran's Pack, although he is one of Bran's wolves - one of his Alphas.  Does that make sense? 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on July 12, 2010, 09:32:25 am
It was top five wolves in North America - not just alphas, but overall, because if I remember right, Sam and Charles were both on the list and neither is Alpha; but Adam was right behind them, and he's not in Bran's Pack, although he is one of Bran's wolves - one of his Alphas.  Does that make sense?


When I think of the power structure of the werewolves in north america I use a feudal template to keep track.

In a feudal kingdom you have the King and his heirs ruling the premier and most powerful area, call them Duchies.  The King controls the most powerful duchy.  So the heir to the most powerful duchy should inherit control of that duchy as well as control of the kingdom as a whole.  But remember the most powerful duchy is still a duchy among duchies.  If one of the dukes over throws the current order of things then his duchy becomes the most powerful and he's now king.

Which is my way of saying, the ranking order for the most powerful were's in North Americas Were Kingdom are: King Bran followed Princes Charles and Samuel, followed by Duke Adam and Duke etc, etc, etc.

Not a perfect fit, but if you know about how feudal kingdom's work it gives you a decent template to keep track of things.

Also with Bran.  I tend to think of his as basically having two packs.  The first is his Aspen Creek Pack with all the normal werewolves, Second is his North American Alpha Pack.  He can in theory draw upon the power of both his regular pack and every alpha in north america.  But I think that as has been shown with the mate bond versus the pack bond, Pack Magic has different types of magic bonds available between were-wolves, so I'm unsure if the bond the Marrok has with his pack are different from the the bond he has with his Alpha's.




The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on July 12, 2010, 07:07:11 pm
Not a bad analogy; as in the Miles Vorkosigan books; Emperor Gregor is also Count Vorbarra, with a Count's vote as well as the Imperial vote.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: ironkitten on July 15, 2010, 05:09:05 pm
I like that analogy and it does seem to fit. I know Samuel isn't technically an Alpha and is officially lone wolf I don't think Bran thinks of it that way. I like that feudal thing - that makes sense too.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: crazedcrusader on July 16, 2010, 05:51:10 pm
Hi, all. Kind of new to the boards, and I've been thinking a lot about this question lately - I posted it in 'Ask Patty' but I'd like to get ya'll's thoughts on the subject, if I can:

Quote
Mated females take their rank in the pack hierarchy from their mates - unless it's a female Omega like Anna, who's outside of the pack hierarchy. Charles stays as Bran's Second, she lives happily outside of the whole thing ruffling fur and arranging them to her satisfaction, and all is well.

But what about male Omegas like the one from Hunting Ground? What happens if he takes a mate? Does she live happily outside of the hierarchy with him, or is she still stuck down on the bottom as if she weren't mated?

Since this thread addresses dominance questions I thought it would be the right place to ask. Apologies if I'm wrong!

Also - since things are done differently in Europe, do you think that a wolf like Ben, being forced to move from England to America, would have trouble adjusting to a whole new set of rules, and thus have trouble settling in with the pack? It seems like it would be difficult - maybe less so for a young wolf like Ben than it would be for an older wolf, since we know they have trouble dealing with changes, but I would think even someone Ben's age would find it challenging.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Janilee on July 16, 2010, 07:44:27 pm
Hmmmm... That may have been part of why they required Ben to memorize the rules before being allowed to join the pack. As he says in the discussion of Mary Jo's dominance claims in Silver Bourne.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on July 17, 2010, 12:33:55 am
Hi, all. Kind of new to the boards, and I've been thinking a lot about this question lately - I posted it in 'Ask Patty' but I'd like to get ya'll's thoughts on the subject, if I can:

Quote
Mated females take their rank in the pack hierarchy from their mates - unless it's a female Omega like Anna, who's outside of the pack hierarchy. Charles stays as Bran's Second, she lives happily outside of the whole thing ruffling fur and arranging them to her satisfaction, and all is well.

But what about male Omegas like the one from Hunting Ground? What happens if he takes a mate? Does she live happily outside of the hierarchy with him, or is she still stuck down on the bottom as if she weren't mated?

Since this thread addresses dominance questions I thought it would be the right place to ask. Apologies if I'm wrong!

Also - since things are done differently in Europe, do you think that a wolf like Ben, being forced to move from England to America, would have trouble adjusting to a whole new set of rules, and thus have trouble settling in with the pack? It seems like it would be difficult - maybe less so for a young wolf like Ben than it would be for an older wolf, since we know they have trouble dealing with changes, but I would think even someone Ben's age would find it challenging.


I think that in north america a female mate of an omega would likely have a rough go of it.  To wit, she'd be outside pack dominance stuff... which most females already are in a legal sense.  But as has been shown with Anna she can draw upon Charles's dominance at times.  So I'd say the female mate would have to avoid the temptation to miss use her mate's powers.  She'd have to use the omega powers only for good.  Or else seriously torque off her mate.  And as has been shown, omega's can reduce the... urge for dominance among wolves but its range specific, and as such if you use it on one wolf before the other further out in teh room chaos could ensue.

As far as europe.  I think its clear that the europeans have a hazy idea of just what an omega is.  Likely none of their members have actually had any extended contact with another omega, and anna is the first example of an omega whose pack has some idea about what an omega really is.

But as far as the euro guy taking a mate....  well I'd say she'd be outside pack heirarchy just like him.  Now the euro's had him kind of as a super special submissive, to wit at the bottom of the pack ranking.  But I think as was shown in the last alpha and omega book he has plans to change this view of his omega-ness.  So likely she'd be in a sort of nebulous authority ranking somewhere around beta.  Uber-zen Alpha or not an Omega simply doesn't want to compete in ranking and dominance fights and in my mind would only engage in somthing like that for the good of the pack.  Since Omega's want to make the other wolves happy and since most dominant wolves are happiest when they are in charge....  The Omega is going to let the Alpha and Beta and so on and so forth be in charge unless they are clearly taking the pack down a dead wrong direction.  In which case I think the omega could zonk anyone but a dominant alpha into line.


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: ironkitten on July 17, 2010, 07:26:43 pm
oh that is a good twist too - I didn't think of an omega male mate. That would be an interesting theory. A good thought process there. That would be a little weird to get used to too, I would think as the female trying to get used to those feelings and then they wouldn't have that power naturally. Although it could go that the power just soothes the female and doesn't spread to the others around her when the omega is not there either though. Anyway that is a very interesting thought.......hmmmmm
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: CarolKat on July 18, 2010, 07:57:27 am
In which case I think the omega could zonk anyone but a dominant alpha into line.
The Deposed King

 I think an Omega can "Zonk" even the most dominant alpha, Remember Anna did calm the beserker(Bran).  An Omega brings peace to the wolf. The only time this could be an issue is when the dominant really needs to be in control of a situation Like when Anna was calming the Alphas in the restaurant and Charles sent her out. This is part of what needs to be controlled so that dominance can handle what it needs to without interference from the Omega.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on July 18, 2010, 09:10:04 am
In which case I think the omega could zonk anyone but a dominant alpha into line.
The Deposed King

 I think an Omega can "Zonk" even the most dominant alpha, Remember Anna did calm the beserker(Bran).  An Omega brings peace to the wolf. The only time this could be an issue is when the dominant really needs to be in control of a situation Like when Anna was calming the Alphas in the restaurant and Charles sent her out. This is part of what needs to be controlled so that dominance can handle what it needs to without interference from the Omega.


I'm not disputing that an Omega can forcibly bring peace to the wolf.  I guess my point is that dominant's don't become dominant because the wolf is strong and the human side is a push over.  Just because you zonk some dominant alpha's wolf side, doesn't mean that the human side isn't in total agreement with its wolf on the current subject at hand.  It'd be like taking away all the emotional pleasure of a bad action, but leaving the intellect still determined to carry out a now much more distasteful task. 

I think that with less dominant wolves being 'zonked' would take all or most of the wind out of their sails and the Omega could step right in and push them back onto the path of reasonable behaviors.  But I think that with many Beta's and most Alpha wolves, zonking the wolf side would still leave the human side with the potential determination to keep on trucking.  The force of the human side personality might demand action even if the wolf side has been put on a sort of happy catnip hour.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Varg on July 18, 2010, 10:00:35 am
>znip<...The force of the human side personality might demand action even if the wolf side has been put on a sort of happy catnip hour.



The Deposed King
LOL I like your imagery!

Also I agree.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on July 18, 2010, 06:28:40 pm
So... Leah isn't naturally dominant, but pulled on - you know; this is actually Omega talk more than anything else.  I think I'll take it over there.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: ironkitten on July 26, 2010, 09:59:34 am
well it's omega at the moment but in relation to dominance and this thread has brought up some neat points to consider.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Loleczka on August 09, 2010, 01:34:32 am
At the outset, I'm sorry for my English. Maybe you don't understand, but I have to ask this question.

Suppose that Adam children born to Mercy. Remember that this is only an assumption.
Such a child that grew to a certain time and then cease to grow old, right? At least so it was with Charles. Therefore, I am curious if the ruling hierarchy in the herd. Does the child would have the same hierarchy as its parents? Or have a small child would be compelled to fight for dominance?
 I'm just curious.

Loleczka.

P.S. I'm very sorry for my English.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on August 09, 2010, 05:52:54 am
I doubt the child would inherit high rank.  If he or she has the right personality, he or she might be alpha, but if they don't have the innate drive to lead, no.  Neither (most) human societies nor wolf ones assume genetic leadership as an absolute; after all not every child of a king or queen rules, and ALL the offspring of the alpha pair of wolves are in their pack, and not all of them become alphas.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on August 09, 2010, 07:39:27 am
Real wolf pups are very submissive, and human children are expected to follow directions from the adults in their life.  I would guess that at least until puberty, children born as werewolves would have no real dominance in the Pack, but of course... if anybody does anything unpleasant to them, they have the parents to contend with.

Werewolf teenagers would then be a million times worse than human teenagers, as they transition not only from childhood to adulthood (and struggle for independence from their parents), but also from 'puppy' to having a rank in the Pack. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: ironkitten on August 10, 2010, 03:44:01 pm
oh that could get nasty really quick - LOL makes me think of Warren perhaps as a teenage werewolf, and some idiot says something stupid and BANG! fist to face. - LMAO......sorry random thought.


I would think like Kyria that when they hit puberty or the end of it they would strike off on their own or stay put and fight for rank. I mean Charles is the offspring of Bran and he stayed put so go fig.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on August 10, 2010, 04:35:06 pm
I mean Charles is the offspring of Bran and he stayed put so go fig.

Charles is also one of the three most dominant wolves at least in the USA, and I didn't get the impression that any of the other alphas around the world rivaled him either...

But Charles is unique, because of his position as the Marrok's Executioner.  I don't know if, had things progressed differently, he might have become a powerful Alpha, if he might have gone lone wolf, or if he would have stayed with his father's pack anyway... but I don't see Charles as the Alpha type.  He separates himself from others too much.  That may be largely due to the 'don't make friends with someone you might one day have to kill' theory... but it may also be partly just his personality. 

Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: charmed on August 10, 2010, 04:49:43 pm
He certainly has the protective instincts of an Alpha. He doesn't seem to have a desire to be Alpha of a Pack, even though he doesn't like being the Marrok's enforcer. He strikes me as too dominant to be a lone wolf.

I do think that even if he weren't Bran's enforcer, I think he would have become Bran's second. He is strong and as Angus put it, (I may have it muddled slightly) "a cold, rat bastard fighter". He would not settle for being low in the pack.

Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on August 16, 2010, 03:43:00 pm
But you know Sam went lone wolf and he's one rank below Charles. :P
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: CarolKat on August 16, 2010, 04:27:24 pm
Sam is dominant but he's a doctor and while he does what needs doing it doesn't rest well with him at all, and while technically he is a lone wolf he has Mercy, she is his pack. We'll see what happens with that one.  9)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on August 16, 2010, 08:03:57 pm
But you know Sam went lone wolf and he's one rank below Charles. :P

He was and could again be in the future 3rd in the Marrok's pack.  But as of right now has removed himself from that pack and started going crazy/lone wolf.  but technically as of right now while he still is as dominant as ever he's got no ranking.  That said i'm sure his rank would be instantly returned should he do anything as simple as show back up at the aspen creek pack and Bran nod's hello to his son.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on August 16, 2010, 08:12:35 pm
Sam is dominant but he's a doctor and while he does what needs doing it doesn't rest well with him at all, and while technically he is a lone wolf he has Mercy, she is his pack. We'll see what happens with that one.  9)

Right well... He's not in an officially approved were-wolf pack or pack relationship.  And unofficially he's got something wrong inside and part of its manifested in a twisted form of a pack relationship to Mercy.  She's the alpha female of Adam's pack, and Samuel still considers her a pack member.  Yet he doesn't consider himself a part of Adam's pack which by the way is also as of now Mercy's pack.  Its unclear that he considers himself the superior pack member in his little pack of two, and still treats Mercy as if she's mostly out of the dominance game.  So either he's given her superior pack status in his mind or else he's still thinking of her on some level as he would a mate, where dominance stuff normally doesn't come into play as much.  Plus he clearly doesn't consider himself the Marrok, the marrok has two packs but Samuel doesn't so that doesn't apply.

IMO Samuel just needs a good woman to give his life some purpose.  The addition of a few kids and even if the woman went 6 feet under and he'd still have a purpose in life.  Hopefully the fae broad pans out for him.

A second thought.  Samuel could actually believe down to his core, what the official pack position is regarding females, basically that they are outside of pack dominance.  Maybe the reason he's not done more dominance stuff with Mercy is partly a near instinctual uber chauvanism?  Especially if he knows he's sick he might unconsciously say, here's your pedestal there you sit.  And ignores reality to the contrary while refusing to harm the one he's pedestalized.  Just a thought.





The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: charmed on August 16, 2010, 08:41:21 pm
Umm, females are not outside of pack ranking. Matied females have their mate's ranking and unmated females are at teh bottom, right along with the submissives.

As for Sam just needing a good wife and kids: Well, that's the problem, he had them and they died. Both Patty and Mercy have repeatedly said that his depression and obsession with Mercy as a mate have to do with those facts so clearly it's not as simple as Sam finding a little woman and having a passel of kids.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on August 18, 2010, 07:57:52 am
Umm, females are not outside of pack ranking. Matied females have their mate's ranking and unmated females are at teh bottom, right along with the submissives.

As for Sam just needing a good wife and kids: Well, that's the problem, he had them and they died. Both Patty and Mercy have repeatedly said that his depression and obsession with Mercy as a mate have to do with those facts so clearly it's not as simple as Sam finding a little woman and having a passel of kids.



I must beg to differ with you.  As it regards 'Dominance' pack females are officially outside of pack dominance issues.  You are entirely correct about pack 'Ranking', they are ranked with their mates or stuck firmly at the bottom of the heirarchy.  But dominance and ranking have been repeatedly shown to be two separate albeit related issues.

As far as finding a little woman and getting kids being a simple solution.  I agree its not.  However I contend that without at the very least a little woman entering his life Samuel is as good as dead in the mid-term.  Sure having a little woman and kidlets around would increase the risks to the stablility of a healthy Samuel should anything happen to them as did with his previous mates.  Even if its as simple as them dying of old age and leaving him alone and lonely.  But do we honestly believe this unhealthy samuel of today is likely to find a reason to stabilize himself and go on living if something in his life doesn't significantly change?  Mercy is clearly not enough keep him stable all by her lonesome.

So I contend that with increased exposure could come increased stability for Samuel.  I don't currently see an alternative way of stabilizing him from his suicidal self, and given his chauvenistic personality, the return of a former fae woman he's had feelings for (thus bypassing his refusal to form 'new' relationships that might hurt him or others around him) and I might add a women he cares about who is in need of some help and protection (dominant wolf instincts unavoidably kicking in anyone) combined with the fact that this one isn't able to just up and die on him from old age...  I think a little woman in his life might be just what the doctor ordered.



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Ellyll on August 18, 2010, 10:09:48 am
TDK - "little woman" - really?   9)

I must beg to differ with you.  As it regards 'Dominance' pack females are officially outside of pack dominance issues. 

Not anymore.  Events in Silver Borne have changed that, don't you think?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Elle on August 18, 2010, 08:12:28 pm

But do we honestly believe this unhealthy samuel of today is likely to find a reason to stabilize himself and go on living if something in his life doesn't significantly change? 


I think we've all agreed for quite a while that Samuel has needed a change in his life in order to get healthy.

Quote
I don't currently see an alternative way of stabilizing him from his suicidal self, and given his chauvenistic personality

I don't see Samuel as being any more or less chauvenistic than any of the male wolves that we've encountered in the series. I've never thought it was as simple as finding a woman for Samuel that would be the magic wand to make him whole again. Like Mercy said, he needed to find something to live for just as Asil needed to find something to live for. 

I think any further Samuel discussion we can move over to his thread.

Ellyll, I agree that with the events of Silver Borne we've seen a significant shift in what it means for the female pack members in terms of dominance.

Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on August 18, 2010, 10:56:07 pm
TDK - "little woman" - really?   9)

I must beg to differ with you.  As it regards 'Dominance' pack females are officially outside of pack dominance issues. 

Not anymore.  Events in Silver Borne have changed that, don't you think?

Charmed started using the little woman analogy first, I was just happily speaking to her in her own chosen terminology  8)

But isn't Silver Bourne quite simply the exception that proves the rule was rock solid and broad sweeping across the entirety of north america up until that very moment?  A rule that stood the test of several centuries?

Now I'd agree that that things have changed ever so slightly and thus opened the door for a total revolution.  But first the door's only been opened a crack so far and for certain the door hasn't been thrown wide open.  Meaning in short that in every pack but (now) Adam's dominance and ranking are still entirely separate issues as it regards females.  Now in reality nothing has changed for females regarding their pack ranking since Honey lost her fight.  But in the realm of what is possible, unless adam or bran decide this was an unfortunate and never to be repeated mistake, this has opened the door for women to get involved in dominance fights. 

Which brings me back to the patriarchs who enforced this women are outside of dominance fights.  Bran, Charles and.... Samuel?  Can a person do such a thing for several centuries and not believe that some significant portions of what they are doing is correct?



The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Elle on August 19, 2010, 02:48:59 am

Charmed started using the little woman analogy first, I was just happily speaking to her in her own chosen terminology  8)


Looking back at Charmed's comment, it came across as a sarcastic, one off usage of the term. TDK, the repetitive usage of it in your upthread post, which I think you were trying for as arch came across as condescending, as does using terms like "fae broad". Let's move on from this please. Keep it respectful and when we know a character's name, let's use it.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: The Deposed King on August 19, 2010, 03:46:41 am

Charmed started using the little woman analogy first, I was just happily speaking to her in her own chosen terminology  8)


Looking back at Charmed's comment, it came across as a sarcastic, one off usage of the term. TDK, the repetitive usage of it in your upthread post, which I think you were trying for as arch came across as condescending, as does using terms like "fae broad". Let's move on from this please. Keep it respectful and when we know a character's name, let's use it.


I fear that I cannot move on from this.  I agree that fae 'broad' can perhaps be viewed by reasonable people as an unnecessarily negative word choice.  And for that comment I am willing to take direction.  Although I could not at the time nor can I at this moment recall the name of Samuel's rediscovered lady love, nor are my books readily available to search for her name.

I however feel that when someone else uses a word choice which puts an unnecessarily negative slant on what I myself have just said and when I then, advancing my argument by ocsillation, use their own word choice to continue the thrust of my argument, that this occurrence should be entirely unremarkable and specifically unremarked upon.  Excepting perhaps in a back and forth manner which continues to grind away at the point under disputation.

However, this is the second time in which I have been told to straighten up.  The first was in the female pack thread and I can accept that I may have been the one in the wrong there, the once.  But upon this second time I cannot in good conscience acceed to your request.

The Deposed King can be called to task for the word choices or arguments which he himself introduces into a thread, but he must never be the sole individual censured when he himself did not introduce a term.  Not and remain The Deposed King.

However as you are an administrator and senior pack member and I merely a mechanic.  I shall delete my account post haste and make my speedy departure.



I would like to take this moment before I go to thank everyone who has worked so hard to make this site so very enjoyable.  This is a wonderful community of people who love the works of Patricia Briggs as much as I and I shall miss all of you.  This has been one of my two favorite sites to visit and just about every day I've found myself checking through here for the gems of conversation which have brightened my day ever so much.  I've literally spent hours upon hours here and enjoyed almost every minute of it.  Thank you all for the wonderful conversations and discerning looks into the characters we are so fortunate to have available for our reading pleasure.  I thank you once again and wish you all nothing but the best.  Rest assured if I find other readers who love these books as much as I do I shall be sure to point them in this direction.




Until the end,


The Deposed King
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Elle on August 19, 2010, 03:52:38 am
An interesting response to the issue, TDK. Sorry you feel insulted. Take care.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: kody2by4 on September 24, 2010, 05:04:17 pm
Elle, I was thinking of Moon Called when Mercy went down the Top 5 of the Pack that her stepfather made her memorize. Or was that only for the Alphas?


Alphas and im not too sure that sam is less dominant than charles since dominance is one's capability too lead and if i had too choose between charles and sam i would follow sam into battle before charles. sorry but sam has never lost a fight yet so he has my confidence
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on September 24, 2010, 09:04:10 pm
i would follow sam into battle before charles.

Into battle, I'm not sure I would care which one I was following.  Both of them are super-dominant and lethal, though they have completely different styles of leadership.  In everyday life, I'd rather have Sam in charge than Charles, simply because Sam is more of a 'people person' if you will.  Charles isn't inclined to express himself to the general public.

and I think the Top 5 Mercy went through were the top 5 wolves in North America; not just Alphas and not just a single pack.  Bran at the top, and his sons, who are not alphas but are in his Marrok Pack; then Adam, and then another Alpha.  It's probably safest for everyone if the top-ranked wolves be either in Bran's pack (and it doesn't hurt that they're related), or alphas of their own packs. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on September 25, 2010, 06:51:36 am
It was the top 5 in North America
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: charmed on September 25, 2010, 01:05:28 pm
It was the top 5 in North America

the top 5 what? alphas? dominants? sexiest?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kkat07 on September 25, 2010, 03:32:55 pm
Top five dominants, although sexiest would apply as well.  :-whistle At least for the top four.  We haven't met Everett yet, so no idea if he's as yummy as the others.  I cannot believe I just said that.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on September 25, 2010, 08:21:11 pm
Top five dominants, although sexiest would apply as well.  :-whistle At least for the top four.  We haven't met Everett yet, so no idea if he's as yummy as the others.  I cannot believe I just said that.

Yeah but I'm not sure they're properly ranked for sexiness.  I mean, Bran rocks and is the top dog, but compared to Sam, Adam, and Charles on the sexy scale... I gotta go with Sam, Adam, Charles, Bran.  and then we have to consider the other wolves we know... all pretty sexy, not necessarily rank-correlated. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on September 26, 2010, 09:58:43 am
Where does Everett live? I can't find the page in MC where it lists the 5 most dominant wolves.  Maybe we'll see him in the upcomming books.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Has on September 26, 2010, 12:25:50 pm
Emerald Pack - I think its the Seattle. Check the ID Cards - there is info on side characters and werewolf structure. Its all in there :D
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kkat07 on September 27, 2010, 04:04:11 pm
Everett is the Alpha of the Houston pack, according to his ID card.  Angus is the Alpha of the Emerald pack (Seattle).
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Has on September 28, 2010, 02:43:58 am
Thanks! :P

I think I got Everett confused with the Emerald pack - it was the E's LOL
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on September 28, 2010, 03:51:43 pm
All the names can get confusing. Which makes me wonder... did it say at the end of HG who the ruler of the European packs is now that Arther is dead?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: charmed on September 28, 2010, 07:21:57 pm
Nope but feel free to speculate over in the HG thread. :)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kkat07 on September 29, 2010, 05:33:31 pm
No problem.  I got confused a few times myself until I read HG. :)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: victorymon on September 30, 2010, 04:17:23 am
dominance... reminds me of one thing: how do werewolves talk to each other when they cant look into the other wolves eyes? as a human LOL I look always into the eyes of the people
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on September 30, 2010, 07:56:55 am
dominance... reminds me of one thing: how do werewolves talk to each other when they cant look into the other wolves eyes? as a human LOL I look always into the eyes of the people

Eye contact is a communication tool, but communication functions just fine without direct eye contact.  Even among humans, we don't necessarily look someone directly in the eyes: we look at the cheeks, chin, forehead, and so on because looking someone directly in the eyes can be considered a challenge or make people uncomfortable. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on September 30, 2010, 09:51:39 am
I wonder if there are submissive - not less dominant, but truly submissive - female werewolves.
In some societies, there is very little eye contact.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on October 02, 2010, 11:41:55 am
We are having this conversation on the Shared worlds coments Female wolves, but the way I see it is that when Charles first saw Anna, he thought she was a sub.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: victorymon on October 02, 2010, 09:40:19 pm
yes. but thats just because they told her (after she woke up) that she is submissive

oh, and one more time about the eyes: yesterday I watched Avatar again and there is this scene when she told him: dont look into her eyes!
Jakes face is so funny when he tries to look at the giant...bat without looking.
Something like that must happen during wolvetalks too. that or they find out: hey, nice carpet
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on October 06, 2010, 11:29:33 am
Yes, but Charlesthought that she was submisive and he is older than most wolves
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: CarolKat on October 06, 2010, 02:05:51 pm
Yes LGW for a moment he thought she was a submissive, in the same thought he comes to the Omega conclusion. On the Prowl - Alpha&Omega pg 11
Title: Werewolf Pack Ranking and mate magic
Post by: Demonize on October 18, 2010, 09:28:52 am
In one of the mercy books Adam was challenged for pack leadership and one of the females was recognized as dominate enough to challenge the challenger and from the other books the female gets rank the same as their mates i know female mates can use the males "power" but can the male use the female's power if she is more dominate? i was just curious after all the pack problems Adam went through because i don't remember it ever happening or if it is possible.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kkat07 on October 20, 2010, 06:03:26 pm
I don't think so, because it was stated in Blood Bound that Honey takes her rank from her husband's (Peter's) position in the pack.  If she weren't mated, she would be somewhere between Warren and Paul, I think.  Wives taking their mate's rank in the pack is part of the pack magic, while unmated females being ranked at the bottom is a social convention. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: victorymon on October 20, 2010, 07:40:05 pm
and why is that so? I dont think that females are weaker than males... sometimes they are dominant.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on October 20, 2010, 08:57:25 pm
It's probably a combination of their being physically smaller and longstanding patriarchal social conventions.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: victorymon on October 21, 2010, 01:27:59 am
so its more like natural balance? behind a strong alpha-male is a strong female?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on October 21, 2010, 07:56:34 am
In nature there are plenty of species where the female is larger or in charge of the family.  Shoot, stallions protect the herd, but there's a 'lead' mare who decides things like changes of grazing, when they go to water, which way to run from predators.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on October 21, 2010, 10:48:36 am
I know this is kinda random, but it fits in with the whole woman dominance issue, some ancient civilizations were actualy ruled by women.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on October 21, 2010, 02:43:01 pm
 >D
They're all ruled by women.  Many of them are more circumspect about letting the men KNOW that they're in charge, though.  a la Charles and Anna... or Mercy and Adam... Who gets the Alpha to do what she wants, even when he doesn't want to do it?  his mate. 


If I had to guess, I would guess that Pack magic is influenced by the conventions held by the wolves.  For instance, Sam says Mercy is his Pack (which is how he borrowed energy from her) and when she protests that Pack magic doesn't work like that, he says that there has been Pack much longer than there have been ceremonies.  I don't think most of the younger wolves could have done without the ceremony, because they don't know that it could be done without the ceremony. 
Similarly, the wolves have all been taught that the flow of power is one way... maybe it doesn't have to work that way, but it can't work the other way without them collectively believing that it should. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kkat07 on October 21, 2010, 04:40:52 pm
That makes sense.  I'm going to copy that post over to the thread about female pack members if you don't mind.  It applies there as well. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Jabulani on November 05, 2010, 11:30:25 pm
Well, so he can move up in rank...isn't that how it works? you kill or beat a dominant wolf and you get their position. And why not Ben? We already know Adam, Darryl and Warren could do it no real drama there! :) Of course, Adam being weak and previously injured made that action packed BUT! if he had been 100%...there would have been no big fight, right?  I thought the fight between Paul and Mary Jo was GREAT!  And I have to say I appreciated the fact that he didn't want to hurt her. I love it when Patti goes into detail about how the pack works together, the heirachy and all that....I find it very interesting.

Hi there. I absolutely agree with you re. Patty's generous descriptions of pack dynamics. As for the way that Adam kept his alpha spot, I suspect that at least some of an alpha's position probably depends on the pack's will - I mean, if a pack didn't want a specific alpha, because of his cruelty or whatever, I could envisage the whole pack coming together to depose their alpha.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on November 06, 2010, 04:32:58 am
It sure should work that way, but since they're human at the base, it often doesn't seem to work that way, and I can give you two specific examples; Leo in Chicago, and Jean Chastel in Europe.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Ellyll on November 06, 2010, 09:10:56 am
But those are special, and quite different, cases.  Jean Chastel was like the anti-Bran: a very old, very powerful werewolf who could dominate or kill pretty much anyone around him, only Chastel was evil. 

Leo seems to have been a good pack leader/Alpha before his mate went crazy.  That probably bought him a lot of pack support, which wouldn't vanish right away.  And when things got to be that bad, he'd loaded his pack with the crazies, so I expect the pack couldn't reach a proper consensus to fight against him, or even to leave, or in any way withhold support.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on November 06, 2010, 09:17:58 am
Can anyone say "Hitler" or "Suddan Hussain"?  Same idea; if enough of them had clubbed together to bring the rabid man or werewolf down, it would have happened.  The problem is that it turns into mob rule like that.  Not easy to figure out.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on November 09, 2010, 06:00:10 pm
good speakers/dominant folks= many followers
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on November 10, 2010, 08:58:31 am
Charisma.  As in, "I don't think charisma is necessarily a good thing.  Hitler had apparently had a lot of charisma."
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: victorymon on November 10, 2010, 09:08:22 am
so what makes a good leader? or whats the difference between an officer and a normal soldier?
for what I know they got charisma, the ability to lead people and they are really smart/brave
one example is something my friend from the german Bundeswehr told me... he is an officer

on the first morning there were 30 guys, ready to make a test to be a officer. so their training-officer came, he said hello... and then he throwed a grenade at the recruits. over 20 of them jumped away within a second

the 10 guys left were able to get to the next test. everyone took a grenade, walked to a small wall (there was a slope behind the wall) and then they had to arm the grenade, then put it at the top of the small wall (somewhat over 1 meter high) and after three seconds they gave the grenade a little push

only 3 passed. and every one of them is an officer now, after a long training time

I bet werewolves have harder tests  ;) but thats fiction
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on November 10, 2010, 10:15:07 am
My point was that with or without charisma, sometimes a lack of effective leadership or cohesive...maybe courage...plain, mean/evil people can dominate a lot of good people for far longer than you would think the good folk would tolerate it, and there are a lot of reasons, beginning with the lack of effective opposing leadership, and going on to the fact that either misguided good folk, or sadistic or power hungry bad ones will flock around the bad leader and protect him or her.  Usually it's a combination of all of them.

What makes an officer?  Several things, and many of them can't be tested for short of actual combat conditions (and not all officers are or should be combat leaders, IMO, so this is a fuzzy area; I'll stick to talking about combat for now.) so it's a tough call to try & figure it out. 
First, yes, personal physical courage; the ability to assess whether the danger is such that a retreat is the best option. 
Second, the ability to make that assessment for others, and weigh; 'can we afford to lose some of the fighters to make this win, or is it a waste of lives?'
Third, the ability to get others to accept those orders.  It doesn't have to be innate, but that helps...although as pointed out earlier,
Charisma.  As in, "I don't think charisma is necessarily a good thing.  Hitler had apparently had a lot of charisma."
this is not and should not be the only/main issue.
Fourth comes training, I suspect.  Obviously, a lot of people are or become leaders without any, so it really does come low on the list.  Any military person (or corporate manager) who got a field promotion, and kept it, proves this, I think.  Napoleon supposedly said that every soldier in his armies should metaphorically carry a marshal's baton in his backpack, meaning all of them should be prepared to lead if the chain of command broke down. 
Not everyone is built for it; some of us are indians, not chiefs.  Which is good, actually, because remember the trouble that can be caused by "Too many chiefs, and not enough Indians".
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on November 10, 2010, 03:23:30 pm
Not everyone is built for it; some of us are indians, not chiefs.  Which is good, actually, because remember the trouble that can be caused by "Too many chiefs, and not enough Indians".

You're right that leadership takes many complex traits to make it work. And a person who is a good leader in certain situations, may not be an effective leader in all situations. 
And for the "Too many chiefs, not enough Indians," I am reminded of an anecdote from long ago, of a man whose daughter was applying to a prestigious college.  He was asked to write a letter including an answer to the question, "Is your son/daughter a good leader?"  and after some thought, he answered, "I do not know whether or not she is a good leader, but I know that she is an excellent follower."  The reply he received stated, "As our incoming class next year will include several hundred leaders, we congratulate ourselves that we can be assured of one good follower."

Hence the need for at least a few submissive wolves.  If EVERYONE finds it necessary to make waves, somebody's gonna drown. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on November 14, 2010, 03:45:48 pm
Nice quote Kyria. The subs also calm the dominants, which is always a good thing :)
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Marroksoul on May 10, 2011, 09:25:44 am
I'm still on page 6 so I haven't read everyting but  doesn't  Mary Jo belong to the Alpha as an unmated female
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on May 10, 2011, 09:31:50 am
Try the "Female werewolves" thread on the subject.  Theoretically, though, yes.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Marroksoul on May 10, 2011, 09:35:12 am
I'm using someting that has limited word space What exactly does the Alpha do for her/ do to her? does this really belong here
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on May 10, 2011, 09:39:27 am
Maybe look it over later when you've got greater access then?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on July 17, 2011, 02:35:42 pm
This is in belated response to Crazedcrusader's question about how the mate of a male omega would rank in a pack.
It's an interesting question, one we could have a lot of fun discussing our opinions on.

So here's mine - currently.   :D
I'm thinking that it might be good to think of the fact that an omega is a "zen alpha", and thus put the ranking quite high.  Besides the fact that the wife (just using this as a shorthand term here) might (we don't know) be able to pull on some of the omega qualities of her mate, it would be less likely she'd be bullied, making the omega have to spend less time and effort smoothing the waters at home and among the women & female weres who might have their noses put out of joint.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on July 17, 2011, 02:54:03 pm
It is a good question, maybe the wolf would be considered out of the ranking too?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on July 17, 2011, 03:38:29 pm
I just re-read this whole thread, and kept coming up with more "yeah, but" or "wait a minute, you're assuming" thoughts on various things.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 17, 2011, 07:37:31 pm
Wow, this thread just popped back up and I got to thinking about all of this again and there’s a LOT of different things brought up here, though the questions have sort of evolved too.

It seems to me that a beyond the strictest standards that Bran enforces, a lot of things probably differ to some degree from pack to pack.  Bran has certain standards that he holds his Alphas to, but also lives within those standards himself but beyond that, he doesn’t seem to micromanage.

He allowed leeway for Adam (and by extension in theory, other Alphas too) to run his (their) pack, as evidenced for one thing by his willingness to allow for Adam to make the decisions about Samuel up to a point at least since the situation was within Adam’s territory.  There were a few other examples too, he got to decide what to do, but he would have to pay the price if he was wrong about things.

Leo didn’t fit that category because he went too far beyond what was acceptable, and darn well knew it. AND he had to pay the price.

I feel like it’s important that the pack have confidence in their Alpha… and not just in his physical strength, though that doesn’t hurt either.   Really though, is there such a thing as a physically weak werewolf?

Oh, on submissive wolves, someone said it earlier that they are as strong as any wolf and often good fighters (as are Ben and Peter), just that they need a good reason to fight, and some don’t feel like fighting for pack position is all that important.  Plenty of people like that, there’s type A, type B, probably some other types then there’s reallllly laid back like Peter, though I agree that in Ben’s case it’s more that he’s scarred by his past and so easily kept ‘in his place’.   I have some thoughts about that too, but it’d be a long term thing for Ben to heal and gain enough confidence to rise in the ranks, and like Adam said, he’s got a lot of time for that.

I submit to you all that plenty of fairly dominant wolves may be able to fight their way up the ranks, but to make a good Alpha, they have that extra need to protect the pack members… all of them.  Still, Adam has had to let some fights go forward, for one thing though, weres heal quickly so it’s probably pretty rare that it’s a true fight to the death, especially if they stay in human form.

Dominant wolves may have a need to dominate others, control them in fact, but from what I’ve seen, those who are either Alpha, or near enough to it, also have that driving need to protect the members of the pack lower than themselves, and the submissives are always lower.  They control the mid range wolves who may or may not share that need to protect as strongly, so that in turn protects the submissives.  (my theory there, though most of this is)  Remember in “Hunting Ground”, someone described Chastel as an ‘anti-dominant’ (? I think?) because he was so very dominant in many ways but had no desire to protect anyone more submissive than himself.   It seems to me that in a well run pack, the submissives aren’t at all mistreated, in fact well protected.   In a poorly run or un-healthy pack like Leo’s, yeah, quite likely a bad situation to put it mildly.

I’m not going to go into the topic of how unmated females are treated by the pack Alpha, except to say that THAT probably differs from pack to pack.  Adam seems to treat them both with respect and like either his daughter or possibly a younger sister… there's been at least two instances where the pack has been spoken of as the 'children' of the Alpha...  other packs may well be very different, but don’t forget, any wolf can petition the Marrok to leave any pack, it seems to me that if an Alpha wanted to keep females within a pack, he’d need to consider things pretty carefully in this day and age.  Some may put up with a lot of things, but not all and maybe not for long.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on July 17, 2011, 07:46:48 pm
Ah, you reminded me of one of the things I'd thought of but let go earlier.  The ability to petition to leave the pack, and Leo.
First, he didn't let Anna know that was possible, and probably many of the other newer pack members. 
Second, remember that Boyd couldn't call Bran because Leo had ordered him not to?  Lots of the issues in a bad pack would be messed up under exactly the same pack magic.  It was all Boyd could do in defiance of Leo to give Bran's phone number to Anna; he couldn't even hint to her that she should call him right away.  It took the Mac crisis to get her to use it, more than a year later, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on July 17, 2011, 08:22:00 pm
I seem to remember long ago reading some research done on wolves where they measured different indicators of stress in wolves at different positions in a pack hierarchy, when they were alone and when they were with another wolf.  I don't remember which direction the stress levels moved for which wolves, but I started thinking about dominance hierarchy and the fluidity inherent in the system, which Mercy (I think) says is stabilized within the pack structure. 

In most situations, if you give a submissive individual (of any species; this goes for humans, too!) a position of power, they're going to have elevated stress response.  However, there are situations in which a normally submissive individual is capable of taking the lead and functioning as a dominant; take for instance Peter asking Mercy to override Adam's order so that he could chase that one fae (Don't remember his name.  Fideal maybe?)  because he knew how to use a sword.  He took the initiative.  But he doesn't want to keep it! 

Take a dominant individual, on the other hand.  Being in charge is stressful.  Being a natural leader forced to operate under the direction of someone who is not, is excruciating.  It really doesn't happen often, if at all.  A naturally submissive person may take initiative if it looks like they have the better tools to handle a situation, but they'll defer to the leader. 

Of course, very few are going to be naturally dominant in all situations.  Very few will be submissive all the time (and as a reminder, I'm not using submissive as a synonym for being a coward or a pushover).  Ideally, the overall leader or "Alpha" of any group will be aware of not only where people fall in the hierarchy that forms, but also when to defer to someone who is in the lower ranks. 

What fascinates me is that fluidity in the system.  It makes Patty's werewolves more three-dimensional because you can see the fluidity at work in her ranks.  Adam isn't JUST the Alpha.  He's an alpha who knows where each of his wolves' strengths lie and is willing to listen to them when they have a point.  Bran may not always like doing it, but he does it too.  Even Leo did it somewhat, when he was using Justin to control Anna, because Justin was the only one who could enjoy hurting her... because it's natural.  It's instinctive.  Humans do it, too, and it's fascinating to watch.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 17, 2011, 08:30:53 pm
True, and that's the cost in part of NOT micromanaging.  Possibly there will be more checks put in place now?  Though  that could get into territorial issues.  Yes, I know it's the Marrok, but he still seems to allow the Alpha's the respect due their position, at least to a degree and this is the states so it's innocent till proven guilty in the minds of US werewolves at least! 

Also, remember that most people seemed to think Leo was a good alpha, it was his mate's going age crazy which drove him over the edge.  (way over of course)  I think Leo slipped past the checks and balances already in place due to a mixture of circumstances, but don't see it happening frequently.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: victorymon on July 17, 2011, 08:46:32 pm
its really interesting to read all this. all inspired by books.

I think, no I know that its just like the human society. when somemon is in charge he would do everything possible to let it look good for outsiders. even if that means using brute force (as they did with Anna).
when you want to be dominant you cant show a weakspot to others, they would use it against you.
and even when you know somebody for a long time, deep inside even a wolf got that special spot. give them a chance and they cant resist.
its all a thing of  cause and effect
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on July 18, 2011, 03:33:58 am
nicely put
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 18, 2011, 04:48:31 am
Somewhat true victorymon, and though humans have social standards and laws to control exactly how far they can or will go to keep power as you say, wolves have the pack structure, custom and well, laws and social standards too.  Don't forget they also have pack magic, which we don't know everything, probably very little actually, about, I mean, it's magic right?

I actually could see some wolves shuffling their standing fairly peacefully if it makes sense to do so.  Warren and Darryl are already out of place and they both know it.  Darryl isn't comfortable with it and it only works because Warren is willing to let it work.  I'm wondering how much of his discomfort is because he wants to hold his spot, and how much is because of the need to acknowledge the dominance of warren's wolf vs the need to hold his spot.  They all care about the pack though so they're dealing with it!  It isn't all about power, there's a lot of responsibility involved too.   In the dominance fight in Silver Born, the wolves admitted where Mary Jo was in the structure without arguing overly much after all. (not I said Mary Jo's position, outside of the thing with Paul and Henry and Adam)  It seems there's a kind of comfort in knowing where you belong in there... some jockeying and shoulder bumping aside I'm sure, but still not pure battle because that's just going to eat a pack from the inside out.

Bran can and does enforce a lot of things, but like governments, cant be everywhere all the time, nor should he really.  Leo went farther than was acceptable, and paid the price eventually.  He and his mate tried to control everything they could but eventually they ran afoul of the "law" (bran and of course charles) but the downfall was because eventually some of the pack figured out a way to get word out against all odds.  That's what happens when criminals get too far out of control and it was criminal even by werewolf standards.

A boss in a company (if we think about a pack as a powerful private company with the Alpha being the CEO,) has a lot of power, hire, fire, etc, but he/she still has social and legal strictures.  Packs have them too, but on the extreme end, instead of firing, an alpha can kill... take that too far though, and the company (pack) falters if you fire (kill) too many employees (pack members)!  ...or cause other disruptions that destroy morale and company (pack) cohesion.  It may be hard for an employee (pack member) to change companies (packs), but not as impossible as Leo tried to make it, and too many pack members leaving a pack would reflect very badly on an alpha too.

In the were world, I'd be willing to bet that word gets around about how various alphas treat their pack, so while no alpha can afford to be weak, Adam has already had an impact on whether or not gay wolves are allowed in packs by having Warren there, and since he gives female pack members respect, he and others like him provide influence on that subject too.  One Leo doesn't mean all alphas are insane... well, not totally insane. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on July 22, 2011, 03:21:53 pm
remember how many Bran said a little girl would be safe with, though? (BB) Can't remember the number.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 22, 2011, 04:18:58 pm
Just a vague recollection but it seems to me it was 16?  ... it might have been 19 but I'm pretty sure it was either one of those.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on July 22, 2011, 06:09:58 pm
But how many packs need an alpha who could be trusted with a young girl?  Most young girls associated with a pack would have a werewolf dad between them and the Alpha.  And there's going to be fireworks if an Alpha tries to do anything that might harm the daughter of one of his wolves, I'd bet!  So the only cases where an Alpha has direct jurisdiction over a young girl would be 1) young female werewolves, which doesn't happen very often, or 2) Alpha with a human daughter, like Adam.  And I'd bet that most Alphas who have daughters are ueber-protective of them, while a young female werewolf would be seen by the Alpha's wolf as just another unmated female pack member.  To Be Protected, but also Useful To The Pack.  And the wolf doesn't have human ethics, right?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Ellyll on July 22, 2011, 07:06:38 pm
Yes, but I think the implication was that those Alphas wouldn't be considered safe to be trusted with many things, if even a young child can't be safe with them.  Like adult women, for example...
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Kyria on July 22, 2011, 07:30:34 pm
Yes, but there are a lot of people who don't know how to handle children who are perfectly responsible otherwise.  One might expect a lot of that sort of person in a secretive culture of brutally dangerous adults. 

I'm not saying they ARE otherwise good Alphas or responsible.  Merely that I'm not willing to rule it out.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on July 23, 2011, 06:38:14 am
Didn't Honey mention something when Kara was introduced about her old alpha not being so good?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: CarolKat on July 23, 2011, 07:12:38 am
Honey left her old pack because of some form of abuse was the impression I got.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 23, 2011, 07:35:35 am
Well, even though I know there are all kinds of reasons my line of thinking here is not going to make every thing ok, and yes, though Leo managed to force Anna into a corner, and I remember what Honey said too now that you mention it, lets not forget that once a person (male, female, young or old) is changed, they have that wolf in there to help them protect themselves, including keeping the human half safe too.  Part of what kept Anna off balance was she didn't know enough about a pack and how it is supposed to work.  True, there's a certain amount of oppression and potential for bad things happening even in a healthy pack, but the wolf IS a tough creature.

My feeling is that Leo and his pack was SO FAR from healthy that it was on the far far far end of the pendulum swing of how any pack in the States could go wrong.  If we go there, with that pack off the edge, and the distribution of other packs that are whacked on the far edges of the swing in either direction, and Bran's pack and Adam's pack, imperfect though they are as far as individuals go... they have good leadership and are pretty stable, so they are at the middle of the swing. 

Anyway, my point is that even if an Alpha is stuck in the dark ages of how females should be treated, they still have some protections by both their wolf and pack law... skewed though it may be by the Alpha's dominance as well as custom, modern wolves are going to have to settle into some new standards.  A female pack member in this day and age cannot be kept away from modern thinking on her human side, and the wolf isn't dumb either.  She may be more willing to accept pack law for herself, but she's driven to support the human half and her needs and desires too because they are so interdependent.

As younger wolves get incorporated into packs, they are going to start pushing back on some of the oldest customs etc.  Bran is trying to move things as slow as he can to keep them comfortable, but fast enough to keep them all out of trouble with modern law and civilization. too  We've seen that wolves and fae can't get away with the things they used to, and that they're going to have to adapt at least a little.  Not sure I've expressed this well enough, sorry if it's confusing.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on July 23, 2011, 07:44:38 am
I think I get it. You are saying that as younger wolves become a majority, they will push for more rights, and if they become alphas, they may be able to change the pack anyway
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 23, 2011, 07:59:50 am
yep, even Adam is young by wolf standards and he's only about 70 or so.  ... but also that even a young female has some protection in a normal pack.  Not as much as we'd think was good enough, but in a normal pack she has some standing.  Those packs other than the 19 or so that Bran said were fairly safe for Kara, are going to have to work their way closer to the middle ground.  I think it'll happen over time, I just hope they have enough time.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Ellyll on July 23, 2011, 08:51:31 am
Yes, but there are a lot of people who don't know how to handle children who are perfectly responsible otherwise.  One might expect a lot of that sort of person in a secretive culture of brutally dangerous adults. 

I'm not saying they ARE otherwise good Alphas or responsible.  Merely that I'm not willing to rule it out.

Bran's having so few wolves he could trust with a child wasn't about their not being able to handle children.  It was about their not being trusted not to violate and abuse the child.  Two completely different problems. 
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on July 23, 2011, 09:08:31 am
What I want to know... they said Bran was in charge of appointing Alpas. If they aren'y good with women/kids, why did he appoint them?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 23, 2011, 10:26:51 am
I don't think he appoints them.  He doesn't micromanage the packs.  Any Alpha who rises to the position must bow to him or risk a visit by him and probably then be forced to either bow or die because he is as dominant as he is, but they must rise on their own, and hold their pack on their own.  Once they do, he has some say so, but not so much that he can dictate everything in their pack.  He can probably sway things the way he wants them to but not dictate. 

Like with Adam and what went on in his pack, or an officer in the military.  He answers to the higher command when things go wrong, but as long as he maintains standards and control, he is in charge.  It's not perfect, but Bran can't be everywhere at all times.  He needs to manage, not dictate.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: gryphon340 on July 23, 2011, 11:12:09 am
Not Manage but Lead big big difference
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: DandelionWine on July 23, 2011, 11:14:34 am
Bit of both I suspect gryphon!  Wolves are big on dominance and force, the human half respects the leader, the wolf half demands some real dominance.  I think Bran is up to that challenge though.  IMO he's well aware of both needs.  But yeah leading is more important to the modern human half, even if there's some push needed from the wolf half.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: gryphon340 on July 23, 2011, 11:44:52 am
Sorta like Ike vs Patton vs Monty vs Bradley vs Powell
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on July 23, 2011, 12:07:45 pm
I just found this over in "Ask Patty:  Answered", and I've bolded the part about how females are treated in general:

Good question.  Why does anyone put up with abuse?  The answer is usually that they are conditioned to it, expect it, and think they deserve it.

Anna didn't have any way to fight back.  She had no allies and could not go up against the rest of the pack (and remember, part of what makes an Omega an Omega is that they are mostly nonviolent -- unless someone she cares about is threatened).  She was brainwashed, beaten over and over again, and raped in a deliberate attempt to break her -- because Leo knew that as an Omega she was all but immune to the normal controls an Alpha/dominant has over his pack.  So he had to establish his control a different way.  She knew that she was a monster, something extremely dangerous -- and her pack was the only source of information on how to live with it that she had.  She's told that her life is what every unmated female were goes through (and in some places, not under Bran's jurisdiction, that really is the way the females live).

She also knew that anyone she told would be killed, whoever they were.  Going to the police was not an option, as she never knew when she would be watched -- and she was afraid that all she would accomplish is to get a lot of police officers killed.  She wasn't willing to risk someone else's life.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: little gray wolf on July 23, 2011, 12:27:02 pm
Thanks, Patti
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on July 23, 2011, 12:32:18 pm
I just bumbled across it when I saw someone looking at/printing out the Q&A, and followed the link.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: SilverTreeSpirit on May 06, 2018, 07:56:06 am
wolves and the military,

Branches:
Navy/Marines: no wolves in these branches, to much water and time on ships.
Army: perfered
Air Force: possible but what self respecting wolf would be in the AF... thats just silly

discuss

EDIT: edited spelling in title, charmed, books mod

Even though saberhack has been deleted from the forum, I wanted to bring back the military aspect of this discussion, and he is the first to mention the other branches of the military.
I think that weres would fit in fine with the Air Force. A were might be able to handle the G-forces that a human can't. The air force could build special fast planes only for were pilots to fly. Also, I can see a were flying a Comanche or such helicopter: he could probably survive a crash landing with rockets and bullets hitting the helicopter (much better than a normal human would). There is also the use of commando paratrooper weres; they could all morph into their wolf forms to sneak behind enemy lines, but that would present some problems for them. The best bet would be having one or two in wolf form and act as scouts.

Army: I believe that there has been enough input for here. However, I'm not sure weres would fit in as tank drivers or gun shooters. They would be wasted in that position. I can see them as being Army Rangers and snipers, probably perfect for the sniper role. They can find the target behind enemy lines, fire, and leave as a wolf (given enough distance from the target). They would not need to worry about their sight getting worse as they age, so, they could become near perfect with age and experience. This means they would be invaluable to the military.

I hope someone else with the military background can add more to this.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: victorymon on May 06, 2018, 08:05:40 am
I remember in one of the books the statement was that werewolves do diving because of the thrill.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: SilverTreeSpirit on May 06, 2018, 08:22:17 am
That would fit in with weres being paratroopers, partially. I would not want to keep jumping out of a plane at atmosphere heights. One day my shoot might not pop open and have me float down. It has happened, just rarely, but I would not want to be the rare person it happens to. But I digress, doing it for the thrill shows little to no fear of those heights which you need to be a paratrooper.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on May 06, 2018, 08:56:09 am
Depending on the fall, a chute (not shoot) not opening might be fatal. That's why (I believe) in the US a reserve chute is mandatory. 

Pilots who could stand high G-forces would have an advantage, true... But as for weres not being gunners, or tank drivers, I don't know.  Some of those guns take a lot of muscle to wrestle.  Or, you get a whole tank crew of weres, that tank gets stuck, and they can muscle it out of the spot!  LOL
Sniping - I don't think eye sight is that much better, and just because you're fast or strong, it doesn't mean you'd shoot more accurately. The average werewolf needs 15-30 minutes to change shape, so getaway wouldn't be fast, and they'd either be abandoning the weapon, or carrying it in their mouths - not conducive to breathing well while running, and it spreads the profile so they can't fit through narrow spaces - or trying to find a way to get it onto a harness they can shrug into after changing shape - with all the tender skin issues they have after shifting either way.  I don't honestly think it would be that much help, unless you're thinking instead "shoot, grab gun and run at human shaped werewolf speed to an unlikely hiding place, then bundle weapon and clothing into backpack/harness, change shape and lay -heh- doggo until the change tenderness has passed, then leave in wolf shape."  I'm not sure that would be very effective.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: BillG on May 07, 2018, 02:45:52 am
I don't think it's a great idea to have were's in the military. Their speed, strength and rapid recovery from wounds would not offset the occasional internecine violence and the need to go furry every four weeks.
That point made, I'd like to bring back the point that it is not necessary to have a parachute to jump out of an airplane.
It's only necessary if you want to do it twice.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: SilverTreeSpirit on May 07, 2018, 05:42:26 am
I'm thinking that tanks are still vulnerable to missile strikes and from enemy aircraft. There is no way you would survive an explosion from inside a "box". The ability to pull your tank out of a mess would be good. But weres would better handle a missile strike, or artillery shells, from out in the open ground. There would be no compressed explosion to kill them, like in a tank.
Weres would be good for handling heavy machine guns, and they would be able to control the heavy recoil.
They might be even capable of handling a .50 caliber Gatling Gun, spewing 1,300 rounds per minute.
Back to snipers. The were's strength and speed would be an asset to handle heavy sniper rifles, like the one used to pierce tanks with. Don't forget, they could handle more ammunition, too.
Eyes change as they get older. The lenses change shape, or we ruin the nerves/receptors in our eyes, by watching tv or computer screens in poor lighting, by watching screens too close to the eyes, and by rubbing our eyes with our fingers. Weres should not have a problem healing their eyes naturally. Weres, have the advantage of quickly running to different areas to set up sniper posts to cover their military buddies.

BillG, the weres could be considered special forces with specific limitations. I'm sure the military would find a way around the weres being moon called every four weeks. Although, i'm not sure how it would be done in engagements in enemy territory that last longer than 4 weeks. However, they can use packpower magic to make themselves only noticeable as big dogs. I think Mercy was able to use packpowers to make herself less noticeable when she was in Prague in Silence Fallen.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on May 07, 2018, 06:10:07 am
Ain't nobody surviving explosion inside a box, that's the point of causing them.  You know, "enemy fire"?
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: SilverTreeSpirit on May 07, 2018, 06:32:34 am
Ain't nobody surviving explosion inside a box, that's the point of causing them.  You know, "enemy fire"?
:) I'm implying that tanks would be a poor occupation, and hazardous, for weres, even with the possibility of them being able to move their tank out of a tough spot.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Patti L. on May 07, 2018, 05:38:03 pm
Same for non-weres, is what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: pondhawk on May 08, 2018, 07:53:12 am
What she said.
Title: Re: Rank, dominance, Alphas, & the military
Post by: Grandpappy Wycked on December 28, 2018, 09:12:09 am
Weres would be good for handling heavy machine guns, and they would be able to control the heavy recoil.
They might be even capable of handling a .50 caliber Gatling Gun, spewing 1,300 rounds per minute.
Back to snipers. The were's strength and speed would be an asset to handle heavy sniper rifles, like the one used to pierce tanks with. Don't forget, they could handle more ammunition, too.

I am not going to get into the Logistics of outfitting a small crew of Were's with a GAU. But I will point out that 1,000 rounds of .50BMG, not counting the weight of the boxes, nor the belts, is 261lbs. The U.S. Military already has the M2, but generally the .30 Caliber Machine Guns are more manageable in the scenario you are trying to paint. Vehicle mounted weapons are vehicle mounted due more to the Logistics of the Ammo, than they are the weapon itself. The light version of the GAU for instance is 106lbs, not counting the battery pack used to spin the barrels. The M2 weighs 83lbs and doesn't need Battery packs. But that ammo, still weighs 261lbs per 1,000 rounds.

Were's as Snipers...This falls under the Special Forces purview. All of the things that would make Were's good for Special Forces would also make them Good Snipers. But there is more to being a Sniper than just hauling heavy equipment. The Were's temperaments for instance. That high aggression does not help a Sniper. That short temper, does not help a Sniper. Snipers are not just for shooting things long distance. They are information gatherers. Scouting and Observation is the much bigger scope of what a Sniper does for the military. Long hours staying in one place keeping eyes on an enemy. How do you keep that Sniper fed in the field? How long can a Were go on Light Field Rations if he can't shift to forage for the food he needs to keep his Wolf content? How well could the Man do his job if he is constantly fighting his Hungry Wolf? Then add in the solitude. Sure, you will have the one off Lone Wolf who is probably top of the charts in the Sniper gig, but he or she will be the rare exception. So rare, they may not even exist for other reasons. Their already Anti-Social behavior for instance may have prevented them from passing Psyche eval for example.

There is a lot bigger picture to take in when it comes to figuring out Military positions and equipment uses. There are tasks that we can think of that at first blush would scream "A Were would be awesome as this!" and then, the Logistics of the Full Expanse of the job or task settles in and..."Okay, so a Were isn't really an advantage."

Sure, there will be things a Were will always be able to execute better in the short term, but it is the long game that might bite them and make them stumble, especially when it comes to Military Logistics.

In the General Special Forces Roles, Were's would be an advantage, no questions there. It is just, we have to look really close at the full job when it comes to some of the more Specialized roles personnel play in Military service. If we ignore the Oxymoron that is Military Intelligence, I can assure you, there is someone, somewhere in the Military Think Tank of Mercy's World that is thinking up Specialized Operations that are based around what they know of Were's and their Abilities and how best to Exploit them on a Mission by Mission basis.